How come Vortex is THE skill?

Colum - Raging Tide

What makes all the seekers think that,

1) Vortex is the BEST damage skill used on bosses, especially when tanking (NOTE: I don't mean special occasions like Toad where vortex kills the axes easily)
2) Vortex is THE SKILL used in all pulls regardless if the seeker is tanking or not

Keep in mind here I refer to the seekers with good gear and weapon, not to the ones who vortex on pulls simply to stay alive due to the BP heals. Wouldnt sparking and using other skills be better for AOE situations, assuming the mobs die rather fast as they should when the gears are good.

And why, WHY seekers rather vortex than use their debuffs?

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

I can think of a few reasons:

1. Such Seekers don't know how to combo skills+debuffs for big damage (aka: they don't know their class well)

2. They would rather be lazy than to make an actual effort in that regard

3. Such Seekers prioritize their damage output over that of the squads


Seriously, I cant tell you how many squads I've been in where a decent or top end seeker would just set up Vortex or just Heart Shatter+spam random skills w/o any real thought of debuffing

Edit: This is specifically focused on bosses. Things die too quickly on most pulls to really matter nowadays anyway

Desdi - Sanctuary

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2. They would rather be lazy than to make an actual effort in that regard

To be honest, I think this is the case for most people. I know a few seekers who are great but are lazy and prefer to vortex whenever they get a chance.

Colum - Raging Tide

Then my server must be full of ignorant seekers because I get told it's the best skill to use at bosses and other kind of BS. b:surrender

WannaBM - Archosaur

Because vortex is grossly overpowered, similar to BB

For both it might technically be better to use different skills depending on the situation, but the difference wont be big and its hard to go wrong with 2 these static skills.

Againt bosses obviously it is much better to debuf and help the whole squad. I rarely see seekers vortex bosses. For AOE i dont really see any reason to do differently for them myself either. Its safe with BP, its a good dmg attack every 1.5 seconds and pretty much anything dies in 10-15 seconds.

I too would prefer seekers to spend those seconds on sparking instead of vortexing asap as it would give us time to cast sunder first and have the agro-chi for arma b:chuckle

I suspect this is what caused you to post this. I know how it feels when the seekers are trying their best to get that damn vortex up asap so that you dont get the chi for your arma and he is going to need 10 seconds for killing those mobs, leaving you to stand there being useless for those 10 seconds while you could have taken half their HP with that arma or all of it if you have a lucky zerk hit. b:surrender They are an annoying 10 seconds yes. Better invite slow seekers and fast BMs to your squads

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver

b:surrender vortex is far from being the highest damaging capacity on seeker, but its the most consistant, which is sometimes needed. Chaining combos along with triple sparks will deal lot more damage then vortex but after 3-4 spark, you lack the chi to spark fast enough to keep the damage high. Chaining skills is more useful then vortex on most boss and especially tiger event boss. I get 1.5x more points off a boss if i chain skills over vortex. But for the primal world boss, me and the other seeker in my squad will vortex it to keep our damage constant on it and not have high and lows because of our lack of chi.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Mostly because it's lazy. The only time I really use Vortex is in Delta spawn.

Today's players go for whatever's easy. Learning how to play a class correctly and efficiently requires work. Pretty sure you can do more combined damage with skills, and still spam AoE damage like crazy, than you can sitting in Vortex.

I started a calculator for this a while back, but got sidetracked. Might get back on it.

Colum - Raging Tide

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I too would prefer seekers to spend those seconds on sparking instead of vortexing asap as it would give us time to cast sunder first and have the agro-chi for arma though b:chuckle

I suspect this is what caused you to post this. I know how it feels when the seekers are trying their best to get that damn vortex up asap so that you dont get the chi for your arma and he is going to need 10 seconds for killing those mobs, leaving you to stand there being useless for those 10 seconds while you could have taken half their HP with that arma or all of it if you have a lucky zerk hit. b:surrender They are an annoying 10 seconds yes. Better invite slow seekers and fast BMs to your squads

Yes, this is one of the reasons I'm posting this. Vortex-obsession mainly pisses me off because of the following,

1) Bosses aren't properly debuffed (even first debuffing and then vortexing causes some debuffs to wear off soonish) > less damage to the squad
2) Seekers insisting they vortex because they want to tank
3) Seeker vortexing instantly on mob pulls > no chi for me > can't do my job
4) Getting yelled at if an idiot seeker places the vortex 50ft away on some lonely mob so I have to run the entire pull there b:angry
5. Using it in places where it's unnecessary (RB seeker vortexing in fc squad, vortexing at shades, trying to vortex at exp room boss...)

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mostly because it's lazy. The only time I really use Vortex is in Delta spawn.

Today's players go for whatever's easy. Learning how to play a class correctly and efficiently requires work. Pretty sure you can do more combined damage with skills, and still spam AoE damage like crazy, than you can sitting in Vortex.

I started a calculator for this a while back, but got sidetracked. Might get back on it.

Really with the gear that is in game these days, and all the arguably overpowered people running around, it can be extremely difficult to learn how to play a class correctly. Not to mention even some of the... ways we use to play this game have become obsolete, most oped squads don't even need me to stun any more, as most mobs are dead long before my stun is of any use, and even when I do stun, while it is still useful, and noticed to an extent, most people can survive with or without the stun, and they can absolutely kill mobs/bosses just fine without my debuffs, they can also easily tank the damage from the mobs/bosses.

My point is that with the gear progression this game has experienced, learning to play a class 'correctly' especially in pve, and even in pvp, is no easy task.

Seriously why try to learn your class correctly/go out of your way to do your 'job'/role when people are more than capable of doing it without you? (Now do not get me wrong as I said in my first paragraph, I realize stuns, and hfs are still useful, but these days hardly anyone really needs it, let alone an actual barb tanking. So yes... this most certainly isn't limited to just one class.)


---

As for the original topic.

^ What ebri, and a few others said, albeit my seeker isn't the one they are talking about, still I do agree always vortexing instead of debuffing is rather silly. (Though I really do dislike it when a barb devours and overwrite my attack lvl debuff... theirs last all of 4 seconds, mine last's 10 minutes. ) Also as ebri said sometimes that consistent damage is so needed to get past a mob/boss... though that is fairly rare.

Colum - Raging Tide

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

(Though I really do dislike it when a barb devours and overwrite my attack lvl debuff... theirs last all of 4 seconds, mine last's 10 minutes. )

b:chuckle I can assure you I rather devour for the actual phys def debuff, not for the attack level. Nowadays gotta worry less about it though since both venos and BMs have as good/better debuff.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:chuckle I can assure you I rather devour for the actual phys def debuff, not for the attack level. Nowadays gotta worry less about it though since both venos and BMs have as good/better debuff.

There is definitely that, I can understand that part, but it does suck that it overwrites the atk lvl debuff... and considering the other def lvl debuff seekers have I would rather use that than gemini slash. :$

Definitely true that we hardly need an atk lvl debuff on bosses these days.

ovenusarmanio

For the same reason that BB is overused and people feel like they deserve tens of millions of coins every week for existing. It offers the most reward for the least amount of effort.

KingCrash - Dreamweaver

Because it seems to be a r9 thing. Occasionally I'll see the alt will full turquoise shards too.

What I seem to get out of the reasoning is, auto-pot plus vortex means you can switch to your other clients and see how those are doing. That's not an exaggeration either, people got to get all the alts taken care of.

It's funny watching people react to this amazing hit they got with me in squad. I wonder why.

I'm actually content letting others do all the work for me if all I have to do is Soul Shatter a boss or two.

I hate using vortex actually. There are way better options for me to use my chi on and it saves me on the massive pot consumption.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Only sage venos have equal, demon's is better or worse, depending on proc chance of the 180% debuff (assuming they didn't stick with demon ironwood...)

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Only sage venos have equal, demon's is better or worse, depending on proc chance of the 180% debuff (assuming they didn't stick with demon ironwood...)

why would a demon veno get the new one, its bad compared to the old one. old one is a flat 0 where new one is never a flat 0, because of buffs and/or stats which are not calculated in gear values

opkossy

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why would a demon veno get the new one, its bad compared to the old one. old one is a flat 0 where new one is never a flat 0, because of buffs and/or stats which are not calculated in gear values

Someone had to make the sacrifice for the greater good.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

I could definitely see a PVE-only (or principally) demon veno getting venomworm.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why would a demon veno get the new one, its bad compared to the old one. old one is a flat 0 where new one is never a flat 0, because of buffs and/or stats which are not calculated in gear values

For PvE, Demon Redstone is superior. The 100% debuff from Myriad is already enough to bring monsters down to 0 physical defence most of the time so 180% vs. flat 0 doesn't make a difference for most bosses.

Also, a reliable physical debuff is much loved by physical DDs. One of the reasons people preferred Sages for farming (among other things). Well, there's Pierce that has a 36% physical defence debuff but Redstone allows Demon Venomancers to swap that skill out for something else. Harpy's great DD also but doesn't have any debuffs. Redstone can be used more often etc. Pet has a chance to die etc. etc. etc.

In PvP...well...Redstone was good for Venomancers that group PvP a lot because of the reliable debuff and stuff but because of the passives now Demon Ironwood is even better than it was.

I'm...one of those that learnt Redstone. I did it because I was influenced by a friend who said it would be great for support and partially because I wanted to try it out. He wasn't completely wrong but he plays Sage so I guess he had a different point of view. Well, I learnt not to underestimate my own opinion after that since I regret giving up on Ironwood. I gotta trust myself more.


So uhh...back on topic.
Lazies choose vortex and BB.

Rixoth - Archosaur

LF> Seeker for delta or lunar cus obviously other classes can't tank/aoe the waves/pulls.

Huehue.

CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur

Vort is just one of those skills tht is just to easy to abuse in pve, its just so easy to use in instances such as lunar and delta, even see it used in warsong quite often. The sad part is when seekers tend to overuse it to the point where u think they arent aware of their other aoe skills lol. Personally i prefer edged blur to vort in almost all situations especially if a large cluster of mobs happens to be debuffed or HF'd

In regards to seek's not using their shatters, i never understood y so many seek's dont use it.

Shatters r epic.

Also vort+edged blur at the same time ftw! Go try it, its fun!

Colum - Raging Tide

CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur wrote: »

Vort is just one of those skills tht is just to easy to abuse in pve, its just so easy to use in instances such as lunar and delta, even see it used in warsong quite often. The sad part is when seekers tend to overuse it to the point where u think they arent aware of their other aoe skills lol. Personally i prefer edged blur to vort in almost all situations especially if a large cluster of mobs happens to be debuffed or HF'd

b:chuckle I also prefer Blur over Vortex in many AOE situations but I got told off for being a noob for doing that.

CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur

lol so have i, i never undertood y though b:laugh

Medaka - Morai

CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur wrote: »

Vort is just one of those skills tht is just to easy to abuse in pve, its just so easy to use in instances such as lunar and delta, even see it used in warsong quite often. The sad part is when seekers tend to overuse it to the point where u think they arent aware of their other aoe skills lol. Personally i prefer edged blur to vort in almost all situations especially if a large cluster of mobs happens to be debuffed or HF'd

In regards to seek's not using their shatters, i never understood y so many seek's dont use it.

Shatters r epic.

Also vort+edged blur at the same time ftw! Go try it, its fun!

I can't say I don't like blur either, but one part of what you said bothers me. HF doesn't affect blur in any way at all. Metal/magic defense debuffs affect it, aswell as attack level buffs on yourself but amps have no effect on it.

As for this thread... I use all of the skills nearly equally. Vortex, although being the so-defined "noob skill" is actually quite useful for some situations, and I prefer using it than trying to look "pro". I doubt anyone with some knowledge would go around calling seekers that use all of their skills properly a "noob".

For some examples: there's pulls you might solo with bp heals but a simple aoe chain isn't enough for it (I have a slightly long aoe chain that doesn't use vortex, and in some situations it really isn't enough), I'd say Lunar in this situation as I prefer pulling whole valleys solo. Even with the gear I may have, it's not enough for me to tank those out of vortex heals nor is it enough for me to kill them with a few aoes.

Then there's some places where you prefer killing stuff faster. Be it that you want to farm something quickly or you have a squad constantly being annoying... . Though out of the new instances, or stuff like sot/aba/ws, the only place I still use vortex in is at metal pull. Some might argue here, but I prefer finishing that faster so that I don't have to deal with silence spam from the mobs (pull from start to end, start vortex and faith right away).

Well outside of vortex being useful sometimes, if I see a cluster of mobs HF'ed I almost instantly drop gemini slash on them b:chuckle.

Colum - Raging Tide

Yeah vortex does have it's place, but it is way overfavored in some situations and sometimes seekers cause deaths with it, for example:

A "badly" geared seeker, let's say TT 90 armor with T2-T3 weapon or somewhere around that, is in a Lunar squad with barb, cleric, assassin, wizard and a venomancer. Barbarian does a full pull in second valley, because they're all comfortable tanking the mobs considering they get enough chi to get AOEs out. Barb pulls. As soon as he stops to invoke, seeker rushes to set vortex on mobs. Mobs being aggroed by this seeker, barb cannot get sunder-arma combo out and thus faces difficulties regaining aggro fast enough (roar does not do miracles). Seeker dies, as their defense is still too low to tank the whole pull and they do not have apoth with them. Depending on the other DDs damage output vs the barb's AOE damage output without proper chi gain, others might die too. Barb has to tank the mobs alone in cleric's BB, and depending on their gear, genie and apoth they may get out enough damage to kill the mobs before they die or in the worse scenario... not.

I know that personally I can stay alive for a very long time in that pull as long as I have bloodpaint or BB but having to solo the mobs alone after the seeker's mistake is going to cost me time and a bigger repair bill. Would seriously be great if that vortex was got up AFTER I sunder. b:surrender

Medaka - Morai

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah vortex does have it's place, but it is way overfavored in some situations and sometimes seekers cause deaths with it, for example:

A "badly" geared seeker, let's say TT 90 armor with T2-T3 weapon or somewhere around that, is in a Lunar squad with barb, cleric, assassin, wizard and a venomancer. Barbarian does a full pull in second valley, because they're all comfortable tanking the mobs considering they get enough chi to get AOEs out. Barb pulls. As soon as he stops to invoke, seeker rushes to set vortex on mobs. Mobs being aggroed by this seeker, barb cannot get sunder-arma combo out and thus faces difficulties regaining aggro fast enough (roar does not do miracles). Seeker dies, as their defense is still too low to tank the whole pull and they do not have apoth with them. Depending on the other DDs damage output vs the barb's AOE damage output without proper chi gain, others might die too. Barb has to tank the mobs alone in cleric's BB, and depending on their gear, genie and apoth they may get out enough damage to kill the mobs before they die or in the worse scenario... not.

I know that personally I can stay alive for a very long time in that pull as long as I have bloodpaint or BB but having to solo the mobs alone after the seeker's mistake is going to cost me time and a bigger repair bill. Would seriously be great if that vortex was got up AFTER I sunder. b:surrender

Well I can see how that might not work out, but if you think of it the Seeker should get more blame than the skill in this case. Assuming that he had BP, he might've lived a little bit before dying. But the actual issue in this case isn't that he vortexed, it's that he attacked too early (which a lot of people seem to like doing nowadays). Had he dropped any other aoe, by the time you used your combo, without the BP heals from vortex he would've died instantly anyway. So it's really a sign of a bad player right there .

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:chuckle I also prefer Blur over Vortex in many AOE situations but I got told off for being a noob for doing that.

Its not noob to use edged blur in a aoe situation but, 2 thing make it less useful then vortex and should be used for pvp only. First, unless the mobs die in 12 second, it does a lot less damage then vortex for the same chi cost. Even if you keep aoeing along with it, it does not keep up the damage if the mobs take too long to die.

2nd, it does not create damage aggro, where that can be important to have in situation like fc, warsong or lunar. Vortex will keep a constant aggro creating in its aoe where edged blur will create none and only the aoe skills used with it will be the aggro.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Medaka - Morai wrote: »

Well I can see how that might not work out, but if you think of it the Seeker should get more blame than the skill in this case. Assuming that he had BP, he might've lived a little bit before dying. But the actual issue in this case isn't that he vortexed, it's that he attacked too early (which a lot of people seem to like doing nowadays). Had he dropped any other aoe, by the time you used your combo, without the BP heals from vortex he would've died instantly anyway. So it's really a sign of a bad player right there .

Indeed. And now he is talking about the seeker dying in which case it is obviously a ****** seeker*. It is however also anoying when the seeker is not weak. Or indeed when it is not a seeker but anyone else attacking too early. I know people complain about "barbs always wanting to have agro" but agro gives us chi and it gives us 200% weapon attack bonus. Chi allows us to cast sunder-arma which does between 0.5 and 1m AOE dmg on HF not including zerk hits. Of course everything will die without it with a tiny bit more patience and it costs only 10 seconds more, but its kinda annoying that people go to the great lengths to catch up with me and attack before i can even though i use holy path to try and prevent them from being able to. It seems people think it is a challenge to be faster and steal agro from the barb to render them useless and slow down things down.

What positively surprises me though is how few BMs **** it up for the barb by stunning the mobs. I live in the happy assumption that this is because they understand that it is making things harder for us and not because they were always laze and have never even considered using that skill please leave me with this assumption

I do blame both the vortex and BB skill though. Not just for this specific example, but for contributing to the dumbing down of the gamer community as a whole.


*not just seekers but most people seem to be rather **** though, whenever i tell people in clericless, unbuffed FW squads not to attack the fire vile because i am first going to invoke, then remake chi, then spark, 90-95% of the cases they do attack anyway and die)

Medaka - Morai

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Indeed. And now he is talking about the seeker dying in which case it is obviously a ****** seeker*. It is however also anoying when the seeker is not weak. Or indeed when it is not a seeker but anyone else attacking too early. I know people complain about "barbs always wanting to have agro" but agro gives us chi and it gives us 200% weapon attack bonus. Chi allows us to cast sunder-arma which does between 0.5 and 1m AOE dmg on HF not including zerk hits. Of course everything will die without it with a tiny bit more patience and it costs only 10 seconds more, but its kinda annoying that people go to the great lengths to catch up with me and attack before i can even though i use holy path to try and prevent them from being able to. It seems people think it is a challenge to be faster and steal agro from the barb to render them useless and slow down things down.

What positively surprises me though is how few BMs **** it up for the barb by stunning the mobs. I live in the happy assumption that this is because they understand that it is making things harder for us and not because they were always laze and have never even considered using that skill please leave me with this assumption

I do blame both the vortex and BB skill though. Not just for this specific example, but for contributing to the dumbing down of the gamer community as a whole.


*not just seekers but most people seem to be rather **** though, whenever i tell people in clericless, unbuffed FW squads not to attack the fire vile because i am first going to invoke, then remake chi, then spark, 90-95% of the cases they do attack anyway and die)

It's pretty funny how people whine at barbs for being aggro-obsessed (though some barbs go over the top with that and rage if a competent tank dares to steal their aggro...) and then you see them crying in worldchat for a barb to come and save their FSP squad (at which they will rage at once again for not holding aggro on frog when they aren't giving him any time to). I do admit I tend to steal aggro on stuff often but that depends on the barb I'm running with . My barb partner manages to hold aggro from me pretty easily and he's actually good at his class for one.

I wonder how many BM's stun large groups of mobs which a weakish tank is handling, while having the fact that stunning mobs makes them reset their attack animations so they will all hit at the same time and most likely cause a charmbypass in mind.
^I know that's not what you meant, you probably meant you wanted to get hit for chi/attack, but I was reminded of that too .

You also mentioned BB... oh that brings up so many more stories...

For one I don't BB at a lot of things in WS, because I prefer debuffing/dding and healing people that way. I find that BB restricts my freedom quite a lot and I can actually focus more when I'm not in it. Infact, the other day I recall getting raged at by your typical 7-8k hp aps sin that kept getting oneshot by the bosses, because I apparently was a bad cleric for letting him die. So whatya know, healing oneshots is possible now too. I might've been able to keep him alive if I had demon SoR, but I'm too unlucky for that right now . He did end up ragequitting the squad though and we all sighed in relief.

And then it seems some people don't like me tanking their WS bosses in VD >_>. Really the BB-craze has caused people to think a cleric that doesn't BB is the absolute worst and clerics cannot be DD's nor tanks nor do everything at once without needing BB. Even though defense and bosses in WS are a piece of cake in VD with the VD-heals and elven boon making them not even require the use of a single HP pot . As for fire vile, I'm starting to practice interrupting his buff on my cleric via earthquake . It's a shame that I actually have to do the interrupt job in FSP's that way too.

But this isn't about Clerics, so my apologies for going a bit off there .

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver

Medaka - Morai wrote: »

It's pretty funny how people whine at barbs for being aggro-obsessed (though some barbs go over the top with that and rage if a competent tank dares to steal their aggro...) and then you see them crying in worldchat for a barb to come and save their FSP squad (at which they will rage at once again for not holding aggro on frog when they aren't giving him any time to). I do admit I tend to steal aggro on stuff often but that depends on the barb I'm running with . My barb partner manages to hold aggro from me pretty easily and he's actually good at his class for one.

I wonder how many BM's stun large groups of mobs which a weakish tank is handling, while having the fact that stunning mobs makes them reset their attack animations so they will all hit at the same time and most likely cause a charmbypass in mind.
^I know that's not what you meant, you probably meant you wanted to get hit for chi/attack, but I was reminded of that too .

You also mentioned BB... oh that brings up so many more stories...

For one I don't BB at a lot of things in WS, because I prefer debuffing/dding and healing people that way. I find that BB restricts my freedom quite a lot and I can actually focus more when I'm not in it. Infact, the other day I recall getting raged at by your typical 7-8k hp aps sin that kept getting oneshot by the bosses, because I apparently was a bad cleric for letting him die. So whatya know, healing oneshots is possible now too. I might've been able to keep him alive if I had demon SoR, but I'm too unlucky for that right now . He did end up ragequitting the squad though and we all sighed in relief.

And then it seems some people don't like me tanking their WS bosses in VD >_>. Really the BB-craze has caused people to think a cleric that doesn't BB is the absolute worst and clerics cannot be DD's nor tanks nor do everything at once without needing BB. Even though defense and bosses in WS are a piece of cake in VD with the VD-heals and elven boon making them not even require the use of a single HP pot . As for fire vile, I'm starting to practice interrupting his buff on my cleric via earthquake . It's a shame that I actually have to do the interrupt job in FSP's that way too.

But this isn't about Clerics, so my apologies for going a bit off there .

Not to derail the thread, but if you're tanking....then I don't think that anyone should care how its done, so long as you don't endanger the squad with your method. You choose to go in UVD mode as the tank....so I don't see why they're complaining so much, so long as it does not put the squad in jeopardy. Also, true...that is a shame that you have to do the interrupt job in FSP too...

That said, back on topic to vortex... Lol. b:laugh

WannaBM - Archosaur

Medaka - Morai wrote: »

. I do admit I tend to steal aggro on stuff often but that depends on the barb I'm running with . My barb partner manages to hold aggro from me pretty easily and he's actually good at his class for one.

Often it doesnt depend on the barb. It is about attacking early. Like said, you pull, you invoke and before you can cast someone took agro so you dont get chi to cast arma. (or not even sunder if they are really fast and you used your genie during the pull)

Or similarly what still happens every day: mellee APS attackers run to mob, they spark and some ranged dip**** attacks and pulls the mob/boss away. b:angry


And of course when fighting things that need tanking like toad, everyone should adept to the barb they are with and not blame the barb if you steal agro. If its got loads of HP for its refine level, its probably a vit barb so you hold back. If you dont see the stomp of the king animation its holding agro with only ream and devour so you hold back even more. If its got mediocre equipment on top of it, you basically just watch and let the axes do the work

Medaka - Morai

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Often it doesnt depend on the barb. It is about attacking early. Like said, you pull, you invoke and before you can cast someone took agro so you dont get chi to cast arma. (or not even sunder if they are really fast and you used your genie during the pull)

Or similarly what still happens every day: mellee APS attackers run to mob, they spark and some ranged dip**** attacks and pulls the mob/boss away. b:angry


And of course when fighting things that need tanking like toad, everyone should adept to the barb they are with and not blame the barb if you steal agro. If its got loads of HP for its refine level, its probably a vit barb so you hold back. If you dont see the stomp of the king animation its holding agro with only ream and devour so you hold back even more. If its got mediocre equipment on top of it, you basically just watch and let the axes do the work

Yeah, I usually steal aggro on stuff I know I can handle and it helps having my barb partner there because he isn't going to sit by and try to aggro but instead will start DDing (which he does really well as he isn't a vit build) so in the end everything goes down fast and smooth.

I like to compare those vortexing seekers to the melee attackers that rush to mobs nowadays. Though I personally prefer running in melee range on some bosses to use the 2 melee aoes as well while DDing because it becomes an infinite ongoing chain of skills that way and the damage that comes out of it is really good. Even so, I've had ranged anythings stand too far away and move my bosses away while I'm sparking >_>. But yeah, I see a lot of seekers rush-vortex anything, even groups of 3 mobs....

I do hold back on toad even though I can tank it myself, because the squad feels safer that way . I do hit the boss but I do so with a lower sword and normally I'd also spam HF the boss. It really helps given the amount of time I've played a cleric, because it made me be on a constant check of my surroundings and my squad window aswell as when I can drop heals on someone (after they got the first hit/aggro skill in). That can apply to my seeker really easily except that the heals become attacks.


Going a bit back on blur over vortex that was mentioned here. A neat thing about blur is that once you cast it, with any attack level buffs or any weapon on, if you swap to something lower or higher than that, blur does not change at all. I found this handy in NW while capping because I had the feeling I'd get mobbed, I would swap to offense setup and pop up blur then swap back to defense one not many people would expect a r8r sword to do that much blur damage would they?

Sadly even if we provide alternatives to vortex and show people that vortex isn't everything... nothing changes >_>.

Vortex is THE skill because:

It's the only constant aoe that works with BP.
It's the best damaging constant aoe.
It gives seekers the ability to "tank" certain things earlier than they really could thanks to BP heals.
It allows people to be the ultimate lazyarses while providing them with an excuse for it.
It's overstimated by other people thus making them actually want seekers to do it all the time.

Well, I'll admit it's mainly the last 2 points that caused so many seekers to use it and it's a disappointment .