Modify Current debuff mechanics

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

what i want pointed out in that time was able kill with one shot egually gear only 1. u was self buffed or 2. u was sin, now example 2 josd wizz cant kill each other, or 2 psy etc (so not zerk depend class's) or just take 30min but now also debuff based casters got harder time vs melee's (included sin) but same time other class with crit+zerk effect have alot more chance for killing u and that dont need time like class based debuff what was main subject of topic, egually geared full buffed bm is far from 1hit with 3rd josd before primal too, atleast if we check the videos from bm section
(except if lost the buffs and was heavy debuffed and in pass pvp everyone die if focus, thats the point in more people focus 1 [till similiar or egually geared])

Of course all classes get pwnt once they're focused, I NEVER said otherwise, if you think a caster, or archer, or even a seeker, gets into a position where they are ganked, as OFTEN as a true melee, your sorely mistaken... that or your being baised/blind.

Though a barb does indeed have quite the badass skills to withstand a gank or two thanks to their built in skills, and the fact that they are indeed the tank class, still melees get into ganks MORE o f t e n than casters/archers/seekers. - Hell even sins have a way to more or less be picky about who they attack, not everyone is always prepared/able to knock one out of stealth.

Now obviously a bm, barb, and even a sin can withstand a gank better for the most part than casters/archers, or at least they were able too until that purify proc became main stream, though to be fair thanks to the paralyze skill more bms seems back in mass pvp, and ergo more people/ways to combat the pesky proc... which all leads to bringing that broken purify proc back down to earth quite well... thankfully.

As far as the zerk crit giving melees a better chance to kill others, well I for one believe that even outs with the fact that they HAVE to get up close, and even survive a gank, (Though aye that wont ALWAYS be in a situation where they are being ganked, still, they do have to close the distances) which is not an easy task to do in mass pvp. Though there is indeed a very big exception to that, and that is indeed seekers, they are without a doubt very oped when it comes to ditching out damage, and they can also take quite the punch, still they can be quite easy to lock down, unlike those casters that were one shotting anyone and everyone in sight, and being further helped by a broken proc.



As for the marrows, being effected in 1 on 1, I really do not care, the game just isn't geared towards 1 on 1 fights, thanks to nw, and TW. If the game had an event where we were pitted against each other 1 on 1, and that had really badass rewards, then I think we should focus more on making it balanced for 1 on 1, but until then I really think they need to balance out for mass pvp, and doing their damnest to make sure people aren't leaving one class behind in droves for another much easier class to play, (edit) that of course being that one class is owning the rest/one class being so easy to dominate repeatedly.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Of course all classes get pwnt once they're focused, I NEVER said otherwise, if you think a caster, or archer, or even a seeker, gets into a position where they are ganked, as OFTEN as a true melee, your sorely mistaken... that or your being baised/blind.

Though a barb does indeed have quite the badass skills to withstand a gank or two thanks to their built in skills, and the fact that they are indeed the tank class, still melees get into ganks MORE o f t e n than casters/archers/seekers. - Hell even sins have a way to more or less be picky about who they attack, not everyone is always prepared/able to knock one out of stealth.

Now obviously a bm, barb, and even a sin can withstand a gank better for the most part than casters/archers, or at least they were able too until that purify proc became main stream, though to be fair thanks to the paralyze skill more bms seems back in mass pvp, and ergo more people/ways to combat the pesky proc... which all leads to bringing that broken purify proc back down to earth quite well... thankfully.

As far as the zerk crit giving melees a better chance to kill others, well I for one believe that even outs with the fact that they HAVE to get up close, and even survive a gank, (Though aye that wont ALWAYS be in a situation where they are being ganked, still, they do have to close the distances) which is not an easy task to do in mass pvp. Though there is indeed a very big exception to that, and that is indeed seekers, they are without a doubt very oped when it comes to ditching out damage, and they can also take quite the punch, still they can be quite easy to lock down, unlike those casters that were one shotting anyone and everyone in sight, and being further helped by a broken proc.



As for the marrows, being effected in 1 on 1, I really do not care, the game just isn't geared towards 1 on 1 fights, thanks to nw, and TW. If the game had an event where we were pitted against each other 1 on 1, and that had really badass rewards, then I think we should focus more on making it balanced for 1 on 1, but until then I really think they need to balance out for mass pvp, and doing their damnest to make sure people aren't leaving one class behind in droves for another much easier class to play, (edit) that of course being that one class is owning the rest/one class being so easy to dominate repeatedly.

maybe talk about end game bm who got over 40k mdef and same time 30k+ pdef die fast with josd gank? lol in my faction the bm dont got problem with it, before end game every class die fast, even wizz/mystic etc could get 1 hit by archer or even from another cast if undergeared

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

maybe talk about end game bm who got over 40k mdef and same time 30k+ pdef die fast with josd gank? lol in my faction the bm dont got problem with it, before end game every class die fast, even wizz/mystic etc could get 1 hit by archer or even from another cast if undergeared

That is what I have been saying. TT I am not disputing that, of course all classes become badass when in true end game gear, but before that they HAVE that gear they HAVE to fall back on their own built in skills, a bm gets put into numerous positions where they have to tank multiple people with little to no way of absorbing damage other than the double edged (cut both you and me) sword that is/are marrows, or go prepared to the teeth with apos/charms, obviously all classes use those, but again no where to the extent that a bm has too. (Something that so few people seem to want to understand about this whole thing/for bms... it really is quite silly/hard for me to fathom why everyone refuses to see that main point.)

Seriously reread my post, I can't reiterate it any clearer. Out of ALL the classes while undergeared a bm has it the hardest, period, while in mass pvp. Though sadly to way too many of you this seems absolutely bias, and in some ways you all may be right, but really if you had to get up close to others, and were under constant fire every-time you attack you'd feel the pain that I, and so many other bms felt.... specifically before the passives, but after all the passives, it has helped significantly.


EDIT: I have NEVER said, that bms were completely helpless, there is a BIG difference between a class being the weakest/hardest to play and enjoy amongst it's peers, and being flat out helpless. I am fully aware that it has at the very least been implied by me on numerous occasions, still there is a big difference between a class being the weakest, and a class being completely defenseless.

Something can be the weakest, and still have ways of potentially tipping things back into their favor slightly (which bms do indeed have) but they hardly do enough, especially when there are so many people running around, yes all classes deal with that same issue, but no where to the extent that bms have too.


*face meets palm*


Either way don't expect me to reply to you again in this thread, regardless of how much I may disagree with what you will almost undoubtedly post in reply. Its pushing way too much... in the direction of off topicness.

XXHotXx - Morai

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That is what I have been saying. TT I am not disputing that, of course all classes become badass when in true end game gear, but before that they HAVE that gear they HAVE to fall back on their own built in skills, a bm gets put into numerous positions where they have to tank multiple people with little to no way of absorbing damage other than the double edged (cut both you and me) sword that is/are marrows, or go prepared to the teeth with apos/charms, obviously all classes use those, but again no where to the extent that a bm has too. (Something that so few people seem to want to understand about this whole thing/for bms... it really is quite silly/hard for me to fathom why everyone refuses to see that main point.)

Seriously reread my post, I can't reiterate it any clearer. Out of ALL the classes while undergeared a bm has it the hardest, period, while in mass pvp. Though sadly to way too many of you this seems absolutely bias, and in some ways you all may be right, but really if you had to get up close to others, and were under constant fire every-time you attack you'd feel the pain that I, and so many other bms felt.... specifically before the passives, but after all the passives, it has helped significantly.


EDIT: I have NEVER said, that bms were completely helpless, there is a BIG difference between a class being the weakest/hardest to play and enjoy amongst it's peers, and being flat out helpless. I am fully aware that it has at the very least been implied by me on numerous occasions, still there is a big difference between a class being the weakest, and a class being completely defenseless.

Something can be the weakest, and still have ways of potentially tipping things back into their favor slightly (which bms do indeed have) but they hardly do enough, especially when there are so many people running around, yes all classes deal with that same issue, but no where to the extent that bms have too.


*face meets palm*


Either way don't expect me to reply to you again in this thread, regardless of how much I may disagree with what you will almost undoubtedly post in reply. Its pushing way too much... in the direction of off topicness.

BMs are a offtank support class...

they are not pure tanks, they are not DDs

they are supposed to tank slightly while poking, harassing, CCing, disrupting enemy team key members and then kite away...

tho happens that new passives blasted out debuffs efficiency, and BM class having marrows and bell self buffs, completely devastate debuffs values if those are landed on them...

this passives made BM become a full Tank\Support class, they can do their support job in complete safety even if unsharded against endgame... thanks god the cd on their paralyze is reasonable or we would've a Mighty Swing Part 2

also this def passves made deity BM build viable, and i leave it to your intelligence the ludicrious amount of damage they could land stacking amps, 40% hp skill and zerkcrits

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seriously reread my post, I can't reiterate it any clearer. Out of ALL the classes while undergeared a bm has it the hardest, period, while in mass pvp. Though sadly to way too many of you this seems absolutely bias, and in some ways you all may be right, but really if you had to get up close to others, and were under constant fire every-time you attack you'd feel the pain that I, and so many other bms felt.... specifically before the passives, but after all the passives, it has helped significantly.

lol, seriously u played with other class when they was undergeared?
even a barb easier kill than a bm who is tank not like bm lol

Fissile - Archosaur

With everyone's defenses so high and rebuffs nerfed it gives a huge advantage to classes with attack level and defense level modifying skills (or the handful of skills that bypass defense levels).

The passive defenses would have been better implemented as a number of defense levels or an increase to base defenses (I.e. counted as part of 100% base defense).

The end result is no one does significant amounts of damage to fully buffed JoSD characters unless they are DoT/DS sharded or they are sins, seekers, or psys.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

BMs are a offtank support class...

they are not pure tanks, they are not DDs

they are supposed to tank slightly while poking, harassing, CCing, disrupting enemy team key members and then kite away...

tho happens that new passives blasted out debuffs efficiency, and BM class having marrows and bell self buffs, completely devastate debuffs values if those are landed on them...

this passives made BM become a full Tank\Support class, they can do their support job in complete safety even if unsharded against endgame... thanks god the cd on their paralyze is reasonable or we would've a Mighty Swing Part 2

also this def passves made deity BM build viable, and i leave it to your intelligence the ludicrious amount of damage they could land stacking amps, 40% hp skill and zerkcrits

Everything your saying is more or less what I have been saying, the passives have made bms a much more reasonable class to be on, and its also why I am against the 'boost' or whatever you want to call it, it was far too easy for people to one shot others before the passives, that I did NOT like.

EDIT: For the record... I CAN see why you would be annoyed/upset about it, still I'd prefer it if things stayed as they are now... surely the less one shots there are, (provided that they are indeed in rather decent gear... like no less than 5/6 g16 gear.) the more people will stay around on any class, and actually gear it up all the way, to see what they're truly capable of.... Something of which I/quite a few other bms seriously questioned before NH, but I do admit I am not questioning about whether or not to gear up my bm anymore, I am now questioning how, and even when... NOW... I am actually excited to get true end game gear on it.

Like I said the passives have HELPED everyone, nigh regardless of their gear.

--


@ Shadow

I am aware that I said I wouldn't do this but seriously. <<

Rofl you continue to ignore my main point, bm's may be able to survive better than casters/archers, but casters and archers, and even seekers are in FAR FEWER positions where they have to tank damage from every which way, a bm has to tank the damage from every single direction every single time they attack.

Yes I have played every class, I also admit I haven't played them all in mass pvp, but seriously it does NOT take a genius to know what each class has to go through in order to attack/do SOMETHING while undergeared, and they are up against the oped, therefore I am fairly aware of what everyone of them is capable off, though yes I am no expert on all of them. (This is NOT about tank-ability, just ease of access/playing in mass pvp while under-geared, and up against the oped.)

I DO have a barb, and an account stash, that 'same' undergeared link that I shared a while back in another thread, is the exact same gear that I took on it into mass pvp, and thanks to its much stronger ability to tank thanks to invoke, solid shiled, cornered beast (hell I didn't even have it at the time), etc, makes it a much harder class for people to take down, and a much easier one to play/stand up to the oped a little, it is extremely hard for a bm to do that. As it has been stated before a bm was and still is a support class, a lot of bms before the NH update, felt the very same way that I did/still do to an extent, and they left their bms behind in favor another class.


So yea... that question you asked... right back at you?

---

The passives still haven't made anyone invincible/unable to be controlled for a stupid ridiculous amount of time, sure it may take more people to take someone down, but that is how it should be, provided that they are in half way decent gear, or close to end game gear. (I know I for one still die fairly easily to the oped people on my server, despite the upgrades I have made to my gear/getting the few missing skills that bms can get, but yea I can absolutely see how much of a difference the passives have made.)

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@ Shadow

I am aware that I said I wouldn't do this but seriously. <<

Rofl you continue to ignore my main point, bm's may be able to survive better than casters/archers, but casters and archers, and even seekers are in FAR FEWER positions where they have to tank damage from every which way, a bm has to tank the damage from every single direction every single time they attack.

Yes I have played every class, I also admit I haven't played them all in mass pvp, but seriously it does NOT take a genius to know what each class has to go through in order to attack/do SOMETHING while undergeared, and they are up against the oped, therefore I am fairly aware of what everyone of them is capable off, though yes I am no expert on all of them. (This is NOT about tank-ability, just ease of access/playing in mass pvp while under-geared, and up against the oped.)

I DO have a barb, and an account stash, that 'same' undergeared link that I shared a while back in another thread, is the exact same gear that I took on it into mass pvp, and thanks to its much stronger ability to tank thanks to invoke, solid shiled, cornered beast (hell I didn't even have it at the time), etc, makes it a much harder class for people to take down, and a much easier one to play/stand up to the oped a little, it is extremely hard for a bm to do that. As it has been stated before a bm was and still is a support class, a lot of bms before the NH update, felt the very same way that I did/still do to an extent, and they left their bms behind in favor another class.

u also ignore the point, u arent end game but talk about undergeared mass pvp what never was fair also u act like tanking peoples when u undergeared and not tank class, also we talk about end game where everything changeing.... sorry but on this no logic at all if u undergeared in mass pvp without tank class...

barb even got invoke and other **** still take double dmg from skills than marrowed bm and even they supposed to be tank not like bm who got damn much stun and utility controll skill what mean bm isnt need to be tank and 1st in line, they like rush stun etc but isnt going for same roll than barb....

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

u also ignore the point, u arent end game but talk about undergeared mass pvp.... sorry but on this no logic at all

Really?

I'm sorry I didn't realize that one day we all will have the exact same gears.

/sarcasm

Under-geared people will ALWAYS be apart of any and all games, and if they find it too tough/annoying to be on a specific class they will either rage, quit all together, or move to another class.

The sad thing is that SOME of those complaints that I HAD (you know in the past)... would have followed into endgame gear, the odds would still be stacked against bms even if everyone was running around in the same gear. Hell some of those complaints are still very valid, and will indeed follow me into the end game gear, still thanks to the passives, and some of the other NH updates, I am starting to really enjoy my bm again. Despite the fact that it still gets ownt from time to time. (EDIT) which I might add is very much to be expected, I NEVER wanted to become an invincible beast tanking armies of people.

EDIT 2: Obviously every class needs to have some kind of exploitable, and deadly flaw, but when that flaw is too difficult to overcome, the class is just NOT fun to be on at all, hell the bm class arguably has way too many flaws/difficult things to overcome. Still if a flaw is too annoying/difficult to overcome, people WILL leave in one way or another.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Really?

I'm sorry I didn't realize that one day we all will have the exact same gears.

/sarcasm

Under-geared people will ALWAYS be apart of any and all games, and if they find it too tough/annoying to be on a specific class they will either rage, quit all together, or move to another class.

The sad thing is that SOME of those complaints that I HAD (you know in the past)... would have followed into endgame gear, the odds would still be stacked against bms even if everyone was running around in the same gear. Hell some of those complaints are still very valid, and will indeed follow me into the end game gear, still thanks to the passives, and some of the other NH updates, I am starting to really enjoy my bm again. Despite the fact that it still gets ownt from time to time. (EDIT) which I might add is very much to be expected, I NEVER wanted to become an invincible beast tanking armies of people.

thanks to passive others not enjoy the game who worked hard to end game and just waited to wonder where they became sucks damage dealers ... hm that better right?

let say whay if dev team remove zerk from bm because others thing dont need a "tank" class zerk, that also enjoyable or how u feel after u worked hard for maxing ur char and do no dmg compared with barb and seeker? because something similiar happened... or what happen if ur axe ulti one day became reduced to 25% dmg amplify and we say, yes becayse too op with zerk crit and with morai skills or other ****?
i didnt said the best method is what in 1st post was wrote but also not really good when destroy the debuff completly and make damn crapier then even a e.poison

(i don't care about spark nerf anyway)

maybe u not noticed but goal isn't make more squishy the bm, goal is make more viable the class based debuffs what was destroyed.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

thanks to passive others not enjoy the game who worked hard to end game and just waited to wonder where they became sucks damage dealers ... hm that better right?

let say whay if dev team remove zerk from bm because others thing dont need a "tank" class zerk, that also enjoyable or how u feel after u worked hard for maxing ur char and do no dmg compared with barb and seeker??

(i don't care about spark nerf anyway)

You didn't have to add in the example, but aye I hear you, and I do understand it.

There is no denying that each of our 'sides' have valid points, that really shows the flaw in the other's point.

However, I still think that if the oped, whether they're cashers (obviously they worked hard as well, just in a different way, and much faster), or if they did indeed work hard (in game) for their gear, are running around one shotting everyone/or killing them with a stupid ridiculous amount of ease, it absolutely risks alienating/pushing out would be new comers. No ONE likes to feel overwhelmed when they are working for the same goals that others are, regardless of their gear.

(It's not like casters still can't one shot me/others in lesser gear, but they still have had their attacks weakened, in 1 on 1 that is obviously a big difference, but while in mass pvp, and up against several ranged people that slight difference has helped out the undergeared a little, not a lot, but enough to make playing a character... not so.. infuriating.)

EDIT:

As for your second edit about the 'goal', you do realize that a side effect of the proposed change, would make it harder on bms, as well as the other undergeared people, still I do understand why you all are upset about it. (As matter of fact, I think ill back away from this conversation, and leave it at what's already been said.)

Good luck on getting this changed, my voice is the only one (though aye there has been a few who share my sentiment) still it seems that i am the only one that even seems to be remotely against it, I really doubt my stand alone voice is going to keep them from changing it, regardless of how valid my point may be. (hell I am even only slightly against it, as I said I understand the upset stance that a few of you have, still I do believe that less one shots/moments of feeling absolutely overwhelmed is eventually going to bring in more people to 'play with', or bring people out of 'hiding.'

Again good luck, and have fun.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You didn't have to add in the example, but aye I hear you, and I do understand it.

There is no denying that each of our 'sides' have valid points, that really shows the flaw in the other's point.

However, I still think that if the oped, whether they're cashers (obviously they worked hard as well, just in a different way, and much faster), or if they did indeed work hard (in game) for their gear, are running around one shotting everyone/or killing them with a stupid ridiculous amount of ease, it absolutely risks alienating/pushing out would be new comers. No ONE likes to feel overwhelmed when they are working for the same goals that others are, regardless of their gear.

(It's not like casters still can't one shot me/others in lesser gear, but they still have had their attacks weakened, in 1 on 1 that is obviously a big difference, but while in mass pvp, and up against several ranged people that slight difference has helped out the undergeared a little, not a lot, but enough to make playing a character... not so.. infuriating.)

i am didnt chashoping at all, i farmed cube neck my self, yes 270 run, takes alot day, well acctually months, same about grinding for refine etc, overall more than a simple year to getting there (and still no s card set etc only 1 s card overall)
do u know during this years what happened? 1shoted me (seriously) me every class, and not in group fight... even in 1vs1.... i was undergeared, i was ok with dieing in second, still sin kill me from nothing, dont need range or something for that

and what now? still sin nearly 1shot me and my dmg sucks on them and still not rage quited and didnt wanted make my class with uber defence or something but make a slow casting nuke class to lowest dmg output caster without changeing casting times/cooldowns etc is ridicolous aswell after how much peoples used for getting there where are they now....

ridiculos the 1shoting peoples but this is f2p, everywhere this same, atleast i didnt played yet any mmorpg where dont was this...

btw maybe u dont understand, could reduce dmg but keep balance between casters/or debuff aswell, not like for 1 reduce dmg by 20% to another by 50%

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

i am didnt chashoping at all, i farmed cube neck my self, yes 270 run, takes alot day, well acctually months, same about grinding for refine etc, overall more than a simple year to getting there (and still no s card set etc only 1 s card overall)
do u know during this years what happened? 1shoted me (seriously) me every class, and not in group fight... even in 1vs1.... i was undergeared, i was ok with dieing in second, still sin kill me from nothing, dont need range or something for that

and what now? still sin nearly 1shot me and my dmg sucks on them and still not rage quited and didnt wanted make my class with uber defence or something but make a slow casting nuke class to lowest dmg output caster without changeing casting times/cooldowns etc is ridicolous aswell after how much peoples used for getting there where are they now....

ridiculos the 1shoting peoples but this is f2p, everywhere this same, atleast i didnt played yet any mmorpg where dont was this...

btw maybe u dont understand, could reduce dmg but keep balance between casters/or debuff aswell, not like for 1 reduce dmg by 20% to another by 50%

You are C L E A R L Y (to me anyways, and I can safely bet that a few others see it too) missing my points.

--

I am not arguing with you anymore, nor am I going to reiterate my points YET again.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are C L E A R L Y (to me anyways, and I can safely bet that a few others see it too) missing my points.

--

I am not arguing with you anymore, nor am I going to reiterate my points YET again.

i doubt it was clearly because then u understand i am not against the boost a bit lowers (what acctually became more hard after all rebirth and if they add better gear later, so overall will be more gap)

they could do it simple dmg reduction like 3rd spark aswell and nerf/cap the too high debuffs on genie, they could make high flat dmg reduction instead of this, but if they this way then could solve with higher defence passive and change debuff to flat % debuff like veno amplify, sin subsea, psy black voodoo etc, all was nerfed a bit but linear, or u feel veno amplify was op on without purge ur buff? i doubt....still it made difference on damage...
that the point in flat amplify instead defence debuff....

thats why thread was opened i guess...

HESOKA - Raging Tide

It Cant work that way, None of the debuffs in the game actually ever reduced resistance to what the skill says. If they Did than a Tangling Mire and a devour by a Barb Would drop you resistance from say 40k to 4k

Thats whay the debuffing mechanic PWI has works the way it does.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

It Cant work that way, None of the debuffs in the game actually ever reduced resistance to what the skill says. If they Did than a Tangling Mire and a devour by a Barb Would drop you resistance from say 40k to 4k

Thats whay the debuffing mechanic PWI has works the way it does.

but can transform defence debuff to similiar like amplify, so instead doing 60% defence reduction give 35% amplify, 50% to 30% amplify, 40% to 25% amplify, 30% to 15% amplify (around how much was when skill was added, that time when r8 was the best eq and most of people got around 500+~30-90 stat and not 900 [because +400 mag example is 48% equipment mdef so like lv6 passive, if u add the 80% from primal passive then now have alot more mdef than before what make useless the defence debuffs])

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

but can transform defence debuff to similiar like amplify, so instead doing 60% defence reduction give 35% amplify, 50% to 30% amplify, 40% to 25% amplify, 30% to 15% amplify (around how much was when skill was added, that time when r8 was the best eq and most of people got around 500+~30-90 stat and not 900 [because +400 mag example is 48% equipment mdef so like lv6 passive, if u add the 80% from primal passive then now have alot more mdef than before what make useless the defence debuffs])

This puts me to think about Glacial Spike + Tangling Mire + HF for massive easy pwnage.
Or maybe Redstone Venomworm + Amp + Tangling Mire
But yeah i'd be much more OP on PvP (From Mire+Subsea), my only big issue would be HA users with bramble b:thanks

I don't think that would be balanced, that would just make it worse. As I said: Increase debuffs by 50% (for example, 50% reduction turns into 75% and so on). Would be much better for both soothing the nerfing from defense reductions and keeping things from getting much more broken.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This puts me to think about Glacial Spike + Tangling Mire + HF for massive easy pwnage.
Or maybe Redstone Venomworm + Amp + Tangling Mire
But yeah i'd be much more OP on PvP (From Mire+Subsea), my only big issue would be HA users with bramble b:thanks

before this i thought u just say ur opinion but now i know u really just trolling...
1. do u readed other topic, and there u know already mentioned genie debuff don't need rework only class based debuff so tangling mire don't be better at all than now
2. also if noticed than defence debuff not linear with amplify dmg, if example 60% debuff 35% amplify then 90% could be 40-45% amplify....
hf+glacial cost 4 spark, bm not gain chi like sin at all, its could increase dmg by 100%+40 or 45% (increase dmg stuff i know well added to each other)
i hardly call that op when sage subsea already 50% ....
yes bm can do 2 debuff, but harder to get close to u, got less critical chance slower skills also glacial only till lv10 do same debuffs then different vs mdef and pdef, so 40% increased pdef damage and 20% vs mdef
3. debuff could make not stacking with eachother, so if they think it is op simple make it don't stack with eachother and still will be viable debuff because longer duration than hf...

I don't think that would be balanced, that would just make it worse. As I said: Increase debuffs by 50% (for example, 50% reduction turns into 75% and so on). Would be much better for both soothing the nerfing from defense reductions and keeping things from getting much more broken.

1. that no even equivalent with old debuff if u make a very lil effort to check out that +50% debuff vs new stat+primal passive
2. they need rebalance everytime when coming a new stupid patch? lets learn new version of same debuff everytime for beign scaled with new stat+passive this could be fun
3. in ur ideea 90% pdef debuff vs unbuffed non primaled target isn't 135% pdef debuff then? vs unbuffed target (mid game) is drop pdef to 0 with tanglire.... until flat amplify same effective on mid and end game if was made well
with ur ideea the udine+spark became something like was before and still nerfed at end game, bm lv11 bm debuff became op in mid game and still less usefull at end game untl example +50% dmg allways same and not op in mid game too if they doing what stack with what

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

You don't understand, if defense passives was already meant to nerf debuffs, why would they make it as good as it used to be?

Also, if debuffs get this kind of change, the envelopes will change considerably. Meaning, no matter how much defense you have a debuff will be the same on both TT90 and R10R4 +13.

This is not likely to change, and I agree with how it is right now.

Now: Making 2 amp effects not stack, like amp+HF never stacked in first place?

Just no, everything is exactly where it was supposed to be. As I said, boost 50% the debuff numbers from skills (not genies) would smoothen the nerf, because this update was really intentional to nerf def reduction debuffs.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You don't understand, if defense passives was already meant to nerf debuffs, why would they make it as good as it used to be?

Also, if debuffs get this kind of change, the envelopes will change considerably. Meaning, no matter how much defense you have a debuff will be the same on both TT90 and R10R4 +13.

This is not likely to change, and I agree with how it is right now.

Now: Making 2 amp effects not stack, like amp+HF never stacked in first place?

Just no, everything is exactly where it was supposed to be. As I said, boost 50% the debuff numbers from skills (not genies) would smoothen the nerf, because this update was really intentional to nerf def reduction debuffs.

i doubt it was mean to nerf all debuff, maybe was made for nerf high debuffs like spark and maybe purge but i doubt it was made for kill the smaller debuff wht isnt was op before.....

alot thing i guess customizable like debuff from sage wizz skill not stack with udine etc or matatck buff not stack with 3rd spark mattack buff but another buff with same mattack buff could stack with 3rd spark....

As I said, boost 50% the debuff numbers from skills (not genies) would smoothen the nerf

and make same debuff like was before in mid game, interesting... so near sparek let make another spark kind debuff..... only at end game nerfed...

its way to nerfed but if we acctually thing not every class got debuff skill its something like isnt make balance between class and keep nerfed the op boosts?
or 45% amplify on bm for same 2 spark is op but on another class 50% isn't op?


if flat amplify its mean for unbuffed same effective (not same dmg!!) than on buffed before we add the dmg reduction from defence => make target defence to close to 0 (spark+udine) when unbuffed just increase dmg by 30% (since i guess no one sacrifice genie and going full dex, if not full dex genie spark became forgotten skill)...
something like don't do 20k dmg with spark+udine with reduction, u will do 10k (or ~12k if use genie spark with 30% amplify on end game people-coz since udine dont do anymore 60% debuff the spark effect is reduced aswell so became maybe same effective than e.poison but less range/duration/longer cooldown) before we don't add the new defence+dmg skill

this isn't huge different and isnt better than was before because still need more dmg to kill someone than before patch??

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Exactly. The defense passives serves exactly to make people more difficult to kill.

You may ask: They could have changed 75% pvp reduction to say 82%, would have a similar effect without nerfing debuffs. True. If they didn't maybe this really means they wanted to add PvP time, reduce 1-shots AND nerf defense reduction debuffs.

Defense reducting debuffs are MORE effective when target is purged than when target is full buffs. Flat amplify has same effectiveness on both buffed or unbuffed. This brings a certain value to venomancers and archer's purge in a certain way and I'm favorable to it. Now, this may mean in the end-game people end up being less dependant on debuffs in order to kill, which probably reduces effectiveness of tidal protection considerably. So, in a way or another it all ends up really looking slightly more balanced, as I said, they could boost a bit debuffs to pair up with new patterns, but changing from gear % to flat amp would not be a good idea (And would not make any sense with what they're trying to do right now).

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Exactly. The defense passives serves exactly to make people more difficult to kill.

You may ask: They could have changed 75% pvp reduction to say 82%, would have a similar effect without nerfing debuffs. True. If they didn't maybe this really means they wanted to add PvP time, reduce 1-shots AND nerf defense reduction debuffs.

do u readed the post? or repeat yourself even try to understand the amplify doesnt make far same "amplify" like ur ideea in mid game and in end game also make no chance for 1hit by same spark+udine ulti...
dealing 130% dmg vs 200%ish to u is same?

or if mystic/cleric etc dmg now with 1st skill deal +30% instead +10-16% (what is current udine) dmg and cost of debuff time is make anybody 1hit?

Defense reducting debuffs are MORE effective

how?
so now more effective the reducing 180% defence vs 240% by 50% => 130 vs 190
than 100% defence vs 160% defence like before primal?

only right if u talk about now after primal vs unbuffed and vs full buffed but this mean dev made class favoritism coz on class with 20-30% (50% ex. sage sin) amplify deal same ratio dmg than before new hoprizon until others with debuff going below 14-16% from 30% debuff (normal 50-60% debuffs).........
if u do with increaseing debuff then again unbuffed target became more squishy, i guess not that what dev wanted to do else they make primal somehow purgeable for archer and veno and sametime make non primaled target more 1hit...

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

You clearly don't understand my point, your counter-argument is based on a point that doesn't exist.

I'm saying Defense debuffs are MORE effective against PURGED targets than it is against NON-purged targets, contrary to flat amps which are always same effectivity against both purged or non-purged targets. I'm not comparing defense debuffs now to defense debuffs then.

Yes I did read your post, you're ranting about how genie spark skill got nerfed to about the same as an extreme poison. How DD classes which were mostly independent now need a BM to HF and/or a veno to amplify and purge. I don't understand, how is it giving DD class like wizards a full potential to both DD and debuff, versus giving support classes their deserved value a good thing?

Now if you suggest rework wizard skills, i'll say okay. maybe, whatever the devs think might need changing. But Wizard is meant to DD mostly, if something needs to change, it is in THIS aspect, not on how well they debuff. Once again, each and every wizard has the option of changing spark for extreme poison, you're not bound to spark, I'm also pretty sure you can have both at the same time.

Game mechanics are changing, its noticeable. If does this game survive much farther it tends to get a newly designed damage/debuff system like newest games have and possibly (i hope so) a more balanced system than it was both now and then.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How DD classes which were mostly independent now need a BM to HF and/or a veno to amplify and purge. I don't understand, how is it giving DD class like wizards a full potential to both DD and debuff a good thing, versus giving support classes their deserved value a good thing?

could i ask something?
1 debuff how to make wizzard support, then sage sin support too with aoe amplify with 3x more amplify, isn't it? that isnt same on unbuffed and buffed target?

your counter-argument is based on a point that doesn't exist

so not exist that when u give +45% debuff to 90% debuff and that isnt opish vs non primal class with higher effect than long ago the full dex genie spark?
or how balanced the 50=>75% debuff vs 180% and 90%=>135% vs 180% ?

(i still miss effect on archer debuff too coz could make a non autoattack/physical skills way)

i don't see any point where ur suggestion save something if addtive debuff system already broken?

'm saying Defense debuffs are MORE effective against PURGED targets than it is against NON-purged targets, contrary to flat amps which are always same effectivity against both purged or non-purged targets. I'm not comparing defense debuffs now to defense debuffs then.

so make defence skill useless if no everytime a purge class near u who can purge else debuff kinda close to useless? nice ideea, i would like it

but btw if i do 1k dmg because target unbuffed and with 30% amplify doing 1.3k then target cleric buffed and doing 800 and with amplify doing 1040 dmg then purge became useless if my dmg vs full buffed target droped from 1300 to 1040? so from 100% to 80%?

if base dmg already not high than percantage also not high, not enough to 1hit someone, btw maybe ebtter if they replace the blessings box's to example dmg reduction by 20% instead stacking alot attack level

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Wow, you cry cause you can't one shot people anymore? It's not just about debuff, people get geared more and more, people get more stats with RB and titles/nuemas/cards etc... You complain with a 60% debuff of 3 of your elements in the same debuff, mystic have a 20% debuff not even specific to our element and we can't and never was able to one shot people unless they are really under gears compare to us.

They made the passive defense so people have more defense, it would be ridiculous to put the debuffs higher it would just put it back at what it was before which will make useless work for the devs.

You gonna cry more soon the passive def is going to be lvl10.

b:chuckle

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Okay for the last time I'll try to explain this.

- They Implmented Defense passives to nerf 1-shots and abusive debuffs, like, for the most Spark+Undine.
- Then they implemented skill damage passive to compensate the previous change.

It is fun because with both these changes, we end up nerfing auto-attacks in PvP in some way (archers/sins) end up having less efficiency from auto-attacks and more from skills than before.

- Then they added more crits to everyone, if you do some math you know: 1% crit for someone with LESS than 50% crits is much more worth than 1% more crit to someone with already MORE than 50% crit.

What happens here is: Lets give everyone a perma-amp for 20% on skills (skill damage passive), lets give more defenses so debuffs won't get OP.

Result: Now we deal more damage than before without using debuffs, at trade of having defense debuffs nerfed. By one hand, gives amp/hf/subsea/purge more value.
(Purge 300% full buffs to 180% is about 120% gear defense minus.)
AND
if you remove 100% from 300% its a 33% global reduction against removing 100% from 180 which is about 55% reduction from global value.
^ This is why I said debuffs vs purged targets are stronger.
And again: If we only used a bit higher numbers for those skills they could get less nerfed.

Now, while I do agree subsea strike (sage for the most) is a slightly OP skill, I'm not willing to discuss about assassin's role and class design.

From my perspective: Skill damage passive made more difference than defense passive in the outcome of PvP: skill damage without any debuffs do more damage than it used to do before.

Face this way: Everyone is harder to kill now, including yourself. Means the game gets more challenging to everyone, not only you. Much better than random ridiculous people 1-shotting gear-equivallent. 1v1 was never meant to be "Whoever hits first, wins"

Jarkhen - Archosaur

The fact that you're still here complaining that your debuffs aren't overpowered anymore is astounding to me. Let me make this as clear as I can.


That is the point.


Debuffs were nerfed. This is a good thing. It makes PvP considerably more interesting. Deal with it.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay for the last time I'll try to explain this.

- They Implmented Defense passives to nerf 1-shots and abusive debuffs, like, for the most Spark+Undine.
- Then they implemented skill damage passive to compensate the previous change.
this 100% try if someone play with psy/sin/seeker/mystic etc but few others got good skills too like cleric for compasate their debuff buff they added nice dps skill what spamable.

It is fun because with both these changes, we end up nerfing auto-attacks in PvP in some way (archers/sin) end up having less efficiency from auto-attacks and more from skills than before.
sins? they didn't used skills before patch aswell? they isn't got op skill in base dmg/spark cost and cooldown term vs all other class? i feel maybe archer who lost in this autoattack thing in pvp not sin, also archer purge became less effective too, anything became less effective on sin?
qoute from other thread with i guess 70% server agree [rest maybe sin]

It's just that sins are so ****ing OP now...

- Then they added more crits to everyone, if you do some math you know: 1% crit for someone with LESS than 50% crits is much more worth than 1% more crit to someone with already MORE than 50% crit.
interesting peoples dont feel this when others talk same about defence, example 100% pdef self buff, or when we talk about increase same amount base dmg on fast and slow skills and thiw way kill nuke/ulti skills

What happens here is: Lets give everyone a perma-amp for 20% on skills (skill damage passive), lets give more defenses so debuffs won't get OP.
acctualy exclude 1 debuff (genie spark) could do you say another OP debuff? hm? even cleric mdef debuff+udine far from OP, then why u declare all debuff op instead saying u think spark is OP?

Result: Now we deal more damage than before without using debuffs, at trade of having defense debuffs nerfed. By one hand, gives amp/hf/subsea/purge more value.
(Purge 300% full buffs to 180% is about 120% gear defense minus.)
AND
if you remove 100% from 300% its a 33% global reduction against removing 100% from 180 which is about 55% reduction from global value.
^ This is why I said debuffs vs purged targets are stronger.
And again: If we only used a bit higher numbers for those skills they could get less nerfed.

Now, while I do agree subsea strike (sage for the most) is a slightly OP skill, I'm not willing to discuss about assassin's role and class design.

From my perspective: Skill damage passive made more difference than defense passive in the outcome of PvP: skill damage without any debuffs do more damage than it used to do before.
i dont said have anything wrong with skill dmg but have alot way to reduce dmg: like u said pvp penalty reduction increase/passive damage reduction increase

Face this way: Everyone is harder to kill now, including yourself. Means the game gets more challenging to everyone, not only you. Much better than random ridiculous people 1-shotting gear-equivallent. 1v1 was never meant to be "Whoever hits first, wins"

that they can solve with simple nerf genie skill and add damage reduction passive ... or higher pvp penalty like u said, same result, same more enjoyable game even with class debuff too

if u considering debuff is op with 30% (currently this is soon below than 15% and depend on target even more less) amplify and limited time vs single target and casting time (far from instant) but on other hand other got 22/25attack level for 8/11 def level cost what don't need rebuff each time for every target for every 12 sec, no cast time, aoe and can replace if have danger.

The fact that you're still here complaining that your debuffs aren't overpowered anymore is astounding to me. Let me make this as clear as I can.

fact u cant read, i didnt complained about spark nerfed, maybe try read then reply about the fact who complained about ur purge nerf on another thread b:laugh

P S:
btw i just think unfair kill class debuffs mainly if a class dmg based on it to be compareable to others, also that debuff got drawback but everybody think only black voodoo/CoD/sacrificial etc got and this nobody mention but i think i will stay with my sin because that the only class what superior in everything vs same geared caster (grinding stuff like tt/nirvy/lunar so most important instance, leveling for rebirth damn much easier than with caster if somebody isnt +12 etc, nuema grinding ty to stealth damn much faster. in pvp not was yet underpowered since they out)

reason is

Originally Posted by Proski - Archosaur
.................................................. ...............
I'm not gonna waste my time playing wizards anymore, they've consistently been the worst class in this game for years all things considering. there's a reason there are so few, yet nobody but actual wizard players themselves reflect on that fact.
.................................................. ...............
i'm sage. as for the thread, first time seeing it. unfortunately, you can't appeal to reason with people on this forum when their only experience with wizards is one scenario ingrained in their memory. that is, of course, dieing to spark, never mind all the other drawbacks to being a wizard as compared to other classes

Skite - Lost City wrote: »

Well, sad to hear that undine is being debuffed. I liked that skill. b:surrender

Otherwise seems that everything is same old same old. We get good stuff, other classes get better stuff... Eh.