Two Questions for pwi veterans!

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

woot epic win. no excuses anymore will be gving away the account. ty for explaining it so well to me. peace all.

One can only hope. I'm pretty sure your head is a bit thick for that though.

If he wanted to learn his class, he'd be fighting with equal gears to practice.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If he wanted to learn his class, he'd be fighting with equal gears to practice.

anyone who duels with me often knows i used to gear down all the time. but you sir, like tsy are amazing players and i am glad that your words have made an impact. i am the root of the problem. so clearly i do not belong here. this will be my last post. and yes i am thick headed, but i also know when there's no point. the same way you all say i keep making excuses you all do the same. only difference is more of you are on the side of things are balanced as is and auer is an idiot.

it's cool actually, i have been playing for four years and each year have enjoyed it less and less each year. my reactions are too slow, my internet/system sucks and i know nothing about playing a cleric. and now that i understand that i will move on to other things i am good at [at least i hope, unless you guys think i just suck at everything which in that case i guess i'll just stop playing games all together.] my rationale has never been that i am as perfect as perfect world. my rationale always was try to get those suffering to speak up. but only you and all the other pro-sins who are absolutely certain of my ineptitude post on these forums that no one pays attention to, except people who care or enjoy trying to attach a person's self worth to a game. it's just a game, a broken...errr, perfectly balanced one. so enjoy it.

if you really feel strongly about something speak up without shutting someone else down. in hindsight i can pick apart anyone's duel. the question is were they lagging? were they thinking of winning the duel or trying to make it last so there would enough damage on the combat log to prove my futile points. if you can't formulate an argument that encourages discussion rather than quells it then quite frankly this is not the place for me. what did it for me was being awarded points for that, lol. really? ok if this is the kind of thing you guys are into and awarding points for it then just know i am not the only one who has been turned off in this manner. and it happens alot more than you know cause of how this community treats people who don't agree with the status quo on here. hail to the defenders of pwi, may you live forever.....in your perfect world.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I didn't make any comments. Not sure why you quoted me on it? :S
I don't play Archosaur. HideYoHubby suggests that you don't gear down, which is why I suggested that you should gear down.

I didnt exactly say that prior to time you wrote your post, which offended him I believe. He might do it, I dont know, I personally have never seen it. If he does it, its not a norm, that much I can say.

Actually, In Auerlius' defense, I have seen him, on many occasions gear down to fight lower geared people.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

That doesnt disclose possibility of gearing down at times. I mostly saw him in NW, where he obviously didnt gear down. I personally have never seen him gear down - Granted I have long periods of time I dont pop on open world PvP. Im bit adhd, sitting somewhere watching ppl PvP isnt exactly something I like doing, just get urge to do something myself(Mostly farm something for coins). I was told he he has geared down in past, swapping to full -chan gear, which has its own advantages and problems for "balanced gearing down".

While he has "gear downed" from being R9rr+?? JoSD to a lesser gear. That Lesser gear in question is Full -Chan gear (2 piece r9 if i remember correctly). This, while is gear down, is not balance for PvP. If someone where to ask me to gear down, I'd put on my G16 gear set. If someone with none G16 weapons wants to duel and ask for a Gear Down option, I'll put on my TT99+6 gold axes. His -Chan gear is probably an equivalent to my TT90 gear. Its just so squishy.

I saw him "Geared Down" in Chan gear against a Barb in SP. I saw him dead on the ground.

Imo, with all his claims and such, knowing how much a barb does (Demon Strish barb at that) does with the current skill set they have. I would have probably told him to keep his R9 on tbh. -Chan on a cleric is really only fun to see a tempest spam and such.

Would personally say pwi is more centered around group pvp rather than one-on-one.

In regards to certain issues brought up in this forum post as well as other forum posts. Some people are faster at adjusting to updated game mechanics than others. Considering how old PWI is...In the last few years, there has been alot of tweaks that have affected the quality of pvp for individual classes.

Whether these changes are for the best or worst is irrelevant. How quickly are you to adapt to those changes is what makes a big difference. Seems like a simple enough concept, yet many don't seem to get it. b:pleased

CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur wrote: »

Would personally say pwi is more centered around group pvp rather than one-on-one.

In regards to certain issues brought up in this forum post as well as other forum posts. Some people are faster at adjusting to updated game mechanics than others. Considering how old PWI is...In the last few years, there has been alot of tweaks that have affected the quality of pvp for individual classes.

Whether these changes are for the best or worst is irrelevant. How quickly are you to adapt to those changes is what makes a big difference. Seems like a simple enough concept, yet many don't seem to get it. b:pleased

I agree with this, the company has focused on group PvP such as TW which requires team work and when given the choice to fix the battle arenas (for single ranked PvP) or introduce NW they choose NW (nation/team) style of play this leads me to believe that group PvP is the more important design element for them.

This in itself will not favour those who love single PvP as the optimum setup for single PvP is player 1 has the offensive capability to overcome player 2 defences and player 2 has the offensive capabilities to overcome player 1s defences giving both players a chance of winning based on skill usage. e.g. players class offence equals other players class defences.

For team work style PvP player 1s defences should require player 2 and 3s offensive capabilities to overcome. e.g. players class offence weaker than other players classes defences.

This means a game made for one style of play will inevitably disappoint people who love the other style of play.

One example of how well this works, is when we used the veno to purge a cata barb in TW then my psychic would diminish vigor the same barb and the rest of the squad would drop the heaviest barbs like a rock in seconds I personally think this is the style of play the developers actually wanted.

After reading my own post, I had to add one more thought I liked the group PvP in this game and was actually saddened by the swing to 1v1, because when i wish this style of play I usually switch to old favorites such as mortal kombat or even Pokemon, where I can have trully 1 on 1 brawls lol and I think the game play was designed with a better balance for 1v1 just a personal thought.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Certain squad combinations are hard to combat...

the nastiest I've seen so far is 3 venos, 3 assassins vs (anybody).

The rolling veno purge on a single target plus sins who can't be stopped mows down people 1 by 1 with high efficiency. Venos with high speed, antistuns, and purify proc are very hard to pin down, and the assassins are even harder to stop due to sage tidal. This is a super offensive squad which demands a very specific type of squad to combat it.

This seems to go against a lot of the fundamental tenets of group PvP; I'm not sure this type of squad is even viable as you say.

3 venos and 3 sins means no squad buffs, which means they'd all be squishier than normal (i.e, full buffed) combatants and should be thus easier to kill. Furthermore, any properly balanced squad should have an EP, WR, and WB to constantly rebuff, which would severely negate any purge.

3 sins on an arcane just means 15 hits (Elimination), 1 of which will probably proc Purify; neither sin nor veno has an effective Paralyze to negate Purify Proc so I doubt that the squad could take down any competitively geared arcane that knows how to kite. In fact, it might be better for 1 sin and only 1 sin to concentrate on 1 target as to have a lesser chance of procing Purify and wasting valuable debuffs.

3 venos: They'd all get focused to death, which means permanent foxform. This means basically no arcane damage to kill any HAs available, and HAs are tanky enough to kite sins effectively, especially with constant rebuffs to counter purges. Furthermore, because of permanent foxform, all the venos would be melee - which effectively means the entire squad would be melee. Countering a fully ranged squad - i.e, having to cover 30 meters in between KITING targets - would be extraordinarily taxing. The sins might even need holy path (as would the venos, if they weren't demon). The only upside of venos would be Demon Ironwood and/or Myriad, which might actually have potential to bring down targets if it weren't so rare and easily immunable/purifiable.

There are so many ways to counter this type of squad: Kiting the sins (easy enough with Purify nowadays), disabling the venos and focusing any that went human form (it's much harder to escape ranged DD with Purify proc), using classes like seekers which rely on zerkcrit rather than debuffs as ways to bypass tidal...

On some other servers I've seen squads tantamount to being composed of only archers [link] doing extraordinarily well. Pretty sure that such a squad would be much better than your proposal here.

This type of squad, furthermore, would only succeed with extremely experienced PvPers: To avoid getting killed, even through Tidal and fox form, is difficult without full buffs. And, to my knowledge, no such combination of 3 sins and 3 venos exists on any PWI server. Not sure exactly why you're presenting a squad with such a low probability of existence; I myself tend to dismiss theoreticals and question examples without citations.

tsyfall wrote: »

This seems to go against a lot of the fundamental tenets of group PvP; I'm not sure this type of squad is even viable as you say.

3 venos and 3 sins means no squad buffs, which means they'd all be squishier than normal (i.e, full buffed) combatants and should be thus easier to kill. Furthermore, any properly balanced squad should have an EP, WR, and WB to constantly rebuff, which would severely negate any purge.

3 sins on an arcane just means 15 hits (Elimination), 1 of which will probably proc Purify; neither sin nor veno has an effective Paralyze to negate Purify Proc so I doubt that the squad could take down any competitively geared arcane that knows how to kite. In fact, it might be better for 1 sin and only 1 sin to concentrate on 1 target as to have a lesser chance of procing Purify and wasting valuable debuffs.

3 venos: They'd all get focused to death, which means permanent foxform. This means basically no arcane damage to kill any HAs available, and HAs are tanky enough to kite sins effectively, especially with constant rebuffs to counter purges. Furthermore, because of permanent foxform, all the venos would be melee - which effectively means the entire squad would be melee. Countering a fully ranged squad - i.e, having to cover 30 meters in between KITING targets - would be extraordinarily taxing. The sins might even need holy path (as would the venos, if they weren't demon). The only upside of venos would be Demon Ironwood and/or Myriad, which might actually have potential to bring down targets if it weren't so rare and easily immunable/purifiable.

There are so many ways to counter this type of squad: Kiting the sins (easy enough with Purify nowadays), disabling the venos and focusing any that went human form (it's much harder to escape ranged DD with Purify proc), using classes like seekers which rely on zerkcrit rather than debuffs as ways to bypass tidal...

On some other servers I've seen squads tantamount to being composed of only archers [link] doing extraordinarily well. Pretty sure that such a squad would be much better than your proposal here.

This type of squad, furthermore, would only succeed with extremely experienced PvPers: To avoid getting killed, even through Tidal and fox form, is difficult without full buffs. And, to my knowledge, no such combination of 3 sins and 3 venos exists on any PWI server. Not sure exactly why you're presenting a squad with such a low probability of existence; I myself tend to dismiss theoreticals and question examples without citations.

I agree with Tsy's comment. Such a squad would certainly not be viable.

Unbuffed targets are extremely squishy. Sure, sins have tidal protection and venomancers have purify, but at the end of the day one is Light Armor and the other is Arcane. They would have to be built with purely defensive gears or risk a well placed assist attack dropping them instantaneously. And of course, purely defensive players are in no way threatening offensively.

Even if we assume that all 6 people are wielding Spirit of Defense, that is nothing compared to the cost-free buffs of a EP, WR, and WB when you consider that Spirit of Defense wastes apoth cooldown. If we're talking about traditional squads, then a traditional squad will have at least 1 veno or 1 archer. One purge and they're done for. Sure, they might out purge you, but you get rebuffed instantly so this shouldn't even be a problem. While they can rebuff themselves once with Spirit of Defense, you can purge them 4 times in that duration. Being out purged is really nothing compared to being out buffed.

Now let's consider the variety of classes you have at your disposal. A traditional squad has a BM. Sure, sins are somewhat hard to stop while in tidal protection, but venos are not. A single well placed Roar of the Pride will easily stop all three in their tracks. Roar of the Pride is spammable with very little chi cost. You would hardly need more clerics to keep them in place. Also, most BMs are demon, so it is safe to assume that they have demon bell at their disposal. This buff grants you an extra 75% physical defense for 15 seconds. 15 seconds may seem short, but no one is going to be dying in that 15 seconds. Even the squishest arcane can suddenly tank sins when that extra boost is given to them. Purgable yes, but a BM can spam it faster and more often than a veno can purge.

A traditional squad also has a Barbarian. An offensive barbarian who knows what they're doing can 1 shot an Arcane or Light armor class every minute. Not to mention that Barbarians can also purge and are a good single target CC class. Most people seem to also forget that Barbarians have the ability to draw PvP Aggro. Using that skill can save someone from the next purge. While the Barbarian will suffer purge themselves, it's 3 sins you're dealing with! A barbarian is the last target sins will go for.

I shouldn't have to talk about clerics. Obviously clerics will be focused first, but that's really just an excellent opportunity to stall. With 6 people focused on a single target, the rest of your squad can wreck havoc. Don't be afraid to kite to Africa.

A traditional squad will also have a venomancer. Like I mentioned earlier, you can rebuff; 3 venos and 3 sins cannot. So really, the veno just have to survive long enough to purge all 6 people and your win is almost guaranteed. Besides, even if the veno dies, they can always respawn.

That leaves 2 spots for 2 ranged DD classes. And really, any ranged DD classes will do. Full buffed anything is tough to deal with. With BM spamming bell and AOE stunning, Barbarians drawing aggro, and cleric purifying, I really can't see how 3 sins and 3 venos can pull off a kill on any single target. They would have to keep at least half of your squad in CC to kill just 1 person, and neither sins nor venos are the best class for doing so.

With all things consider, the type of squad you mentioned should be easily defeated by a traditional squad that can constantly rebuff, crowd control, purge, and focus fire.

I wonder where did she saw that squad.

I understand that in a situation with both equal gear and skill (or at least partially equaled) that kind of squad seems inefficient, however if this 6 person outgear the enemy and know what they are doing is actually possible, if we put this on a stage like NW for example is even more posible.

Taking NW as example, An squad can have 10 people, but those 10 player usually wont stay together, especially if they are End game geared, this means that sometimes you ll see 2,3 or 4 really OP Players taking down 10, 20 or more people by themselves, considering that those 10 or more people are not squaded, unorganized and most of times undergeared, and even worse, sometimes afk (someone s alt).

I saw a barb tank 34 people on a crystall contest at the spawn point, like a month ago on archosaur server
the few people that were able to pass him just got one shoted by 2 rrr9 end game archers, proly from the same barb squad. considering that from those 34, like 5 or more were tt70/80 and more than alf of the rest were not even g16, thats left us with like mm lets say 12 or so r9/g16 people being unable to kill a single end game player.

so in nw is actually quite common to see weird squads facerrolling a lot of people, but not cose thats the whole squad, is more that they just split, and they dont even need to be together, i mean they can one or 2 shot almost anyone and tank a lot of damage.

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

When i was first starting the game, i saw about 3 level 100's from Kingdom beat about 60 people from a lowby faction. ACSII the cleric wrecking face.

Anyway i was not asking about the current state of balance, but WHAT the devs HAVE balanced the game around.

I remember ASCII, I got a lot of my build tips from him. Learned a lot about Cleric PvP too. Haven't been over there in a couple of years though.

Currently the game is balanced around cashing out the latest end-game gear and farming all the cards and skills. The winners usually end up being the ones with brains as well as cash, rather than the ones that figure gear can make up for stupidity.

tsyfall, thanks for the analysis on his PvP and other things. Strengthening my point.

tsyfall wrote: »

And for all your talk and logic, you never once question your own competence and skill. Another sin might be better than you, or someone else sucks, but you never consider the possibility that the problem lies partially in your own ineptitude?

Toraah is arguably the best sin on Archo, but I assure you, you aren't the best EP. i remember beating you when you had R9 +12 JOSD and I was an aps +6 sin. It is logical that you would lose. It is not logical to advocate for a rebalance based on your own incompetence.

I've seen the videos of 1v1s. Not impressed.

b:victory

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

He doesn't need to be a factor on PWI to prove his point.

Very much true Zsw!

I never said I was a phenominal sin. Actually, my recent PvP video, of my PvP back in the day of G16 gears, i named Noob Assassin PvP. Why? Cuz there were tons of flaws. Misplays, wasted skills, etc....
I'm not saying im pro now, but everyone learns and grows over time.
You said you've played cleric 4 years...
Let me just add, it doesn't hurt to admit to sucking. 4 years. w/e cash or time spent in game gearing.
People spend more time on kids or careers that end up in jail or falling through the roof.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

anyone who duels with me often knows i used to gear down all the time. but you sir, like tsy are amazing players and i am glad that your words have made an impact. i am the root of the problem. so clearly i do not belong here. this will be my last post. and yes i am thick headed, but i also know when there's no point. the same way you all say i keep making excuses you all do the same. only difference is more of you are on the side of things are balanced as is and auer is an idiot.

it's cool actually, i have been playing for four years and each year have enjoyed it less and less each year. my reactions are too slow, my internet/system sucks and i know nothing about playing a cleric. and now that i understand that i will move on to other things i am good at [at least i hope, unless you guys think i just suck at everything which in that case i guess i'll just stop playing games all together.] my rationale has never been that i am as perfect as perfect world. my rationale always was try to get those suffering to speak up. but only you and all the other pro-sins who are absolutely certain of my ineptitude post on these forums that no one pays attention to, except people who care or enjoy trying to attach a person's self worth to a game. it's just a game, a broken...errr, perfectly balanced one. so enjoy it.

Balance? Nah No game is truly balanced. Someone class will have some skill that counter the other class etc...
Someone will have a fatter credit card for their gears.
Someone will have spent more time in the game for other things.
And people always have lag, d/c, and what not.
Skill only speaks for itself.

Use macros that combo up your skills if you know you will follow up Cursed Jail with condensed thorn and spell cutter. Then combine it. If you have more lag time than channeling and casting 3 spells. Well maybe you should PvP in a less condensed area or another day. Other games, unfortunately not PWI, allow you to queue up commands with things like shift click. But if your lagging, the least you can do is combine up macro combos. And you can always queue up to 1 spell while casting your current spell.

Us? We have only 3 sins on a good day, and at most 2 venos. You can't possibly be referring to us?

In the event that you are referring to us, what we said are absolutely valid. If venos are so hard to kill, then what is to account for many occasions where a full buffed veno dies before they can even channel purge? And if they are in fact hard to kill, then how come a traditional squad doesn't bring a veno along with them?

The more logical reason is really just that we have better coordination. We're not playing some OP unbeatable classes here.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

I didn't know you quit sin.

b:avoid

Sins are/were beatable. gg
No, I haven't played NH yet.