All may not be lost for archers?

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I wasn't complaining about wiz. I was simply comparing defensive skills. The other point is, archers outdamage wiz unless the wiz uses high chi skills. I can't remember the last time I won vs an equally geared, skilled archer by just pressing undine, pyro, and gush (If i did, it meant the archer was undergeared). I needed either an ult, an all-in spark, pot, or sutra.

The ults and sutra cost 2 sparks each, and they can often fail since the archer can just mash WoG. This means we basically need the sparks for offense, while the archer can just sit there and literally just mash WoG, AD, and soul of fire while autoattacking.

You could easily just seal the archer during WoG. And then blast him to high hell. It's been done to me plenty of times on my sin before i got wise. Also SoF protects against fire. Wizards have multiple ults, of differing elements.

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

I'll just answer step by step to make some points clear.
BloodVow = 2m cd + 1 spark, yeah, usefull as ** in massive pvp.. (cata-barb, period)
Frenzy/Mire/Ep... then you die as you have a huge lack of defensive skills that cost no spark, meaning you're either a pure glass-cannon or a pure DD, but not even close to a mid-point, got 3 pvp genies, kinda know how to manage them, ty.b:chuckleThen you should learn how to actually use them to deal damage. As for not having one of you genie, for damage. You mean to tell me you only rely on your genie for defense? I barely use my genie at all in TW and I still get kills, and get away from all the +12 toons in my +7 gears. Learn how to survive.

Try to hit a full S-cards josd +12 sin with a simple +11 non-Deity ea, yeah, 800dmg, easy test, check Rinc's videos on Youtube, pretty instructive. (He is the one I hit 800 on TW). About the "are an aps archer", ty, I'm full r9rr +8 on +11 bow, sure, aps build O.ob:chuckleIf you did this on a sin you are missing something. Defense charm or apo?

Never said archers needed a boost, re-read my posts if you missed that. We need more gameplay, more options, new skills worth getting (all primal are trash, just passives and oh hey, everyone got them!)b:chuckleI stated this already. Stop avoiding it.

Huh, you got full josd +12 s-cards casters on your server?
You should ask Adroit or moooooo to record videos of them testing dmg, doing the fire combo they can easily reach 250k dmg on a +8 ea on r9rr gearb:laughWhat did this have to do with my post? If you stand there and let a wiz put a fire combo on you, you deserve every point of damage you take.

Can't still understand wtf is an aps ea nowadays though, I always carry my former aps gear with me in case of need but more than that...? Oh well

b:chuckleReplies in red

I wonder why archer have such an inferiority complex, when every other class thinks archers are OP as hell.
Maybe its beacuse other Servers have more Endgame classes of the other races than good geared Archers on their servers,
but on DW the completele NW r9rr+12 archer destroy absolutely everything aside from 1 Single Seeker with hax Cards.


Most feared class in NW = Archer voted for twice as many votes as 2nd class.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1629331

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

No, the problem is that every server tends to have more endgame geared archers than other classes, and the one thing archers are better at than every other class is beating the **** out of lower geared people.

So what is it archers want? You want to be the best at mass PvP (which is part of why they're so good at killing squishy geared people) AND you want to be kings of 1v1 PvP?

You guys keep trying to downplay your range and saying it doesn't matter, but as an mystic who has only 27 range, I notice a huge difference in mass PvP, even over my wizard's 30m range. If you want buffs to be as tanky as a mystic, then you have to be willing to take a huge nerf to range, which is part of the reason why you're so good in NW and TW.

Fighting vs equally geared archers, I'm still not seeing the problems you guys are talking about. Even today with full +9/10 JoSD R9rr, I'd rather have a +12 wiz or sin beating on me than a +12 archer (And on HL we actually have some hella geared sins too, though I'll admit most of our wizzies are bad/unimpressive). The only other class I'd fear more is possibly a sage barb getting lucky on knowckdown rolls and clean sweeps.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

So what is it archers want? You want to be the best at mass PvP (which is part of why they're so good at killing squishy geared people) AND you want to be kings of 1v1 PvP?

You guys keep trying to downplay your range and saying it doesn't matter, but as an mystic who has only 27 range, I notice a huge difference in mass PvP, even over my wizard's 30m range. If you want buffs to be as tanky as a mystic, then you have to be willing to take a huge nerf to range, which is part of the reason why you're so good in NW and TW.

Fighting vs equally geared archers, I'm still not seeing the problems you guys are talking about. Even today with full +9/10 JoSD R9rr, I'd rather have a +12 wiz or sin beating on me than a +12 archer (And on HL we actually have some hella geared sins too, though I'll admit most of our wizzies are bad/unimpressive). The only other class I'd fear more is possibly a sage barb getting lucky on knowckdown rolls and clean sweeps.

Ta-dah, somebody gets it!

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

So what is it archers want? You want to be the best at mass PvP (which is part of why they're so good at killing squishy geared people) AND you want to be kings of 1v1 PvP?

Did you just quote my post and then say that in order to imply that killing people with lower gear -> being good at mass pvp?

I hope not, because if so... I don't even have words to describe how stupid of a statement that would be.

We never stated anything about being "kings of 1v1 PvP." Everyone knows and everyone accepts that archers are more of a group PK class than a 1v1 class. That doesn't mean we should continue to stagnate as a class while everyone else gets massive boosts to skills that let them ignore or bypass our only defensive options.

I can actually claim to be a pure archer player. My most relevant alt is an 87 seeker with basically no gear. I would consider myself a seasonal player and my frequent absences from the game for solid periods of time have caused me to be on the wrong side of the OP gear equation my entire life in the game. This is something I accept and am used to adjusting for and improving. I am currently 3rd cast at +7 on average. This is respectable enough gear but nothing stunning in top level TW to be sure.

I have distinctly felt the frustration that I believe is the cause of this thread in my most recent season back in the game. The part that gets to me isn't that archers have poor damage. I can fix that with a +12 bow and some better cards (then I might stop hitting for 800 too). It isn't that we have low mobility (compared to purify). I can fix that with a good understanding of group pvp spacing and by predicting my opponent's movements I can be in the right places anyway (and purify really doesn't help with this important form of mobility.) Also I can escape back into my group just fine with leaps and stealth (purify is still better at this part though).

The part that bothers me most is that update after update other classes get more and more option diversity overall and more options for dealing with difficult targets and archers get nothing. Other than leaps and every now and then stealth this class plays with the same relevant option set it had when I started. Find me another class that has changed as little as the archer has over the life of the game.

Compare Venos, Wizards, Clerics, BMs, Barbs in 2008 to today and see the growth, now try the same for Archers. Sins and Psys came onto the field with a competitive option set and have grown as well. Even the EG classes have gained arguably more ground from launch to now than the Archer. That is what eats at me. I have felt the gear gap, never until now have I felt a class gap too.

I feel that the lack of expansion and option diversity of the class is slowly becoming more and more apparent in a game that is constantly growing more complex. It doesn't help that to top it off we have the lowest effective HP on both defenses by a wide margin and a nice but small range advantage and a dice roll purge to make up for it.

P.S. - Please don't only nitpick here in response to the post as a whole.
About range, since it gets brought up a lot more than I think it should. First off it is 32/34M not 35M folks, 35M is teleports on those "melee" classes. Secondly the base movement speed for characters is let's say 5M/s. Taking that we can see that 2M of range over say a Wizard is about 1/3rd of a second walking time. That isn't enough time to do anything, it doesn't even let me beat him in the stun race. This is obviously the best example for my case. I agree that in some situations against say Venos or Mystics with their 27M vs a sage Archer at 34M it gets relevant but that is still only a bit over 1s of walking distance. Third, and this is a nitpick of mine, my effective range is from 5M to 32M/34M that is actually a smaller effective space than from 0M to 30M.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really want to hear some arguments for why classes such as wizards, clerics, or venos are inferior or less useful than archers at mass PvP. How **** are you people seriously...try to argue how your respective classes are **** at mass PvP compared to archer, go for it. The only class that actually has an argument for being worse at mass PvP so needing to be good at 1v1 is sin, the rest of the classes don't even come close. Even robes are better at killing robes in mass PvP.

I would argue that clerics are relatively not that great offensively in mass pvp and they're much better off playing a support role in such a case, but then that gets made up by them essentially being magic sins in 1v1 so it's w/e.



But lbr here, archers really do need something to change. At this point, people are mostly afraid of the purge proc on r9rr bow and not the archer itself unless the archer massively out-gears them.

This is 1 of the rare topics in another class' subforums that I actually find interesting. In game, there are also many archers that complain about being squishy, underpowered and all that. I've always failed to see why. Archers are the only class that actually can kite all other classes. Their range is a great defense. They always get a charm tick before I can even find where they are and get close enough to counter attack. If they purge, it's always followed by immediate damage unlike a veno. Yes, the purge rate is rather low, but it's really hard to counter. The crit rate of archers is over the roof. These days it's a miracle to not have 3 crits in a row.

I don't think archers are horribly OP, but they sure aren't underdogs like they present themselves. They are good for mass pvp for the simple reason of having huge range. You don't see them coming easily, and they have good damage. The times I die in NW or TW, is 80% of the time archer kill or at least archer purge involved. As AA being more scared by other AA? That's just a ridiculous claim.

On the new skill upgrades, it can't be more useless then psychics. Maybe you wanted some pve upgrades on 200mil costing skills as well? b:laugh Psychics just complain less because we are so few. If there are so many archers, that is for a good reason.

OPKossy wrote: »

At least psys get a useful boost to skills.

None of the new archer skills are worth getting. At all.

... and the so-called "upgrades" are laughable at best.

1500 dmg winged shell for 60 bloods and a hell of boundary... THAT's an update!!!! U.U Kossy... aren't you a kitty? O.o You understand ea's point of view too good, you must be an stealthy ea! REVEAL!

On the other hand, I hope sparkie will listen to you as an old (creep) user when he asks for in-game advice as he mention he would do... You kinda seem to understand the different view of the different classes, not usual in here as people tends to just look at their own belly and QQ

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The purge proc is one of the main balancing factors for archers vs casters...archers don't lack damage, there are just too many p def buffs reducing that damage. After a purge, I will get hit for 5-8k from most +12 endgame archers, and that's per auto. An endgame psy might hit me for only 4-5k purged, or 6k on their slower, 200%+ m damage spells.

The simple fact is that when I have cleric, barb, and BM buffs, I can sit there tanking 2 +12 adversity sins relatively easily, but it's simply impossible for me to tank 2 +12 Firmament archers. Range is a huge factor in this, but also purge proc as well.

It's true a sin can one-shot me self-buffed and an archer can't, but we're talking different roles here.

Would zerk really actually be a game-changer for archers if it replaced purge proc? Yes, it would let you win self-buffed 1v1's, but then you'll run into the exact same problem many sins have in mass pvp - how do you kill fully buffed casters in a reasonable amount of time without having to rely on a veno for every single kill? You guys have an 8% chance per auto to do this, while Sins have to rely on getting a zerk at *exactly* the right time.

Really, none of us should actually be here debating about archers or casters - we should be over in seeker forums demanding nerfs for seekers. The only reason we aren't is because the majority of seekers simply don't understand how to use QPQ genie/apoth/skill combos.

Agree on the seeker point, one crazy Seeker in our server just pwns self-buffed half of end-games in server with the metal combo (ofc if not avoided in time for a paralyze, lag, distraction or cool-down).

With the purge proc... well, I'd prefer Zerk-criting, but that's up to everyone and it won't happen anyway. The problem as stated many times is not the lack of role, of kills, of purges... if the lack of updates. We've been the exact same class since R9 bow came and gave us the new "endgame purge **** role". That's all for ea's lately... which can be pretty sad when you see other's using 10x skills when we just use... 4 + zhen?

Other classes that can get a purge weapon or have purge as as skill. Venos, Barbs, Blademasters, Assassins. All of these either comes on r8 recast, s2 nirvana, or a skill. And I don't wanna hear "Oh your bow procs all the time" its a 0.08% that's 8% every other weapon proc in the game has a higher chance of going off. And all the above classes who get it via a weapon suffer the same chance of purging another person, except venos and barbs who can get it as a skill, purge and clean sweap respectively. OH also every class can use the genie skill on the Longevity Eruption Fist 10% chance to purge.

Every class, regardless of gears is afraid of being purged. Yes I get the QQ of us maining a purge weapon, but hell I'd take Purify Spell to kite better, or even GoF to deal more damage w/o purge. I can't count the times I've been GoF crit'd for 20k+ by end game sins, bms, and seekers w/o even trying. So please don't say archer's are deadly just because of the weapon when the classes with GoF outhit our standard crits against other equally geared classes with a weapon proc.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The purge proc is one of the main balancing factors for archers vs casters...archers don't lack damage, there are just too many p def buffs reducing that damage. After a purge, I will get hit for 5-8k from most +12 endgame archers, and that's per auto. An endgame psy might hit me for only 4-5k purged, or 6k on their slower, 200%+ m damage spells.

The simple fact is that when I have cleric, barb, and BM buffs, I can sit there tanking 2 +12 adversity sins relatively easily, but it's simply impossible for me to tank 2 +12 Firmament archers. Range is a huge factor in this, but also purge proc as well.

It's true a sin can one-shot me self-buffed and an archer can't, but we're talking different roles here.

So your complaint is QQpurge? Really? You don't think it's a little messed up that you, as a caster, can tank two +12 adversity dagger assassins? You think archers are completely capable killers just because we tend to have the purge weapon? Don't you take into account that your purify proc means you have a higher chance of getting *** rocketed out of a situation that would have otherwise killed you by all means than to actually be dealt a purge?

What you are actually complaining about is the fact that you are able to be range purged, you are essentially complaining about the fact that you do indeed have at least a single weakness. I've got news for you and it may come as a shock, EVERYONE is vulnerable to purge. Purge is everyone's weakness, and no one is more weak to it than archers themselves, as we have the worst defenses and no useful self buffs. You are complaining about something that doesn't even affect you the most, You still have the chance to puri, run away, use defensive skills/heals, rebuff...we become sitting ****ing ducks.

Our complaint is that everything is now our weakness. We were always a class with defined limits. Heavies were not our strong point, and required great difficulty to kill or were not even possible for us to kill. Robes were supposed to be our thing...because they were squishy, which they are not at all anymore, and with purify, we can hit them forever, only proc their purify and have to pray for a purge to even have a chance of killing them while they run circles around us (literally). They have become another weakness of ours.
So now, as the squishiest class, what are we supposed to be good at? What is our strength supposed to be? Anything can easily kill us, we can't easily kill anything. Purge isn't our "balancer" it's our last lifeline.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

So your complaint is QQpurge? Really? You don't think it's a little messed up that you, as a caster, can tank two +12 adversity dagger assassins? You think archers are completely capable killers just because we tend to have the purge weapon? Don't you take into account that your purify proc means you have a higher chance of getting *** rocketed out of a situation that would have otherwise killed you by all means than to actually be dealt a purge?

What you are actually complaining about is the fact that you are able to be range purged, you are essentially complaining about the fact that you do indeed have at least a single weakness. I've got news for you and it may come as a shock, EVERYONE is vulnerable to purge. Purge is everyone's weakness, and no one is more weak to it than archers themselves, as we have the worst defenses and no useful self buffs. You are complaining about something that doesn't even affect you the most, You still have the chance to puri, run away, use defensive skills/heals, rebuff...we become sitting ****ing ducks.

Our complaint is that everything is now our weakness. We were always a class with defined limits. Heavies were not our strong point, and required great difficulty to kill or were not even possible for us to kill. Robes were supposed to be our thing...because they were squishy, which they are not at all anymore, and with purify, we can hit them forever, only proc their purify and have to pray for a purge to even have a chance of killing them while they run circles around us (literally). They have become another weakness of ours.
So now, as the squishiest class, what are we supposed to be good at? What is our strength supposed to be? Anything can easily kill us, we can't easily kill anything. Purge isn't our "balancer" it's our last lifeline.

Your strength is your ability to output constant, hard-to-avoid DPS without the need for chi or high start-up/channeling times.

Have you considered WHY I can tank 2 sins but not 2 archers? Part of it is that the 2 archers will have near 100% uptime on me no matter what I do. The only way to counter 2 archers is to IG. For sins, I can stagger defensive options - a vacuity alone gives me at least 20 seconds of near immunity to sins, while saccing a chiyu gives me another 20 seconds. Vs 2 archers? Doesn't matter, they'll still be auto'ing me, and having a decent chance to purge my devil chiyu and verdant shell buffs - one of the very few things they can't purge is IG, but they can counter anything else a mystic throws at them. Again, your 34m range is a huge factor in this situation. Range is king in mass PvP, and you guys have the most of it.

It might be because you don't have maxed out gears, but an archer with +12 phy NW neck + maxed out gears and buffs can tank 2 sins under WoG easily as well. Sins are amazing at killing squishies and badly geared players, but lose a lot of their power once the enemy doesn't drop within 6-8 seconds.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Your strength is your ability to output constant, hard-to-avoid DPS without the need for chi or high start-up/channeling times.

Have you considered WHY I can tank 2 sins but not 2 archers? Part of it is that the 2 archers will have near 100% uptime on me no matter what I do. The only way to counter 2 archers is to IG. For sins, I can stagger defensive options - a vacuity alone gives me at least 20 seconds of near immunity to sins, while saccing a chiyu gives me another 20 seconds. Vs 2 archers? Doesn't matter, they'll still be auto'ing me, and having a decent chance to purge my devil chiyu and verdant shell buffs - one of the very few things they can't purge is IG, but they can counter anything else a mystic throws at them. Again, your 34m range is a huge factor in this situation. Range is king in mass PvP, and you guys have the most of it.

It might be because you don't have maxed out gears, but an archer with +12 phy NW neck + maxed out gears and buffs can tank 2 sins under WoG easily as well. Sins are amazing at killing squishies and badly geared players, but lose a lot of their power once the enemy doesn't drop within 6-8 seconds.

Your argument is still based on the fact that archers purge. What if those two archer's DDing on you were s3 nirvana +12. No chance to purge, you'd be fairing a lot better. All I'm seeing is what Kossy pointed out, the fear of the purge aka the weapon over the archer. And every class is scared of being purged regardless of gear. Can we please move beyond this, every end game archer and their mother is tired of hearing this argument. The Archer class itself has remained stagnant since Morai, which is 2yrs ago I believe. This was the last update we received any sort of good upgrade the leaps were long overdue and stealth.

This is the archer section. The BM section is fourth section down. Go complain there.