New Drake Bash

I wouldn't mind that you couldn't remove the stun, if you could resist it with a genie skill/anti stun that has *reasonable* energy cost (think: will surge has 80 energy, adrenaline surge has 80, fortify has 55... something like this).

I wouldn't mind if it couldn't be avoided, if it could be purified, like most debuffs can be.

Its when you have it unblockable and unpurifiable that we have a major issue for everybody.

To all the bms complaining about omgash 1 spark cost...

1) the only way to block this skill is to use your entire genie energy (ad or belief), or to use immunity apoth (what I consider the equivalent of 2 sparks due to white tea). If we consider genie energy of 120 to be about 1 spark, the energy cost of blocking this skill isn't so terrible... but the cooldowns give us major problems. AD has a 3 minute cooldown. Belief has a 1 minute cooldown. Your stun has only 15s cooldown. Block it once? Maybe. Block it twice? Improbable. Block it three times? Nearly impossible.

2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast. Because your target literally cannot do anything at all (guaranteed) once you've stunned, you have 7.5 seconds to build up chi---maybe not a complete spark, but certainly half a spark would be easy (though dps builds could exceed 1 spark in that time span with fists).

3) 'it can miss'. On an arcane? Really? I have like 400 evasion, you should have roughly, what, 3-4k accuracy? The chance that you miss is very, very minimal, if you've statted even a token amount of points into dext/done some meridians for accuracy. Granted--on archers missing is a more real possibility, and that may be the one saving grace for archers, who are heavily dependent on anti-stun for kiting.

4) the skill itself was already one of the bm's most dangerous---it is often a finishing move because it hits so hard. Now it hits harder than ever along with delivering an unblockable, unpurifiable stun.

5) sins can resist it---just like they can resist everything. yeah it annoys me too, don't feel special because of it. For just about everybody else though (sage seekers and demon mystics aside) they have no passive way to avoid this stun whatsoever.

Sure we'll deal with it... but that doesn't mean the skill is not broken. It ignores a game mechanic sancrosect since the game was made---anti-stun avoids stuns. It cannot be removed, which pours even more salt onto the wound.

So far I've only heard bms saying they are OK with this new skill... which, duh, you are biased as hell lol.

Just sayin.

*randomly enters thread*

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

EDIT: I guess we all are steadfast when it comes to our belief about something being 'oped'... and when it benefits 'you' you have blind folds on/defend it to death.

And this is why I'm happy I play and experience all classes equally. Hard to be biased when you're on both sides of the fence often enough to easily admit when something shouldn't be the way it is.

Kinda sad that they're trying to "fix" BS by adding in something else that's BS. Be honest. If purify wasn't a thing pretty much everyone would agree that a stun you can't protect yourself from short of invincibility that also cannot be purified and doesn't at least make you hard enough to kill that you're essentially removed from the battle is stupid. Heck, when something like this was suggested in the past everyone laughed at it for the obvious joke it was. And now it's happened anyways.

Had more to say but looking over it for typos made me realize how much I strayed from wanting to make a quick post. Point is, totally dismayed that they can't figure out how to actually balance things instead of simply making one group overpowered until enough people complain that they choose to make some other group overpowered instead. Woe be to those who are left behind either via gear or not being the right group for getting overpowered.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast.

just something for u to continue qqing about. not sure if this works the same for all bleeds cuz i didnt really ever check but the bleed(not the actual hit , the BLEED) hits full dmg even against a clerics dmg redce thing(i think its called wings of something or something along that line).

also the MAJORITY of bms are a bit of a ways off from getting this skill. maybe one or two have it per server(?). and those would be the cash heavy ppl

Alright, no direct responses from me this time, I'm going to explain why BM needed this skill and why it is, while OP, not gamebreaking omg wtf hax bullsht crazy developers casters and antistun is useless kind of OP like everyone thinks it is.

Let's split it into parts.

Part one: BM is the crowd control class!

Since BM was made, it has had the most stuns in the game, the most slows, the largest control of all classes. Complete the set with debuffs from defenses, to damage amps, to channel and interval debuffs, and top it with fast cooldowns. BM was pretty OP when it was first made, able to lock things forever and tank enough damage with marrows and bell at full buffs to be a feared force in TW. As a result, they came out with 79 and 100 skills and gave some classes an antistun, archers got got one, barbs got one, wizards got a 100 chi suck to prevent BMs from having the chi to stun in the first place, but that proved ineffective. I'm not saying these were specifically designed to nerf BMs, but it was certainly a side effect. To be fair, BM was given a silence that was ranged to counter this, but at the time it was weak.

Blademaster was the fastest class, very high attack rate at that time, fastest channel, fastest cooldown, the most speed buffs, leaping around instantly. Cue the arrival of the new fastest class, the sin. The sin did a lot of single target stunning with fewer gaps, this made BM less effective than sin due to the sins ability to stack their various locks.

BM was basically forgotten about at this point, until we got morai. By this time there are seekers than rip BMs apart, but morai helps us. We get some great crowd controls such as reel in and blade hurl. This update was great for us, we became OP again. Then afterwards we got the skill update a while back that made flame tsunami a viable skill and reduced chi cost of basically every morai skill. This made us top controllers once again (1v1 ofc, we were always top AoE controllers)

Part two: Crowd control was rendered useless

Nation wars came and every r9 was able to go r9rr, which meant every r9 caster had purify spell. Purify spell was OP as all hell to begin with, it did three things. Purify, anti stun, and super speed buff. Casters became the fastest running and impossible to stun lock class. Your only hope was to stun, then when they proc, silence and pray you can deal enough damage to kill them before they run too far, but BM, the class designated to crowd control, had low damage, and could rarely kill a caster with a combo unless they got a super lucky crit zerk.

Once casters got their gear where they wanted it, they began to become better than BMs in every because of their ability to kill any large threats fast and unable to be stopped, antistun and speed buff was too much. At this point I had been saying to keep purify spell, but remove the speed buff and antistun, that would have been a viable balance. But nope, BM was entirely useless for stunlocking targets other than other BMs, seekers, and barbs. Other BMs can antistun a lot and evade stuns easy, seekers could kill the BM before they could get close, and that left barbs, and we go back to sin being better at 1v1 locking with longer immobilization and a wider variety of stuns.

Sin became better at stunning, was always better at killing, and was a faster moving class. It had longer cooldowns, but their damage made it less important.

Part three: Primal skill update.

The devs heard our crys. We were given a counter to purify spell. We've been the lowest DD class since ever (again, str barbs can out damage us, particularly demons, and worry less about accuracy with bloodbath). It was made pretty OP since nothing shy of invulnerability could avoid it (and tidal, but that's a sin thing and seeker thing), so it was made to combine 3 skills to do it. 2 we never used, so we didn't mind. It was put on BM and barb, barb was not guaranteed, so that was balanced. BM was given a 15 second cooldown, which keeps the aspect of OP cooldowns on a BM. At a one spark cost, it's chi consumption is not crazy much, so it was also usable. It's melee, so we have to be close, which again isn't hard for BMs, I admit. It's the staying close that's hard. It also wasn't given an insane amount of damage, keeping us as the lowest DD class. It'ts total damage boost was 5% weapon damage and 700 additional damage over drake bash.

This is not a crazy amount. Factor in your own P.Def and that is around what, 700 additional damage on top of what is usually 15k HP? That's nothing. It is still purely a stun. Flame Tsunami still hits harder, hillborn also still hits harder, blade tornado is also still harder, It's damage is still comparable to smack, and it's still single target unlike the first three mentioned.

1v1 this will ensure BM victory if we have forced genie on cooldown, which won't be hard given its cooldown, so yes, it is OP in 1v1. But in a mass PvP situation, it takes one person out of the battle for 6 seconds sage 7.5 seconds demon. This is one person, which will be used on either the cleric, or the veno, or the highest threat DD, which might be an archer or a seeker. It will ignore antistun. Every single class mentioned has a range advantage, which means that if you ad -after- the skill to avoid taking damage -during- it's effect, you can then instantly run the hell away because you will likely be antistunned. If this does kill yu, which it probably will, we have to find the next target to use it on.

By the time we have our target selected, we are under heavy fire, this new skill has made us a threat to the whole enemy team. We're probably dead while we force one person out of combat and removed them from the picture. One death for our side, one death for your side.

Let's assume we live. We must again close the distance on someone that needs to die, so we aren't using the skill every 15 seconds. We want to keep it available when we get to our target. But, our antistun is on cooldown, too, as we probably used it when getting the first target. So, instead, we go into the group fray and use our group controls to make sure that they enemy is not killing our support. Which means we probably use the skill on someone in the middle of combat. And if the group was big enough, we probably HF'd, I don't know many good BMs that wouldn't, the biggest threat is gone now.

But we're in the middle of combat with no antistun...We can use apoth to get another antistun, but we probably would be better off using it for chi after HF. Instead, as we take out the biggest threat, we have a sin kill the person we would normally choose as out second target.

A single target skill cannot be gamebreaking OP is what I'm trying to say.

Is it OP? Yes

Does it render purify spell useless? Not 100%

Does it have its drawbacks? Yes

Will it break the game? No, it will make you revise your playstyle at best. You will target BMs more and kill us faster, we're bigger threats now.

That's how I see it.

Hafnium - Lost City wrote: »

After having it for a few days now.. it is absolutely OP lol.

I'm not sure why everyone mentions BMs have the lowest damage output as a counter argument. BMs are a support class, who cares about damage. Not to mention bms are also the tankiest class in the game.

With good teamwork a 7.5s paralyze will instantly force genie on pretty much any target you choose. Then you can just go back again 15s later, given you have the chi.

I'd say the downside is venos will spam chi burn more often, but who am I kidding - that already happened 24/7

It's not a counter argument, it's that people are trying to say it hits intensely hard, which is untrue because, as you said, BM is a support class.

@TheDan

Its not that I disagree with most of what you said, (as matter of fact I haven't ever asked for more damage, just more.. defensive capabilities (never asked to become so invincible that we are the ones soloing 20 ppl, tanking the damage and killing them with a ridiculous amount of ease... that kind of play is just not fun if on the wrong end of it) and you hint at the very reason why I feel the way I do about bm's.)

Still... on the roar of the pride bit, I do agree it is a 'crowd' control skill, but imho it is quite limited in just how many people it does stun, its kind of rare for people to consistently be bunched up into a group for bms to get real good use out of the stun. Though that is more for nw, for as we all know tw... it seems a lot easier that more people are going to be close enough to be effected by ROTP, as people tend to bunch up around the cata trying to make it harder for others to target the cata puller. (This isn't even mentioning that it is a normal stun that has so many weaknesses/way to break free from it, that it isn't even funny.

As I am sure you/others are well aware our 'crowd' control skills are ridiculously limited/have the big drawback of actually needing people to be 'stupid' enough to stand near each other to be effected by them, it really is quite easy to be 'missed' by the effect of a lot of aoe skills (regardless of who is using them) due to the limited 'aoe' range of the skill.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You've got to be kidding.

Yay for focusing on one thing. TT (I am well aware that they have to be careful with 'boosting' ANY class defensive, or offensive) still let me color code something for you.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@TheDan

Its not that I disagree with most of what you said, (as matter of fact I haven't ever asked for more damage, just more.. defensive capabilities (never asked to become so invincible that we are the ones soloing 20 ppl, tanking the damage and killing them with a ridiculous amount of ease... that kind of play is just not fun if on the wrong end of it) and you hint at the very reason why I feel the way I do about bm's.)

Still... on the roar of the pride bit, I do agree it is a 'crowd' control skill, but imho it is quite limited in just how many people it does stun, its kind of rare for people to consitenly be bunched up into a group for bms to get real good use out of the stun. Though that is more for nw, for as we all know tw... it seems a lot easier that more people are going to be close enough to be effected by ROTP, as people tend to bunch up around the cata trying to make it harder for others to target the cata puller. (This isn't even mentioning that it is a normal stun that has so many weaknesses/way to break free from it, that it isn't even funny.

As I am sure you/others are well aware out 'crowd' control skills are ridiculously limited/have the big drawback of actually needing people to be 'stupid' enough to stand near each other to be effected by them, it really is quite easy to be 'missed' by the effect of a lot of aoe skills (regardless of who is using them) due to the limited 'aoe' range of the skill.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

End game BMs already have amazing survivability.. it'd be like me asking for more damage, (but hey, I'm not asking to one shot you 20 times over with gush, cuz that'd be too op and not fun).

I have never denied that, what I keep getting hung up on is the fact that when a bm isn't in end game gear, they have the most to contend with, they too me do more dying than attacking/supporting.

I get it you don't agree with that stance, and you are hung up with end game stuff, which (both) is/(are) fine and I do understand that.

--

As for the second bit, I understand that as well... except to be comepletely honest yours sounds lot more... stupid than mine, but to be fair this could easily be bias-ism coming out on my part. (After all I am not perfect) I know not everything I say is completely 100% accurate, but when it comes to under-geared bms I know much of what I say is fairly accurate, even if you/others do not agree with me.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I wasn't seriously asking for more damage, I was just showing you how dumb your argument sounds coming from an outside perspective.

Anyway it makes absolutely no sense to compare balance between people of different gear levels. Imagine you came across some level 30 wiz that wants to get in on the action of some world pvp (among 10x chars).. and obviously it has absolutely no chance. If it were to then say how unbalanced it is because it is a DD class but can't even scratch anyone.. you would laugh in its face because a level 30 isn't supposed to do significant damage to a 10x toon. If a 3x wiz did good damage to a 10x bm, what do you think would happen when the wiz hits 10x and gets equivalent gear? If you don't like the concept of developing a character to make it stronger, then maybe you should consider another game genre to play.

If you think that is my issue with my bm, then you have me pegged all wrong. (Honestly I so prefer games like this over FPS games, as the potential for 'one shotting' is significantly less... it isn't fun getting one shotted over and over and over, regardless of gear differences)

Still that aside. As I said my problem isn't the 'developing' of a character, because as you know regardless of what class you choose there will be room for improvement/you will need to develop the characters gear, or even the play style (depending on whether you swipe a CC or not.)

My problem with my bm, is that it's weaknesses really seems to outshine any of its so called 'perks'... it isn't so much that I don't know that it doesn't get stronger in end game gear, its more the fact that those so called 'strengths' are ridiculously hard to see while undergeared/you are constantly going up against bms with insanely lackluster damage/ability to take damage. Granted that smart archer/seekers who know the buff to look for... can potentially make the bm pay for using marrows. (Not necessarily kill, but definitely make the bm hurt quite a bit, hell as you know they can even kill if the gear refines are horrendous compared to the damage of a casters/archers/seekers weapon... hell even sins/barbs and even other bms can make a bm pay for using marrows at times... though yes that comes back to the gear refines of the bm.)

As for your lvl 30 vs 10x bms analogy... that is way too extreme... of course the lvl 30 wiz shouldn't be killing anyone with damage alone when there is that much of a gap in gears AND LEVEL... (I get why you brought it up in this convo, but I don't (edit) think that it can really be applied here... its way too extreme... besides as that old saying goes... there is indeed an exception to every rule (belief in this... err... my case) I have repeatedly said I know my gear isn't the best, and it still isn't... it is far from it, but that so doesn't change the fact that I believe I have quite the idea of what a bm has to go through to even begin to be 'relevant' while in mass pvp.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wouldn't mind that you couldn't remove the stun, if you could resist it with a genie skill/anti stun that has *reasonable* energy cost (think: will surge has 80 energy, adrenaline surge has 80, fortify has 55... something like this).

I wouldn't mind if it couldn't be avoided, if it could be purified, like most debuffs can be.

Its when you have it unblockable and unpurifiable that we have a major issue for everybody.

To all the bms complaining about omgash 1 spark cost...

1) the only way to block this skill is to use your entire genie energy (ad or belief), or to use immunity apoth (what I consider the equivalent of 2 sparks due to white tea). If we consider genie energy of 120 to be about 1 spark, the energy cost of blocking this skill isn't so terrible... but the cooldowns give us major problems. AD has a 3 minute cooldown. Belief has a 1 minute cooldown. Your stun has only 15s cooldown. Block it once? Maybe. Block it twice? Improbable. Block it three times? Nearly impossible.

2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast. Because your target literally cannot do anything at all (guaranteed) once you've stunned, you have 7.5 seconds to build up chi---maybe not a complete spark, but certainly half a spark would be easy (though dps builds could exceed 1 spark in that time span with fists).

3) 'it can miss'. On an arcane? Really? I have like 400 evasion, you should have roughly, what, 3-4k accuracy? The chance that you miss is very, very minimal, if you've statted even a token amount of points into dext/done some meridians for accuracy. Granted--on archers missing is a more real possibility, and that may be the one saving grace for archers, who are heavily dependent on anti-stun for kiting.

4) the skill itself was already one of the bm's most dangerous---it is often a finishing move because it hits so hard. Now it hits harder than ever along with delivering an unblockable, unpurifiable stun.

5) sins can resist it---just like they can resist everything. yeah it annoys me too, don't feel special because of it. For just about everybody else though (sage seekers and demon mystics aside) they have no passive way to avoid this stun whatsoever.

Sure we'll deal with it... but that doesn't mean the skill is not broken. It ignores a game mechanic sancrosect since the game was made---anti-stun avoids stuns. It cannot be removed, which pours even more salt onto the wound.

So far I've only heard bms saying they are OK with this new skill... which, duh, you are biased as hell lol.

Just sayin.

I dun really see the skill as a big thing cause it has it's downside as well.. another thing i want to ad i think this skill will actually force a player to genie, rather than be there like well am proc on the 2nd hit LMAO!!

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I really dunno what the point of your post was, but BMs do not need more "defensive capabilities" just to compensate for your lack of gear.

Figured as much... we are yet again at an impasse, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, and move on. b:avoid

Edit: No I am not saying... what you implied... I gave my opinion on why I felt bms were the most lackluster in mass pvp (WHILE undergeared) you don't have to agree with that... there so isn't anything saying you have too.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I really dunno what the point of your post was, but BMs do not need more "defensive capabilities" just to compensate for your lack of gear.

ijs not worth talking to a nv gear bm with low refines who cries cause he gets 1shot all over and thinks that every other class in his kind of gears wouldn't.

i think the only classes that bm could be playing might be seeker cause it has insane def lvls and range or barb cause they got god mode for few sec.
@slivaf just try to play an archer and hf getting 1shot by sins who dont even zerk crit.

and LOL at the thing that rotp would be kinda useless cause its range is too low?! in mass pvp u always have a few targets gathering in rotp range when they hit on one target and if u are able to stun 3 people for 6 sec that definitly makes up alot!

And as for being lackluster Eoria has a point, though sins and bms at least could domain and stun, so they aint as lackluster as other classes even when outgeared and outleveled

Start the caster qq.. cause yeah its so unfair bm's get anything freaking casters allready 1 shot endgame bm's .. then thay puri proc so u cant do anything... they allready nerfed bt not once but 5 times... its a god damn joke if u think this is in some way op... get a damn grip.... casters have azillion ways to still get around this... so does every other class without purify... if u cant see how .. maybe u need to learn to adapt like every1 else had to vs purify proc.. theres nothing op about this skill... ffs.. bunch of whining kids.. qq cause i spent 5000$ and now i cant just faceroll everything...

LOL on some of these people flaming Silvaf, this is such an egoist community, quite sad...

And yeah everything undergeared at pvp is weak AF, and by undergeared we all know it's everything below R9RR +12 full of jades, nw accesories, and soooon S+ cards.
Just wonder b:laugh

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you are running around in NW expecting to kill anything with your gear... I mean considering how long you have been playing this game, you could have very easily famed full G16 gears and refined them to +7/8 with event gold and farmed incomparables... at the very least.. b:shocked

Oh, Im sure it's what many of us did, but at least when I played NW, G16 nv was complete **** against those r9rr sets. If normal r9 was the best gear still, then wow we would have way more balance then.

Hafnium - Lost City wrote: »

Sadly, no.
The animation is identical to the old drake bash, no matter what weapon you use.

Lazy devs are lazy I see.


And lol@ all caster QQing that bms finally can get the upper hand on PVP.

"QQ QQ now I can't faceroll bms anymore and actually have to use my brains QQ QQ QQ"