Frost Splash, Worth it.

Asty put it mildy. Any Sage that takes FS over frost arrow should be slapped

Meh, is good for pwning lots of spread out noobs. Mostly I just use it in PvE when barrage is on CD because it has decent fire power, but it's definitely not something I'd really find much practical use for in tier one TW.

Bobz has a video with a nice demonstration
Click Me

Essentially it... lets archers kill undergeared people even more easily now kinda.... which just helps boost that stereotype so many have about archers being OP when they get mowed down by a maxed out archer while they're in **** gear.

Yay.

Idk. Archers used to be OP back when it was just normal R9 and purge made a massive difference. Now gear for arcanes has practically been buffed so much that equal gears our bows are average damage at best. I will not be getting this skill.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Idk. Archers used to be OP back when it was just normal R9 and purge made a massive difference. Now gear for arcanes has practically been buffed so much that equal gears our bows are average damage at best. I will not be getting this skill.

Purge still makes a massive difference.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The problem with purge nowadays is that there are more and more buffs that aren't purgeable. The passive buffs make only a small difference compared to the fact. Tbh the passive buffs benefited archers just as much, especially since we had no useful self buffs in the first place.

Yeah but then again everyone else got it too?

Well it's more like...not all classes are made equal? Other classes can afford to stack debuffs with genie + debuff skills. Archers typically can't unless they are not under pressure in a group fight.

A cleric can sleep a BM out of marrow and set up with mdef debuff (or 2 debuffs if Demon) and charm debuff, can archers do that?

It's never just about raw stats, then again if you're comparing something like 3 pdef buffs to 1 mdef buff then it's a little ridiculous. A sin can have the same defensive stats as an archer too, yet a sin can probably burn genie on mire ep while the archer is using genie to try to keep distance or mitigate damage.

Gimme tidal and deaden and cotd and 1/2 your CC tree and we'll talk, lol

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers AND sins have the lowest def, we wear basically the same damn gear.

Um, no. Sins can ACTUALLY 'evade' CCs and magic, and cannot get one-shotted....if you're smart. So...yea, no.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked archers had a 60% damage reduction spell that give an anti stun, and sins only have a chance to avoid damage. SO what was that about avoiding cc?

Please quit with the classist BS. Both classes have basically the same base stats other than the weapon. I said no mention of class skills. But if you want to go there, please do, so i can shut you down.

WoG is 30% damage reduction and will not potentially block any other status effects other than stun/slow/freeze/sleep.

Tidal is a 50%-66% chance to completely block w/e status effect and can resist purge as well. That is a hell of a lot more potential survivability than an archer has. To top it off, sins have their own anti-stun anyway.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked archers had 2x the base phy atk of sins, ability to leap from danger, massive range, purge on your main weapon, 60% damage reduction anti stun, a 15 sec anti stun, a sheild that actually absorbs a but of damage (not chance based), ability to get 90%+ crit without expending 2 sparks. Shall i go on? Seems like you guys shoot down the fact sins and archers have the same defensive stats, who said anything about skills? Sin skills don't scale with or buff our stats, you should know this.

Clearly you know nothing about the archer class. Or maybe you're just getting owned by archers with better gear than you. Either way - you're mostly wrong about everything you've said.

Sins and archers do not have the same defensive stats. If archers had zerk, or tidal, people would actually cry to their mums rather than QQ on forums.

I thought the fact that sins put offensive skills on their genie and the fact that archers need to put defensive skills was a testament to that.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked archers had 2x the base phy atk of sins, ability to leap from danger, massive range, purge on your main weapon, 60% damage reduction anti stun, a 15 sec anti stun, a sheild that actually absorbs a but of damage (not chance based), ability to get 90%+ crit without expending 2 sparks. Shall i go on?

We have not 2x base attack, but closer to 1.5x, especially now with cards and such giving a boost that's not related to weapon damage. This advantage means damn near nothing when sins (1) can zerk and (2) have an absurd number of skills with drastically higher damage addons than archers.

Shadow jump/tele work just as well for getting away as they do for getting close. Learn to use them that way -- and hey, you get 30-35 meters while we only get 20!

Knife throw + shadow tele give sins a larger effective range than archers (35m), and stealth basically negates the range advantage altogether. As much as you like to throw around being able to see sins your level, stealth pots (unlike sin's passive) do not have anywhere close to 100% uptime, and it's rare to find someone that's going to spam them constantly. You have plenty of opportunity to close that range gap with stealth.

As stated above, WoG is 30%, not 60%. Dramatic difference. It is also, to my knowledge, the only antistun in the game that is not instant. That is our 15 second antistun, and no, that is not a very significant difference from your 10-12 second antistun (especially considering you also have tidal), so don't pretend it is.

Winged Shell? Have you ever played an archer? Winged shell is one of the most useless defensive skills I have ever seen. 1k absorbed damage (1.5k upgraded) is useless in endgame PvP. It gets popped in a single shot, and is nowhere near worth the 1.3s channel/cast and the 45 (!) chi cost.

As for crit: 85-90% vs. 75-80% (which is now typical for endgame archers/sins) is not exactly the most significant difference: 5.5%-5.7%. It's a nice boost, but throwing that out as significant when a sin's DD capabilities drastically outmatch that of an archer's is asinine.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seems like you guys shoot down the fact sins and archers have the same defensive stats, who said anything about skills?

Defensive stats, yes. But you have dramatically more defensive options - full mobility in stealth (and on a shorter CD), tidal (which is much more beneficial than WoG - I'd trade you any day), a wide range of CC options... the list goes on.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sin skills don't scale with or buff our stats, you should know this.

Going just off of sage here because I don't feel like typing demon + sage:

Among the commonly-used sin skills that have +wep damage (i.e., scales with stats):
Slipstream: base + 100% + 6633, 6s cd, +8 chi
Rib strike: base + 100% + 4495, 8s cd, +10 chi, lowers aps + lowers max hp (sage)
Throatcut: base + 100% + 7331, 8s cd, -1 spark, interrupts + silences for 4s
Headhunt: base + 100% + 8018, 30s cd, -1 spark, stuns for 5s
Earthen: base + 430%, 8s cd, +10 chi, AoE
Rising Dragon: base + 100% + 3643, 30s cd, +180 chi, 100% accuracy
Elimination: 320% base, 15s cd, +30 chi, immobilize, massive DoT (935% wep)
Life Hunter: base + 200% + 11755 PER HIT (every 0.7s), spammable, +10 chi, reduces aps, reduces max hp (sage)

The few commonly-used sin skills that don't have +wep damage:
Tacking Slash: base + 5210, 15s cd, +50 chi, 11s immobilize
Knife Throw: base + 1888, 10s cd, +20 chi, chance to interrupt, 35m range
Spell Cutter: base + 3834, 15s cd, +10 chi, interrupts, slows channeling
Condensed Thorn: base + 1817, +10 chi, slows, adds water damage
Power Dash: base + 3831, 30s cd, -2 sparks, +50% crit (granted basically worthless at endgame now)
Subsea: base + 6541, 30s cd, -2 sparks, 30% amp, AoE

Note that every skill without +wep damage has some other bonus that makes it useful: interrupt, adding water damage, AoE amp

Also note that most sin skills have very short channel times: the only skills listed here with more than 0.5s channel are Throatcut (1.1s) and Rift (0.7s), and many are 0.1s or 0.2s.


Commonly-used archer skills with +wep damage:
(Using Demon for the same reason I used Sage on sins)
Blood Vow: base + 150% + 4444, 2 min cd, -1 spark, reduces max hp, 25% amp, DoT
BoA: base + 200% + 6639, 30s cd, -2 sparks, AoE
Take Aim: base + 400%, 3s cd, +15 chi

Fully charged take aim is almost never used except to oneshot unsuspecting people with lower gear; it is typically insta-casted, giving just base phys damage.
Other than that: oh man, two skills, both costing a spark, and one on a 2 minute cd.

Arrow Inferno and Whisper Shot also have +wep% (+250% and +100%, respectively), but they are very rarely used, due to their spark cost and other factors (like Whisper Shot's absurdly small AoE)

Commonly-used archer skills without +wep damage (basically everything):
Quickshot: base + 2508, 3s cd, +5 chi, 50% chance to give +30% aps for 6s
Aim Low: base + 5403, 15s cd, -1 spark, 90% chance to immobilize for 8s + 25% chance to stun for 3s
Stunning Arrow: base + 2687, 15s cd, +15 chi, 90% chance to stun for 3s, +10% crit for 10s
STA: base + 3668, 15s cd, +12 chi, reduces max hp, +10% crit for 15s, AoE
Winged Pledge: base + 3148, 2s cd, +15 chi, melee, 25% chance to slow
Wingspan: base + 4347, 6s cd, +10 chi, melee, AoE, grants lv5 winged shell
Lightning Strike: base + 3820, 8s cd, +10 chi, 100% accuracy
Thunder Shock: base + 4238, 6s cd, -30 chi, metal debuff
Thunderous Blast: base + 4819, 8s cd, +10 chi, AoE

Sins have dramatically more skills that scale with your weapon damage. The idea that sin skills "don't scale with stats" is clearly absurd. Their skills also have significantly less channel time (1.0-2.0 is typical for archer skills) and generate significantly more chi. Elimination and Life Hunter both do dramatically more damage than BV, but on a 15s or nonexistent CD (compared to 2 mins), and give chi instead of costing a spark.

On the defensive side of things, you can't pretend that Tidal doesn't give more benefit as stats increase, although putting a numerical value on its benefit is difficult. Focused Mind, though, which is generally regarded as inferior to Tidal, gives +33% average damage reduction with 67% uptime and no chi cost, compared to WoG's max 50% uptime at a cost of 1 spark every 30s. WoG performs slightly better in constant-damage situations and Focused better in spike-damage situations, but Focused is the clear winner overall, at least in damage reduction. The antistun would be roughly on par with Tidal, which only has a chance to block but has greater uptime, but WoG does not block things like purge, amp, or other debuffs -- and again costs a spark every 30s. On top of this, sins get an instant-cast 12s antistun that I would say is roughly equivalent to an archer's Alacrity (which is only 8s but gives a more significant speed boost), though Alacrity has double the cd (3 mins vs. 90s). Sins also get Deaden (83% uptime), making it impossible to be oneshot.


Arguing that the benefit from tidal/focused does not scale with your defense while that of WoG does is, again, clearly absurd -- if anything, the sin's skills (tidal especially) scale better. Deaden's benefit also increases significantly as survivability increases.

To go back to your original post, which was so absurd it took me a minute to realize you were even serious:

Last I checked, sins have a no-chi-cost movement speed boost, free out-of-combat stealth, full mobility in stealth, a shorter force-stealth cooldown, dramatically shorter channel times, significantly more skills that scale with weapon damage, overall higher skill damage, greater chi generation from skills, more CC options (that also last longer), GoF on their main weapon (which has ~4-5x the proc chance of purge), a 30-meter and a 35-meter (stunning) leap, the ability to see people in stealth with 100% uptime and without spamming pots, multiple interrupts, longer range than archers on a stun-leap and knife throw, an anti-oneshot skill, and a 67% chance to avoid all incoming debuffs, including CCs/debuffs/purge. Shall I go on?

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really hate it when people call wog 15 seconds. WoG is only 12 seconds of useable anti stun after the 3 seconds of casting. It doesn't make much sense to call it a 15 second anti stun. It's like saying demon spark lasts for 18 seconds.

People seem to think wog is a game breaking skill. b:laugh

Dion Dagger is an idiot who thinks that sins are the PWI equivalent of little orphan annie. Among the kinds of things he claims are statements that archers outdamage sins on equal gear terms in PvE and that venos are useless in PvP.
He likes to bring up his stupid unfounded assassin concerns in archer threads which are completely irrelevant to his QQing and does not deserve a real response. Leave him alone in his solitary corner of ****** b:thanks