New Drake Bash

2

Comments

  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I wouldn't mind that you couldn't remove the stun, if you could resist it with a genie skill/anti stun that has *reasonable* energy cost (think: will surge has 80 energy, adrenaline surge has 80, fortify has 55... something like this).

    I wouldn't mind if it couldn't be avoided, if it could be purified, like most debuffs can be.

    Its when you have it unblockable and unpurifiable that we have a major issue for everybody.

    To all the bms complaining about omgash 1 spark cost...

    1) the only way to block this skill is to use your entire genie energy (ad or belief), or to use immunity apoth (what I consider the equivalent of 2 sparks due to white tea). If we consider genie energy of 120 to be about 1 spark, the energy cost of blocking this skill isn't so terrible... but the cooldowns give us major problems. AD has a 3 minute cooldown. Belief has a 1 minute cooldown. Your stun has only 15s cooldown. Block it once? Maybe. Block it twice? Improbable. Block it three times? Nearly impossible.

    2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast. Because your target literally cannot do anything at all (guaranteed) once you've stunned, you have 7.5 seconds to build up chi---maybe not a complete spark, but certainly half a spark would be easy (though dps builds could exceed 1 spark in that time span with fists).

    3) 'it can miss'. On an arcane? Really? I have like 400 evasion, you should have roughly, what, 3-4k accuracy? The chance that you miss is very, very minimal, if you've statted even a token amount of points into dext/done some meridians for accuracy. Granted--on archers missing is a more real possibility, and that may be the one saving grace for archers, who are heavily dependent on anti-stun for kiting.

    4) the skill itself was already one of the bm's most dangerous---it is often a finishing move because it hits so hard. Now it hits harder than ever along with delivering an unblockable, unpurifiable stun.

    5) sins can resist it---just like they can resist everything. yeah it annoys me too, don't feel special because of it. For just about everybody else though (sage seekers and demon mystics aside) they have no passive way to avoid this stun whatsoever.

    Sure we'll deal with it... but that doesn't mean the skill is not broken. It ignores a game mechanic sancrosect since the game was made---anti-stun avoids stuns. It cannot be removed, which pours even more salt onto the wound.

    So far I've only heard bms saying they are OK with this new skill... which, duh, you are biased as hell lol.

    Just sayin.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    *snip*

    Sure we'll deal with it... but that doesn't mean the skill is not broken. It ignores a game mechanic sancrosect since the game was made---anti-stun avoids stuns. It cannot be removed, which pours even more salt onto the wound.

    So far I've only heard bms saying they are OK with this new skill... which, duh, you are biased as hell lol.

    Just sayin.

    I do agree with the first part that I didn't 'crop' out, still it does have it's weaknesses. (as everything does in this game) It to me seems far more fearsome in 1 on 1 fights which does indeed happen from time to time even in nw, still its not like the bm/barb can't be locked down (either by stun, or immobilization/sleep.. and sure immobilization will still allow both to still attack/use this skill) by someone else, allowing whoever they have locked down ample time to get away. (EDIT: Though yes this will require rather insanely epic timing especially when coupled with a bms other "crowd" control skills)

    Though aye there will be times where even that would be too difficult for a lot of people. (Something that I do realize is that not everyone is in haxed gear/is going to be able to withstand the hits of a ENDGAME barb/bm let alone if they have help, still it has it's limits.)

    The spark cost, while it is much easier these days/with the new primal skills to keep up chi to use this skill, they still have to live/be unstunned/and even close enough to even use it, not to mention its not like they're going to be able to spam it/use it on multiple people at will. Hell other bms could be a real good counter to a barb/bm using this skill on you, blade hurl and boom get away from the barb/bm and do your normal kite stuff/keep your distance as you normally do. Especially as a caster/archer. Sure you/others wont be able to always outlive the damage being dealt to you/them until help arrives. (edit) Let alone always outrun them, specifically barbs and their run speed/shields.

    --

    Sounds a lot like what happened with the purify proc except it was mostly casters saying its ok, also you nor I/anyone else can speak for the masses, I could just as easily say 'oh, no one is here complaining so they all must be fine with it' which would be a bad statement to make, and for all I know so wrong that it isn't even funny... the point is that we shouldn't speak for others, even subtly.

    ---

    Casters gave reasons/ways to counter the purify proc, and now we melees are doing the same for the casters, neither has listened to either side when it comes to that. (ok that isn't completely fair, as both have to an extent, but both have come up with rebuttals to the so called 'weakness' of each quite arguably overpowered skill/weapon proc.)

    --

    EDIT: I guess we all are steadfast when it comes to our belief about something being 'oped'... and when it benefits 'you' you have blind folds on/defend it to death.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    *randomly enters thread*
    EDIT: I guess we all are steadfast when it comes to our belief about something being 'oped'... and when it benefits 'you' you have blind folds on/defend it to death.

    And this is why I'm happy I play and experience all classes equally. Hard to be biased when you're on both sides of the fence often enough to easily admit when something shouldn't be the way it is.

    Kinda sad that they're trying to "fix" BS by adding in something else that's BS. Be honest. If purify wasn't a thing pretty much everyone would agree that a stun you can't protect yourself from short of invincibility that also cannot be purified and doesn't at least make you hard enough to kill that you're essentially removed from the battle is stupid. Heck, when something like this was suggested in the past everyone laughed at it for the obvious joke it was. And now it's happened anyways.

    Had more to say but looking over it for typos made me realize how much I strayed from wanting to make a quick post. Point is, totally dismayed that they can't figure out how to actually balance things instead of simply making one group overpowered until enough people complain that they choose to make some other group overpowered instead. Woe be to those who are left behind either via gear or not being the right group for getting overpowered.
    (Insert fancy image here)
    image
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    OPKossy wrote: »
    *randomly enters thread*


    And this is why I'm happy I play and experience all classes equally. Hard to be biased when you're on both sides of the fence often enough to easily admit when something shouldn't be the way it is.

    In my defense I have played every class, and admittedly I am a little biased when it comes to bm... but still I am not a complete dolt, and I can/have formed my opinion about which class is the weakest for MASS pvp. (EDIT: Correction :$ while undergeared they're the 'weakest' imho) (Which I am sure everyone who has played all classes has their own opinion on this, and they too are probably a bit biased/not looking at the whole picture.) Hell not to mention even with how passionate I am about bms/how stubborn I have been at times about it... I still haven't been completely blind/ignoring ALL of the points brought up by others.

    --

    That aside everything else I snipped I either agreed with/have nothing to 'add'/"defend."
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Viktorian - Archosaur
    Viktorian - Archosaur Posts: 746 Arc User
    edited January 2014


    2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast.
    just something for u to continue qqing about. not sure if this works the same for all bleeds cuz i didnt really ever check but the bleed(not the actual hit , the BLEED) hits full dmg even against a clerics dmg redce thing(i think its called wings of something or something along that line).

    also the MAJORITY of bms are a bit of a ways off from getting this skill. maybe one or two have it per server(?). and those would be the cash heavy ppl
    Servers: Archosaur(PvE US West) and Harshlands (PvP US East)
    Chars: Viktorian(100 2Rb Celestial Demon BM) PurpleHealz (100 Celestial Sage Cleric) DagsAway (95 Assassin)
    [SIGPIC][/Sigpic]
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    just something for u to continue qqing about. not sure if this works the same for all bleeds cuz i didnt really ever check but the bleed(not the actual hit , the BLEED) hits full dmg even against a clerics dmg redce thing(i think its called wings of something or something along that line).

    also the MAJORITY of bms are a bit of a ways off from getting this skill. maybe one or two have it per server(?). and those would be the cash heavy ppl

    All dots work that way (ignore dmg reduction), and any non-****** can get the skill.. not really sure why you think "cash heavy people" have any advantage in getting these skills first lol
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Alright, no direct responses from me this time, I'm going to explain why BM needed this skill and why it is, while OP, not gamebreaking omg wtf hax bullsht crazy developers casters and antistun is useless kind of OP like everyone thinks it is.

    Let's split it into parts.

    Part one: BM is the crowd control class!

    Since BM was made, it has had the most stuns in the game, the most slows, the largest control of all classes. Complete the set with debuffs from defenses, to damage amps, to channel and interval debuffs, and top it with fast cooldowns. BM was pretty OP when it was first made, able to lock things forever and tank enough damage with marrows and bell at full buffs to be a feared force in TW. As a result, they came out with 79 and 100 skills and gave some classes an antistun, archers got got one, barbs got one, wizards got a 100 chi suck to prevent BMs from having the chi to stun in the first place, but that proved ineffective. I'm not saying these were specifically designed to nerf BMs, but it was certainly a side effect. To be fair, BM was given a silence that was ranged to counter this, but at the time it was weak.

    Blademaster was the fastest class, very high attack rate at that time, fastest channel, fastest cooldown, the most speed buffs, leaping around instantly. Cue the arrival of the new fastest class, the sin. The sin did a lot of single target stunning with fewer gaps, this made BM less effective than sin due to the sins ability to stack their various locks.

    BM was basically forgotten about at this point, until we got morai. By this time there are seekers than rip BMs apart, but morai helps us. We get some great crowd controls such as reel in and blade hurl. This update was great for us, we became OP again. Then afterwards we got the skill update a while back that made flame tsunami a viable skill and reduced chi cost of basically every morai skill. This made us top controllers once again (1v1 ofc, we were always top AoE controllers)

    Part two: Crowd control was rendered useless

    Nation wars came and every r9 was able to go r9rr, which meant every r9 caster had purify spell. Purify spell was OP as all hell to begin with, it did three things. Purify, anti stun, and super speed buff. Casters became the fastest running and impossible to stun lock class. Your only hope was to stun, then when they proc, silence and pray you can deal enough damage to kill them before they run too far, but BM, the class designated to crowd control, had low damage, and could rarely kill a caster with a combo unless they got a super lucky crit zerk.

    Once casters got their gear where they wanted it, they began to become better than BMs in every because of their ability to kill any large threats fast and unable to be stopped, antistun and speed buff was too much. At this point I had been saying to keep purify spell, but remove the speed buff and antistun, that would have been a viable balance. But nope, BM was entirely useless for stunlocking targets other than other BMs, seekers, and barbs. Other BMs can antistun a lot and evade stuns easy, seekers could kill the BM before they could get close, and that left barbs, and we go back to sin being better at 1v1 locking with longer immobilization and a wider variety of stuns.

    Sin became better at stunning, was always better at killing, and was a faster moving class. It had longer cooldowns, but their damage made it less important.

    Part three: Primal skill update.

    The devs heard our crys. We were given a counter to purify spell. We've been the lowest DD class since ever (again, str barbs can out damage us, particularly demons, and worry less about accuracy with bloodbath). It was made pretty OP since nothing shy of invulnerability could avoid it (and tidal, but that's a sin thing and seeker thing), so it was made to combine 3 skills to do it. 2 we never used, so we didn't mind. It was put on BM and barb, barb was not guaranteed, so that was balanced. BM was given a 15 second cooldown, which keeps the aspect of OP cooldowns on a BM. At a one spark cost, it's chi consumption is not crazy much, so it was also usable. It's melee, so we have to be close, which again isn't hard for BMs, I admit. It's the staying close that's hard. It also wasn't given an insane amount of damage, keeping us as the lowest DD class. It'ts total damage boost was 5% weapon damage and 700 additional damage over drake bash.

    This is not a crazy amount. Factor in your own P.Def and that is around what, 700 additional damage on top of what is usually 15k HP? That's nothing. It is still purely a stun. Flame Tsunami still hits harder, hillborn also still hits harder, blade tornado is also still harder, It's damage is still comparable to smack, and it's still single target unlike the first three mentioned.

    1v1 this will ensure BM victory if we have forced genie on cooldown, which won't be hard given its cooldown, so yes, it is OP in 1v1. But in a mass PvP situation, it takes one person out of the battle for 6 seconds sage 7.5 seconds demon. This is one person, which will be used on either the cleric, or the veno, or the highest threat DD, which might be an archer or a seeker. It will ignore antistun. Every single class mentioned has a range advantage, which means that if you ad -after- the skill to avoid taking damage -during- it's effect, you can then instantly run the hell away because you will likely be antistunned. If this does kill yu, which it probably will, we have to find the next target to use it on.

    By the time we have our target selected, we are under heavy fire, this new skill has made us a threat to the whole enemy team. We're probably dead while we force one person out of combat and removed them from the picture. One death for our side, one death for your side.

    Let's assume we live. We must again close the distance on someone that needs to die, so we aren't using the skill every 15 seconds. We want to keep it available when we get to our target. But, our antistun is on cooldown, too, as we probably used it when getting the first target. So, instead, we go into the group fray and use our group controls to make sure that they enemy is not killing our support. Which means we probably use the skill on someone in the middle of combat. And if the group was big enough, we probably HF'd, I don't know many good BMs that wouldn't, the biggest threat is gone now.

    But we're in the middle of combat with no antistun...We can use apoth to get another antistun, but we probably would be better off using it for chi after HF. Instead, as we take out the biggest threat, we have a sin kill the person we would normally choose as out second target.

    A single target skill cannot be gamebreaking OP is what I'm trying to say.

    Is it OP? Yes

    Does it render purify spell useless? Not 100%

    Does it have its drawbacks? Yes

    Will it break the game? No, it will make you revise your playstyle at best. You will target BMs more and kill us faster, we're bigger threats now.

    That's how I see it.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Hafnium - Lost City
    Hafnium - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    After having it for a few days now.. it is absolutely OP lol.

    I'm not sure why everyone mentions BMs have the lowest damage output as a counter argument. BMs are a support class, who cares about damage. Not to mention bms are also the tankiest class in the game.

    With good teamwork a 7.5s paralyze will instantly force genie on pretty much any target you choose. Then you can just go back again 15s later, given you have the chi.

    I'd say the downside is venos will spam chi burn more often, but who am I kidding - that already happened 24/7 :(
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    After having it for a few days now.. it is absolutely OP lol.

    I'm not sure why everyone mentions BMs have the lowest damage output as a counter argument. BMs are a support class, who cares about damage. Not to mention bms are also the tankiest class in the game.

    With good teamwork a 7.5s paralyze will instantly force genie on pretty much any target you choose. Then you can just go back again 15s later, given you have the chi.

    I'd say the downside is venos will spam chi burn more often, but who am I kidding - that already happened 24/7 :(

    It's not a counter argument, it's that people are trying to say it hits intensely hard, which is untrue because, as you said, BM is a support class.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I don't have the skill yet, but I don't think it will affect group PvP that much just due to the fact that it's a single target skill and when being a melee fighting groups of people it's basically required to initiate with immune stun which costs 1 spark or fortify IG and I'd much rather AoE stun and HF and have a chance for my squad to kill multiple people rather than focusing on 1 person.

    The skill is broken, especially in 1v1 and I don't think BMs even needed it to begin with.. People always cry that BMs are under-powered but they've always been pretty balanced for me. I still would rather disable multiple people than just focusing down on 1 person in a group fight. Anyone with half a brain can just AD and kite back into the rest of their squads and the spark is wasted IMO... The only exception where it might be useful in group PvP is like in NW when you lock flag carriers or cat barbs in TW, but even then the enemy cleric should be stack healing them.

    But yeah, I don't think it's going to do much just cause BMs have to waste IG or immune stun to even initiate group fights to begin with, so by the time IG is up, the BM needs to kite back or they'll get focus fired and die. Which in reality only gives the BM like 1 cycle of drake bash before their IG runs out and they need to fall back, and by the time they can initiate again the enemy's apoth and genie are off cd too. BMs are generally one of the first targets to die in group fights unless they kite, so with the spark used it still has an opportunity cost of a possible 9 second HF every 30 seconds instead which I think will still be more effective in group fights that are set up well. Another thing is that when a BM uses the drake bash instead of the Roar, they leave themselves open to counters as well just cause it's not a crowd control stun.

    And just a few more final words... BMs have one of the worst sustainability (not survivability) in group PvP next to seekers, meaning without chi or apoth BMs cannot even initiate. They need immune stun or IG to even make it out of an initiation alive. Arcanes can easily kite with purify, archers can kite from range, and leap. Barbs have invoke. Sins have stealth and Tidal Protection. So for a BM to overextend into groups of people using a single target skill is pretty much suicide in itself. Drake Bash will barely affect game-play IMO. I'll start recording some more PvP videos soon and show before / after videos when I get the skill to demonstrate it's impact, which I still believe will be close to nothing in group PvP. Maybe the only counter-argument would be if the BM had a personal cleric stacking IH and psychic buffs on them they could initiate and stay in combat the whole way through.
    BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761

    YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    @TheDan

    Its not that I disagree with most of what you said, (as matter of fact I haven't ever asked for more damage, just more.. defensive capabilities (never asked to become so invincible that we are the ones soloing 20 ppl, tanking the damage and killing them with a ridiculous amount of ease... that kind of play is just not fun if on the wrong end of it) and you hint at the very reason why I feel the way I do about bm's.)

    Still... on the roar of the pride bit, I do agree it is a 'crowd' control skill, but imho it is quite limited in just how many people it does stun, its kind of rare for people to consistently be bunched up into a group for bms to get real good use out of the stun. Though that is more for nw, for as we all know tw... it seems a lot easier that more people are going to be close enough to be effected by ROTP, as people tend to bunch up around the cata trying to make it harder for others to target the cata puller. (This isn't even mentioning that it is a normal stun that has so many weaknesses/way to break free from it, that it isn't even funny.

    As I am sure you/others are well aware our 'crowd' control skills are ridiculously limited/have the big drawback of actually needing people to be 'stupid' enough to stand near each other to be effected by them, it really is quite easy to be 'missed' by the effect of a lot of aoe skills (regardless of who is using them) due to the limited 'aoe' range of the skill.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    @TheDan

    Its not that I disagree with most of what you said, (as matter of fact I haven't ever asked for more damage, just more.. defensive capabilities (never asked to become so invincible that we are the ones soloing 20 ppl, tanking the damage and killing them with a ridiculous amount of ease... that kind of play is just not fun if on the wrong end of it) and you hint at the very reason why I feel the way I do about bm's.)

    Still... on the roar of the pride bit, I do agree it is a 'crowd' control skill, but imho it is quite limited in just how many people it does stun, its kind of rare for people to consitenly be bunched up into a group for bms to get real good use out of the stun. Though that is more for nw, for as we all know tw... it seems a lot easier that more people are going to be close enough to be effected by ROTP, as people tend to bunch up around the cata trying to make it harder for others to target the cata puller. (This isn't even mentioning that it is a normal stun that has so many weaknesses/way to break free from it, that it isn't even funny.

    As I am sure you/others are well aware out 'crowd' control skills are ridiculously limited/have the big drawback of actually needing people to be 'stupid' enough to stand near each other to be effected by them, it really is quite easy to be 'missed' by the effect of a lot of aoe skills (regardless of who is using them) due to the limited 'aoe' range of the skill.

    You've got to be kidding.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    You've got to be kidding.

    Yay for focusing on one thing. TT (I am well aware that they have to be careful with 'boosting' ANY class defensive, or offensive) still let me color code something for you.
    @TheDan

    Its not that I disagree with most of what you said, (as matter of fact I haven't ever asked for more damage, just more.. defensive capabilities (never asked to become so invincible that we are the ones soloing 20 ppl, tanking the damage and killing them with a ridiculous amount of ease... that kind of play is just not fun if on the wrong end of it) and you hint at the very reason why I feel the way I do about bm's.)

    Still... on the roar of the pride bit, I do agree it is a 'crowd' control skill, but imho it is quite limited in just how many people it does stun, its kind of rare for people to consitenly be bunched up into a group for bms to get real good use out of the stun. Though that is more for nw, for as we all know tw... it seems a lot easier that more people are going to be close enough to be effected by ROTP, as people tend to bunch up around the cata trying to make it harder for others to target the cata puller. (This isn't even mentioning that it is a normal stun that has so many weaknesses/way to break free from it, that it isn't even funny.

    As I am sure you/others are well aware out 'crowd' control skills are ridiculously limited/have the big drawback of actually needing people to be 'stupid' enough to stand near each other to be effected by them, it really is quite easy to be 'missed' by the effect of a lot of aoe skills (regardless of who is using them) due to the limited 'aoe' range of the skill.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Yay for focusing on one thing. TT (I am well aware that they have to be careful with 'boosting' ANY class defensive, or offensive) still let me color code something for you.

    End game BMs already have amazing survivability.. it'd be like me asking for more damage, (but hey, I'm not asking to one shot you 20 times over with gush, cuz that'd be too op and not fun).
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    End game BMs already have amazing survivability.. it'd be like me asking for more damage, (but hey, I'm not asking to one shot you 20 times over with gush, cuz that'd be too op and not fun).

    I have never denied that, what I keep getting hung up on is the fact that when a bm isn't in end game gear, they have the most to contend with, they too me do more dying than attacking/supporting.

    I get it you don't agree with that stance, and you are hung up with end game stuff, which (both) is/(are) fine and I do understand that.

    --

    As for the second bit, I understand that as well... except to be comepletely honest yours sounds lot more... stupid than mine, but to be fair this could easily be bias-ism coming out on my part. (After all I am not perfect) I know not everything I say is completely 100% accurate, but when it comes to under-geared bms I know much of what I say is fairly accurate, even if you/others do not agree with me.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I have never denied that, what I keep getting hung up on is the fact that when a bm isn't in end game gear, they have the most to contend with, they too me do more dying than attacking/supporting.

    I get it you don't agree with that stance, and you are hung up with end game stuff, which (both) is/(are) fine and I do understand that.

    --

    As for the second bit, I understand that as well... except to be comepletely honest yours sounds lot more... stupid than mine, but to be fair this could easily be bias-ism coming out on my part. (After all I am not perfect) I know not everything I say is completely 100% accurate, but when it comes to under-geared bms I know much of what I say is fairly accurate, even if you/others do not agree with me.

    I wasn't seriously asking for more damage, I was just showing you how dumb your argument sounds coming from someone else.

    Anyway it makes absolutely no sense to compare balance between people of different gear levels. Imagine you came across some level 30 wiz that wants to get in on the action of some world pvp (among 10x chars).. and obviously it has absolutely no chance. If it were to then say how unbalanced it is because it is a DD class but can't even scratch anyone.. you would laugh in its face because a level 30 isn't supposed to do significant damage to a 10x toon. If a 3x wiz did good damage to a 10x bm, what do you think would happen when the wiz hits 10x and gets equivalent gear? If you don't like the concept of developing a character to make it stronger, then maybe you should consider another game genre to play.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I wasn't seriously asking for more damage, I was just showing you how dumb your argument sounds coming from an outside perspective.

    Anyway it makes absolutely no sense to compare balance between people of different gear levels. Imagine you came across some level 30 wiz that wants to get in on the action of some world pvp (among 10x chars).. and obviously it has absolutely no chance. If it were to then say how unbalanced it is because it is a DD class but can't even scratch anyone.. you would laugh in its face because a level 30 isn't supposed to do significant damage to a 10x toon. If a 3x wiz did good damage to a 10x bm, what do you think would happen when the wiz hits 10x and gets equivalent gear? If you don't like the concept of developing a character to make it stronger, then maybe you should consider another game genre to play.


    If you think that is my issue with my bm, then you have me pegged all wrong. (Honestly I so prefer games like this over FPS games, as the potential for 'one shotting' is significantly less... it isn't fun getting one shotted over and over and over, regardless of gear differences)

    Still that aside. As I said my problem isn't the 'developing' of a character, because as you know regardless of what class you choose there will be room for improvement/you will need to develop the characters gear, or even the play style (depending on whether you swipe a CC or not.)

    My problem with my bm, is that it's weaknesses really seems to outshine any of its so called 'perks'... it isn't so much that I don't know that it doesn't get stronger in end game gear, its more the fact that those so called 'strengths' are ridiculously hard to see while undergeared/you are constantly going up against bms with insanely lackluster damage/ability to take damage. Granted that smart archer/seekers who know the buff to look for... can potentially make the bm pay for using marrows. (Not necessarily kill, but definitely make the bm hurt quite a bit, hell as you know they can even kill if the gear refines are horrendous compared to the damage of a casters/archers/seekers weapon... hell even sins/barbs and even other bms can make a bm pay for using marrows at times... though yes that comes back to the gear refines of the bm.)

    As for your lvl 30 vs 10x bms analogy... that is way too extreme... of course the lvl 30 wiz shouldn't be killing anyone with damage alone when there is that much of a gap in gears AND LEVEL... (I get why you brought it up in this convo, but I don't (edit) think that it can really be applied here... its way too extreme... besides as that old saying goes... there is indeed an exception to every rule (belief in this... err... my case) I have repeatedly said I know my gear isn't the best, and it still isn't... it is far from it, but that so doesn't change the fact that I believe I have quite the idea of what a bm has to go through to even begin to be 'relevant' while in mass pvp.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I really dunno what the point of your post was, but BMs do not need more "defensive capabilities" just to compensate for your lack of gear.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Slewdem - Dreamweaver
    Slewdem - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I wouldn't mind that you couldn't remove the stun, if you could resist it with a genie skill/anti stun that has *reasonable* energy cost (think: will surge has 80 energy, adrenaline surge has 80, fortify has 55... something like this).

    I wouldn't mind if it couldn't be avoided, if it could be purified, like most debuffs can be.

    Its when you have it unblockable and unpurifiable that we have a major issue for everybody.

    To all the bms complaining about omgash 1 spark cost...

    1) the only way to block this skill is to use your entire genie energy (ad or belief), or to use immunity apoth (what I consider the equivalent of 2 sparks due to white tea). If we consider genie energy of 120 to be about 1 spark, the energy cost of blocking this skill isn't so terrible... but the cooldowns give us major problems. AD has a 3 minute cooldown. Belief has a 1 minute cooldown. Your stun has only 15s cooldown. Block it once? Maybe. Block it twice? Improbable. Block it three times? Nearly impossible.

    2) new primal world bm skills give a ton of chi... the 10 blood one is a spammable, hard hitting bleed attack that gives 15 chi each time and has low channel cast. Spamming that my alt bm gets chi really fast. Because your target literally cannot do anything at all (guaranteed) once you've stunned, you have 7.5 seconds to build up chi---maybe not a complete spark, but certainly half a spark would be easy (though dps builds could exceed 1 spark in that time span with fists).

    3) 'it can miss'. On an arcane? Really? I have like 400 evasion, you should have roughly, what, 3-4k accuracy? The chance that you miss is very, very minimal, if you've statted even a token amount of points into dext/done some meridians for accuracy. Granted--on archers missing is a more real possibility, and that may be the one saving grace for archers, who are heavily dependent on anti-stun for kiting.

    4) the skill itself was already one of the bm's most dangerous---it is often a finishing move because it hits so hard. Now it hits harder than ever along with delivering an unblockable, unpurifiable stun.

    5) sins can resist it---just like they can resist everything. yeah it annoys me too, don't feel special because of it. For just about everybody else though (sage seekers and demon mystics aside) they have no passive way to avoid this stun whatsoever.

    Sure we'll deal with it... but that doesn't mean the skill is not broken. It ignores a game mechanic sancrosect since the game was made---anti-stun avoids stuns. It cannot be removed, which pours even more salt onto the wound.

    So far I've only heard bms saying they are OK with this new skill... which, duh, you are biased as hell lol.

    Just sayin.



    I dun really see the skill as a big thing cause it has it's downside as well.. another thing i want to ad i think this skill will actually force a player to genie, rather than be there like well am proc on the 2nd hit LMAO!!
    Bahamas represent
  • Slewdem - Dreamweaver
    Slewdem - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I don't have the skill yet, but I don't think it will affect group PvP that much just due to the fact that it's a single target skill and when being a melee fighting groups of people it's basically required to initiate with immune stun which costs 1 spark or fortify IG and I'd much rather AoE stun and HF and have a chance for my squad to kill multiple people rather than focusing on 1 person.

    The skill is broken, especially in 1v1 and I don't think BMs even needed it to begin with.. People always cry that BMs are under-powered but they've always been pretty balanced for me. I still would rather disable multiple people than just focusing down on 1 person in a group fight. Anyone with half a brain can just AD and kite back into the rest of their squads and the spark is wasted IMO... The only exception where it might be useful in group PvP is like in NW when you lock flag carriers or cat barbs in TW, but even then the enemy cleric should be stack healing them.

    But yeah, I don't think it's going to do much just cause BMs have to waste IG or immune stun to even initiate group fights to begin with, so by the time IG is up, the BM needs to kite back or they'll get focus fired and die. Which in reality only gives the BM like 1 cycle of drake bash before their IG runs out and they need to fall back, and by the time they can initiate again the enemy's apoth and genie are off cd too. BMs are generally one of the first targets to die in group fights unless they kite, so with the spark used it still has an opportunity cost of a possible 9 second HF every 30 seconds instead which I think will still be more effective in group fights that are set up well. Another thing is that when a BM uses the drake bash instead of the Roar, they leave themselves open to counters as well just cause it's not a crowd control stun.

    And just a few more final words... BMs have one of the worst sustainability (not survivability) in group PvP next to seekers, meaning without chi or apoth BMs cannot even initiate. They need immune stun or IG to even make it out of an initiation alive. Arcanes can easily kite with purify, archers can kite from range, and leap. Barbs have invoke. Sins have stealth and Tidal Protection. So for a BM to overextend into groups of people using a single target skill is pretty much suicide in itself. Drake Bash will barely affect game-play IMO. I'll start recording some more PvP videos soon and show before / after videos when I get the skill to demonstrate it's impact, which I still believe will be close to nothing in group PvP. Maybe the only counter-argument would be if the BM had a personal cleric stacking IH and psychic buffs on them they could initiate and stay in combat the whole way through.

    Yep!!! I think Bm damage can really really be sucky at times
    Bahamas represent
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I really dunno what the point of your post was, but BMs do not need more "defensive capabilities" just to compensate for your lack of gear.

    Figured as much... we are yet again at an impasse, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, and move on. b:avoid

    Edit: No I am not saying... what you implied... I gave my opinion on why I felt bms were the most lackluster in mass pvp (WHILE undergeared) you don't have to agree with that... there so isn't anything saying you have too.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Everything is lackluster in mass pvp while undergeared with the exception of a veno.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • ablabahabla
    ablabahabla Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I really dunno what the point of your post was, but BMs do not need more "defensive capabilities" just to compensate for your lack of gear.

    ijs not worth talking to a nv gear bm with low refines who cries cause he gets 1shot all over and thinks that every other class in his kind of gears wouldn't.

    i think the only classes that bm could be playing might be seeker cause it has insane def lvls and range or barb cause they got god mode for few sec.
    @slivaf just try to play an archer and hf getting 1shot by sins who dont even zerk crit.

    and LOL at the thing that rotp would be kinda useless cause its range is too low?! in mass pvp u always have a few targets gathering in rotp range when they hit on one target and if u are able to stun 3 people for 6 sec that definitly makes up alot!

    And as for being lackluster Eoria has a point, though sins and bms at least could domain and stun, so they aint as lackluster as other classes even when outgeared and outleveled
  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Edit: No I am not saying... what you implied... I gave my opinion on why I felt bms were the most lackluster in mass pvp (WHILE undergeared) you don't have to agree with that... there so isn't anything saying you have too.

    Slivaf, what is your experience of mass pvp? TW? NW? PK at west?

    TW:

    Please speak to Aelicia/Nigelus, iirc neither has r9rr and are EPIC bm's in TW. I'll tell you why - BMs are a support class, their job is to throw CC around and have a squad behind them assisting.

    Example 1: This is possible wearing no gear and lvl 1 axes.

    There's a group of enemies in front of your squad - Will of bodi, IG as you get in range (40metres), head into the middle of the pack of enemies, RoTp, HF, leap back, face backwards leap forward whilst hitting AD as soon as IG wears off and then cloud sprint or w/e its called.

    As you HF the 5-6 DDs in your squad unleash a tonne of aoe's. Destroying everything that doesn't immune/faith/get away.

    Then you stand behind your teammates spamming demon bell, request chi from the veno, wait 3mins for CDs (in these three mins you can sneak a smack/reel in on any DD that gets singled out or close to your squad (call an assist on vent).

    Rinse and repeat.

    Have you tried this and failed? Have you even been in a TW? Hence your argument that BMs are lackluster in mass pvp would be coming from experience?

    If you are running around in NW expecting to kill anything with your gear... I mean considering how long you have been playing this game, you could have very easily famed full G16 gears and refined them to +7/8 with event gold and farmed incomparables... at the very least.. b:shocked
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
    mypers.pw/1.7/#114350

    DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
    mypers.pw/1.7/#136481

    youtube.com/darkskiesx
    Tempest-dw.shivtr.com
  • Madebyvisa - Raging Tide
    Madebyvisa - Raging Tide Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Start the caster qq.. cause yeah its so unfair bm's get anything freaking casters allready 1 shot endgame bm's .. then thay puri proc so u cant do anything... they allready nerfed bt not once but 5 times... its a god damn joke if u think this is in some way op... get a damn grip.... casters have azillion ways to still get around this... so does every other class without purify... if u cant see how .. maybe u need to learn to adapt like every1 else had to vs purify proc.. theres nothing op about this skill... ffs.. bunch of whining kids.. qq cause i spent 5000$ and now i cant just faceroll everything...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MystieMoon - Dreamweaver
    MystieMoon - Dreamweaver Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Let's not forget the most important thing though. Does the new Drake Bash have a cool shiny new animation? b:cute
  • Sjuggs - Lost City
    Sjuggs - Lost City Posts: 617 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    LOL on some of these people flaming Silvaf, this is such an egoist community, quite sad...

    And yeah everything undergeared at pvp is weak AF, and by undergeared we all know it's everything below R9RR +12 full of jades, nw accesories, and soooon S+ cards.
    Just wonder b:laugh
    If you are running around in NW expecting to kill anything with your gear... I mean considering how long you have been playing this game, you could have very easily famed full G16 gears and refined them to +7/8 with event gold and farmed incomparables... at the very least.. b:shocked

    Oh, Im sure it's what many of us did, but at least when I played NW, G16 nv was complete **** against those r9rr sets. If normal r9 was the best gear still, then wow we would have way more balance then.
  • Hafnium - Lost City
    Hafnium - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Let's not forget the most important thing though. Does the new Drake Bash have a cool shiny new animation? b:cute

    Sadly, no.
    The animation is identical to the old drake bash, no matter what weapon you use.
  • eraldus
    eraldus Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Sadly, no.
    The animation is identical to the old drake bash, no matter what weapon you use.

    Lazy devs are lazy I see.


    And lol@ all caster QQing that bms finally can get the upper hand on PVP.

    "QQ QQ now I can't faceroll bms anymore and actually have to use my brains QQ QQ QQ"
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Curious about where you found the "all" in casters as well as how come you don't mention the Archers that complained about it in that well-known thread f:meh
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★