Modify Current debuff mechanics

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

As pointed out in several other threads and forums i am opening this post to discuss if and how to rework the debuffs mechanics in pwi.

Since the arrival of Primal Defense Passive Skills, everyone could notice a heavy drop in their debuff efficiency, cause in fact debuffs are always calculated upon target base resistances value, then that debuff value is subtracted from the global target resistances value..
this way if a target has multiple buffs, even the hardest debuff will have negligible to no return in terms of damage increase...

all the classes have plenty of debuffs:

BM: Glacial Spike
ARCHER: Thunder Shock, Sage Stormrage
BARB: Devour, Penetrate Armour
ASSASSINS: i just realized assassin class just has amps, so the nerf didnt touch them XD ROFL
SEEKER: Ion spike, QPQ-fortify combo
WIZARD: Undine strike
CLERIC: Elemental Seal, Dimensional Seal
VENOMANCER: Ironwood Scarab (Sage, Primal)
PSYCHICS: no debuffs
MYSTICS: Befudding Creeper

i prolly didnt list them all so help me with that...

to this add: Tangling mires, Spark, Elemental weakness, Eruption Fist genie skills

what i am suggesting, from my point of view,

is to modify the debuffs mechanics in order that the debuff will be always calculated on the target global value and then applied to the global value

cause at the moment the debuff skilsl i listed are close to be negligible, especially if target is full buffed and since the next patch will bring lvl 10 passives, at that point listed skills will have no use

also this will give even more the edge to sins, since sins rely just on amps to increase the damage dealt...

discuss b:pleased

Joe - Morai · May 2014

xD it will get even better with all passives going to lvl10 with the next expansion...but they simply cant change the mechanics that easily.

Or they would have to just modify the debuffs in the way that they reduce over-all defenses and not just equipment value...that would be a complete mess imho. Seeker/Archer/Barbs/BMs/Wizards could then reduce the respective def to 0...that wouldnt be good at all and you dont want this to happen. Then a metal zerk crit from seeker would show the max possible dmg on players with 0 def...them 500k DMG on max geared players =P

EDIT: PLus that wouldnt be wise because if you enhance debuffs even more then you will completely **** any class over that got no debuffs or negligable ones like psy/venos/cleric (Sage)/Mystics/Sins =P...that wouldnt be good at all xD

EDIT2: I just came up with a great idea. Why not give any class a certain skill that reduces their respective element to absolute 0, no matter what buffs the target has got. But that one needs to have limitations like a long channeling/cast time and at least 5 min CD. But that would give any class a possibility to kill another class + they would still need some skill for the right timing and all. I would love this.

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2014

There's also Demon Venomous Scarab that has a 30% wood debuff. Personally, I'd write Redstone Venomworm instead of just "primal" (ironwood) since, I think, the game treats it as a new skill altogether.

I generally support the idea of enhancing the debuffs a bit but I do not support making them overly strong to the point that they make the defence passives pointless or less useful etc. It is bad, however, if updates make debuffs less useful/worth it. We aren't talking about a single skill here but a number of skills from various classes (and genies).

Zoldi - Morai · May 2014

I understand your concern and maybe i could support the idea but I think that this is something intended by the staff and the devs and that nothing will be done against that.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

There's also Demon Venomous Scarab that has a 30% wood debuff. Personally, I'd write Redstone Venomworm instead of just "primal" (ironwood) since, I think, the game treats it as a new skill altogether.

I generally support the idea of enhancing the debuffs a bit but I do not support making them overly strong to the point that they make the defence passives pointless or less useful etc. It is bad, however, if updates make debuffs less useful/worth it. We aren't talking about a single skill here but a number of skills from various classes (and genies).

well you have to consider that defense passives are not pointless in any circumstance, cause ofc having a higher value of res will lead the debuff to be less effective already,

you have to consider the asymptotic physical\elemental resistance to damage reduction function\curve,

to have a debuff that will lead to a significant damage increase you have to reduce target res below the 6000 value = 70% damage reduction, that is roughly a 50% damage increase respect 80% damage reduction <- can be considered endgame res value

but with the current debuff mechanics its like a double nerf for debuffs,

cause your debuff will have to be subtracted from the "passived" resistance value (that at endgame we are talking about 30kish), that is actually 56% more than how it was and soon it will be almost doubled (80%)

and then from that improved value you will have to subtract the debuff percentage that is by the way applied on the base "non-passived" value

f.e. Demon Venomous Scarab = 30% debuff

pre-passives base value = 20000 = 83% damage reduction -> 30% debuff = 14000 = 77% damage reduction (roughly a 38% damage increase)

lvl 10 80% passived value = 360000 = 90% damage reduction -> 30% debuff is applied due to current mechanics to the base value so to the 20000 value = -6000 = 30000 = 88% damage reduction (roughly a 20% damage increase but having almost twice as much damage reduction so its a 10% damage increase)

what i am suggesting is a rework in this way:

lvl 10 passived value = 36000 = 90% damage reduction -> 30% debuff is applied to the global value = 25200 = 86% damage reduction (roughly a 40% damage increase but having almost twice as much damage reduction = circa 20% damage increase)

consider that at full buffs players reach resistances values close to 50k making those "little" debuffs to be really already close to be negligible (5% or less damage increase)

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

XxHotxX as I said to you before: These new mechanics give value to archers/venomancers purge.

A purge may mean a Phys debuff for 120% (for taking away bms/cleric buffs) and a magic debuff of 60%, this stacks with the all other normal debuffs.

If you look at Demon Redstone (primal veno ironwood), it takes away 180% pdef if it ever procs, bms glacial spike takes 90%.

The matter of this new update is to give Purge a new level of usefulness, purge gets the ability to make debuffs stronger.

You're a wizard, you're not supposed to debuff, you're supposed to just do damage. And you do have elemental debuffs that stack with cleric's elemental seal, so I'm not sure if you're trolling or what.

Undine strike + Elemental seal = 95% debuff, that, if doing YOUR insane maths would be crazy.
Tangling mire 35%+35% Dimensional Seal/Devour = 70% debuff, that would make a sin take down a barb like butter.
Demon Redstone Venomworm = Target goes negative defenses? x) Barb oneshot by archer/seeker/sin in 3... 2...

That's not supposed to happen, hence why current debuff mechanics work, thank god.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

@ Zoldi:

nope it wasnt intended,
they brung the defense passives to counter the increased skill damage passives

but they didnt realize\calculated, how such huge increase-resistances passive buff completely compromised debuffs mechanics

you also will have to realize that the "purged" word now its a bit obsolete aswell, since in any case, who has this passives is considered perma-buffed

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

XxHotxX as I said to you before: These new mechanics give value to archers/venomancers purge.

A purge may mean a Phys debuff for 120% (for taking away bms/cleric buffs) and a magic debuff of 60%, this stacks with the all other normal debuffs.

If you look at Demon Redstone (primal veno ironwood), it takes away 180% pdef if it ever procs, bms glacial spike takes 90%.

The matter of this new update is to give Purge a new level of usefulness, purge gets the ability to make debuffs stronger.

You're a wizard, you're not supposed to debuff, you're supposed to just do damage. And you do have elemental debuffs that stack with cleric's elemental seal, so I'm not sure if you're trolling or what.

purging a target from 50k resistance value (92% damage reduction) will bring down to passived 36k resistance value (90% damage reduction)

well the number said all already

and lol a wizard class is BASED on debuffs xD since we are DPHers

man please dont make me start to do maths on stacked debuffs of multiples classes, but trust me what you wrote is not correct at all

i'll just give you the maths for the redstone skill

lets say you proc the 180% debuff:

target lvl 10 passived 36000= 90% damage redux -> 180% debuff is applied to the 20k base value = 0 + passive buff value 16000 = 16000 = 80% damage reduction that from the 90% value is a:

100% damage increase (but respect the non passived value, having almost double damage reduction its roughly a real 15% damage increase (base value = 20000= 83% damage reduction, debuffed value = 16000 = 80% damage reduction)

so if you were dealing 1000 damage before passives,
after passives you will deal 650
after passives and 180% debuff you will deal 1150

(this is why Demon Ironwood is waaaaaaay much better, cause starting from a 90% damage redux, it will lower the value to flat 0 that is 1000% damage increase, if you deal 650 damage @ 90% damage redux value, that damage will be 6500 at 0 value)

edited for proper maths

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

purging a target from 50k resistance value (92% damage reduction) will bring down to passived 36k resistance value (90% damage reduction)

well the number said all already

and lol a wizard class is BASED on debuffs xD since we are DPHers

man please dont make me start to do maths on stacked debuffs of multiples classes, but trust me what you wrote is not correct at all

Normal 100% defense
Full passives 180% defense (considering new lv 10 ones)
Full passives +Elemental buff 240% defense. (If we purge here we're back to 180%)
If we was talking about physical defense, 180% demon redstone would bring this value to 0% after purge.

I don't know how much is spark genie skill but 95% debuff in 180% is bringing back to 85% base defense, if we consider 180% is the new 100%, thats a debuff for about 50% original defense.

And if we do debuffs like you want, game will be yet more broken.

Then no, ty.

Joe - Morai · May 2014

I dont really get why it is so hard to just fight against each other self buffed. I dont even consider it a loss if I lose to someone that is buffed. Works for me pretty well. But it is good that the awareness that being fully buffed is nubish rises (:

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Normal 100% defense
Full passives 180% defense (considering new lv 10 ones)
Full passives +Elemental buff 240% defense. (If we purge here we're back to 180%)
If we was talking about physical defense, 180% demon redstone would bring this value to 0% after purge.

I don't know how much is spark genie skill but 95% debuff in 180% is bringing back to 85% base defense, if we consider 180% is the new 100%, thats a debuff for about 50% original defense.

And if we do debuffs like you want, game will be yet more broken.

Then no, ty.

nooooupe...

passssssssssssiveeeeee skiiiiiilllllll aaaaaaact aaaaaaaas a paaaaaaaassssssssssssssivvvvvveeeeeeeeee buuuuuuuuffffffffffff noooooooot aaaaaaaaaassss geeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaar vaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllueeeeeeeee

(they are skills indeed)

in which language do i have to say it to make it understandable? xD

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan go in game right no' and go test debuffs on passived targets

LEGGO right no'

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nooooupe...

passssssssssssiveeeeee skiiiiiilllllll aaaaaaact aaaaaaaas a paaaaaaaassssssssssssssivvvvvveeeeeeeeee buuuuuuuuffffffffffff noooooooot aaaaaaaaaassss geeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaar vaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllueeeeeeeee

(they are skills indeed)

in which language do i have to say it to make it understandable? xD

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan go in game right no' and go test debuffs on passived targets

LEGGO right no'

I have overcalculated it here, defense passives give 8% base gear value per level. Which means at lv 10 it is exactly 80% more gear value, permanent. Its like having an 80% unpurgeable buff. Buffs before and after the passives will give the exact same amount of defenses.

War avatars and meridians are not calculated in this bonus.

I dont mean to be rude, but you're once again showing you have no clue of what you're talking about.

Asterelle - Sanctuary · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

War avatars and meridians are not calculated in this bonus.

Those both add to your equipment defense like the rest of your gear. That later gets multiplied by buffs.

The primal passive is a very large nerf to purge. Doing the math the damage amp from purge is only about 60% as effective as it was before (so it lost 40% of its benefit). After passives will get increased to 80% the effectiveness of purge drops further so that it will only be half as effective as it was before (50% less average damage amp).

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have overcalculated it here, defense passives give 8% base gear value per level. Which means at lv 10 it is exactly 80% more gear value, permanent. Its like having an 80% unpurgeable buff. Buffs before and after the passives will give the exact same amount of defenses.

War avatars and meridians are not calculated in this bonus.

I dont mean to be rude, but you're once again showing you have no clue of what you're talking about.

xD cards and meridians are included in the passive bonus

( and i am the one that has no clues :S )

cmon man you didnt even know how to do the maternity quest and you trashtalk me w\o bringing any proper\confirmed\calculated math or argument

stay in topic and bring numbers that i will be glad to prove them wrong

Azura - Lost City · May 2014

I think debuffs are still pretty strong...Making debuffs stronger would make the game more stupid.

Paralized-->new tangling mire (stronger)-->2 sins-->dead in 1 second.

Like if it wasn't hard enough to survive.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

Total defense = Base gear value * (1 + 0.8 (From passive lv 10) + 0.6 (if cleric buff) + 0.6 (If bm lv 10 buff)

Suppose its 1000 gear value (to make maths easier)
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 3.000 (with cleric + bm buff, this is 300% base gear value).
With both buffs and tangling mire + dimensional seal:
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.6 + 0.6 - 0.35 - 0.35) = 2.300
With Purge + Redstone Venomworm:
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 - 0.5) = 1200 (from 1800, from 3000 full buffs)
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 - 1.8) = 0 (from 1800, from 3000 full buffs) (demon redstone procs)

according to YOUR crazy maths, this would be
3000 - 35% - 35% = 1.267,5 = Ok it is less than the "70%" it would rather be, but still undervalue the buffs and defense passives which are for 240% or something.

I would be more inclined to agree if you said: Increase Tangling mire, Dimensional/Elemental Seal to 50% and undine strike to about 80%, to give a little bit more balance against buffs, but even still, a purged person with comboed debuffs could reach 0 or negative value defenses which is pretty much game breaking.

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

I think debuffs are still pretty strong...Making debuffs stronger would make the game more stupid.

Paralized-->new tangling mire (stronger)-->2 sins-->dead in 1 second.

Like if it wasn't hard enough to survive.

^ This is pretty accurate. I do still use a lot of tangling mire and it is still just as strong.

To change the debuffs system from additive to multiplying, buffs would also have to be changed, resulting in people with over 100k buffed status and 99% damage negating, only killable with debuffs. and this is game breaking.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Total defense = Base gear value * (1 + 0.8 (From passive lv 10) + 0.6 (if cleric buff) + 0.6 (If bm lv 10 buff)

Suppose its 1000 gear value (to make maths easier)
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 3.000 (with cleric + bm buff, this is 300% base gear value).
With both buffs and tangling mire + dimensional seal:
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.6 + 0.6 - 0.35 - 0.35) = 2.300
With Purge + Redstone Venomworm:
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 - 0.5) = 1200 (from 1800, from 3000 full buffs)
Total defense = 1000 * (1 + 0.8 - 1.8) = 0 (from 1800, from 3000 full buffs) (demon redstone procs)

according to YOUR crazy maths, this would be
3000 - 35% - 35% = 1.267,5 = Ok it is less than the "70%" it would rather be, but still undervalue the buffs and defense passives which are for 240% or something.

I would be more inclined to agree if you said: Increase Tangling mire, Dimensional/Elemental Seal to 50% and undine strike to about 80%, to give a little bit more balance against buffs, but even still, a purged person with comboed debuffs could reach 0 or negative value defenses which is pretty much game breaking.

^ This is pretty accurate. I do still use a lot of tangling mire and it is still just as strong.

To change the debuffs system from additive to multiplying, buffs would also have to be changed, resulting in people with over 100k buffed status and 99% damage negating, only killable with debuffs. and this is game breaking.

nope again its all wrong,

buffs and debuff are calculated on the base res value, they wont stack with each other..

i tested a 202% (60+142) fire debuff on my friend with 27k fire res value and i couldnt bring it even close to zero

@azura: but thats a mass pvp concern in regard to paralyze proc, and not to tangling mires...

how did you deal with tangling mires and sins before NH patch?

because a rework this way will bring the debuff "situation" back to pre-NH scenario

also i know you are a support class so you shouldnt care about the damage you actually do, but how do you do damage w\o debuffs?

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nope again its all wrong,

buffs and debuff are calculated on the base res value, they wont stack with each other..

i tested a 202% (60+142) fire debuff on my friend with 27k fire res value and i couldnt bring it even close to zero

@azura: but thats a mass pvp concern in regard to paralyze proc, and not to tangling mires...

how did you deal with tangling mires and sins before NH patch?

because a rework this way will bring the debuff "situation" back to pre-NH scenario

also i know you are a support class so you shouldnt care about the damage you actually do, but how do you do damage w\o debuffs?

That's what I said, read again. They SUM up, not multiply.
means Gear value + 80% gear value + 60% gear value + 60% gear value = 300% gear value. If you look at the damn formula that's exactly what I said.

Now, 202% debuff not bringing close to 0%, I might ask if that friend of yours was fully buffed, or their passive levels, because we can pretty much reach 240% gear values magic defense from Cleric buff PLUS lv 10 passives that doesnt even exist still.

And that brings 2 questions up: Does debuff consider avatars? Does Any of those debuffs have a wrong stating description? Wouldn't be the first time.

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2014

I got completely lost in the maths...maths is really not for me >.>; but I can tell for sure 180% debuff from Redstone doesn't equal 0 physical defence (played around with a friend) unless the target's defence is quite low in which case it means that they probably have bad gear (or just low grade ornaments/shards) which further means that you can (most likely) kill them even without debuffs.. or at least you won't need such 'strong' debuffs.

Prior New Horizons the 180% might have been good, but now it isn't as much (*goes to a corner and cries for learning Redstone*).

I guess it's not too big of a deal right now but consider the upcoming update which appears to give us more levels of passives, more tiers of nuema plus the fact that (at least on my server) people have started leveling their cards, some of them got some sets (3 card sets or more) and so on. Then there's the people completing their Meridians by now, new titles that add up if you do all of them (not sure if these count in this situation though? I'd assume they work like passives).

But as I said, I don't want the debuffs to become too strong but if our defences/passives/whatever raise too high then debuffs will lose their value and I just really like the debuff (and amp) side of the game.

On another note, all classes have the ability to cast some sort of debuff or amp (including class-specific genie skills) so I wouldn't say that "x class shouldn't amp" or "x class is not meant to debuff". At least that's my opinion.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

It doesnt equal to 0 defense because of the buffs.

Base defense Plus Buffs+passives = 240% mag/300% phys (on lv 10 passives)
300 - 180 = 120%
now if person is unbuffed with lv 10 passives they shall have 100% + 80% from passive and 180-180 would theoretically mean 0%.
Being that redstone does stack with Tangling mire, im afraid demon redstone might be one, if not the most OP debuff when comboed with purge and AMP.

When talking about %, the results are always proportional regardless of how much defenses people have.

And having more defenses to counter debuffs pretty much gives the game more competition, less 1~2 shot kills and more PvP. As, in the same time it makes an even bigger gap between over/undergeared persons, or maybe in a miracle math, balancing the game.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It doesnt equal to 0 defense because of the buffs.

Base defense Plus Buffs+passives = 240% mag/300% phys (on lv 10 passives)
300 - 180 = 120%
now if person is unbuffed with lv 10 passives they shall have 100% + 80% from passive and 180-180 would theoretically mean 0%.
Being that redstone does stack with Tangling mire, im afraid demon redstone might be one, if not the most OP debuff when comboed with purge and AMP.

When talking about %, the results are always proportional regardless of how much defenses people have.

And having more defenses to counter debuffs pretty much gives the game more competition, less 1~2 shot kills and more PvP. As, in the same time it makes an even bigger gap between over/undergeared persons, or maybe in a miracle math, balancing the game.

man would you stop this?

you are repeating the same thing 100 times

it's wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111one

debuffs are not applied on the global value, they are applied on the base value after buff bonuses are applied aaaaaaaaaaaaand guess what passive skills are a buff

go and test it yourself

Azura - Lost City · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

@azura: but thats a mass pvp concern in regard to paralyze proc, and not to tangling mires...

how did you deal with tangling mires and sins before NH patch?

because a rework this way will bring the debuff "situation" back to pre-NH scenario

also i know you are a support class so you shouldnt care about the damage you actually do, but how do you do damage w\o debuffs?

I would get in fox form and run until tangling mire ran off.

I think you are forgetting that some classes got skills that deal more damage too, wizards got one too. So, that more than makes up for the extra resistance of new buffs.

As for how I do damage w/o debuffs: I don't do the damage, I apply the debuffs and someone else does the kill. Rarely I kill someone, but when luck is on my side I can pop up big numbers (see sig).

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

On top of Asterelle's point which seems to have been completely ignored, I have to mention one thing once again because Hot really doesn't seem to get it:

If you debuff someone and bring their reduction from 90% to 80%, that is a 100% damage amp, period. The fact that their "gear reduction" is "only 83%" instead of 90% is completely irrelevant. Before the debuff, they were taking half as much damage as they are now. Calling that a "real increase of 17.6%" because they're taking 17.6% more damage than they would with no buffs/passives -- when they're actually taking 100% more damage than they were before they were debuffed - is absurdly misleading, to the extent that I really see no explanation other than that you are doing it intentionally.

OverHealed - Harshlands · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

As pointed out in several other threads and forums i am opening this post to discuss if and how to rework the debuffs mechanics in pwi.

Since the arrival of Primal Defense Passive Skills, everyone could notice a heavy drop in their debuff efficiency, cause in fact debuffs are always calculated upon target base resistances value, then that debuff value is subtracted from the global target resistances value..
this way if a target has multiple buffs, even the hardest debuff will have negligible to no return in terms of damage increase...

all the classes have plenty of debuffs:

BM: Glacial Spike
ARCHER: Thunder Shock, Sage Stormrage
BARB: Devour, Penetrate Armour
ASSASSINS: i just realized assassin class just has amps, so the nerf didnt touch them XD ROFL
SEEKER: Ion spike, QPQ-fortify combo
WIZARD: Undine strike
CLERIC: Elemental Seal, Dimensional Seal
VENOMANCER: Ironwood Scarab (Sage, Primal)
PSYCHICS: no debuffs
MYSTICS: Befudding Creeper

i prolly didnt list them all so help me with that...

to this add: Tangling mires, Spark, Elemental weakness, Eruption Fist genie skills

what i am suggesting, from my point of view,

is to modify the debuffs mechanics in order that the debuff will be always calculated on the target global value and then applied to the global value

cause at the moment the debuff skilsl i listed are close to be negligible, especially if target is full buffed and since the next patch will bring lvl 10 passives, at that point listed skills will have no use

also this will give even more the edge to sins, since sins rely just on amps to increase the damage dealt...

discuss b:pleased

Do not say passive to only mean defense passive.

Sure the skill damage passive at level 7 is 14%, but it will be able to be level 10 too.

Might want to consider this into the calculating and whatnot.

Asterelle - Sanctuary · May 2014

OverHealed - Harshlands wrote: »

Do not say passive to only mean defense passive.

Sure the skill damage passive at level 7 is 14%, but it will be able to be level 10 too.

Might want to consider this into the calculating and whatnot.

That's a flat amp that's equally effective when buffed and debuffed.
Well it's flat for 9 of the classes, it doesn't work with archer normal arrows.

trands · May 2014

I prefer it as it is now tbh. 1vs1 is something I find boring and pointless, especially since buff pills exist. As it is now, everyone got tankier and harder to kill at equal gear. It made teamwork and aa more important, as 1 person won't just easily drop a target as was possible before with super debuff ability. Pre New Horizons debuffs were just too powerful and overly important.

Having debuffs act on global value is something I'm opposed to. It will make all buffs pointless and any form of group pvp just a sum of 1vs1 fights. There is a limited number of classes that can consistently debuff to 0 on anyone and anyone then. That's not something I want to see again.

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's a flat amp that's equally effective when buffed and debuffed.
Well it's flat for 9 of the classes, it doesn't work with archer normal arrows.

Nah, it's flat for archers too.

Flat at zero. b:surrender

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

On top of Asterelle's point which seems to have been completely ignored, I have to mention one thing once again because Hot really doesn't seem to get it:

If you debuff someone and bring their reduction from 90% to 80%, that is a 100% damage amp, period. The fact that their "gear reduction" is "only 83%" instead of 90% is completely irrelevant. Before the debuff, they were taking half as much damage as they are now. Calling that a "real increase of 17.6%" because they're taking 17.6% more damage than they would with no buffs/passives -- when they're actually taking 100% more damage than they were before they were debuffed - is absurdly misleading, to the extent that I really see no explanation other than that you are doing it intentionally.

yes thats a 100% damage increase, too bad the damage improvements gotten by NH features are not even close to match up the damage reduction provided by defense passives

we could bring that 14% amp from skill damage passives in all the maths i've done, but is it really a factor?

you have to consider the damage you were dealing before passives (pre-NH) and after passives

example: pre NH you were hitting 1000 on a target with 20000 res (83% damage redux)...
you apply a 30% debuff, res would drop to 14000 (78% damage redux) ->
circa 33% damage amp -> damage dealt after debuff = 1330

after NH, the damage you would deal @ 20000res (83%) is now 1000 * 14% = 1140 (skill passives),

but the same target now has 31200 res from def passive buff (89% damage redux), that will drop your damage dealt down to 480

you apply a 30% debuff, calculated on the 20000 base cause debuffs mechanics etch.. res would drop to 25200 (86% damage redux)
circa 50% damage amp -> damage dealt = 720

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

yes thats a 100% damage increase, too bad the damage improvements gotten by NH features are not even close to match up the damage reduction provided by defense passives

we could bring that 14% amp from skill damage passives in all the maths i've done, but is it really a factor?

you have to consider the damage you were dealing before passives (pre-NH) and after passives

example: pre NH you were hitting 1000 on a target with 20000 res (83% damage redux)...
you apply a 30% debuff, res would drop to 14000 (78% damage redux) ->
circa 33% damage amp -> damage dealt after debuff = 1330

after NH, the damage you would deal @ 20000res (83%) is now 1000 * 14% = 1140 (skill passives),

but the same target now has 31200 res from def passive buff (89% damage redux), that will drop your damage dealt down to 480

you apply a 30% debuff, calculated on the 20000 base cause debuffs mechanics etch.. res would drop to 25200 (86% damage redux)
circa 50% damage amp -> damage dealt = 720

Yes, you're dealing less damage...

That was, last I checked, the entire point of these passives.

Suprprutty - Lost City · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Yes, you're dealing less damage...

That was, last I checked, the entire point of these passives.

Passives/War Avatars/Nuema and the rebirth itself (moar points) gave people too much of an attack boost so they had to balance it by giving us defence too. But this defence cannot be purged/debuffed itself so the debuffs are weaker than before.

If they keep this up, as it seems they are (more passive lvl, more nuema lvl, people getting S sets eventually etc.) they'll lose even more value and make purge less valuable (dont think it will be useless though).

If debuffs become neglible/less valuable we'll have to rely on amps much more as those don't get affected but that would limit the battles to certain combos which will become rather predictable. I mean it's already predictable the BM will stun and then proceed to use dragons on people in TW or other mass PvP. It's predictable that a demon veno will try to use paranova. Or we'll get an army of demon venos taking turns in throwing demon ironwood for the proc lol.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Suprprutty - Lost City wrote: »

Passives/War Avatars/Nuema and the rebirth itself (moar points) gave people too much of an attack boost so they had to balance it by giving us defence too. But this defence cannot be purged/debuffed itself so the debuffs are weaker than before.

If they keep this up, as it seems they are (more passive lvl, more nuema lvl, people getting S sets eventually etc.) they'll lose even more value and make purge less valuable (dont think it will be useless though).

If debuffs become neglible/less valuable we'll have to rely on amps much more as those don't get affected but that would limit the battles to certain combos which will become rather predictable. I mean it's already predictable the BM will stun and then proceed to use dragons on people in TW or other mass PvP. It's predictable that a demon veno will try to use paranova. Or we'll get an army of demon venos taking turns in throwing demon ironwood for the proc lol.

^this

@ Suprputty: the point of the entire post is that you deal less damage because the debuff mechanic is applied to the base value and not on the global value...

re-quoting myself for clarity:

example: pre NH you were hitting 1000 on a target with 20000 res (83% damage redux)...
you apply a 30% debuff, res would drop to 14000 (78% damage redux) ->
circa 33% damage amp -> damage dealt after debuff = 1330

after NH, the damage you would deal @ 20000res (83%) is now 1000 * 14% = 1140 (skill passives),

but the same target now has 31200 res from def passive buff (89% damage redux), that will drop your damage dealt down to 480

you apply a 30% debuff, calculated on the 20000 base cause debuffs mechanics etch.. res would drop to 25200 (86% damage redux)
circa 50% damage amp -> damage dealt = 720

suggested rework:

the damage you would deal @ 20000res (83%) is now 1000 * 14% = 1140 (skill passives),

but the same target now has 31200 res from def passive buff (89% damage redux), that will drop your damage dealt down to 480

you apply a 30% debuff, calculated on the 31200 value cause of the rework i am suggesting, res will drop down to 21840 value (84% damage redux)
circa 65% damage amp -> damage dealt = 1120

still less than Pre-NH scenario, but it's something and it would make debuff skills worth something...

consider this maths is on a full purged target, if the target has any kind of buffs, the current debuffed damage value (720 value) would drop waaay and way more

Modify Current debuff mechanics

Comments

Categories