Scamming G16 service - bannable?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not missing that point. I have stated multiple times PWE should ban/take action, even in what you quoted that I assume you didn't read.
I just dont think people taking risky shortcuts should get their stuff back. They are taking advantage of the ToS to go outside legitimate trade systems and expect to be protected and have PWE babysit them.

As for ebay, grocery stores and the like....really?
You don't buy your groceries from someone on the street. You buy from an employee of that company, with a transaction system in place...much like, oh I don't know...the trade window system in PWI? Valid ways of having transactions with strangers.
eBay has warnings telling you to not go outside their transaction system. To not deal with people outside legitimate means. If you make a deal with a seller outside of the ebay site and you get screwed, do you think eBay will still help you? All those sites have systems in place, much like PWI has valid systems in place.
This is what people are doing...going outside the legit means and using a shortcut and still expect to be protected.
PWI should make a alteration in their ToS somewhere stating the same thing. If you use means outside of valid, in game systems, you are not protected.

I do agree they should add this to their terms of service, but until then, they are obligated to deal with this issue. As for the mold and badge selling, it doesn't go against terms of service, despite the intention of the mats being bound. Not only for G16 gears, but things like Supply tokens, Wing Mats for the Wings of Ascension, and a few other bound things.

The buying and selling of gold outside AH operates diferrently than presumed. You are basically selling someone something from the boutique at an agreed gold price, not the gold itself. I see nothing wrong with this as it can be benificial to the buying and the seller. You then procceed to trade the items for the agreed price through the trade window.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Crafting services aren't "bypassing" the the trade window, the trade is still conducted through it. It's just a multi-step process.

The trade window, as intended, would have the people put up the items and coin and both agree. Breaking it into multi-steps for g16 mold/badge sellers is the problem.
One person has to hand over everything and agree to do so, then hope the other person is trustworthy enough to give the finished product back, or not **** them with a duplicate and saving better stats (having a sin with sight on hand prevents this tho)
if you have a legitimate g16 mold seller, there should be no problem with having collateral given to the person handing over the mats. While sadly it hasn't been the case, this should have become the norm for legitimate and honest g16 mold/badge sellers.
I can think of other solutions PWE could implement, but I wouldnt expect any of them as it is a loophole in the bound mat system of warsong/lunar. But something as simple as collateral could save alot of headaches and loss, on the player part of fixing this.

DaSquirrel - Sanctuary

Personally I find it pretty sad that scammers can get away with this sort of thing. I think all scammers should get a life ban, would make perfect world a much better experiance for players.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

ovenusarmanio

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The trade window, as intended, would have the people put up the items and coin and both agree. Breaking it into multi-steps for g16 mold/badge sellers is the problem.
One person has to hand over everything and agree to do so, then hope the other person is trustworthy enough to give the finished product back, or not **** them with a duplicate and saving better stats (having a sin with sight on hand prevents this tho)
if you have a legitimate g16 mold seller, there should be no problem with having collateral given to the person handing over the mats. While sadly it hasn't been the case, this should have become the norm for legitimate and honest g16 mold/badge sellers.
I can think of other solutions PWE could implement, but I wouldnt expect any of them as it is a loophole in the bound mat system of warsong/lunar. But something as simple as collateral could save alot of headaches and loss, on the player part of fixing this.

If you were not meant to sell crafting services the trade window would require other items to be traded the same way that the catshop requires you to pass on the listed price before you can trade over. The fact that from the ground up they put one system that requires you to give something and one that doesn't, which obviously allows us to sell crafting, have encouraged us in the past to sell our crafting services, and have returned lost items to people who had them scammed tells us it is unreasonable to call anyone buying crafting services "exploiters," and thus they lost their items through authorized gameplay. The TOS tell us that it's against the rules to take those items so obviously victims have a reasonable expectation that PWE will enforce it's TOS and deal with these people and maybe give them their items back. Whether or not you consider them stupid for not taking collateral is totally irrelevant as the design decision to allow items to be traded without it means regardless if it's there or not, the items were passed on through legitimate means.

PWE wouldn't have facilitated this since crafting began. This isn't new to g16. People have been trading mats to people who have crafting skills for years and years. Since at least 2009 (I wasn't here since 2008 but I cannot imagine it was a new feature back then) They specifically designed the trade window to facilitate this practice so that you can trade without having to take anything in return. They did not NEED To design an entirely DIFFERENT system for player trade that was similar to trading in a catshop. The biggest difference between the two is that trading allows you to give players stuff without them having to give anything in return. That's why they designed TWO different systems. This isn't a bug, this isn't an exploit. It is an intentional design decision to make it easy for players to sell crafting services.

Again, your personal opinions about collateral should not matter. That's your personal opinion. The facts of the matter is that pw designed a trade system specifically for being able to trade each other without trading anything else in return. Encouraged selling crafting services for years. And returned player items for years. Just because they've reduced support in ALL aspects doesn't mean this one specific thing has had a policy change.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Crygol - Sanctuary wrote: »

Is it bannable offense to steal items through selling G16 services? Since you make a promise that for X amount of coin you will craft their G15 item into G16 it should be bannable imo. In Sanctuary we have a guy who has been doing this for weeks (over a month maybe? idk). I wonder if he hasn't been reported yet or really PWI don't care about such things?

I won't say the scammer should be doing what he is doing cause it's wrong, but if he's scamming with the same thing for over a month how in the world people fall for it?

People get scam cause they are stupid, before letting any random selling you a crafting service you should ask around if the person can be trust, ask in your faction, ask in world chat, if he's going around like that for over a month people should know about him, I assume people world chat calling him a scammer and warning people to don't trust him and yet this is going since over a month? Sanctuary have a ton of stupid people I guess. Personally I would not just trade away my gears/weapon to some random guy in the wc, I would ask him to put something (an item of same value or directly coins) in the trade that I can hold while he's crafting and I give it back (+ the money for the crafting service) when he trade me back my item, if he refuse to trade me something then I won't do it with him and will wait to find someone else.

Also people are so naive that they probably didn't SS the convo thinking they can trust the person and after that they have no proof that it was a scam, the scammer can just say that the person did give him the items as a gift or w/e.

My Advices?

-Ask around if the person can be trust, ask in world chat and faction chat.

-Ask the crafting seller to trade you an item of same value or the amount of coins that worth your item as guarantee at the SAME time that you trade him your item, so that way you will keep the scammers away or at least you will lose nothing.

-SS the convo with the seller, SS the trade as well. If you have no SS you will have no proof of the scam if you send a ticket.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If you were not meant to sell crafting services the trade window would require other items to be traded the same way that the catshop requires you to pass on the listed price before you can trade over. The fact that from the ground up they put one system that requires you to give something and one that doesn't, which obviously allows us to sell crafting, have encouraged us in the past to sell our crafting services, and have returned lost items to people who had them scammed tells us it is unreasonable to call anyone buying crafting services "exploiters," and thus they lost their items through authorized gameplay. The TOS tell us that it's against the rules to take those items so obviously victims have a reasonable expectation that PWE will enforce it's TOS and deal with these people and maybe give them their items back. Whether or not you consider them stupid for not taking collateral is totally irrelevant as the design decision to allow items to be traded without it means regardless if it's there or not, the items were passed on through legitimate means.

PWE wouldn't have facilitated this since crafting began. This isn't new to g16. People have been trading mats to people who have crafting skills for years and years. Since at least 2009 (I wasn't here since 2008 but I cannot imagine it was a new feature back then) They specifically designed the trade window to facilitate this practice so that you can trade without having to take anything in return. They did not NEED To design an entirely DIFFERENT system for player trade that was similar to trading in a catshop. The biggest difference between the two is that trading allows you to give players stuff without them having to give anything in return. That's why they designed TWO different systems. This isn't a bug, this isn't an exploit. It is an intentional design decision to make it easy for players to sell crafting services.

Again, your personal opinions about collateral should not matter. That's your personal opinion. The facts of the matter is that pw designed a trade system specifically for being able to trade each other without trading anything else in return. Encouraged selling crafting services for years. And returned player items for years. Just because they've reduced support in ALL aspects doesn't mean this one specific thing has had a policy change.

Love how I'm being told my opinion doesn't matter, but you treat yours as fact.
Its your opinion that trade window was specifically designed to bypass a bound mat system, years before it was even implemented. Or for craft-selling at all. I can think of a long list of other reasons for the trade window, none of which involve any craft selling, nevermind the one-sided g16 bound mat selling (which wasnt the case with 2008 craft selling)......but since it's opinion, it doesnt matter. PWE's own wishy washy stance show its not so clear cut.
Anyway, when a debate and discussion turns into what this just did, its time to back out. Enjoy!

ovenusarmanio

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Love how I'm being told my opinion doesn't matter, but you treat yours as fact.
Its your opinion that trade window was specifically designed to bypass a bound mat system, years before it was even implemented. Or for craft-selling at all. I can think of a long list of other reasons for the trade window, none of which involve any craft selling, nevermind the one-sided g16 bound mat selling (which wasnt the case with 2008 craft selling)......but since it's opinion, it doesnt matter. PWE's own wishy washy stance show its not so clear cut.
Anyway, when a debate and discussion turns into what this just did, its time to back out. Enjoy!

I'm not saying your entire opinion is invalid or that mine is fact. Sorry if you took it that way, but that isn't what I meant. Only that whether or not someone is "stupid," or "should've got collateral" is an opinion and personal opinions about the intelligence of another person has no place in rule enforcement. You don't hear judges say well you found your car seller on craigslist so I've decided this isn't a crime and you're stupid so they don't owe you money. It's can you prove it happen? How much damages can you prove? The intelligence of the person, or what protective steps they ought to take to protect themselves, is up for personal debate and there is no right or wrong answer on that. But it shouldn't effect rule enforcement. Rules are supposed to be objective. What I did say was fact was the narrow thigns listed there, which is that we were encouraged in the past. They created a system specifically so we can trade things without having to trade things back. And that they did return items for years under certain circumstances. Those three things are facts and not opinions but that doesn't mean my overall opinion is fact or that yours isn't valid. That's not what I was trying to say. I'm just saying to look at the objective facts.

I also didn't say that they created it for bound mat selling. Only that it was most it was almost certainly created to make craft selling easier. Craft selling was massive back then. It was a much more important feature than it is now. I know because I used to make TT stuff for people all the time. They'd hand over their items and I'd craft it for them and give it back. PWE encouraged this and did return items from people who ran off with it if you could prove it. They are spotty now but they are spotty about everything now. They left people stuck in BH79 from Friday through Monday. That's certainly not policy. They have flat out said they reduced staff because they are understaffed. They didn't even have a anniversary website. We went months without a CM. What they are doing now can't really be used to determine policy because it's too sporadic and bad on every front.

Other types of trade can easily be done through a catshop. The only type of trade that doesn't really work with catshop is craft selling and trading to alts. One of which PW was extremely hostile towards, and while they softened towards that, have become increasingly more hostile towards again with more and more things character bound. Since they were actively discouraging it prior to TB and even had people trying to find remote locations to drop their items, we can safely say that can't be the reason. No designer is going to create a separate trade interface to help people do something that they don't want them to do.

PW did state the reasons the mats were bound, it was to make APS less effective. The expansion that came with and some of other expansions were specifically announced to be explicitly to make APS less effective. It wasn't to discourage craft-selling and indeed the same exact method people have been using to sell crafting services since years is the same method used to sell it now.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

I dont think there should be any action taken against those worthless players. It's not like they put a Gun to your head and rob you of your stuff, They played a mental mindgame with you with hopes of better things to come. A burglar sneaks into your house and steal your things, generally without you knowing, This will more than likely land the burglar in jail. However, if you were home when he snuck in, and he said " Give me your stuff and i will keep it safe for you" And you were stupid enough to give it to them, Dont expect the police to do anything about it. These users are praying on the stupidity of the mass population of the server. Exploiting someone's stupidity isnt bannable. You agree'd to hand Your items over to them. Even if they did Lie, and Lieing to another user isnt bannable. It's kind of a shame really, because the real players who try and make a little extra coin are looked at as a possible scammer. But In short, i agree with some of the things i've been reading so far, Dont give your items over. Or at least when they get stolen, dont expect pwi to do anything about it. Not their fault.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Bad analogy. A better one would be:

You bring you car to the garage to get a sun roof installed on it.
Next day you come back to pick up your car, the salesman sais "FU, car is now mine"

ovenusarmanio

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont think there should be any action taken against those worthless players. It's not like they put a Gun to your head and rob you of your stuff, They played a mental mindgame with you with hopes of better things to come. A burglar sneaks into your house and steal your things, generally without you knowing, This will more than likely land the burglar in jail. However, if you were home when he snuck in, and he said " Give me your stuff and i will keep it safe for you" And you were stupid enough to give it to them, Dont expect the police to do anything about it. These users are praying on the stupidity of the mass population of the server. Exploiting someone's stupidity isnt bannable. You agree'd to hand Your items over to them. Even if they did Lie, and Lieing to another user isnt bannable. It's kind of a shame really, because the real players who try and make a little extra coin are looked at as a possible scammer. But In short, i agree with some of the things i've been reading so far, Dont give your items over. Or at least when they get stolen, dont expect pwi to do anything about it. Not their fault.

The action itself of taking the items is definitely bannable. It says right in the TOS that scamming is unacceptable. Those people are looked as scammers because they are scammers. They deserve the bad reputation they get and they deserve to be banished from the game for breaking their legal agreement. They didn't win anything through mental mind games, there is nothing clever about it. It's an obvious scam. If anyone actually pats their back over it, then I'm willing to be they'd also brag about their "physical prowess," after taking candy from a baby. It's honestly a pretty pathetic way to get the gear. And I wouldn't compare them to legitimate sellers. They are not both robbers. One is legitimate.

alexanade

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Exploiting someone's stupidity isnt bannable.

i remember back in the day when pwi had the "coin sellers" issue , some ppl got banned for buying , so..basing me in ur opinion... pwe was unfair to them? pwe need to lift the ban status?

b:byeb:thanks

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

The action itself of taking the items is definitely bannable. It says right in the TOS that scamming is unacceptable. Those people are looked as scammers because they are scammers. They deserve the bad reputation they get and they deserve to be banished from the game for breaking their legal agreement. They didn't win anything through mental mind games, there is nothing clever about it. It's an obvious scam. If anyone actually pats their back over it, then I'm willing to be they'd also brag about their "physical prowess," after taking candy from a baby. It's honestly a pretty pathetic way to get the gear. And I wouldn't compare them to legitimate sellers. They are not both robbers. One is legitimate.

this ^

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

The action itself of taking the items is definitely bannable. It says right in the TOS that scamming is unacceptable. Those people are looked as scammers because they are scammers. They deserve the bad reputation they get and they deserve to be banished from the game for breaking their legal agreement. They didn't win anything through mental mind games, there is nothing clever about it. It's an obvious scam. If anyone actually pats their back over it, then I'm willing to be they'd also brag about their "physical prowess," after taking candy from a baby. It's honestly a pretty pathetic way to get the gear. And I wouldn't compare them to legitimate sellers. They are not both robbers. One is legitimate.

It's an obvious scam you said, Yet the Player who got scammed Knew this, and Still gave them their G15 gear Anyway. Thats the exploiting the masses stupidity i was referring to, PWI has to Draw the line at SOME point, the player has to do their part as well and possess wisdom. Obvious scam, Yet you still give them your gear and surprise! Gear stolen. Now How is that pwi's fault. Be reasonable here Help pwi Help you. Dont Hand over gear and think pwi is going to have your back if it goes sour over a situation that could have 100% Been avoided. Why Chose to be a victim. Why give your gear to the player in the first place. Dont want to get Bitten by a shark? Dont go inside Shark infested waters with an open wound. Dont wanna get scammed? Dont hand over gear, PWI cant do everything, some things goes without saying. At least is my observation. The same goes with Account ****, or gear loss. Dont give out your password to your boyfriend or girlfriend or to the person who you just know could "Never" do you any wrong. It's a avoidable situation.


PS: Also, They never stole or taken any of the items, The user willingly handed them over to the worthless scammer. I still think this who thing has One easy fix to the Problem. But you get it by now~

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

The action itself of taking the items is definitely bannable.

Saying it as you say will just encourage people to trust any random thinking that ''if he don't give back I'll get him ban'' and it's not how it work, PWI lack of staff, the staff lack of experience, judgement and knowledge of their own rules, just check how much more and more players come on the forum saying they got as ticket answer to post on the forum while there's nothing on the forum that can be done about their issues. Players should know that if they give an item away they do it at their risk and should not do it, unless the seller give something to the buyer to hold during the crafting so that way the seller will get no profit from scamming that person.

You can't guarantee at 100% that the scammers will get ban.

Log one of your char, pm people saying ''hey nice fash, mind to let me try it please?'' until an idiot say yes and don't give it back, I'm pretty sure at 99% that even if the person report you, you won't get ban. They will tell the player that he shouldn't lend items that he cares about to other players.

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

seller give something to the buyer to hold during the crafting so that way the seller will get no profit from scamming that person.

b:victory Best idea so far I did that with my Boots when they were my last piece I needed and I was lazy to level up tailor 1 level b:laugh

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Log one of your char, pm people saying ''hey nice fash, mind to let me try it please?'' until an idiot say yes and don't give it back, I'm pretty sure at 99% that even if the person report you, you won't get ban. They will tell the player that he shouldn't lend items that he cares about to other players. [/COLOR]

I also borrow fashion from people and mounts b:laugh and even told em If you want em back just PM me and I'll return in trade or Mail if your busy / AFK so I'm well trusted also.. "TwerkyStar POWER"

_MonoxidE_ - Sanctuary

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

I hope your home will get broken into. And that the burglar leaves a note for you: "I'm teaching you a valuable lesson to make sure you protect your property. Have a nice day."

Seriously.

People do need to protect their property. best way to do that is to be more secure and cautious. Never put trust in someone you don't know. Never accept cotton candy from a clown just because he smiles at you and makes funny noises. Because he could stab you in the back after you let your guard down. Never assume anything. Anyone could be a thief. But nobody would tell a thief that they trust them to not break in their house. Find a friend and have them do for you rather than a stranger.

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide

_MonoxidE_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Never accept cotton candy from a clown just because he smiles at you and makes funny noises. Because he could stab you in the back after you let your guard down. Never assume anything.

b:chuckle to many Horror Movies for you!

Verenor - Morai

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Bad analogy. A better one would be:

You bring you car to the garage to get a sun roof installed on it.
Next day you come back to pick up your car, the salesman sais "FU, car is now mine"

With that spot-on analogy this thread could learn a thing or 2. It seems that almost all following posters since my last one here have been battling Venus into making the scams sound legal/deserved.
A scam is a scam, nomatter on what platform, no matter in real life or virtual. ToS states bright as day it's illegal and upon playing the game you agreed to those rules.
So nomatter how you look at it, no matter how trade-window was intended and no matter how gullible the other player was: selling craftservice only to run away with the items is scamming, illegal, and a bannable offense.
Whether or not PWI actually enforces it is a different topic but they should, in order to keep the game a fun timespender.

ovenusarmanio

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Saying it as you say will just encourage people to trust any random thinking that ''if he don't give back I'll get him ban'' and it's not how it work, PWI lack of staff, the staff lack of experience, judgement and knowledge of their own rules, just check how much more and more players come on the forum saying they got as ticket answer to post on the forum while there's nothing on the forum that can be done about their issues. Players should know that if they give an item away they do it at their risk and should not do it, unless the seller give something to the buyer to hold during the crafting so that way the seller will get no profit from scamming that person.

You can't guarantee at 100% that the scammers will get ban.

Log one of your char, pm people saying ''hey nice fash, mind to let me try it please?'' until an idiot say yes and don't give it back, I'm pretty sure at 99% that even if the person report you, you won't get ban. They will tell the player that he shouldn't lend items that he cares about to other players.

I did already state that staff has been inconsistent several times. They even left people in BH79 recently from Friday through Sunday. And yes people have submitted tickets and we had even contacted them. They didn't even put up an anniversary website. But there is a difference between what is actually happening, and what is in the rules and thus the way it ought to be happening. Scamming is still a bannable offense. They did not change that rule. They just suck about enforcing it lately. But they aren't providing good service in any area, so we can't say it's because they want to change the rule.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's an obvious scam you said, Yet the Player who got scammed Knew this, and Still gave them their G15 gear Anyway. Thats the exploiting the masses stupidity i was referring to, PWI has to Draw the line at SOME point, the player has to do their part as well and possess wisdom. Obvious scam, Yet you still give them your gear and surprise! Gear stolen. Now How is that pwi's fault. Be reasonable here Help pwi Help you. Dont Hand over gear and think pwi is going to have your back if it goes sour over a situation that could have 100% Been avoided. Why Chose to be a victim. Why give your gear to the player in the first place. Dont want to get Bitten by a shark? Dont go inside Shark infested waters with an open wound. Dont wanna get scammed? Dont hand over gear, PWI cant do everything, some things goes without saying. At least is my observation. The same goes with Account ****, or gear loss. Dont give out your password to your boyfriend or girlfriend or to the person who you just know could "Never" do you any wrong. It's a avoidable situation.


PS: Also, They never stole or taken any of the items, The user willingly handed them over to the worthless scammer. I still think this who thing has One easy fix to the Problem. But you get it by now~

There are children on this game, people with mental illnesses and disabilities people who are so vulnerable that in our society they aren't permitted to take care of themselves. I don't consider it clever to convince a child to let you hold his toy. It's like taking candy from a baby. But go ahead and be impressed by the "mental prowess," of people who are too dumb to figure out how to easily get g15 gear and not have to worry about reputation. A lot of scammers do end up leaving the game even if they aren't banned because they get a bad reputation and so encounter player black lash. All because they aren't smart enough to figure out how to get a cheap g15 weapons without ripping someone off and have to take advantage of people who are vulnerable, stupid, or simply just experience a lapse in judgement. But far be it from me to tell you what to find impressive. You'll have to forgive me though for being completely unimpressed.

P.S. Yes it is stealing. Scamming is theft in every sense of the word. That weapon didn't belong to you. You entered a verbal contract. Try applying your theory to the real world though and see what a judge says to you. There is a reason that **** is bannable in games and illegal in real life.

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

With that spot-on analogy this thread could learn a thing or 2. It seems that almost all following posters since my last one here have been battling Venus into making the scams sound legal/deserved.
A scam is a scam, nomatter on what platform, no matter in real life or virtual. ToS states bright as day it's illegal and upon playing the game you agreed to those rules.
So nomatter how you look at it, no matter how trade-window was intended and no matter how gullible the other player was: selling craftservice only to run away with the items is scamming, illegal, and a bannable offense.
Whether or not PWI actually enforces it is a different topic but they should, in order to keep the game a fun timespender.

Quoted for the truth

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

With that spot-on analogy this thread could learn a thing or 2. It seems that almost all following posters since my last one here have been battling Venus into making the scams sound legal/deserved.
A scam is a scam, nomatter on what platform, no matter in real life or virtual. ToS states bright as day it's illegal and upon playing the game you agreed to those rules.
So nomatter how you look at it, no matter how trade-window was intended and no matter how gullible the other player was: selling craftservice only to run away with the items is scamming, illegal, and a bannable offense.
Whether or not PWI actually enforces it is a different topic but they should, in order to keep the game a fun timespender.

There is No scam if there is No gear handed over.
Also, Dont stick your hand inside of a airplane exhaust pipe and blame the exhaust pipe for takeing your hand off.

Dont want a Thief to walk off with your stuff? Dont give it to them. A thief will always be a thief, and there will always be at least one in every society. PWI cant possibly get Rid of ALL the thieves. Do your part too. If The action of accepting someone's gear after they traded it to you was bannable then PWI would have lost alot of players by now. Think about it. Go on any server, The G16 Crafting services are Not hard to find, their not hiding. The GM's see them. Despite what people in wc may claim, the gm's do exist.

Also, @venus,

Even if i never read this thread, Ask for My gear Right now, You wont get it. Scam avoided.Problem Fixed. I've never been scammed once in my entire time in perfect world because i use my brain.People with mental disabilities that are so bad that it impairs them to see though an obvious scam such as this one probably wouldn't have made it past the password verification to create the account.It's not like actual Legally **** people play. i do think it's pathetic that the scammers Dont know how easy the G15 Gear is to get, and it's not worth a loss in reputation,i mean, a few nation wars and Bam there it is. TT99. and then TT99 to G15 within One nation war. But it's always going to be some people who takes the easy way out. It's human nature. But it's not stealing. The judge would ask "Why in the hell did you give it to them anyway?"

@wannabeBM, I Don't really like you, so i've been trying to ignore your post, But that Analogy, Its more that goes into it then that, i live in NC right now, It's a car mechanic shop down the street, the name is Macco, This shop has commercials on tv, and is a Legal business. If i took my gear to them, Chances are, im getting it back. However, If Some random guy Ask me to Let HIM drive my car to macco, chances I wouldnt be getting it back, With that being said, The Forge NPC itself is Macco, and the worthless G16 scammer would be the guy who wanted to "Drive my car to macco" I Could have avoided by car getting Stolen by not handing it to the complete stranger. Take your G15 Gear to the forge yourself AFK Drive your car to the machanic Yourself instead of letting someone taking it there for you.


Op can you fix this post for meh

WannaBM - Archosaur

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@wannabeBM, I Don't really like you, so i've been trying to ignore your post

Haha, thats good. Most ******* dont like me because im not shy about pointing out retardedness and in this threads case horrific morals.

So ill ignore the rest of your post

It really does make me a bit sad sometimes to see people defending bad morals like here. Didnt your parents teach you anything ?

That said, i am not expecting PWI to invest lots of time to investigate who is a scammer they need to ban. Yes i need to take care and not give my stuff to any random person. But that doesnt make it not a scam, not a theft and not horribly immoral to do it.

_Grandpa - Raging Tide

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is No scam if there is No gear handed over.

This is so totally true. In the past we had a quest in which we could read all about trading items. No one cared. Now we can find a text when trading with someone. Since this text is available we are warned against scammers. No need for GM's to check it out except if they have a coffee-break.

To overcome the scamming problem people shouldn't try to trade with a random person. Try 'your' faction first (if you are a member of one ofcourse).

ovenusarmanio

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-snip-

And there is no water without oxygen. No bread without grains. Just because you actually have to scam someone to run a successful scam, doesn't mean it's suddenly not a scam or not stealing. It's theft, plain and simple. You only were handed those things on false pretenses (luring) and then ran off with it in violation of your oral and written contract that specifically said you wouldn't. That's really cut and dry stealing. If some scammer isn't comfortable being labelled a thief then they shouldn't be doing it. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that luring someone into a trap so you can take things that don't belong to you is anything but stealing though.

Whether you chose to believe there are children and people with mental illnesses in this game or not, is irrelevant. I've met both. Both play this game. Like any online game there are a lot of different types of people, including people various mental or physical disabilities. Congratulations on being smarter than a 7th grader, that doesn't mean it took any kind of intelligence on behalf of the scammers to steal **** from someone who is still learning fractions and think number lines are hard. It's like asking a 13 year old to see his super cool nintendo and then running off with it. It's not impressive.

Also, no the judge won't ask that. It's stealing. Point blank and period. There is a legal contract each and every single one of us signed agreeing not to scam one another. Violating a contract in order to take something that doesn't belong to you is stealing. But go ahead and test that theory. Go and put your car on craiglist, advertise it for a price, and then when someone agrees to meet you somewhere, jump in their car and run away with their money. You'll be locked faster than you can say "I really shouldn't take obvious sarcastic advice from people over the internet."

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

That said, i am not expecting PWI to invest lots of time to investigate who is a scammer they need to ban. Yes i need to take care and not give my stuff to any random person. But that doesnt make it not a scam, not a theft and not horribly immoral to do it.

Quoted for the truth!

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

-snip-
@everyone else~
Either way im done here take care all and Please, Dont hand over your Gear to random people ^^

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But that Analogy, Its more that goes into it then that, i live in NC right now, It's a car mechanic shop down the street, the name is Macco, This shop has commercials on tv, and is a Legal business. If i took my gear to them, Chances are, im getting it back.

See, this right here is the correct analogy to use. These people advertise a service, and occasionally even have others vouching for them so their reputation looks good. You take the item to this person with a verbal agreement that you will pay to get an item upgraded, much in the same way you take a car in to the shop and agree to pay to get it repaired. They are specifically stating that they will provide this service and then you will receive an upgraded item, and then instead they steal the item. How is that not scamming?

However, If Some random guy Ask me to Let HIM drive my car to macco, chances I wouldnt be getting it back, With that being said, The Forge NPC itself is Macco, and the worthless G16 scammer would be the guy who wanted to "Drive my car to macco" I Could have avoided by car getting Stolen by not handing it to the complete stranger. Take your G15 Gear to the forge yourself AFK Drive your car to the machanic Yourself instead of letting someone taking it there for you.

This analogy is akin to the people that come up to you and say "hey, can I try out that mount" and then run off with it. I have much less sympathy for people that lose their items in this way. But that is still stealing, and as such should still be bannable.

The fact of the matter is that we have people that are far too trusting - that doesn't necessarily make them stupid, and I'm sure most of them learn from the mistake that this game is filled with greedy unconscionable people and that you can't trust anyone. But just because they make the mistake of believing there must be some good in people doesn't mean the other person shouldn't get punished for an illegal activity. It's no different in the real world - you often hear of older people losing all of their money to some scam, because they are just too trusting. And while they generally won't see that money again (unless they have the Leverage team on their side), the scammers will get punished if caught by the police because what they did was illegal.

I understand support not getting the items back for people who lost them in this way, because it most certainly was a big mistake on their part and really only takes common sense to avoid it. But I do believe the people that are doing the scamming should be punished.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

See, this right here is the correct analogy to use. These people advertise a service, and occasionally even have others vouching for them so their reputation looks good. You take the item to this person with a verbal agreement that you will pay to get an item upgraded, much in the same way you take a car in to the shop and agree to pay to get it repaired. They are specifically stating that they will provide this service and then you will receive an upgraded item, and then instead they steal the item. How is that not scamming?



This analogy is akin to the people that come up to you and say "hey, can I try out that mount" and then run off with it. I have much less sympathy for people that lose their items in this way. But that is still stealing, and as such should still be bannable.

The fact of the matter is that we have people that are far too trusting - that doesn't necessarily make them stupid, and I'm sure most of them learn from the mistake that this game is filled with greedy unconscionable people and that you can't trust anyone. But just because they make the mistake of believing there must be some good in people doesn't mean the other person shouldn't get punished for an illegal activity. It's no different in the real world - you often hear of older people losing all of their money to some scam, because they are just too trusting. And while they generally won't see that money again (unless they have the Leverage team on their side), the scammers will get punished if caught by the police because what they did was illegal.

I understand support not getting the items back for people who lost them in this way, because it most certainly was a big mistake on their part and really only takes common sense to avoid it. But I do believe the people that are doing the scamming should be punished.

Because a Legal car company would not Steal point blank. If the company stole from you then it wasnt a legit one. and The legal companies are The forges themselves in the game. The illegal, Under the table companies are Anyone you give your gear to. and Never once have the Forges Stole gear from me. It's not stealing.

You cant just walk into a House full of Murderers and then expect to Not get murdered, and then your family is blaming the murderers for your death when in fact it was the one who Walked into the house of murderers. It's still Murder none the less But it could have been avoided. There is No murder if there is no victim. It's just like calling Me a murderer and i've never killed anyone. Dont call the people who advertise G16 service Scammers Untill they actually scamed someone, and when they do scam someone, Know that it could have been avoided if people had more wisdom then the scams wouldn't exist because they wouldn't give their gear over. Yes i do believe that in order to be called a Scammer you have to at least Scam someone. IF the scams are avoided then you cant call that person a scammer.It's also not rocket science to avoid them. a 6th grader could avoid it. I give children much more credit then that, Their not dumb.

One easy fix to a Easy problem. I Dont want to get eaten by sharks, So i dont plan on going in shark infested waters and then getting Eaten and blaming the sharks for being freaking sharks. They always will be sharks after all. So in short, i dont believe you should Bann the sharks for being sharks And if you did, i wouldn't care. I dont need a GM to protect my gear for me either way.


Also, i really hate to do this, because i know how annoying it can be, But wikipedia:
Theft = In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

If you trade your items to that Person with your consent, How in the hell is that Theft. I just don't get it.

ovenusarmanio

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also, i really hate to do this, because i know how annoying it can be, But wikipedia:
Theft = In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

If you trade your items to that Person with your consent, How in the hell is that Theft. I just don't get it.

Nobody is calling all legitimate g16 sellers scammers..... And I'm willing to label them exactly the other thing they are, which is theives.

You didn't give consent for that person to take your item, they were selling a service. They lured someone into a trap under false pretenses with the intention of taking something that the person did not consent to giving away.They are entering into a transaction with the scammers and the scammers instead of honoring the transaction use the opportunity to take something that doesn't belong to them. That's why if you buy a used a car in the real world, the person can't just run off with their money and the car.

If you went to the computer repair store and handed your laptop over to the employee to fix. And that employee decided to take your laptop home and keep it for themselves, what would that be? It would be stealing. Everyone knows not all employees can be trusted, and all over the world employees rip off their employers everyday. And you still handed it over to them. But I'm willing to be you'd still want your laptop back if the police found it at his house. And you'd think he should be charged with stealing from work.

It's the same thing. You hired someone to do a certain service, and instead of doing the service advertised they used the opportunity to take something you were NOT giving to them to keep. There is no if and or buts about it, taking something that does NOT belong to you is stealing. And the people who are doing this scam are not just violating their oral contracts between players, but they are violating the TOS they legally agreed to abide by. They are in total violation of their contract and they deserve any ban that they get.

Also wikipedia is a really horrible source for information.

Our personal opinions on the intelligence of the victim should be irrelevant when it comes to rule enforcement. If they can prove their case to the GMs, then the GMS should enforce their rules. And it's just good business (and customary) to return a lost item if it's right there in the scammer's inventory.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Nobody is calling all legitimate g16 sellers scammers..... And I'm willing to label them exactly the other thing they are, which is theives.

You didn't give consent for that person to take your item, they were selling a service. They lured someone into a trap under false pretenses with the intention of taking something that the person did not consent to giving away.They are entering into a transaction with the scammers and the scammers instead of honoring the transaction use the opportunity to take something that doesn't belong to them. That's why if you buy a used a car in the real world, the person can't just run off with their money and the car.

If you went to the computer repair store and handed your laptop over to the employee to fix. And that employee decided to take your laptop home and keep it for themselves, what would that be? It would be stealing. Everyone knows not all employees can be trusted, and all over the world employees rip off their employers everyday. And you still handed it over to them. But I'm willing to be you'd still want your laptop back if the police found it at his house. And you'd think he should be charged with stealing from work.

It's the same thing. You hired someone to do a certain service, and instead of doing the service advertised they used the opportunity to take something you were NOT giving to them to keep. There is no if and or buts about it, taking something that does NOT belong to you is stealing. And the people who are doing this scam are not just violating their oral contracts between players, but they are violating the TOS they legally agreed to abide by. They are in total violation of their contract and they deserve any ban that they get.

Also wikipedia is a really horrible source for information.

Our personal opinions on the intelligence of the victim should be irrelevant when it comes to rule enforcement. If they can prove their case to the GMs, then the GMS should enforce their rules. And it's just good business (and customary) to return a lost item if it's right there in the scammer's inventory.

g16 scam issue, Agree to disagree.

Xainou - Sanctuary

There's no discussion, scamming someone by offering a service and running off with their items is scamming. And something that should be punished.

I would never give my stuff and trust to a random person I just met. That's the reason I never got screwed over like that. It's a stupid and risky business to start with, but if you're using that as a base to justify scamming, you're one crappy human being.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

There's no discussion, scamming someone by offering a service and running off with their items is scamming. And something that should be punished.

I would never give my stuff and trust to a random person I just met. That's the reason I never got screwed over like that. It's a stupid and risky business to start with, but if you're using that as a base to justify scamming, you're one crappy human being.

Gms wont be able to Hold peoples hand's like little children. If there is no Gear handed over, The scammer Doesnt exist. It's just some Guy with ideas. How can someone be a scammer If they never scamed One person. And it's a Easy fix to make sure he never scams One person. Which is Dont hand over gear.

No Trading your Gear to Random people in wc, No Scam will take place. If no scam take's place then that User who offered the services cant be called a scammer If the scam never happened. PWI knows this as well. it's why they haven't banned the G16 Crafting services. Like you said it's risky, For the simpleton that hands their Gear over that is. It's almost like you dont Believe that People shouldn't take responsibility for Their Own Life. Cant blame worthless scammers for being Worthless scammers. What world do you live in.