All may not be lost for archers?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Kalopsia, full r9rr+12 jaded, NW upgrade, and s card et takes about 1k from my +10 dags non crit. I'm sure you could do better with metal attacks or physical. The bs archers come with is bull, if you are doing 800 damage, you are attacking a seeker or barb or bm, at that point, they are meant to resist physical dmg. What did you expect? Learn to play your class better and learn how do deal damage, not tab kill. Sins learn how to amp in pve, archers can do the same.

I think the lower base attack and the lower attack granted from war avatar cards is justified, considering assassins are the only constant high crit rate class with zerk. So from +10 dags on a toon like that, it seems about right. I'm assuming that's buffed.

The advantage sin's have in PvP over archers is that they can build their genie a lot more offensively with amps/debuffs etc, archers could do the same but are gambling a lot and usually prefer to stick with a more defence orientated genie.

We also lack spike damage and are more dps focussed.

The point on target selection is a fair one, we should focus on casters/LA classes as primary targets but assisting on HA is fine too, won't really solo take down someone like Kalopsia.

At endgame without a purge you don't deal enough dps to kill much (target also being endgame). Much of the fight is dropping enough non-status effect skills/auto's whilst kiting to get a purge and then capitalise on it. Some one like PG_Junior whilst buffed for example could tank triple sparked auto attacks (not that I would do this lel) perfectly fine, whereas if I kite him around and sneak through a purge followed by a stun, EP, could probably charm bypass w/o sparking.

I think a subtle change like making aim low and alacrity cost less chi (50 chi sounds ok) and reducing the CD on alacrity by 1min would be fair and not game breaking. Considering how much CC has been dished out across all the classes, and especially the guaranteed CC.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

What the hell, naming names to people who are not even on your server?

800 might be an exaggeration. However, it's entirely possible for an archer with 40k attack to hit less than 2k on an endgame triple buffed wizard or veno. With the new passive ~90% pdef can be gained pretty easily.

And what about casters? Against a fully jaded archer with m def buffs, casters would be lucky to hit 3k under WoG.

Take into account that you guys have much more hp than us, plus our longer cast times, and it ends up being fairly hard to kill even a DPS class that's fully buffed. OFC you're going to hit low on a wiz or Veno - those two classes are designed to have stupid amounts of p def.

How do you expect a caster hitting 3-5k to kill a fully buffed archer when we're lucky to get off 4 spells before a charm tick?

If you're allowed to **** classes that are fully triple buffed, what happens when you purge? Remember that casters need to hit hard because we typically take 50% or longer than archers to get a spell off vs an arrow, and we have to deal with 20k+ hp archers (and that's on the low end compared to BM's, barbs, seekers, etc).

Contrary to what most archers believe we don't go around one-shotting +12 fully buffed endgame classes. Not even close (and if we do, it's typically on a spell that costs multiple sparks and 3+ seconds to cast, requires it to crit, and the enemy to be purged).

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

And what about casters? Against a fully jaded archer with m def buffs, casters would be lucky to hit 3k under WoG.

Take into account that you guys have much more hp than us, plus our longer cast times, and it ends up being fairly hard to kill even a DPS class that's fully buffed. OFC you're going to hit low on a wiz or Veno - those two classes are designed to have stupid amounts of p def.

How do you expect a caster hitting 3-5k to kill a fully buffed archer when we're lucky to get off 4 spells before a charm tick?

If you're allowed to **** classes that are fully triple buffed, what happens when you purge? Remember that casters need to hit hard because we typically take 50% or longer than archers to get a spell off vs an arrow, and we have to deal with 20k+ hp archers (and that's on the low end compared to BM's, barbs, seekers, etc).

Contrary to what most archers believe we don't go around one-shotting +12 fully buffed endgame classes. Not even close (and if we do, it's typically on a spell that costs multiple sparks and 3+ seconds to cast, requires it to crit, and the enemy to be purged).

This was being said from a +12 caster to +12 archer standpoint. +12 wizards with purify spell are far tankier then archers, and deal more damage to all classes. Its no coincidence that a good deal of the best archers on sanctuary have been rolling wizards and twing as such to feel useful again. While wizards might take longer to get a spell off, the weakest spells do far more damage then an archer auto attack, evening things out.



As for the sin idiot just spewing his mouth. Yes we do more damage on HA with metal skills, but during that channel time we are subsequently Ko'd or disabled completely. Meanwhile, sins have a plefora of skills to disable HA toons in close range and keep them under lock so easily I could train my dog to do it. Also combine that with your natural attack rate higher then demon archer with quickshot proc'd, and your ability to land crit zerks on around 12% of your hits for 4x damage, along with just random crits and zerks also, makes sins actually deal more damage to ha toons, while archers have to struggle just to stay out of range to not be shut down because of close range damage nerf.
You say you have two archers, and you use one as aps, and one as a skill spammer. Saying that alone proves you do not have the validity to post on this thread. However I do agree that these archer QQ threads are overreacting. We aren't that underpowered as they make us out to be nowadays, still being one of the dominant pvp classes in less then r999 +12 combat. My issue is that other then leaps, archers still play exactly like they did in vanilla pwi, and its stale. We need some new tricks like the rest of classes have all received, to spice things up again.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think the lower base attack and the lower attack granted from war avatar cards is justified, considering assassins are the only constant high crit rate class with zerk. So from +10 dags on a toon like that, it seems about right. I'm assuming that's buffed.

The advantage sin's have in PvP over archers is that they can build their genie a lot more offensively with amps/debuffs etc, archers could do the same but are gambling a lot and usually prefer to stick with a more defence orientated genie.

We also lack spike damage and are more dps focussed.

The point on target selection is a fair one, we should focus on casters/LA classes as primary targets but assisting on HA is fine too, won't really solo take down someone like Kalopsia.

At endgame without a purge you don't deal enough dps to kill much (target also being endgame). Much of the fight is dropping enough non-status effect skills/auto's whilst kiting to get a purge and then capitalise on it. Some one like PG_Junior whilst buffed for example could tank triple sparked auto attacks (not that I would do this lel) perfectly fine, whereas if I kite him around and sneak through a purge followed by a stun, EP, could probably charm bypass w/o sparking.

I think a subtle change like making aim low and alacrity cost less chi (50 chi sounds ok) and reducing the CD on alacrity by 1min would be fair and not game breaking. Considering how much CC has been dished out across all the classes, and especially the guaranteed CC.

Explain how it is possible for an aps sin like GatozPT to kill PG then. Obviously someone is missing something on how to kill him that Gatoz does with his +12 2x int sac g15 dags.

Also for the zerk comment. Archers have equal base crit. Assuming same gear/dex/ornies, etc. Powerdash cost 2 sparks and has a 45 sec cd, also last for 8 secs. It's a costly skill that most use to do an all in. Yes even on a sin it's costly, 2 sparks could be used to stop damage by ccing an opponent. I do agree that sin are a high damage class when they combo skills and procs, so why cant archers, a class with equal base crit, almost 2x the physical attack, and 35m range do the same? The QQ about archers low damage is bs by that fact alone. What they can do from range we have to do close up, which means they should have a much easier time getting it off in certain situations, mainly TW and NW. 1v1's ar childs play imo. They can show skill, but they account for nothing other than personal glory. TW and NW on the other hand account for a lot, and have to do with money. That's where archers shine. I even considered rolling one as a maily because lets be honest, a non-endgame sin feels worthless in the situations where every one seems to be jaded or close to end game. It's hard to even pick off people now, but I'm not complaining, just stating.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I have links to compare two similarly geared caster vs archer here.

Cleric

Archer

The archer has roughly 18% more hp, but also 6 more defense levels.

The cleric has far more m. def, but that's to be expected, as 700 mag will give 8k (? guessing here) extra m def. Archer barely beats cleric in p def.

The archer actually has higher attack than the cleric. While the caster gets a 20% damage bonus due to masteries, archer has a far higher attack speed at 1.2/hit. Cleric will typically have 1.7/hit or so.

I'm not seeing the massive damage advantage casters are getting here. Anything they get is gained from skills, which are gated by restrictive spark costs and channeling/cast times.

The main problem I see is that p def buffs are far too numerous, but that is why archers were given purge. You can't really take into account wiz/veno p def bonuses, as they are part of that class' skillset. If you were to compare that, you'd also have to compare everything archers get vs everything casters get.

The other point is, archers have never been a 1v1 class in particular, but their skillset makes them insanely effective in large-scale pvp and TW, where things often matter the most.

You gave the cleric a skycover and the archer a g16 ring, you then further skewed the results by not restatting the cleric and giving it engraves like the archer. Most +12 archers have about 28k high end base physical attack, must clerics +12 have about 38-40k highend mag attack. If you don't believe me ask the endgame toons on your server. The point is casters get way to much to warrant purify now, but that's besides the point. They out do LA classes now when purge is not involved, and if you can not purge a robe, their attacks do more damage than you, with similar def lvs and similar HP.

I do agree with the bottom bit though, archers are good where it counts. You don't see the sin forum flooded with QQ about being near useless in TW do you? No, because most of us deal with it and get better. With anti-aps buffs, more sins than ever either have gone full r9rr or full g16, while still having aps as an option.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

*snip of ranting and hate speech just because I'm posting with my sin avatar*

Awww do you hate me? Are you mad that you complain way too much for someone that claims to be so good? High natural attack rate does do **** in the worls of dph (fact). Your crit=my zerk crit (fact). Your average dps is still almost 2x that of mine in equal gear (fact). Channel time is added because of your range versus mine (fact).

If you are still complaining about the close range damage nerf, learn to kite. It really is a lost art. Yea you can be KO'ed, just like i can from 35m away. >.> You are making youself seem like someone that takes me as an idiot while ignoring the fact I am just stating facts and observations. If you think I'm an idiot for that, then you are no better than the herp derp aps sin you despise so much. It's funny really. You think i care.b:cute

P.S. I also stated that archers need new skills, not buffs. Those are two different things, or did you ignore that too as you resulted to ad hominem attacks.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

And what about casters? Against a fully jaded archer with m def buffs, casters would be lucky to hit 3k under WoG.

Take into account that you guys have much more hp than us, plus our longer cast times, and it ends up being fairly hard to kill even a DPS class that's fully buffed. OFC you're going to hit low on a wiz or Veno - those two classes are designed to have stupid amounts of p def.

How do you expect a caster hitting 3-5k to kill a fully buffed archer when we're lucky to get off 4 spells before a charm tick?

If you're allowed to **** classes that are fully triple buffed, what happens when you purge? Remember that casters need to hit hard because we typically take 50% or longer than archers to get a spell off vs an arrow, and we have to deal with 20k+ hp archers (and that's on the low end compared to BM's, barbs, seekers, etc).

Contrary to what most archers believe we don't go around one-shotting +12 fully buffed endgame classes. Not even close (and if we do, it's typically on a spell that costs multiple sparks and 3+ seconds to cast, requires it to crit, and the enemy to be purged).

Hitting 3k under WoG is OP for the archer or something? That kind of implies you hit 5k without WoG, you know, because WoG is totally as readily available as the 3rd pdef buff certain casters get.

Archers don't believe wizards go around one shotting other classes. Archers just know wizards have more tools that allow them to kill. Similarly sins auto hit for even lower than archers, but people would never reference a sin's auto hit damage as a judge of their killing capability because they simply don't rely on base attack as much.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hitting 3k under WoG is OP for the archer or something? That kind of implies you hit 5k without WoG, you know, because WoG is totally as readily available as the 3rd pdef buff certain casters get.

Archers don't believe wizards go around one shotting other classes. Archers just know wizards have more tools that allow them to kill. Similarly sins auto hit for even lower than archers, but people would never reference a sin's auto hit damage as a judge of their killing capability because they simply don't rely on base attack as much.

Again, you keep mentioning this "3rd" p def buff like all casters have easy access to it. Only 2 casters have a permanent self-p def buff, and of those two, only 1 is actually a real threat to archers. Most average archers should have an easy time vs mystics.

Venos only have their buff while shapeshifted, but it also pretty much locks out all except their debuff/melee and purge skills, and is needed because they literally have to get almost within melee range to carry out their core function. Can you imagine a human veno having to walk up to within 10m of their target to purge? They'd get absolutely *****.

Really, most posts on this thread are QQ'ing about wizards, but that's just 1 class.

Nobody is attacking the whole time in a 1v1 fight. If archers had a second form where they can get more defense but not attack, they'd use it. Anyways I was just pointing out damage ballparks in reply to someone else while you derp how much archers take with a spark skill lasting 15s. Now you see you can't argue **** you change the subject.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

And, just out of curiosty -- how many of those have the absurdly-overpowered nuema portal card set that you walk around with?

He walks around with B cards. R9 doesn't have time for card games, he's got women to satisfy.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

He's the only one on the server with the set. Probably the only one on any PWI server.

My point exactly. You can't go around saying "LOL archer damage OP I 3-shot casters" when you have an advantage that dwarfs anything anyone else has.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Go back to your hole Zanny.

Why do so many non archers post on archer forums, just wondering

Also anyone have a link to those OP cards mentioned above? I'm rocking all C cards, too lazy to get better

http://aster.ohmydays.net/pw/waravatar/#class=2&a0=6,80,2,2&a1=7,80,2,2&a2=8,80,2,2&a3=9,80,2,2&a4=54,80,0,2&a5=53,80,0,2

@ max level, play around if you don't want max leveled cards.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well..... Those.... seem gamebreaking.

The destroyer and battle cards alone give the same amount of patk as an r9r3+12 bow.

And yet somehow he thinks he speaks for all archers when he says he can 3-shot arcanes...

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well..... Those.... seem gamebreaking.

The only way to really deal with it is a constant cleric SoG with some of that new barb paralyze mixed in. Fortunately, we can pull that off.

Otherwise, well, most people on the server are one, two, or three-shot.

I don't think archers really need much, I don't have a problem with mine and I eat casters for breakfeast and HA's for lunch with my bow in TW/NW o_o

Yarr I agree we also need less nubs with 3rd cast running around that make archers but I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen. Yeah I remember leaving but it's sad when "One of the best players" needs help from 3 other 3rd cast jade people to kill little ole me Or I just stick around to **** them off!

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Your point is invalid. Stone barrier can be up 100% of the time, and isn't constantly taxing your chi. And correction, Awaken has a 5min CD. Wizzies shouldnt be complaining about anything. New fire barrier gives 15% passive crit and basically allows perma spark (tested by DragSlave himself).

I wasn't complaining about wiz. I was simply comparing defensive skills. The other point is, archers outdamage wiz unless the wiz uses high chi skills. I can't remember the last time I won vs an equally geared, skilled archer by just pressing undine, pyro, and gush (If i did, it meant the archer was undergeared). I needed either an ult, an all-in spark, pot, or sutra.

The ults and sutra cost 2 sparks each, and they can often fail since the archer can just mash WoG. This means we basically need the sparks for offense, while the archer can just sit there and literally just mash WoG, AD, and soul of fire while autoattacking.