All may not be lost for archers?

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

This is the archer section. The BM section is fourth section down. Go complain there.

Why so mean

In my opinion (which you may not agree with, which is totally fine so long as you are willing to partially concede/compromise and meet me halfway. Of course if you dont that means you are an unreasonable individual, which is just my opinion). Opinions cant be wrong especially if you consider how they can be based on unbiased personal emotions/beliefs. Opinions are also very useful and add much to a discussion on balance. b:thanks

Burnout - Harshlands

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

@Silvaf - Just stop right now.

@Burnout - tbh, if an equal geared sin cannot kill an archer 1v1, they either got really unlucky or they suck pretty bad. A mystic is much better equipped to deal with sins automatically due to Verdant Shell+devil leech, spam heals, puri proc, and a ton of low-cost CC. Archers on the other hand, just have a couple anti-stuns, two leaps (and GG if you leap and get caught in the air by telestun), a small shield, and well...that's about it.

Actually due to the way buffs work in this game, with full buffs an archer can actually be tankier than a mystic despite the mystic's verdant shell bonus.

Link to Archer

Link to Mystic


The 2 calcs show very similar gears (there might be slight differences but it doesn't change the overall argument), with cleric, self, and BM buffs. While the sage mystic does end up with about 1.2k more p def, it's not nearly enough to overcome the archer's 4k hp and 5 defense levels advantage. "Triple p def buffs" are not as op on casters as a lot of people think.

It's true mystics have purify proc, but the chance of it proccing on a DPH sin when you actually need it is low enough that most times if you rely on it, you end up dying.

Keep in mind the archer can also WoG for an extra 30% damage reduction which puts his defense far higher than a mystic's. The mystic can tank an extra sin due to falling petals and BiTC, but then again mystic is also a very defensive-oriented class, with less offensive capabilities compared to an archer.

We could compare to wizzies, but I think that pans out even worse due to them not having innate stun resist or the damage reduction from WoG. Their main advantage is an extra 20% p def from stone barrier and distance shrink (which as you mentioned can get them stuck in the air).

Eoria - Harshlands

If you're going to make a calc comparison, use same gear? I mean...

http://pwcalc.com/7c28fd01b2a302c3

http://pwcalc.com/579979cd5b13e25a

trands

OPKossy wrote: »

And the recent posts simply serve to prove:

The archer itself? Nobody's that worried about them. But purge on the weapon? THAT'S what the arguments against always fall back to. Never mind that every class is capable of purging. Just that it's most common from archers because their weapon purges and their offensive skills in general are bad enough that they have to rely on autos above anything else, which means a greater chance to purge over time.... and again, goes back to the fact people are worried more about getting purged than the archer.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense.
1) The exact same goes for GoF. Seekers without GoF wouldn't scare anyone. Sins without GoF don't scare anyone.
2) As a caster, I fear archer purge way more then any other. It's the only purge that's always immediately followed by a big number. On a class with more range then me on top of it, meaning I can't simply kite.
3) 34m purge chance vs melee purge chance. I know what I prefer to face.

You can't take them appart saying it's the weapon. It's the purge on the archer class specifically that's dangerous.

Burnout - Harshlands

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

If you're going to make a calc comparison, use same gear? I mean...

http://pwcalc.com/7c28fd01b2a302c3

http://pwcalc.com/579979cd5b13e25a

But does this change my argument in any way? I even made a disclaimer in my links that the gears are slightly different, but that making them equal would not have made a significant difference.

In your two links, the archer actually ends up with only 334 less p def than the mystic, while having 3k more hp and 3 extra defense levels, which still makes him ~18-19% tankier than the mystic vs sins, while also having the option of popping WoG for an extra 30% damage reduction.

I also forgot to set the archer to lvl 105 but that's a difference of a couple hp, assuming the archer doesn't put those pts into vit.

AsMyliuTave - Sanctuary

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

But does this change my argument in any way? I even made a disclaimer in my links that the gears are slightly different, but that making them equal would not have made a significant difference.

In your two links, the archer actually ends up with only 334 less p def than the mystic, while having 3k more hp and 3 extra defense levels, which still makes him ~18-19% tankier than the mystic vs sins, while also having the option of popping WoG for an extra 30% damage reduction.

I also forgot to set the archer to lvl 105 but that's a difference of a couple hp, assuming the archer doesn't put those pts into vit.

You also forgot to mention the difference in MDef. I'm pretty sure casters do occasionally poke you, don't they? There are quite a few of them around. This is a discussion on general squishyness after all, not just a discussion of weakness against physical attacks.

Socqar - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Actually due to the way buffs work in this game, with full buffs an archer can actually be tankier than a mystic despite the mystic's verdant shell bonus.

Link to Archer

Link to Mystic


The 2 calcs show very similar gears (there might be slight differences but it doesn't change the overall argument), with cleric, self, and BM buffs. While the sage mystic does end up with about 1.2k more p def, it's not nearly enough to overcome the archer's 4k hp and 5 defense levels advantage. "Triple p def buffs" are not as op on casters as a lot of people think.

It's true mystics have purify proc, but the chance of it proccing on a DPH sin when you actually need it is low enough that most times if you rely on it, you end up dying.

Keep in mind the archer can also WoG for an extra 30% damage reduction which puts his defense far higher than a mystic's. The mystic can tank an extra sin due to falling petals and BiTC, but then again mystic is also a very defensive-oriented class, with less offensive capabilities compared to an archer.

We could compare to wizzies, but I think that pans out even worse due to them not having innate stun resist or the damage reduction from WoG. Their main advantage is an extra 20% p def from stone barrier and distance shrink (which as you mentioned can get them stuck in the air).

You also forgot to make the Mystic's ring +12... http://pwcalc.com/d7ea4a3ae2b4aa45 7k more phys.def.... Yeah, sure, Mystic's have equal defence than ea's...

That's not slight difference, that's giving a biased result.

Burnout - Harshlands

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

You also forgot to make the Mystic's ring +12... http://pwcalc.com/d7ea4a3ae2b4aa45 7k more phys.def.... Yeah, sure, Mystic's have equal defence than ea's...

That's not slight difference, that's giving a biased result.

Umm, where the hell do you find a ring that gives 1658 + 1575 total p. def? I'd sure like that version of the ring...

If anything my calc was slightly biased towards mystic, as I gave it higher p. def bonus from R9r ring through yellow stats and a matchless cape (I believe this was based of Aeliah's calc, which is why it has engravings on ring while archer one doesn't.)

As for the mention of Eoria's calc and mag def...the mystic has ~26.79% more survivability to magic, but again this doesn't take into account WoG, and it also doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint to make archers tankier than casters to both phy and mag damage at the same time.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Actually due to the way buffs work in this game, with full buffs an archer can actually be tankier than a mystic despite the mystic's verdant shell bonus.

Link to Archer

Link to Mystic


The 2 calcs show very similar gears (there might be slight differences but it doesn't change the overall argument), with cleric, self, and BM buffs. While the sage mystic does end up with about 1.2k more p def, it's not nearly enough to overcome the archer's 4k hp and 5 defense levels advantage. "Triple p def buffs" are not as op on casters as a lot of people think.

The term is triple pdef ornament, not buff, no one cares about buffs, discussing class balance with other classes buffs is very silly, borderline stupid, in that situation purge = omg hax

Most archers go mdef neck, pdef ring. LA and all. Vs archers/sins/bm's condor + kite if you're getting pummelled = good chance you'll live. Magic never misses, you have no option but to take it in the face.

Most casters go pdef neck pdef ring, get a self buff to pdef (wiz/cleric/mystic) , and have more pdef than archers, and obviously more mdef, self buffed.

Best advice I can give a caster, if you get purged, rebuff. If you're worried about archers, hint: they get a 50% damage nerf within 5 metres, purify proc into their face and stay there. GG.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

In your two links, the archer actually ends up with only 334 less p def than the mystic, while having 3k more hp and 3 extra defense levels, which still makes him ~18-19% tankier than the mystic vs sins, while also having the option of popping WoG for an extra 30% damage reduction.

Don't throw out WoG like it's a sudden gamechanging catch-all defensive option for archers that has no equivalent elsewhere.

Absurdly spammable self-heals, anyone? Salvation pet? Purify proc?
Nope, let's ignore all of that and point out that archers can have a 1-spark-cost 30% damage reduction 50% of the time, even though that's just about all they've got.

Also, are you really going to tell me that it sounds reasonable that arcane classes have essentially equal pdef (granted with ~17% lower hp) to LAs while also having double their mdef?


The mystic has an average defense reduction of 86.25%: 13.75% damage taken. The archer has an average defense reduction of 80%: 20% damage taken. Let's look at survivability now.

Assuming an attacker with 120 attack levels (our archer calc has 119, our mystic calc has 122; reasonable enough):
Archer: 19203 / 1.08 / .2 = 88902 effective hp
Mystic: 16039 / 1.11 / .1375 = 105087 effective hp

So the class that has significantly more defensive options (and yes, that is the Mystic here, we aren't idiots) also has significantly (~18%) more average survivability while just sitting there afk. Makes sense doesn't it?

WannaBM - Archosaur

I try to stay away from this thread, but it still itches each time i see the title that sounds so melodramatic for one of the most OP classes in the game.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Don't throw out WoG like it's a sudden gamechanging catch-all defensive option for archers that has no equivalent elsewhere.

Absurdly spammable self-heals, anyone? Salvation pet? Purify proc?
Nope, let's ignore all of that and point out that archers can have a 1-spark-cost 30% damage reduction 50% of the time, even though that's just about all they've got.

Also, are you really going to tell me that it sounds reasonable that arcane classes have essentially equal pdef (granted with ~17% lower hp) to LAs while also having double their mdef?


The mystic has an average defense reduction of 86.25%: 13.75% damage taken. The archer has an average defense reduction of 80%: 20% damage taken. Let's look at survivability now.

Assuming an attacker with 120 attack levels (our archer calc has 119, our mystic calc has 122; reasonable enough):
Archer: 19203 / 1.08 / .2 = 88902 effective hp
Mystic: 16039 / 1.11 / .1375 = 105087 effective hp

So the class that has significantly more defensive options (and yes, that is the Mystic here, we aren't idiots) also has significantly (~18%) more average survivability while just sitting there afk. Makes sense doesn't it?

+1 b:cute
Archers are broken - way too OP at being squishy.

Socqar - Lost City

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

+1 b:cute
Archers are broken - way too OP at being squishy.

You're only full vit +11, that's not endgame, gtfo now b:angry

**hides gear**
+1 on OP squishiness

Eoria - Harshlands

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Don't throw out WoG like it's a sudden gamechanging catch-all defensive option for archers that has no equivalent elsewhere.

Absurdly spammable self-heals, anyone? Salvation pet? Purify proc?
Nope, let's ignore all of that and point out that archers can have a 1-spark-cost 30% damage reduction 50% of the time, even though that's just about all they've got.

If we wish to go down this route, mystics have an 8 second 50% damage reduction that only costs 30 chi, but it is a 90sec cd. It does freeze though so vs. an archer, it probably needs to be used in conjunction with an anti-stun. b:shutup

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Umm, where the hell do you find a ring that gives 1658 + 1575 total p. def? I'd sure like that version of the ring...

If anything my calc was slightly biased towards mystic, as I gave it higher p. def bonus from R9r ring through yellow stats and a matchless cape (I believe this was based of Aeliah's calc, which is why it has engravings on ring while archer one doesn't.)

As for the mention of Eoria's calc and mag def...the mystic has ~26.79% more survivability to magic, but again this doesn't take into account WoG, and it also doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint to make archers tankier than casters to both phy and mag damage at the same time.

LA has the worst defensive stats in the game, idk where the *** you're getting this statement we're tankier. But end game casters and HA classes have more pdef and mdef then us. I know a veno in non r9s3 who's rocking over 30k pdef(in fox form). With most likely another around 20k mdef, and this is in AA gears s3nirvana. Prior to this update, End game barbs had 30k+ pdef with over 20k mdef buffed. Alot of archers just now crossing over that threshold of 20k in resists. I'm not even gonna mention, blademasters with marrows.

opkossy

trands wrote: »

Sorry, but this is just nonsense.
1) The exact same goes for GoF. Seekers without GoF wouldn't scare anyone. Sins without GoF don't scare anyone.
2) As a caster, I fear archer purge way more then any other. It's the only purge that's always immediately followed by a big number. On a class with more range then me on top of it, meaning I can't simply kite.
3) 34m purge chance vs melee purge chance. I know what I prefer to face.

You can't take them appart saying it's the weapon. It's the purge on the archer class specifically that's dangerous.

I already covered your attempt at a counter argument in my edit.

And if we want to go down that route... most archers would gladly give up purge for a weapon proc that either gets them much better defensive and kiting options (purify) or amped their damage and worked with all of their skills (zerk).

And as has been stated numerous times here..... EVERY CLASS HAS ACCESS TO PURGE. Acting like it's an archer exclusive thing at this point is nothing more than an exercise in ignorance.




On a side note, I lol'd at the attempt to claim that LA had better defense than (anything) earlier. Seriously that was some funny **** there.

Socqar - Lost City

OPKossy wrote: »

I already covered your attempt at a counter argument in my edit.

And if we want to go down that route... most archers would gladly give up purge for a weapon proc that either gets them much better defensive and kiting options (purify) or amped their damage and worked with all of their skills (zerk).

And as has been stated numerous times here..... EVERY CLASS HAS ACCESS TO PURGE. Acting like it's an archer exclusive thing at this point is nothing more than an exercise in ignorance.

On a side note, I lol'd at the attempt to claim that LA had better defense than (anything) earlier. Seriously that was some funny **** there.

I u!

Some ppl should really try other classes before judging, and state to facts!

Burnout - Harshlands

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LA has the worst defensive stats in the game, idk where the *** you're getting this statement we're tankier. But end game casters and HA classes have more pdef and mdef then us. I know a veno in non r9s3 who's rocking over 30k pdef(in fox form). With most likely another around 20k mdef, and this is in AA gears s3nirvana. Prior to this update, End game barbs had 30k+ pdef with over 20k mdef buffed. Alot of archers just now crossing over that threshold of 20k in resists. I'm not even gonna mention, blademasters with marrows.

Archers are so convinced their class and LA sucks that they'll ignore evidence presented, even with mine and Eoria's calcs, that archers can be competitive in terms of tankiness, especially with full buffs. I don't know of any casters on my server even close to rocking 37k p. def with JoSD. If you do, tell me.

You simply can't compare a non-endgame geared archer to endgame-p-def maxed casters. Are you guys not using p. def charms against sins? If so, you deserve to die. I know of a sin on my server that can crit me for 26k with FULL buffs, I've been hit for 9k, 7k, 8k autos in a row by archers while purged. And I have 12k hp base. Do the math. +9/10 archers usually have ~20% or more base hp than me. Robes have the worst HP in the game, and resists are only good if you have the hp to back it up.

Wanna see how tanky someone is with 60k p. def but only 5k hp?

IF we're on this route, wizards honestly need the most defensive help, because all they have is 1 leap every 10 seconds that bugs out half the time, and we need 2 sparks minimum to even have a chance at killing any max geared opponent.

opkossy

I was going through your post biting my tongue and deciding not to comment for the sake of my sanity because of how absurdly wrong it is on every point.

Then you have the nerve to spout this line of... total BS

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

IF we're on this route, wizards honestly need the most defensive help, because all they have is 1 leap every 10 seconds that bugs out half the time, and we need 2 sparks minimum to even have a chance at killing any max geared opponent.

I'm sorry but NO. There is no way you can honestly say that's true with a straight face on because of how utterly and stupidly wrong it is.
http://pwcalc.com/4535948630528617 does NOT need a buff to defense. It already has crazy physical defense, can still get a FOURTH pdef buff from base/buff pills, has crazy mdef, can nuke the hell out of most everything, has godly mobility via purify spell, plus distance shrink, PLUS reversions, PLUS blinding blaze, PLUS sand miasma and arcane defense.... frankly wizards have enough as is.

Oh and that calc doesn't use any lucky coin engraves... or take into account meridians... or the new passive skills to boost defense, skill damage, and crit that CANNOT BE PURGED. Oh and there's also no use of cards or nuema or spirit either! That's right, it can be even WORSE than what I linked easily!

Yeah, no. I love my wiz and as much as I want to be uber on it while I'm playing it, I can't just stand there and be silent when you're saying something so... so... downright stupid that the only possible excuse is you're purposefully lying out your *** to try and make archers look better than they are while downplaying literally EVERYTHING that your class has going for it.

At least the archers in this thread have the honesty to admit to what little they have in their favor. You're refusing to do even that much.



PS: They aren't ignoring any evidence to the contrary. In case you've forgotten, archers were the ones that did the math proving what they're saying now back when all the other classes still came to these subforums to learn more about their own classes since the archers generally stayed focused and brought highly relevant and informative posts to the table when it came to game mechanics.


Edit: And that above rant is without even dipping into your complete lie about lack of offense. Seriously what the hell were you thinking?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers are so convinced their class and LA sucks that they'll ignore evidence presented, even with mine and Eoria's calcs, that archers can be competitive in terms of tankiness, especially with full buffs. I don't know of any casters on my server even close to rocking 37k p. def with JoSD. If you do, tell me.

You simply can't compare a non-endgame geared archer to endgame-p-def maxed casters. Are you guys not using p. def charms against sins? If so, you deserve to die. I know of a sin on my server that can crit me for 26k with FULL buffs, I've been hit for 9k, 7k, 8k autos in a row by archers while purged. And I have 12k hp base. Do the math. +9/10 archers usually have ~20% or more base hp than me. Robes have the worst HP in the game, and resists are only good if you have the hp to back it up.

Wanna see how tanky someone is with 60k p. def but only 5k hp?

IF we're on this route, wizards honestly need the most defensive help, because all they have is 1 leap every 10 seconds that bugs out half the time, and we need 2 sparks minimum to even have a chance at killing any max geared opponent.

How about someone with 30k hp and only 5k phys/magic def. (I know highly unlikely) but you really can't neglect any stat that helps reduce the damage you take, the same goes for the damage you are able to take. (though you didn't say that the opposite was any better.) *hides*

That aside I agree attacks/purge (in purges defense... it is what it is suppose to do... make it easier to take down a fully buffed opponent) often do too much that is just seems like it completely ignores the defensive stats of an opponent. I think that this has gotten worse too with the mainstream of attack/defense level boosts.

Burnout - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How about someone with 30k hp and only 5k phys/magic def. (I know highly unlikely) but you really can't neglect any stat that helps reduce the damage you take, the same goes for the damage you are able to take. (though you didn't say that the opposite was any better.) *hides*

That's my point, archers keep complaining about how LA has the worst resists in the game, but AA has the worst HP in game, bar none. Total defense is a function of resists, defense levels, % reduction, and max HP.

The only reason wizards and mystics aren't getting ***** left and right is because they gave us a 100% p. def buff, otherwise, we'd be a lot squishier than archers.

On my server, if a cleric or psy is only +10 and non-endgame shards, they are a one-shot to +12 weps unless they put points in vit.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers are so convinced their class and LA sucks that they'll ignore evidence presented, even with mine and Eoria's calcs, that archers can be competitive in terms of tankiness, especially with full buffs. I don't know of any casters on my server even close to rocking 37k p. def with JoSD. If you do, tell me.

You simply can't compare a non-endgame geared archer to endgame-p-def maxed casters. Are you guys not using p. def charms against sins? If so, you deserve to die. I know of a sin on my server that can crit me for 26k with FULL buffs, I've been hit for 9k, 7k, 8k autos in a row by archers while purged. And I have 12k hp base. Do the math. +9/10 archers usually have ~20% or more base hp than me. Robes have the worst HP in the game, and resists are only good if you have the hp to back it up.

Wanna see how tanky someone is with 60k p. def but only 5k hp?

IF we're on this route, wizards honestly need the most defensive help, because all they have is 1 leap every 10 seconds that bugs out half the time, and we need 2 sparks minimum to even have a chance at killing any max geared opponent.

I like how you quote his post, which was easy for you to reject with vague hand-waving (which was wrong anyway), and completely ignored my post with actual numbers showing you were incorrect.

Burnout - Harshlands

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

I like how you quote his post, which was easy for you to reject with vague hand-waving (which was wrong anyway), and completely ignored my post with actual numbers showing you were incorrect.

I'm ignoring you because your numbers were blatantly wrong.

Archer - has 87% p def reduction

Caster - has 87% p def reduction

The archer also has an extra 3 def lvls. He's clearly has better survivability to phy def than the caster (and lets not forget that phy classes do miss occasionally on archers but rarely on casters), while the caster is tankier to magic damage (but considering magic defense is AA's specialty, I think that's warranted).

Eoria - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

On my server, if a cleric or psy is only +10 and non-endgame shards, they are a one-shot to +12 weps unless they put points in vit.

Uhh...lolwut? If a cleric's getting one-shot a lot from +12 weps at +10 armor, that's not because of their build or gear. That's just because they're bad.

opkossy

My rant lat page got skipped.

Gee. I wonder why...

Burnout - Harshlands

OPKossy wrote: »

My rant lat page got skipped.

Gee. I wonder why...

Your link went to a calc using gears that aren't even currently attainable. Refer to the post I just made above, comparing actual, attainable in-game endgame armors with optimal ornaments/shards.

Sometimes I think archers only see the 15% of the time when we blow 2 sparks and 4 seconds to crit a blade tempest, and ignore the other 90% of the time when we're gushing people for 4-5k, and that's only after wasting 1.5 seconds standing there casting a 0 damage debuff (and since we have very little forms of reliable "hard" CC, they can freely AD, holy path, WoG, turtle, you name it, they can probably do it).

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm ignoring you because your numbers were blatantly wrong.

Archer - has 87% p def reduction

Caster - has 87% p def reduction

The archer also has an extra 3 def lvls. He's clearly has better survivability to phy def than the caster (and lets not forget that phy classes do miss occasionally on archers but rarely on casters), while the caster is tankier to magic damage (but considering magic defense is AA's specialty, I think that's warranted).

My post covered average survivability, not merely physical -- and for average (phys AND mag) survivability, no, my numbers are not wrong. Let's try not pigeonholing ourselves to just the one situation, eh?

Phys classes (yes, that includes archers) miss occasionally... when do casters miss again?

Claiming that AAs being tankier to magic damage is "warranted" because mdef is the AA's specialty is absurd when since their mdef is so much higher that it brings the AA's survivability in a complete 180 from being so "disadvantaged" like you seem to enjoy claiming to being 18% tankier on average. What defensive bonus do archers get because of some "specialty?" Evasion? Don't tell me you honestly think evasion gives a reasonable amount of defense.

opkossy

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Your link went to a calc using gears that aren't even currently attainable. Refer to the post I just made above, comparing actual, attainable in-game endgame armors with optimal ornaments/shards.

Sometimes I think archers only see the 15% of the time when we blow 2 sparks and 4 seconds to crit a blade tempest, and ignore the other 90% of the time when we're gushing people for 4-5k, and that's only after wasting 1.5 seconds standing there casting a 0 damage debuff (and since we have very little forms of reliable "hard" CC, they can freely AD, holy path, WoG, turtle, you name it, they can probably do it).

1: The stats for the gear was all input manually to match gear that currently exists as PWCalc hasn't been updated in a while.

2: Way to completely ignore your own class strengths. Really do you think the only thing wizzies can do to kill people is BT? All your arguments thus far completely ignore the strengths of casters in general while you attempt to blow what archers can do out of proportion with baseless exaggerations. Meanwhile, when hard math, logic, and fact come in and prove you wrong you... completely ignore or gloss over it.



For example your claim about defenses. It's totally fair that the arcane class has greater physical defense than the LA phys class and ALSO has greater mdef than said LA so that the arcane is both dealing vastly more damage AND taking less damage? Yeah that totally makes sense... not.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

OPKossy wrote: »

Really do you think the only thing wizzies can do to kill people is BT?

Would explain a lot, actually...

Burnout - Harshlands

OPKossy wrote: »

1: The stats for the gear was all input manually to match gear that currently exists as PWCalc hasn't been updated in a while.

2: Way to completely ignore your own class strengths. Really do you think the only thing wizzies can do to kill people is BT? All your arguments thus far completely ignore the strengths of casters in general while you attempt to blow what archers can do out of proportion with baseless exaggerations. Meanwhile, when hard math, logic, and fact come in and prove you wrong you... completely ignore or gloss over it.



For example your claim about defenses. It's totally fair that the arcane class has greater physical defense than the LA phys class and ALSO has greater mdef than said LA so that the arcane is both dealing vastly more damage AND taking less damage? Yeah that totally makes sense... not.

Again, you talk about me ignoring your posts, when you yourself ignored my analysis of Archer vs Caster when both have equal gears. I already addressed your post - it doesn't contain anything useful because you provided an OP link of an absolutely maxed Caster, without also providing a comparison link of an equally super-maxed Archer. Then you went on an anecdotal list of wizard abilities, without comparing the utility Archers get, or downplaying them to the maximum when you do list their abilities.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm ignoring you because your numbers were blatantly wrong.

Archer - has 87% p def reduction

Caster - has 87% p def reduction

The archer also has an extra 3 def lvls. He's clearly has better survivability to phy def than the caster (and lets not forget that phy classes do miss occasionally on archers but rarely on casters), while the caster is tankier to magic damage (but considering magic defense is AA's specialty, I think that's warranted).

Take my calcs above, and the numbers I put in below.

Archer survivability vs physical: 1336.4

Caster survivability vs physical: 1104.6

The archer has 1336.4/1104.6 = 21.0% more survivability to physical.

Archer survivability vs magical: 620.5

Caster survivability vs magical: 797.8

The Caster has 797.8/620.5 = 28.6% more survivability to magical.

The caster comes out slightly ahead on magic defense.

However, we're also factoring in a class skill - mystic's verdant shell, while ignoring everything the archer has for defensive options. Lets remove ALL buffs from both chars to simulate a purge.


Archer purged, no class skills

Mystic purged, no class skills

Archer survivability vs physical: 723.9

Caster survivability vs physical: 463.2

The archer has 1336.4/1104.6 = 56.3% more survivability to physical.

Archer survivability vs magical: 620.5

Caster survivability vs magical: 797.8

The Caster has 797.8/620.5 = 28.6% more survivability to magical.

In this situation, without factoring in any buffs, class-specific skills, or anything else, the archer comes out far ahead in physical defense, while falling behind only slightly in magic defense.

Now, if we factor in various class skills, things become a bit murkier. Is verdant shell better than WoG? Is archer stealth and leaps better than mystic heals? Is archer stun better than a wizard's seal? Those are specific to their class, and thus don't apply in a comparison between base LA vs AA.

The addition of cards and meridians also complicates matters, but not as much as you would expect. Casters get less benefit from durability cards and less p. def from meridians. Archers actually have higher % multiplier values for their combined durability and longevity cards than casters.

Even through all this, I can admit that at *extreme, ultimate endgame, meaing nuema portal, maxed meridian, maxed and perfect engravings on all gears* levels of gears, there is a slight scaling problem that ends up giving a decent defensive edge to casters. But until PWI actually gets to private server levels, those scaling issues are insignificant here.