How come Vortex is THE skill?

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 · July 2014

Kalopsia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you update your skill and actually get the primal version of soulsever minuet, which I recommend, it is a single target debuff. Also, I'm sorry to inform you mobs don't even have attack lvls or defense lvls, kind of defeats the entire purpose of using it in pve as an aoe, wouldn't you say, "informations getting informed".

Kitty prefers being able to use any hit she wants to apply either of PD or SM to multiple targets and triggering it on all of them at once instead of having to use a certain skill to have it applied on a single target, without chance for many.

Mobs don't have any attack or defence levels indeed. Thus their attack and defence lvls are zero by default. But you can alter them with QPQ'd SacriSlash, NSW and SM.

Mana is cheap, mp charms are cheap and a plat mp charm will last on a seeker using vort for up to 3 months, far better than most classes.

It only lasts relatively long due to low base MP seekers have compared to casters. Even further if you go auto-attacking when not vortexing(which Kitty wouldn't wonder looking at your texts this far).

Regarding the angels, 1 spark for 10 seconds of 18% extra crits, isn't worth the time having vortex down if you're considered a true DD seeker. Also better hope the boss doesn't aoe, the pets die so easily. Also an FYI you can combo the pet into vort, it's extremely useful for soloing certain bosses which I won't mention

Angels indeed die quickly on bosses that spam AoEs a lot. But on bosses that don't AoE every other sec Angels's crit debuff gives nice boost to squad's damage.

And if you're sage seeker, you can start by summoning angels, apply correct shatters on boss(and wait till possible psy/wiz in your squad so you can Soulshatter to make them see some insane numbers), then use Master Li's Technique to get sparks full, SacriSlash -> [Crimson Soul/Blood Powder] -> QPQ -> Ion Spike -> BA -> EB ->Cloud Eruption lvl 1 -> Vortex to see some insane damage. If you do it properly angels still live for another 25 secs after EB has worn off. That's the combo Kitty's used on most non-AOE-happy bosses.

Along with Heart Shatter, seekers also have Mind shatter and Soul Shatter, if they haven't upgraded to the primal skill. All of which can be applied at the start of the boss. If the debuffs run out or the cd on SS is up you can easily drop vort and reapply.

Heartshatter and Mindshatter are indeed good to apply when starting boss. But using Soulshatter right away ish a grave mistake if you're not sure that wiz/psy ish sparking right away too(This has caused Kitty to RQ squads many times, along with seeing seekers auto-attacking). And even using Mindshatter or Soulshatter without casters(except cleric) in squad ish a sign of a fail seeker, that time could be used better. Soulshatter ish completely useless without psy or wiz in squad.
And Kitty prefers keeping old shatters over getting the Primal one, 'cause lvl 11 Heartshatter already gives the same damage boost, but Soulshatter ish kinda nerfed while Mindshatter gets some boost.

The nerf on Soulshatter ish especially bad as wiz or psy do massive DPH-damage sparked and 50% constant increase to damage output feels kinda lame compared to ~265% momentary increase from lvl 11 Soulshatter. It takes 1 min 20 secs of fighting for Primal version to surpass lvl 11 Soulshatter.

Seekers are a DPH class, which if you've been playing in the r9rr era, nearly every class is now, with the exception of some archer/sin skills. If aps classes (aka -int) are out-dd'ing you, you haven't kept up with the times and your information is outdated.

Since when DPH-classes have out-DD'd similar-lvl geared APSers on APSable bosses? Not to mention them being capable of good DPH too with T3/R9rr-set(Most just don't know their class).

Lastly I've played seeker since they first came out, I've focused my time on one class only so I could thoroughly equip it and understand. I was likely the first person / seeker to solo most of the higher lvl'd instances in this game (aka nirvy, caster nirvy, lunar 3 paths, tt-3-3, delta), long before r9rr and now TM lunar.

So what? Years you've played doesn't really mean anything, it's how you've played them and have you really learned your class(which you seem to have not).

Kitty's played 2,5 years now and she's better at every class than many who have played the certain class only from the beginning of PWI. Besides, if you've played only one class, you don't probably know much of what other classes can do, making you slightly worse teamplayer than someone who has played them all. lol

I'm 105-105-102 actually, I know that's a lot of heads and vortexed PV's, although not sure why it matters how you kill the mobs in PV.

WTS Sarcasm Radar. Yours ish clearly broken.

Kitty's replys in the color Kitty likes to use ^^

And seeing bad information being spread sucks. Kitty hates those doing that the most.

opkossy · July 2014

The last few pages of this thread made me laugh. The lengths some people will try to go to. b:chuckle

Alphaben - Raging Tide · July 2014

In squads without casters I still use SS when a bm is about to HF, boom 250% damage right there+any other debuffs

And I also still use Mindshatter because the sage version gives 50% crits (to all damage not just water and wood; which is a common misconception)

Seems like a waste not to use HS and MS together b:surrender

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 · July 2014

Alphaben - Raging Tide wrote: »

In squads without casters I still use SS when a bm is about to HF, boom 250% damage right there+any other debuffs

Sorry, but damage's not calculated like that. It's a common misconception that HF would be affected by Soulshatter. HF only has flame in it's name, but the damage it does ish 100% physical and so it isn't affected by Soulshatter at all.

Another common misconception ish Blazing Arrow or Poison Fang makes shatters affect them. Shatters only affect the skills with certain base damage, like Mindshatter affects veno's Blazing Scarab as the base damage ish wood-based, but Soulshatter not affecting 'cause the fire damage ish just additional damage but the skill isn't fire-based.

And the formula for damage affected by HF and SS isn't 200%+250%(which would be 450% total damage) but 200%x250%(which ish 500%). And they only affect skills that do fire- or earth-based damage, thus being useless for anything but wizard or psy.

And I also still use Mindshatter because the sage version gives 50% crits (to all damage not just water and wood; which is a common misconception)

Actually it's not a misconception. The difference between sage Mindshatter and demon Mindshatter ish that sage increases crit rate from wood- and water-based attacks against target by 50% while demon increases it by 35% and increases damage it takes from wood and water attacks by 15%.
If Sage Mindshatter affected all elements instead of just wood and water, combined with sage Soulshatter wizzie's and psy's crit rate with earth and fire skills would be over 100%, which obviously isn't the case.

Seems like a waste not to use HS and MS together b:surrender

Kitty's replies in the color.

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · July 2014

And if you're sage seeker, you can start by summoning angels, apply correct shatters on boss(and wait till possible psy/wiz in your squad so you can Soulshatter to make them see some insane numbers), then use Master Li's Technique to get sparks full, SacriSlash -> [Crimson Soul/Blood Powder] -> QPQ -> Ion Spike -> BA -> EB ->Cloud Eruption lvl 1 -> Vortex to see some insane damage. If you do it properly angels still live for another 25 secs after EB has worn off. That's the combo Kitty's used on most non-AOE-happy bosses.

b:surrender This combo make 0 sense to me because of multiple reasons. First, thats a huge spark consumation for a non spark combo. In total, you use 6 spark to use everything, and you reserve your apoth for crimsom blood powder, so cant use that for chi. Its too much for any substained boss fight unless you plan to vortex all the rest fo the fight till cloud erupt fill you back 4 time, which is not the strongest skills in the opinion of a lot here.
Second, wasted time using ion spike before BA, could use BA before and still manage. Even then, why use ion spike just to boost edged blur damage alone? Should add battousai and heartseeker to make ion spike really useful.
Third, why vortex and edged blur? Just Triple spark and chain skills, youll end up doing more damage by far in my experience. Its fairly simple to have a chain of skills that will be as constant as vortex damage (as long as you dont lag) + chaining skills add a 20 def lvl debuff that you can keep up constantly.

My chain that let em DD constantly: Gravel blade, Wind blade, arme nier, gravel blade, Wind blade, battousai, gravel blade, Wind blade, heartseeker, gravel blade, Wind blade, battousai
Then just repeat from the start. Can also switch heartseeker or armer nier with both darkcloud bolt and stalastrike together.

Im not aiming to insult or something like that, but i find it silly you are trying to correct everyone yet you use vortex for your main DD... I only count on 1 hand the occasion vortex is really the best way to DD on a boss, but im not telling.
And also, Kalo can live using vortex to DD because he flat out out card everyone on our server no one can take aggro from him and hold it. Maybe he'd get outdamaged by someone else with same card? dunno.

peckked · July 2014

I need credentials now? How about math?

I'm too lazy to flush this out entirely, but I've modified a spreadsheet to illustrate the damage difference between vortex and the short macro I suggested...

Link here.

Quick summary:

DPS Unsparked (4200 base weapon damage, 680 str)

Rock Splitting Cleave 106,296
Staggering Strike 106,489
Battousai 73,688

Average Damage over 10.5s (3x each skill) = 969,951
Chi change over 10.5s = +90 chi
MP Cost over 10.5s = 675

Vortex 78,429

Average Damage over 10.5s (7 ticks)= 823,501
Chi change over 10.5s = -200 chi
MP Cost over 10.5s = 3045

Not taken into consideration is the extra damage for NSW from proc/debuff, so the 3 basic skills can have even greater average damage. Also the primal upgrades do a little more damage so it only goes up from here. Blade Affinity will increase DPS for the 3 skills by ~10% while doing nothing for vortex. Crit and GoF the scale the same for either option. So who still thinks vortex is the best DD option vs a single target? Oh and feel free to test out some different numbers. Any Str or Str/Dex build, level 10x, with 10x gear, and any 10x +5 weapon or greater will see similar results with spammable skills vs vortex. I didn't bother testing any lower than that since if you don't meet those requirements then you're hardly a factor yet anyway. Possibly, at 8x/9x vortex could do better... but only if vortexed is maxed, and you're using garbage for a weapon. In terms of damage, Vortex is inferior to even a seekers basic skills vs a single target. Vortex has only 2 advantages: 1) You can be lazy 2) You can deal damage while sealed. These 3 skills in rotation have tons: 1) More DPS 2) More flexible 3) Can proc debuff for squad 4) Uses 1/5 the MP 5) Costs no chi (and can therefore easily 3-spark with it without apoth/genie) 6) Generates chi 7) Ranged... I could go on.

Lastly, all classes are DPS, when talking about maximum damage over a set period of time.

Kalopsia - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And also, Kalo can live using vortex to DD because he flat out out card everyone on our server no one can take aggro from him and hold it. Maybe he'd get outdamaged by someone else with same card? dunno.

Long before cards existed or r9rr even, I ran tons of trials with the top faction on server, with the top DD's of every class, ie. r9+12 wep +r9 ring/skycover or cloud stir. Also against seekers with the same gear as me, and never by the end of any boss did I not have aggro. Even while dropping to put up ss which I coordinated the psy's/wiz's to spark for each time. The same concept holds true today, regardless of cards/deities. Cards don't give too much of an advantage in pve in comparison to pvp anyways, seeing that spirit doesn't influence pve damage much. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion I suppose though, I stick with what's been proven to work.

opkossy · July 2014

You're basing your thing off of trials? Aka the place where zhen-like skills are insanely overpowered because you have near infinite MP ~AND~ a massive boost to skill damage from the buff you get in there?

Not exactly the greatest idea, methinks.

Kalopsia - Dreamweaver · July 2014

OPKossy wrote: »

You're basing your thing off of trials? Aka the place where zhen-like skills are insanely overpowered because you have near infinite MP ~AND~ a massive boost to skill damage from the buff you get in there?

Not exactly the greatest idea, methinks.

Everyone gets the same boost, the damage is simply doubled, for everyone. If everyone's damage was halved, the outcome would still be same. Mp isn't a factor whatsoever if you have a charm anyways. The only classes whom didn't receive a bonus were the aps classes. Nowadays aps is phased out pretty much, no r9rr+12 sin at 4aps can come close to out dd'ing end game seeks.

Bli$$ - Lost City · July 2014

Kalopsia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Everyone gets the same boost, the damage is simply doubled, for everyone. If everyone's damage was halved, the outcome would still be same. Mp isn't a factor whatsoever if you have a charm anyways. The only classes whom didn't receive a bonus were the aps classes. Nowadays aps is phased out pretty much, no r9rr+12 sin at 4aps can come close to out dd'ing end game seeks.

I like to think the best of people.. and the best I can find in this is... Let's just call a troll a troll so I don't have to lose more faith in humanity.

peckked · July 2014

Kalopsia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Everyone gets the same boost, the damage is simply doubled, for everyone. If everyone's damage was halved, the outcome would still be same. Mp isn't a factor whatsoever if you have a charm anyways. The only classes whom didn't receive a bonus were the aps classes. Nowadays aps is phased out pretty much, no r9rr+12 sin at 4aps can come close to out dd'ing end game seeks.

A perma sparked 4aps r9+12 sin's DPS: 347,318 Link

Or to translate that to the same 10.5s I used earlier: 3,646,839. Only with the anti-aps buff will the equivalent seeker out DD this sin. Even if a seeker managed to maintain permaspark you're still only looking at ~2.1m consistently over the same 10.5s, and that is counting heart shatter. Let's not even start on how this comparison is affected by crit%/wolf emblem.

The fact that you've put so much focus on your only class since the beginning of time only implies your lack of knowledge, or dare I say it, lacking credentials in comparing to other classes which you more or less stated you know little to nothing about since you've been busy "focusing." It's also kinda clear that you're not so familiar with your own class. Please stop enabling the noobest of seeker habits.

Colum - Raging Tide · July 2014

And even if a seeker would outdamage their individual squad members, it does not mean they outdamage the entire other squad's force hence the debuffs are important.

Yajirushi - Raging Tide · August 2014

Considering most people that consider Vortex "The Skill" don't even know what Stances are, I think we have work to do on training our Seekers...

Samaranight - Sanctuary · August 2014

Vortex is "The Skill" for tanking as not a damn thing can rip aggro from it(unless Sins try really hard). But it's not a skill you want to use for every situation. That's just stupid.

Yajirushi - Raging Tide wrote: »

Considering most people that consider Vortex "The Skill" don't even know what Stances are, I think we have work to do on training our Seekers...

A bit late for that.

rayapresbe1 · August 2014

Vortex is so over rated, a good seeker can with little to no problem solo a boss and keep a squad alive tanking or not. Heartshatter soulshatter and mindshatter all have their place as well as seekers working in tandem with one another to use all 3 swordstances to cast all 3 damages on a boss at once, if done right a seeker can cast all his stances norther sky waltz paracheted blade and soulserver minute and execute them in a matter of seconds greatly injuring the boss, and I being a novice seeker can do this so can high end seekers, as well as trade off stances with other seekers.

it comes down to being lazy, and not putting forth effort.

I use mainly edge blur and parachuted blade along with my 3 debufs and can easily solo most bosses without R9 gear as I am still in G15 atm

shame on you lazy seekers.

Medaka - Morai · August 2014

rayapresbe1 wrote: »

Vortex is so over rated, a good seeker can with little to no problem solo a boss and keep a squad alive tanking or not. Heartshatter soulshatter and mindshatter all have their place as well as seekers working in tandem with one another to use all 3 swordstances to cast all 3 damages on a boss at once, if done right a seeker can cast all his stances norther sky waltz paracheted blade and soulserver minute and execute them in a matter of seconds greatly injuring the boss, and I being a novice seeker can do this so can high end seekers, as well as trade off stances with other seekers.

it comes down to being lazy, and not putting forth effort.

I use mainly edge blur and parachuted blade along with my 3 debufs and can easily solo most bosses without R9 gear as I am still in G15 atm

shame on you lazy seekers.

The extra damage from Parchedblade does little to no damage to actual bosses and is thus useless when it comes to those seeing as the stun doesn't affect them. You're far better off starting with soulsever, activating it on the boss and then switching to northern sky waltz for the rest of the fight (or 3 minutes, incase it's a long fight switch back to soulsever and redo the combo once it runs out). You're basically debuffing the boss for 10 (12 if demon) attack and defense levels, then overwriting the defense level debuff every few seconds with a -20 one.

There is absolutely no need to co-operate with other seekers outside of letting the one with better debuffs cast them, or deciding on who soulshatters first (if pre-NH). A "good" seeker can handle all of the debuffs by themselves with ease.
(btw when you say all 3 stances, we actually have 4 but that one's useless in pve anyways

)

Anyways the simple use of Vortex doesn't classify someone as a bad seeker, even if it's their chosen way of dealing damage on bosses (and you can combo it properly to actually deal maximum damage while also having the boss debuffed). It all comes down to how you use it, and what you choose to do when you can't use it, or just simply knowing when it's the best moment to use it.

Liveena - Heavens Tear · September 2014

I have to say it clearly, vortex is NOT THE SKILL for skilled seeker.b:laugh

In boss fight, the ability to debuf the boss fast as HF and other class debuff is being thrown is crucial as it will increase damage significantly to boss.

When boss fight is started, I mostly triple spark, followed by chaos blade and sacrificial slash + qpq as BM throw their HF and veno purge+amp and sin subsea. After that I use sage blade affinity and sage ion spike to debuff boss metal resistance and hopefully boss is marked by spirit bore, then followed by gemini slash and heart seeker. I use this combo in FSP boss fight with other well geared people, and bosses mostly dead within 1-2 minute.

I only use vortex in lunar and RB as means to mass agro control and dealing massive aoe damage.

And thats it, vortex is meant for mass agro control if your damage output is high enough and you're capable of tanking it. b:bye

Kinda sad that most seeker didn't learn about their debuff ability, b:surrender

Colum - Raging Tide · September 2014

Just yesterday a seeker asked my squad why shouldnt he vortex on three mobs... b:sweat

Rosie_Caster - Harshlands · September 2014

for my seeker, the only time i vortex is mainly just in pv when i get bp on, and i either solo the pv or i go in with 3 friends of min wh just so happen to be 3 clerics,
as for debuffing mobs. well in a huge pull and each mob has the same ammount of health, and you want me to heart shatter each one, well tough luck.
the most i can heart shatter is 4 out of the 50 you pulled before they die and you want to yell at me becuase i couldnt aoe heartshatter? play a seeker then you "aoe heartshatter" (that was a bit of rant)

on bosses with a big squad i dont have sage/demon debuffs so if theres another seeker with those i just dd and ask for that person to do it.

i agree with one of you who says seekers vortex because they want to tank. before fc died i would clear out some fcs with my seeker and take other people on some of them. and this lvl 87 seeker just keeps vortexing and yells at me because im not doing a good job tanking. i use 1 aoe and i pull from his vortex

im ranting a bit im sorry

Colum - Raging Tide · September 2014

Seekers also tend to set up vortex at the 5 kings in Flowsilver Palace even if the squad has only 1-2 magic DDs. b:sweat

Keisari - Raging Tide · September 2014

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Seekers also tend to set up vortex at the 5 kings in Flowsilver Palace even if the squad has only 1-2 magic DDs. b:sweat

Any real seekers would Battousai -> Ion Spike -> Battousai -> Heartseeker -> Rinse -> Repeat on the phys. immune. Chi management isn't too big problem if not totally dull. Too bad that Kitty's yet to see any real seekers except herself (probably the reason why Kitty's seeker wasn't accepted as mag. DD).

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · September 2014

Thing about the 5 king thing, a seeker is usually the best at just tanking all of them beside physicla immune and nto take damage with vortex thanks to bp and (usual BB). In that 1-2 arcane scenario, it depend how strong are the 2 and if they focus the physical immune. if they do and it die relatively at same pace, no problem, but if it dont, best thing to do imo is vortex a bit until the aggro of the 4 Kings are on the seeker then throw 2-3 metal skill rotation on the physical immune.

(Keep in mind for the way im doing it im r93rd +12, so my damage are quite high, so a different way might be needed for g16 seeker)

Colum - Raging Tide · September 2014

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thing about the 5 king thing, a seeker is usually the best at just tanking all of them beside physicla immune and nto take damage with vortex thanks to bp and (usual BB). In that 1-2 arcane scenario, it depend how strong are the 2 and if they focus the physical immune. if they do and it die relatively at same pace, no problem, but if it dont, best thing to do imo is vortex a bit until the aggro of the 4 Kings are on the seeker then throw 2-3 metal skill rotation on the physical immune.

(Keep in mind for the way im doing it im r93rd +12, so my damage are quite high, so a different way might be needed for g16 seeker)

Why a seeker should aggro them? Especially with BB those bosses' damage is so pathetic every caster can tank all 5 b:surrender

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · September 2014

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why a seeker should aggro them? Especially with BB those bosses' damage is so pathetic every caster can tank all 5 b:surrender

At the start id kinda disagree, their debuff are same as demon ironwood, both for physical or magical, so some people tanking them at start might die if they not that tanky. Its just a safety i do.

Colum - Raging Tide · September 2014

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At the start id kinda disagree, their debuff are same as demon ironwood, both for physical or magical, so some people tanking them at start might die if they not that tanky. Its just a safety i do.

What on earth are barbs doing on your server? My AoE cycles are enough to keep aggro from most casters, many seekers, BMs and sins, archers too (though theres many OP archers on our server whom I cant keep aggro from). I havent ever faced any issues with the kings, seeker in squad or not, as long as no one AOEs them when theyre still walking down (causes a glitch).

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2014

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

What on earth are barbs doing on your server? My AoE cycles are enough to keep aggro from most casters, many seekers, BMs and sins, archers too (though theres many OP archers on our server whom I cant keep aggro from). I havent ever faced any issues with the kings, seeker in squad or not, as long as no one AOEs them when theyre still walking down (causes a glitch).

they arent doing anything wrong, your just working too hard

you should relax and let them take a hit or two b:chuckle

Colum - Raging Tide · October 2014

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

they arent doing anything wrong, your just working too hard you should relax and let them take a hit or two b:chuckle

"Relaxing" at 5 kings = no hitting at all for a barb. Our AoE cycles do requie bit of work.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · October 2014

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

What on earth are barbs doing on your server? My AoE cycles are enough to keep aggro from most casters, many seekers, BMs and sins, archers too (though theres many OP archers on our server whom I cant keep aggro from). I havent ever faced any issues with the kings, seeker in squad or not, as long as no one AOEs them when theyre still walking down (causes a glitch).

On DW we run FSP w/o barbs. #GG

Socqar - Lost City · October 2014

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

On DW we run FSP w/o barbs. #GG

Because DW is special? All servers do that, just needs someone skilled and non-laggy to do it... ANy class can if squad is OP enough. If squad is **** sins still can tank it rather easily as they basically **** chi and can keep sparking boss's special attack.

Some other classes such as Psy's can handle rather well, maybe even more...

Keep feeling special

Colum - Raging Tide · October 2014

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Because DW is special? All servers do that, just needs someone skilled and non-laggy to do it... ANy class can if squad is OP enough. If squad is **** sins still can tank it rather easily as they basically **** chi and can keep sparking boss's special attack.

Some other classes such as Psy's can handle rather well, maybe even more...

Keep feeling special

Well this "blahblahblah we run without barbs blahblahblah we run without clerics" got old long time ago. Yet those people tend to want venos, BMs and seekers so they have their cookie cutter squad with amps... b:laugh

I dont care much about classes when forming squads regardless of my toon, for toad tanking either barb or someone else who knows their timing, heals if needed, even purify isn't a "must"...

People may not NEED barbs but, surprise surprise, I do not NEED any other class either... b:bye

--

On topic: Gotta love demon seekers who have picked their culti just for the sake of demon vortex, then see them bid high for the skill on bidding hall... b:pleased

How come Vortex is THE skill?

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