All may not be lost for archers?

alphasinbm · February 2014

So yeah we keep getting shat on by most of these updates while barbs become damn near unkillable and arcanes being able to kite better than archers.

But hey we got a resistance buff which probably benefits us more than any other class?

I mean the whole diminishing returns thing means that it's not as good for HA's as it would be for us and it's not as good for arcanes as it is for us?

Maybe?
MAAAAAAAYYYYBBBBBBEEEE?

Lol no.

Discuss and argue away.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · February 2014

I think no matter how hard we get nerfed it's still not enough.

If half my servers clerics/venos had their way they would take away my bow and arrows and leave me with a rubber band and some spit rolled paper bullets b:sad

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

alphasinbm wrote: »

So yeah we keep getting shat on by most of these updates while barbs become damn near unkillable and arcanes being able to kite better than archers.

But hey we got a resistance buff which probably benefits us more than any other class?

I mean the whole diminishing returns thing means that it's not as good for HA's as it would be for us and it's not as good for arcanes as it is for us?

Maybe?
MAAAAAAAYYYYBBBBBBEEEE?

Lol no.

Discuss and argue away.

We're pretty screwed in recent updates, BUT we're still OP as ** if we know how to play... We have to overcome the updates with skill... or gear, that works as well xD

WTB good big update where EA's are not fked again b:surrender

Verenor - Morai · February 2014

I honestly don't get the issues..

On our servers end-game +12 archers pretty much dominate everything in NW and in TW they only die with ganked, 1v1 they kill you before you are even in range.

Sure we didn't get the most from last update but archers are far from underpowered.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

We're pretty screwed in recent updates, BUT we're still OP as ** if we know how to play... We have to overcome the updates with skill... or gear, that works as well xD

WTB good big update where EA's are not fked again b:surrender

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

I honestly don't get the issues..

On our servers end-game +12 archers pretty much dominate everything in NW and in TW they only die with ganked, 1v1 they kill you before you are even in range.

Sure we didn't get the most from last update but archers are far from underpowered.

You guys are doing it wrong. This is a 'QQ Archer nerfed QQ' thread.

Sint - Harshlands · February 2014

Archers are definitely gimpy, imo, however, everyone keeps QQing because people with huge egos consistently roll archers because everyone keeps QQing because people with huge egos consistently roll archers and spend a small fortune on gearing them.

On HL, the top 5 most retardedly geared people are 4 archers and a psy (afaik). Archers are simply horrendously overrepresented in the OP geared section of the population. The consequence is that archers end up doing most of the faceroll 1shotting.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers are definitely gimpy, imo, however, everyone keeps QQing because people with huge egos consistently roll archers because everyone keeps QQing because people with huge egos consistently roll archers and spend a small fortune on gearing them.

On HL, the top 5 most retardedly geared people are 4 archers and a psy (afaik). Archers are simply horrendously overrepresented in the OP geared section of the population. The consequence is that archers end up doing most of the faceroll 1shotting.

Unless you are in Lost City server xD Here is dominated by all but archers O.o Iirc there's not even one maxed EA in our server, a couple with Jade/Deity... but not full last time I checked them. On the other hand, we have 3 josd +12 full S Wizzys, a couple of similar EP's, like 4+ sin's, bm's... Nearly any class xD

alphasinbm · February 2014

People dont really seem to understand that the general consensus that archers are OP is because most top end geared people are archers. Probably more than any other class. It doesnt mean the class is OP. It just means people like making them really well geared. If anyone had any logic they'd point out that they're probably so well geared cause people got pissed off at being so crappy and geared the shiiit out of it. But we're on PWI so no one has any logic.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

alphasinbm wrote: »

People dont really seem to understand that the general consensus that archers are OP is because most top end geared people are archers. Probably more than any other class. It doesnt mean the class is OP. It just means people like making them really well geared. If anyone had any logic they'd point out that they're probably so well geared cause people got pissed off at being so crappy and geared the shiiit out of it. But we're on PWI so no one has any logic.

As said on the post before, go check LC server if you want to taste some OP casters ^^ Any class can be OP, face a bunch of full +12 josd nw orns full S set squads and you'll see it :P

Sadly classes are really server dependant and here people tends to ignore that fact thinking they're server's distribution of OPness is equal as in other servers, which is clearly not :P

Azura - Lost City · February 2014

I don't personally feel archers are underpowered. They have good mobility, good damage, and their survivability isn't so bad if you compare to someone with same gear.

In my server I think that the problem is just that most archers are under geared, and the classes that can kill them faster (wizards and sins) are very well equipped, so it seems like archers die 24/7.

To call some class underpowered, it would imply that they don't fill a certain expectation about the class... So, what are archers missing?

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

I don't personally feel archers are underpowered. They have good mobility, good damage, and their survivability isn't so bad if you compare to someone with same gear.

In my server I think that the problem is just that most archers are under geared, and the classes that can kill them faster (wizards and sins) are very well equipped, so it seems like archers die 24/7.

To call some class underpowered, it would imply that they don't fill a certain expectation about the class... So, what are archers missing?

Completly agree, we're not underpowered, we just have a huge luck of new stuff and that makes us QQ xD If we got some nasty-crasty skill with this update, like a new Zhen (even if it's not that hot, but at least worth geting), or a Wingspan with higher range that doesn't kill one of our close-range... We won't QQ I guess.

It's more a lack of new usefull content than being really Underpowered imho, aaaaand sume to that, people just love to QQ when they should be lvling/farming to gear up.

I usually felt Underpowered as **, then I realized I was comparing my crapy r8 +7 bow to nv3 +10 daggers... Now that I'm "geared" (not well, but least a 2-shot for endgames) the story is WAY different!

**Looks up, EA forum, corrects** -> Ea's are fked, we need upgrades, we're squishy QQ QQ...

Asterelle - Sanctuary · February 2014

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

To call some class underpowered, it would imply that they don't fill a certain expectation about the class... So, what are archers missing?

I think the expectation is that archer is supposed to be an evasion-based class with high mobility and damage dealing. In every single one of those they are upstaged by other classes.

Evasion - Only good evasion in the game is tidal protection / focus mind. The archer version of evasion is junk.

Mobility - Casters with purify spell weapon have a lot more mobility than archers. Archer mobility took a large hit with the new unblockable stuns since their 1 spark antistun is ineffective. Purify spell took a hit too but it had no cost to begin with.

Damage dealing - The spirit blackhole proc on the weapon fills much more of a support role in mass pvp than a damage dealing role. In particular you can't use it with any stun / control skill so often kills have to come with other people so you are helping someone else deal damage. A real damage dealing proc would be GoF.

Archers also lack strong burst damage you see other classes use to great effect. Ama+ToP+mire+zerkcrit, SacSlash + QPQ + zerk crit, Undine+spark+sutra+faceroll, DeepChill+Wolfemblem+mire+zerkcrit those are just scary damage. Stun+Quickshot is low effort, low reward but there aren't many other options. You can do something with ZTP but that's only real use is with a metal combo since the phys version isn't much different than stun+quickshot.

Azura - Lost City · February 2014

I like Asterelle's points. It is true that archers are now almost a support class. For pvp we pretty much just want archers because they can debuff from a safer distance than a veno.

Evasion is so non factor in this game, may as well just rename it to "Luck".

On mobility I think they are not so lost. They have 2 jumps, a skill that makes you run faster than a barb, and wog. But since they introduced a debuff that paralizes, which cannot be purified or prevented with normal anti-stuns, it would be fair to give them some boost in this section such as less cd on that skill that makes them run fast.

So, maybe PW thinks archers should be a support class, which is contrary to what most people would think of an "archer" and that's why they are doing updates the way they are doing them.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · February 2014

As the only class that gets half damage at close range..... Why don't we have a working knock back?!?!
Seriously, just patch knockback arrow and wingspan with mystic thingy, you can't use that unable to program it in excuse anymore pwi!

Also as LA is the worst armor in the game by both defense standards, especially when all 3 HA Classes get huge defense boosts, and all magic classes, except venos, who have bramble for pdef in NW still, get pdef boosts (psychic get voodoo and reflects). We are stuck with only evasion, which is nearly worthless against melees, and completely worthless against mages. Assassins get natural defense in stealth, and even if pots are being spammed, you can't ignore everyone else just to target the assassins. They also get 5 disabling skills, to the archers 3, with all of them having 100% disabling rate, as opposed to 90% on all of archers.

Archers are in no way under powered, but as every class keeps getting boosts, archers remain relatively the same, other then a few niche upgrades which only apply in unique situations. A few things that could modernize archers:

Reduce Alacrity Cooldown, or give it no chi cost, but not both.
Reduce awaken cooldown again, every 3 minutes would make the crippling constant lack of chi on archers so much better.
Formentioned working knockbacks.
Reduce Cooldown on stunning arrow, 15 seconds is huge for only reliable disabling skill.
Make all 3 disabling skills 100% chance, instead of 90%
Make it so you can cast whisper shot at full range
Either a quick duration tidal buff
A skill that works kinda like a user activated purify spell, except with a long cooldown. Activate it like faith, and use it to escape(make it so you can't IG with it though)

DirtySouth - Raging Tide · February 2014

tbh i'd be ok with some kinda of usefull self defensive buff. I dont know make it based on soulforce or spirit.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2014

ZTP metal typically doesn't cut it against endgame heavies, which are pretty damn tank. You still have to purge first, which gets back to how to survive (new BS stuns) until you purge.

King_Ace - Heavens Tear · February 2014

I believe a lot of valid points are being brought up and just wish to list my opinions on the same topics
Evasion- I can use my archer 79 skill raise it to 30-50k I am still getting hit my the phys
classes and with their GOF I don't last long with that weapon proc

Mobility- Asterelle you couldn't of said it better! Purify really gave casters alot of mobility and with it they are able to keep up to a archer step for step and with our anti stuns requiring sparks eventually they do catch up and if you are at a disadvantage you will loose that fire fight

Damage Dealing- I agree Archers are starting to be treated as a cleric just a support class in pvp but when it comes to damage lets face it GOF owns the game any toon will
always hit harder as long as they have GOF

Geckofreak makes a fantastic point as well archers are supposed to be range and we suffer a damage reduction when we are too close. So why didn't we get a push back like the mystics did on one of the descriptions of Feather Armageddon it said it would work on players so why wasn't it brought into the game? Also fun fact every class gets a form of a healing skill yet archers do not....

I'm with Geckofreak though all the other classes got these new "perks" but it just seems archers are staying the same since the game came out. but I do think PWI needs to take a look at the archer class and modernize our skills to catch us up to speed with the other classes.

angellicdeity · February 2014

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

I don't personally feel archers are underpowered. They have good mobility, good damage, and their survivability isn't so bad if you compare to someone with same gear.

In my server I think that the problem is just that most archers are under geared, and the classes that can kill them faster (wizards and sins) are very well equipped, so it seems like archers die 24/7.

To call some class underpowered, it would imply that they don't fill a certain expectation about the class... So, what are archers missing?

Undergearing is a result of the lack of stopping power an Archer has.

Archers used to be robe killers. With all the new gear, robe classes are able to mitigate the physical damage to such an extent that you might as well be using a level 1 bow. Now if you were to put the same effort into gearing up a Wizard, Assassin, or Psychic you would have a far stronger and more versatile character.

Why spend time or money grinding out a r9rr +12 fitted with full JOSD or Deity stones, with S-ranked cards to deal 2K damage an arrow to a robe when with the same gear you can land 30K+ crits.

The only thing archers were good at disappeared long ago.

Kithares - Harshlands · February 2014

Archers have turned into a support role completely in a PvP scale, That is unless of course you can afford r9rr with +12 on gears with either Vitality stones or Defense gems. Mainly they are to deal decent damage and purge from far aback while other classes go jihad on everyone. Although as a cleric or wizard, you can forget about living for long. Archers can deal great amounts of damage with their crits. They should update Archers to have a skill like Wolf Emblem, that increases their Crit damage, and maybe ACTUAL pushback skills against players

As for PvE, Archers fill every role needed, They can solo FC's, they can solo nearly every instance up to bh100,(This is of course talking about G16's refined and above), and they drop mobs quickly.

I have always wanted to try a G16/r9rr Archer with Full evasion gems on all slots, I think i will do it.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2014

The thing about Purify is it gives a chance for you to lose debuffs.

At endgame if you can't keep debuffs on your target it's hard to kill.. It's bad to stack 3 debuffs and then poof it's all gone. I can kill other archers and even BMs sometimes faster than I can kill robes with the same quality of gear.

Plus at endgame, while other ranged classes get more -chan, archers are still just as sluggish. This means archers have the slowest control skills and defensive skills.

Melee physical classes have fast channeling control skills by default so it's not as noticeable for them.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Kithares - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers have turned into a support role completely in a PvP scale, That is unless of course you can afford r9rr with +12 on gears with either Vitality stones or Defense gems. Mainly they are to deal decent damage and purge from far aback while other classes go jihad on everyone. Although as a cleric or wizard, you can forget about living for long. Archers can deal great amounts of damage with their crits. They should update Archers to have a skill like Wolf Emblem, that increases their Crit damage, and maybe ACTUAL pushback skills against players

As for PvE, Archers fill every role needed, They can solo FC's, they can solo nearly every instance up to bh100,(This is of course talking about G16's refined and above), and they drop mobs quickly.

I have always wanted to try a G16/r9rr Archer with Full evasion gems on all slots, I think i will do it.

Archers get 2x the phy atk of sins, which is why sins are the only class with this buff. If you want crit dmg increase, there are base buffs for that. Seriously have you played an archer in TW? They do decent damage to everything, even in low gears.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers get 2x the phy atk of sins, which is why sins are the only class with this buff. If you want crit dmg increase, there are base buffs for that. Seriously have you played an archer in TW? They do decent damage to everything, even in low gears.

I do have, and if by decent you mean 800 Dmg to endgames you're either kidding or fighting non end-game toons.

At endgame EA's dmg is pure poo, we can just pray to purge.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · February 2014

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers get 2x the phy atk of sins but no real CC lock or decent debuffs to combo and spike damage and 1 shot anything at end game, which is why sins can kill pretty much anything.

Have YOU played archer at end game? You have to spend more time kiting than dealing damage. I am yet to see any other class, regardless of their role (DD, tank , healer, support) do this at end game.

Unless it's a +12 JoSD veno that spent all that gold and coins on a toon that just runs in IG'd and purges.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Have YOU played archer at end game? You have to spend more time kiting than dealing damage. I am yet to see any other class, regardless of their role (DD, tank , healer, support) do this at end game.

Unless it's a +12 JoSD veno that spent all that gold and coins on a toon that just runs in IG'd and purges.

Mhm good to see I'm not the only EA thinking that way... gosh, you as full +10/+11 full vit ea have to kite... Imagine "normal" ea's (full +8 on excl, citrines for now)...to be even able to kite we need AD + WoG + Holy path or we'd just die while kiting xD

I'll just go full +12 NW, then wonder about JoSD and I'll be able to tank 2 hits in a row from some class

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Mhm good to see I'm not the only EA thinking that way... gosh, you as full +10/+11 full vit ea have to kite... Imagine "normal" ea's (full +8 on excl, citrines for now)...to be even able to kite we need AD + WoG + Holy path or we'd just die while kiting xD

I'll just go full +12 NW, then wonder about JoSD and I'll be able to tank 2 hits in a row from some class

Every archer regardless of gear has to kite, and use resources to do this safely. In mass pvp like TW, at endgame, we have the lowest defenses.

Casters can full pdef orny and purify proc to safety whereas we have to comsume a spark/genie/apo to do the same.

The archer playstyle is all kiting/ganking, especially when facing multiple opponents. We're not built for frontline but work better in a behind the lines support role of assisting at max range, barraging to split up groups etc, purging, flanking.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every archer regardless of gear has to kite, and use resources to do this safely. In mass pvp like TW, at endgame, we have the lowest defenses.

Casters can full pdef orny and purify proc to safety whereas we have to comsume a spark/genie/apo to do the same.

The archer playstyle is all kiting/ganking, especially when facing multiple opponents. We're not built for frontline but work better in a behind the lines support role of assisting at max range, barraging to split up groups etc, purging, flanking.

One thing is that our role is that now, but ea's were DD before, now we're just squishy support... not that I dislike it though, but still feels bad that we just can't take 2 hits in a row wereas heavy caster hitters can tank better than some HA... It's ok, don't make me tanky, but don't make me need full deity to be able to hit a bit...

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2014

The class has needed updates for the longest time. No real new control skills with the expansions while BMs, venos, barbs, and even wizards got new control skills.

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear · February 2014

I'd be very happy with some of the updates mentioned in this thread. Also a thing to consider, Aim low for its 1 spark cost, I feel could be better? Maybe up it to the new paralysis thing that bms get in one of their combo skills. I feel that'd be much better than a 90% chance to work in general then have classes like sins, bms, and wizzies able to get out of it with leaps, jumps, and distance shrink. It'd give archers a skill thats actually able to keep a foe at a distance so we can dd a little bit. If we had a functioning knockback, I don't think so many archers would mind the 1 spark cost for Aim Low if it actually did something beneficial for archers.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

I do have, and if by decent you mean 800 Dmg to endgames you're either kidding or fighting non end-game toons.

At endgame EA's dmg is pure poo, we can just pray to purge.

Kalopsia, full r9rr+12 jaded, NW upgrade, and s card et takes about 1k from my +10 dags non crit. I'm sure you could do better with metal attacks or physical. The bs archers come with is bull, if you are doing 800 damage, you are attacking a seeker or barb or bm, at that point, they are meant to resist physical dmg. What did you expect? Learn to play your class better and learn how do deal damage, not tab kill. Sins learn how to amp in pve, archers can do the same.

Socqar - Lost City · February 2014

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Kalopsia, full r9rr+12 jaded, NW upgrade, and s card et takes about 1k from my +10 dags non crit. I'm sure you could do better with metal attacks or physical. The bs archers come with is bull, if you are doing 800 damage, you are attacking a seeker or barb or bm, at that point, they are meant to resist physical dmg. What did you expect? Learn to play your class better and learn how do deal damage, not tab kill. Sins learn how to amp in pve, archers can do the same.

You should learn some manners instead of gaming though ^^

800 dmg hitting on skills a sin my friend, NOT a HA class... It's expected to deal absolute poo on a turtle barb, but not on an unbuffed sin when we were DD's... Metal attacks? LOL just that, you should really play an ea if you wanna post in our forum, and if you do... gosh, you do need some more pvp O,o

Won't discuss with a sin on ea's forum, pointless

PS: "Learn to deal dmg" <- this sentence makes your all statement invalid, when all skills we can use in pvp are stun + quickshot (Demon ea) and metal attacks, non of them having a dmg amp, we're not sins with crazy DD 10k dmg skills ^^

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2014

What the hell, naming names to people who are not even on your server?

800 might be an exaggeration. However, it's entirely possible for an archer with 40k attack to hit less than 2k on an endgame triple buffed wizard or veno. With the new passive ~90% pdef can be gained pretty easily.

All may not be lost for archers?

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