Dynasty afraid of Relic?
Options
Comments
-
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Erm no. I've had dealing with relic longer then any 'Relic member' that has commented on this thread. The reason Relic has grown is because when members leave faction where else should they go? Take for instance the 40 or so people that first left Vex. People don't like Dyna because of supposed cashers, Tempest isnt exactly the most well known outside of Tempest and they havent been winning TW's as often, there's bad blood with Regen and Booty. What other well know factions are there left that can have decent TW's?
And obviously you don't know about the **** we had to put up with Relic members killing people doing base quest, until they were KoS. And Plague did nothing to stop it. God i hate when people talk like rumors just exist to exist. I was in a faction with Eva for a pretty long time, so I'm sure my opinion of her would be more accurate than yours, but no comment on that.
Point is, we see bad things already, it's not wrong for someone to question Relic's longevity. I'm sure you would do the same to another faction.
Pk is pk if you don't want to get pk'd don't go into pk mode. Relic doesn't police that as it's part of the game and getting killed while doing base quests is exactly how the developers intended pk mode to be like so that's a mute point."With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"-Steven Weinberg0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Erm no. I've had dealing with relic longer then any 'Relic member' that has commented on this thread. The reason Relic has grown is because when members leave faction where else should they go? Take for instance the 40 or so people that first left Vex. People don't like Dyna because of supposed cashers, Tempest isnt exactly the most well known outside of Tempest and they havent been winning TW's as often, there's bad blood with Regen and Booty. What other well know factions are there left that can have decent TW's?
And obviously you don't know about the **** we had to put up with Relic members killing people doing base quest, until they were KoS. And Plague did nothing to stop it. God i hate when people talk like rumors just exist to exist. I was in a faction with Eva for a pretty long time, so I'm sure my opinion of her would be more accurate than yours, but no comment on that.
Point is, we see bad things already, it's not wrong for someone to question Relic's longevity. I'm sure you would do the same to another faction.
I if you read all of my posts, you will know that what I said is that one can only talk for sure based in their own experiences, I'm very sure you have your own experiences with Evangile, Relic or whatever, but I do have mine and I can only speak for my own. I don't judge and blame people based on rumors, that was all. You and I can differ in our opinions and as long as we keep respect in debating, it will be fine... I believe people change or sometimes they don't change but they are able to contain themselves for something they want. And I never said it's wrong for someone to question Relic's longevity, I only replied with my experiences and thoughts about it, just like most people in here.
Regarding the pk... really???? You mention about "Relic" killing people while doing base quests? Was it a gang of Relic bullies walking around and killing innoncent people doing their dailies? lol I'm sure it wasn't "Relic" but "some Relic members". And who cares? Pk is pk, and if you go white name out there, you know what you're putting yourself under. I have killed people doing base quest, morai quest, flying around, after warsong, after delta... If you don't like turn your name blue. I've had several friends killed that way as well, doing pill quest in dreaming cloud village, for example.. and they are not butthurt because of that, they know they are subject to that... and I don't think Plague would get involved in pk drama, and I don't think he should.. we have no policy for pk unless not pk'ing faction members without their consent. People tend to put faction name in their personal dramas..0 -
Eruvanda - Dreamweaver wrote: »People tend to put faction name in their personal dramas..
+1 to thatDarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
mypers.pw/1.7/#114350
DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
mypers.pw/1.7/#136481
youtube.com/darkskiesx
Tempest-dw.shivtr.com0 -
Yay for long winded posts and arguements over the stupidest things \o/
I'll keep my post short - RAWR0 -
[QUOTE=Heartz - Dreamweaver;
To not accepting drama people, shouldn't speak too loud of that.. Dreams is in dyna.. now she was a major source to regens drama and downfall lol.. but guess that's forgotten? but w/e xD.[/QUOTE]
Really the fall of regen occured approx 6months after I left it? You are right in some ways I did cause drama there. I refused to accept the attitude of many op people in regen such as your- self Heartz of only wanting r9+12 people accepted into the faction. On that subject I let it be known it should be about the person, and if decent gear they should be allowed interview . not just told ewww your gear has to be the best on server or gtfo like some of you thought it should be.
When a faction has applications of 40 in one month period such as regen did at the time and only 2 are accepted in well there is a problem.
As for this topic I have said in the past and still say what I do see and like about Relic is they work together as a faction. I have seen it many times and therefore it shows the leadership has created a community that is most important if to succeed in all areas of the game.
Putting posts up to say Dyna is afraid of Relic to start a issue that is clearly not there sheds a bad light on the faction as whole something a few do but lets remember their faction as a whole probably are not saying this only the very few.
Relic has built a strong faction and its what the server needed was to have more then one strong faction but several so tw can be fun and not 5 min rolls, which most of us hate!
Dyna has won the map the past two times should it come down to another faction winning this go round wonderfull at least lets have some fun and stop the childishness.
Ohh better sign this so no one thinks I hiding on alt _Dreams_0 -
ashleymarieply08 wrote: »Really the fall of regen occured approx 6months after I left it? You are right in some ways I did cause drama there. I refused to accept the attitude of many op people in regen such as your- self Heartz of only wanting r9+12 people accepted into the faction. On that subject I let it be known it should be about the person, and if decent gear they should be allowed interview . not just told ewww your gear has to be the best on server or gtfo like some of you thought it should be.
When a faction has applications of 40 in one month period such as regen did at the time and only 2 are accepted in well there is a problem.
As for this topic I have said in the past and still say what I do see and like about Relic is they work together as a faction. I have seen it many times and therefore it shows the leadership has created a community that is most important if to succeed in all areas of the game.
Putting posts up to say Dyna is afraid of Relic to start a issue that is clearly not there sheds a bad light on the faction as whole something a few do but lets remember their faction as a whole probably are not saying this only the very few.
Relic has built a strong faction and its what the server needed was to have more then one strong faction but several so tw can be fun and not 5 min rolls, which most of us hate!
Dyna has won the map the past two times should it come down to another faction winning this go round wonderfull at least lets have some fun and stop the childishness.
Ohh better sign this so no one thinks I hiding on alt _Dreams_
sry but i have to answer this. omg omg omg i just cant beleive all the lies i have to read...........................pls if some1 ever beleived a single word of this person wrote, just pm me in games and i will tell u all the truth. About how dreams as an officer were manipulating applications, about how dreams as an officer were creating drama, censoring ppl, editing posts in regen forums so her friends look good and her "no friends" look bad, about her attitute of trying to manipulate ppl against others, about how she destroyed regenesis along wiht other persons. but as i stated b4, it was foult of the oldest regen ppl that allowed ex equinox scam took control of regenesis. i just cant beleive my eyes. stop playing the victim dreams or the truth will rise and u wont have a place to hide. do u know why ur faction mates ex regens dont say a word? couse they dont want drama in dynasty, couse they respect dynasty. so u better **** and keep hiding in dynasty couse most of ppl there dont know how toxic u are, and those who know u just turn off faction chat when u say hi.
btw, if any1 want any prove about this, i have at least 30/40 screenshoots about _Dreams_ and how good she is *sarcasm off*
PS: just keep hiding in the fog, respect ur current faction and ****.b:bye
Dynasty never won the map, just 2 seasons. get it right.ashleymarieply08 wrote: »Dyna has won the map the past two times should it come down to another faction winning this go round wonderfull at least lets have some fun and stop the childishness.0 -
NigeIus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
Dynasty never won the map, just 2 seasons. get it right.
You cant "win" the entire map now, things change, so update Nige, we did won twice, dont try to take the credit and effort of a faction, thats not cool.
P.S: i wont "defend" Dreams cause she can do it by herself and is her choice, i really dont care about the past, officers are always hated by soemone (i know it) but she hasnt had any problems in Dynasty, that i can say for her.0 -
Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »You cant "win" the entire map now, things change, so update Nige, we did won twice, dont try to take the credit and effort of a faction, thats not cool.
P.S: i wont "defend" Dreams cause she can do it by herself and is her choice, i really dont care about the past, officers are always hated by soemone (i know it) but she hasnt had any problems in Dynasty, that i can say for her.
i never diminished dynasty efforts. i just corrected one thing, dyna never won the map. u guys won 2 seasons. if u can or cant win the map now is out of discussion. and where did i try to take the credit of a faction?and wich faction are u talking about?????
did i ever said she has problems in dynasty??? no, then u are just saying nonsenses like creamsomthing did. stick to my points pls if u wanna answer me, if u dont stick to what i said then just dont answer to me or quote. tys0 -
saying Dynasty won "just" 2 seasons is diminishing, and not regen cala or whatever could dominate a map now, gear gap is not same as before, only reason that happened was gear difference with the rest, but thats beyond the point.
About Dreams i stated that she hasnt had any issues here, thats all.
P.S: iba a buscar un video gracioso pero estoy cansado... otro dia jejeje0 -
Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »saying Dynasty won "just" 2 seasons is diminishing, and not regen cala or whatever could dominate a map now, gear gap is not same as before, only reason that happened was gear difference with the rest, but thats beyond the point.
About Dreams i stated that she hasnt had any issues here, thats all.
P.S: iba a buscar un video gracioso pero estoy cansado... otro dia jejeje
it is up to u or not to beleive or not that my correction wasnt to deminish dyna efforts, i told u i didnt. about gear gap thats just a way to see it , and it is not true and only one side of it. if u wanna say cala won the map for gear gap then it is ok. thats how ppl told u the history, but it is not true.0 -
CreamDrinker - Dreamweaver wrote: »Pk is pk if you don't want to get pk'd don't go into pk mode. Relic doesn't police that as it's part of the game and getting killed while doing base quests is exactly how the developers intended pk mode to be like so that's a mute point.Eruvanda - Dreamweaver wrote: »I if you read all of my posts, you will know that what I said is that one can only talk for sure based in their own experiences, I'm very sure you have your own experiences with Evangile, Relic or whatever, but I do have mine and I can only speak for my own. I don't judge and blame people based on rumors, that was all. You and I can differ in our opinions and as long as we keep respect in debating, it will be fine... I believe people change or sometimes they don't change but they are able to contain themselves for something they want. And I never said it's wrong for someone to question Relic's longevity, I only replied with my experiences and thoughts about it, just like most people in here.
Regarding the pk... really???? You mention about "Relic" killing people while doing base quests? Was it a gang of Relic bullies walking around and killing innoncent people doing their dailies? lol I'm sure it wasn't "Relic" but "some Relic members". And who cares? Pk is pk, and if you go white name out there, you know what you're putting yourself under. I have killed people doing base quest, morai quest, flying around, after warsong, after delta... If you don't like turn your name blue. I've had several friends killed that way as well, doing pill quest in dreaming cloud village, for example.. and they are not butthurt because of that, they know they are subject to that... and I don't think Plague would get involved in pk drama, and I don't think he should.. we have no policy for pk unless not pk'ing faction members without their consent. People tend to put faction name in their personal dramas..
I've only put names out because of mutiple things that have had nothing to do with Relic as a whole have turned into drama. Let me kill one Relic member in PK and see how many of you come out to try and kill me. The hypocrisy is disgusting. I don't care about PK drama, which is why I don't pk. But when mutiple members come out for an issue that clearly has nothing to do with them, DAMN STRAIGHT it reflects on your faction name. Not to mention all the nasty PM's I used to get for doing recruitment messages which I core connect traced back to Relic members. Not just one or two, mutiple. Also this issue never occured with Dyna or Tempest people, which is why they aren't mentioned. Kinda like that ArchTilDeath is KoS thing because he killed Racquel 1 time in NW, which leaded to a bunch of pk drama, which involved a bunch of Relic members. Plague is right for not getting involved with pk drama, but it seems to evolve beyond that. That, is my issue.
That being said, you shouldn't condone things that cause drama, which I'm guessing is the same reason Plague is so easy to hit the kick button. Irony.0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »I've only put names out because of mutiple things that have had nothing to do with Relic as a whole have turned into drama. Let me kill one Relic member in PK and see how many of you come out to try and kill me. The hypocrisy is disgusting. I don't care about PK drama, which is why I don't pk. But when mutiple members come out for an issue that clearly has nothing to do with them, DAMN STRAIGHT it reflects on your faction name. Not to mention all the nasty PM's I used to get for doing recruitment messages which I core connect traced back to Relic members. Not just one or two, mutiple. Also this issue never occured with Dyna or Tempest people, which is why they aren't mentioned. Kinda like that ArchTilDeath is KoS thing because he killed Racquel 1 time in NW, which leaded to a bunch of pk drama, which involved a bunch of Relic members. Plague is right for not getting involved with pk drama, but it seems to evolve beyond that. That, is my issue.
That being said, you shouldn't condone things that cause drama, which I'm guessing is the same reason Plague is so easy to hit the kick button. Irony.
You only ever have one side of the story and your drawing assumptions and judging a faction based on half truths but that's ok bc unless someone gets singled out and unfairly teamed up on again I'm out of this convo. It's deteriorating fast into senseless and factless hate mongering. b:bye"With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"-Steven Weinberg0 -
NigeIus - Dreamweaver wrote: »it is up to u or not to beleive or not that my correction wasnt to deminish dyna efforts, i told u i didnt. about gear gap thats just a way to see it , and it is not true and only one side of it. if u wanna say cala won the map for gear gap then it is ok. thats how ppl told u the history, but it is not true.
Calamity won the map by gear gap, and better strategy than other factions, it's a mixture of both. That wouldn't be possible now for the simple reason of the new TW Towers and archers on the walls, Cala/Regen won most of their fights by steamrolling their opponent, that wasn't EQ. It is very hard if not impossible to steamroll a faction close to your level in gear/strategy now.
I don't even know why every time there is a new thread on the DW forums, people have to bring up Calamity/Regen, it's been what, 2 years since they were the best faction TW wise on the server? Focus on the future, rather than the past.0 -
DeathProof - Dreamweaver wrote: »Calamity won the map by gear gap, and better strategy than other factions, it's a mixture of both. That wouldn't be possible now for the simple reason of the new TW Towers and archers on the walls, Cala/Regen won most of their fights by steamrolling their opponent, that wasn't EQ. It is very hard if not impossible to steamroll a faction close to your level in gear/strategy now.
I don't even know why every time there is a new thread on the DW forums, people have to bring up Calamity/Regen, it's been what, 2 years since they were the best faction TW wise on the server? Focus on the future, rather than the past.
That and Dynasty also never WANTED whole map. Its actually Dyna policy and that will never happen.0 -
I blame venos for this thread and how it got derailed again.Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Erm no. I've had dealing with relic longer then any 'Relic member' that has commented on this thread. The reason Relic has grown is because when members leave faction where else should they go? Take for instance the 40 or so people that first left Vex. People don't like Dyna because of supposed cashers, Tempest isnt exactly the most well known outside of Tempest and they havent been winning TW's as often, there's bad blood with Regen and Booty. What other well know factions are there left that can have decent TW's?
And obviously you don't know about the **** we had to put up with Relic members killing people doing base quest, until they were KoS. And Plague did nothing to stop it. God i hate when people talk like rumors just exist to exist. I was in a faction with Eva for a pretty long time, so I'm sure my opinion of her would be more accurate than yours, but no comment on that.
Point is, we see bad things already, it's not wrong for someone to question Relic's longevity. I'm sure you would do the same to another faction.
True reason why Relic got strong is only 1 thing and that thing Dion stated so clear and I dont have anything to add.
Cream, Im very logical person, which means I observe and collect information before I make my conclusion... my statements are not based on hear and say, they are based on stuff that actually happened.
Im not going to discuss Eva with 2 of her minions. If Eva has something to say she will.
Dion mentioned some of stuff that are actually true, I even know more. And while few people dont make full faction... they can shows us how that faction is run, how that faction is dealing with drama, also true power/will of factions leader.
While running faction in "democratic" way sounds so beautiful, in reality its not so much. Why? because if we lets say have 9 people that votes, and we have 5 who votes one way and 4 that votes on other way, yes we reached decision with most votes, but it leaves almost half people, in this case 4 unsatisfied and pissed:)
Our "short" 5 years in this games showed that strongest factions, when they were on its peak was run by strong, smart individuals, men (I hate to say this because im female but unfortunately its true) who were running factions in a bit of autocracy way.
While there are some fields where democracy is good - in successful businesses and running factions, not so much.
But future yet has to be written:)0 -
Temptatio/V - Dreamweaver wrote: »True reason why Relic got strong is only 1 thing and that thing Dion stated so clear and I dont have anything to add.
Cream, Im very logical person, which means I observe and collect information before I make my conclusion... my statements are not based on hear and say, they are based on stuff that actually happened.
Im not going to discuss Eva with 2 of her minions. If Eva has something to say she will.
Dion mentioned some of stuff that are actually true, I even know more. And while few people dont make full faction... they can shows us how that faction is run, how that faction is dealing with drama, also true power/will of factions leader.
While running faction in "democratic" way sounds so beautiful, in reality its not so much. Why? because if we lets say have 9 people that votes, and we have 5 who votes one way and 4 that votes on other way, yes we reached decision with most votes, but it leaves almost half people, in this case 4 unsatisfied and pissed:)
Our "short" 5 years in this games showed that strongest factions, when they were on its peak was run by strong, smart individuals, men (I hate to say this because im female but unfortunately its true) who were running factions in a bit of autocracy way.
While there are some fields where democracy is good - in successful businesses and running factions, not so much.
But future yet has to be written:)
I like this post! Would you like me to correct your grammar in this post?
Edit: I have some more speculation on why democracy may be difficult in faction. To do so, I'll compare how democracy works in a country to how a faction is usually run.
In 'the real world', we (people in democratic countries) elect representatives. (I have to assume that the basic tenets of democracy are true in most democratic countries.) These representatives are part of 2 or more political parties. The political party who gets the most representatives voted in forms the ruling party, which then governs the country, making laws and bills. The political party/parties who do not form the governing party then act as a check and balance against the governing party, by carefully monitoring the activities of the governing party, and shedding light on any real or potential mistakes of the governing party.
In 'the real world', the leader of the governing body may or may not be elected. In some cases, the leader is elected from among a number of other 'leader' candidates, and in some cases, the head of the political party that won automatically becomes the leader. In either case, the representatives the leader works with represent a number of the country's people. Besides helping run the country, these representatives are supposed to listen to the concerns of the people who helped get them elected.
Lets compare this to a faction now.
In a faction, the leader is either the first one to create the faction, or he/she is appointed by the previous leader. In theory, the members of a faction could vote for a leader. In reality, though, the ultimate decision rests with the current leader.
After this basic fact, trying to compare a democracy to a faction quickly fails.
The leader has complete control of the faction. The leader can set up a hierarchy of officers to help him rule the faction. These range from director, with leader-like powers, to executors, who have very limited powers. However, the leader is not obligated to given anybody these positions, and what he gives, he can just as easily take away. This extends to the ability to invite/banish anybody to/from the faction, without needing permission from anybody else. These aren't powers that anybody votes on---they are literally built into the game.
What democracy can you think of where one person literally holds all of the power? A democracy where one person rules supreme, and where that person chooses who will help him rule the country (no elections needed) and has the power to banish anybody from his country for whatever reason at any time, without anybody's permission? None, because that is not a democracy at all. It cannot possibly be a democracy, because the basic principle of a democracy---that of representation and accountability---is completely ignored.
In theory, a faction can try to run as a democracy. If everybody believes in it strongly enough, it might just work. The reality is, though, that try as you might to ignore it, the leader still has the power to do whatever he or she wants. In reality, if there is a democracy going on, its because the leader *allows* it to happen. In other words, its a false democracy at best. A 'democracy* that is run by one person. Autodemocracy maybe? Made up word ftw!
Which brings us to what temptation pointed out: the most successful factions on our server have been run by a single strong-willed, clever, and charismatic individual. None of these factions were/are run as democracies. Coincidence? I don't believe in too many coincidences. Is it plausible that running a democracy never occurred to any of these smart, capable individuals? I doubt it. Might there be good reasons why they chose not to run their factions as democracies? Quite possibly.
I love the idea of a democracy, but I worry about how well it can actually work, when the reality of faction mechanics will always give the faction leader complete power, no matter what anybody else in the faction decides.
YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared
CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411
CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=180279310 -
Temptatio/V - Dreamweaver wrote: »True reason why Relic got strong is only 1 thing and that thing Dion stated so clear
This is true of practically every faction, and the reason why Tempest gained members, why they lost members to Dynasty, why Dynasty lost members, etc etc etc.
The simple fact is, there are very few top tier TW factions on the map at any one time, the choices are limited.
Today for example to be in a top tier faction, (fields a full 80) you have a choice between Relic/Dynasty/Tempest.
Most people that are serious about TW (one of the best things left in this game) want to experience it at this level. So it mostly comes down to where your friends are.
You will always get faction hoppers that want to be on the winning side and thats fine, some people like easy win, some people like the sense of accomplishment of winning from collective hard work.
Then you get the rest of the server that don't care about TW and look at this thread like wtf. b:chuckle
I'm actually very happy that Dreamweaver is at this state with three strong factions, all these little squabbles over Pk and e-peen and personalities aside (prevalent in all societies), I hope we can all continue this fragile balance and have alot of fun TW. Whether you fight for Relic Dyna Tempest or any other faction we all play this game even after all the crp that is going wrong with it. Least we can do is band together as players and spread the carebearrrr! b:cuteDarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
mypers.pw/1.7/#114350
DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
mypers.pw/1.7/#136481
youtube.com/darkskiesx
Tempest-dw.shivtr.com0 -
I hope by "minion" you didn't mean me, Temptation lol I'm not even friends with Eva, like I said, my comments are based on a few experiences I had with her. We are faction mates though and any bad comments to my faction mates won't be taken lightly, I know no one is perfect but all sides should be taken in consideration before one can be judged.
---
And whyyyy do people take this so seriously and have to overthink and categorize everything so much... <___> There are only about 5 people on my FL for which I would stand in pk drama.. and some of them aren't even in Relic. I honestly don't care if someone gets involved in pk stuff and I'm sure many Relic members don't. But at the same time, I believe many people do and many people did what you said they did, like with the ArchTilDeath example. At the same time there are different types of people who behave in different ways and there is no way to control everyone and make them all act the same way, or act "as Relic", let's put it that way.. because this is a freakin game and that's not what we're supposed to do in here.. come on I'm here to have fun and if someone doesn't have enough drama in their own lives and come to game to seek for that, then **** them, they won't be on my FL. They might be in faction and I will TW along with them, but won't be my friends.. and that's all.. why saying an entire faction creates a "certain" image because of the behavior of few..? I do not see myself or many of my friends that are in Relic in the picture you have been painting about Relic.
Those same Relic members that did all the things you said, they won't change, it's their personality... it's not Relic's personality - which I believe it is mostly created by the leaders, the way they conduct the faction and the officers which are responsible for conveying that "culture", and whoever adapts to that ends up staying, and whoever doesn't, ends up leaving... that just happens naturally.. they will one day leave Relic and then supposedly paint that image on another faction..? They will certainly bring some issues to the faction but not necessarily change the image of the faction as a whole (one would be very dumb to take the behavior of few as the image of an entire faction..).
*Sigh* this thread is getting more and more boring and since we differ so much in our opinions and I have said all I had to say, I am moving on and suggest we just go have some fun in game b:bye0 -
Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »I like this post! Would you like me to correct your grammar in this post?
Edit: I have some more speculation on why democracy may be difficult in faction. To do so, I'll compare how democracy works in a country to how a faction is usually run.
In 'the real world', we (people in democratic countries) elect representatives. (I have to assume that the basic tenets of democracy are true in most democratic countries.) These representatives are part of 2 or more political parties. The political party who gets the most representatives voted in forms the ruling party, which then governs the country, making laws and bills. The political party/parties who do not form the governing party then act as a check and balance against the governing party, by carefully monitoring the activities of the governing party, and shedding light on any real or potential mistakes of the governing party.
In 'the real world', the leader of the governing body may or may not be elected. In some cases, the leader is elected from among a number of other 'leader' candidates, and in some cases, the head of the political party that won automatically becomes the leader. In either case, the representatives the leader works with represent a number of the country's people. Besides helping run the country, these representatives are supposed to listen to the concerns of the people who helped get them elected.
Lets compare this to a faction now.
In a faction, the leader is either the first one to create the faction, or he/she is appointed by the previous leader. In theory, the members of a faction could vote for a leader. In reality, though, the ultimate decision rests with the current leader.
After this basic fact, trying to compare a democracy to a faction quickly fails.
The leader has complete control of the faction. The leader can set up a hierarchy of officers to help him rule the faction. These range from director, with leader-like powers, to executors, who have very limited powers. However, the leader is not obligated to given anybody these positions, and what he gives, he can just as easily take away. This extends to the ability to invite/banish anybody to/from the faction, without needing permission from anybody else. These aren't powers that anybody votes on---they are literally built into the game.
What democracy can you think of where one person literally holds all of the power? A democracy where one person rules supreme, and where that person chooses who will help him rule the country (no elections needed) and has the power to banish anybody from his country for whatever reason at any time, without anybody's permission? None, because that is not a democracy at all. It cannot possibly be a democracy, because the basic principle of a democracy---that of representation and accountability---is completely ignored.
In theory, a faction can try to run as a democracy. If everybody believes in it strongly enough, it might just work. The reality is, though, that try as you might to ignore it, the leader still has the power to do whatever he or she wants. In reality, if there is a democracy going on, its because the leader *allows* it to happen. In other words, its a false democracy at best. A 'democracy* that is run by one person. Autodemocracy maybe? Made up word ftw!
Which brings us to what temptation pointed out: the most successful factions on our server have been run by a single strong-willed, clever, and charismatic individual. None of these factions were/are run as democracies. Coincidence? I don't believe in too many coincidences. Is it plausible that running a democracy never occurred to any of these smart, capable individuals? I doubt it. Might there be good reasons why they chose not to run their factions as democracies? Quite possibly.
I love the idea of a democracy, but I worry about how well it can actually work, when the reality of faction mechanics will always give the faction leader complete power, no matter what anybody else in the faction decides.
Errmm.. well then I'm glad leaders usually *allow* democracy to happen because, if they decide to professedly run the faction as a dictatorship or "autodemocracy" and members don't like it, they can simply leave.. and who is the leader going to rule when all members have left? Not as easy in real life though (thank God this is a game!!).0 -
Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »I like this post! Would you like me to correct your grammar in this post?
Edit: I have some more speculation on why democracy may be difficult in faction...
Indeed. Infallible argument were it not for the (assuming overlooked) few points.
Checks and balances: This is where the director/marshall positions come in. Agreed up to the leader to assign these but let's assume we are pushing for a democracy here, free world shining light you know. Having proactive high ranking officers that have an interest in the direction of the faction, put forward ideas and suggestions and act as both a check and balance and also a advisor to play devils advocate to really assess the logic behind a decision (not publicly but in a private converstaion with the leader) this adds depth and value tp the decision making process.
Representative democracy: absolute democracies will never work agreed. When *everyone* has an equal vote on every decision that isnt a yes/no, chaos ensues. A representative democracy where you have say one officer respresenting the views of say 20 members, their views on TW recruiting events ideas suggestions etc and bringing this to the officers/leaderships attention gives them a voice but in an organised controlled manner.
This adds value, creates a sense of community, belonging, value and the feeling that everyone gets a say, no matter how small, everyone is heard.
However for this to work you need a strong willed charasmatic leader who can listen, accept good counsel and make the right decisons based on this, not everything will be up for a vote, in tied votes the leader needs to make the right call so there is always that element of it.
Then there is the fact that alot of people, dont want to be be part of an autocracy, this isnt North Korea you know. People like having some sort of a say over what their faction does and its direction so they can really feel part of it, this creates very strong loyalty btw. In an autocracy if you dont like the direction the leader is going in you have one option - leave.
In the case of well the leader can do what he likes anyway due to game mechanics authority etc well yes powers are there but if the leader does what he likes there is no democracy anyway its more about trust in the system and between the ranks and the leader.
Lastly, past history idk why people are dwelling on the past, the mere fact that its in the past implies it didnt work. Resurrection doesnt count ijs. I couldn't give a monkey about Cala etc this is here and now 2013 and we look to each other and form our own opinions and agree on a way to do things, instead of blindly following the past like hey it worked for them lets be a sheep too. Baaaa. Yeah no thanks b:chuckleDarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
mypers.pw/1.7/#114350
DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
mypers.pw/1.7/#136481
youtube.com/darkskiesx
Tempest-dw.shivtr.com0 -
DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »*snip*
Lastly, past history idk why people are dwelling on the past, the mere fact that its in the past implies it didnt work. Resurrection doesnt count ijs. I couldn't give a monkey about Cala etc this is here and now 2013 and we look to each other and form our own opinions and agree on a way to do things, instead of blindly following the past like hey it worked for them lets be a sheep too. Baaaa. Yeah no thanks b:chuckle
Sorry to jump on one thing, but meh, I blame human nature. Those who know sayings has probably heard this before. "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."
Ergo people dwell on the past, analyze it, nitpick it to death, and turn it inside and out and try to fix what they see is the cause of failure.
I am not saying its ok to dwell on it, let alone act like eveyone who is going down the same road is goind to take the same forks in the road as those who traveled before them, but still, human nature, and the fact that it so easy for the past to repeat itself... is the reason why I feel it keeps getting brought up by a lot of people. Myself included. besides ignoring it like it never happened, may be all that is needed to let your guard down and be pushed down that 'fork' in the road again.
*runs in circles*
Edit: As far as the democ/dictatorship convo goes.
I'll say this about that, both have good and bad qualities in it, aka they're both double edged swords capable of both cutting, you and the person your 'after' so to speak.
Imho a good leader knows when to step in, and put his or her foot down, and put a stop to a certain uprising/nonsenciscal quarrel. (Sometimes he or she may even do something that he or she doesn't like, and come into the middle of something and tell his or her members to quiet down, and ignore something that is 'bashing' their faction.) I am NOT trying to imply that relics leader should do this, nor am I trying to say he's a bad leader for not doing this, but meh it was just an example, where a leader MIGHT step in and do something he/others don't really want to do. (Arguing back and forth, even if you are in the "right," could easily have a side effect of showing you all in a bad light so to speak... though I am sure you all are well aware of that. *hides*)
Again I am not trying to imply you all need to shut up... like I said in my first post here I find it qute admrable that you all are here defending your "name."
*goes back to running in circles*
^ It's funner doing that than these long winded posts.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Eruvanda - Dreamweaver wrote: »Errmm.. well then I'm glad leaders usually *allow* democracy to happen because, if they decide to professedly run the faction as a dictatorship or "autodemocracy" and members don't like it, they can simply leave.. and who is the leader going to rule when all members have left? Not as easy in real life though (thank God this is a game!!).
And that's what they call "voting with their feet". Actually the most efficient way of voting.0 -
I didn't think it was necessary to say this, but apparently it was. I was pointing out that a faction is not a democracy, in the classical sense. However, for a faction to survive, clearly the leader needs the approval/acceptance of the people. A smart leader will only undertake actions which won't cause many people to leave the faction. (A smart leader, in other word, runs a faction like a good business. He/she takes input from his members, but makes the final decision after taking everything into consideration.)
However, this doesn't change the fact that the leader *does* have *all* the power. This doesn't change the fact that, the leader can, if he wishes, remove any of the 'checks and balances' he put in place, at any time, for any reason, good or bad. If he had a touch of brain fever, the leader could irreparably destroy the faction in 5 minutes or less.
These aren't the things smart people do, but they have happened. Not every leader is a smart leader. The leader decides if he takes the advice of his people/gets their approval, or if he ignores their advice and destroys the faction. In the end, it *all* comes down to how good the leader is. If the officers are great but the leader is horrible, the faction will probably fall. If the leader is good but the officers are not, well that isn't such a big problem. The leader can replace bad officers. But a bad leader can't be replaced, no matter how many officers vote for him to go down. Fact.
Finally. I'm aware that people don't like to look to the past for answers to the future. This is why the world continues to be plagued by the same problems over and over again, like hunger and war. This is why, in PWI, factions rise, and factions fall, for the same reasons, again and again. If you don't believe that looking at the past can help us predict the future, so be it. All power to you, and hopefully a lot of luck as well.
Cheers.
YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared
CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411
CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=180279310 -
Seems like we're merging on saying the same thing about the leadership. Obvious points really. With perhaps some translations.
In terms of the past I think its important to learn from past mistakes, which requires an understanding of ehat worked what didnt work, but not to blindly follow the past examples.
What I dont like is the whole omg cala was the best we should be exactly like them approach.
Anyways this discussion is running pretty flat now so unless we have some interesting diversions, see you in game!DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
mypers.pw/1.7/#114350
DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
mypers.pw/1.7/#136481
youtube.com/darkskiesx
Tempest-dw.shivtr.com0 -
Ah don't look to me for any discussions of how Calamity ran lol. I was never a part of them, nor have I had any overly lengthy discussions with those who knew it's inner workings.
My point was more a matter of definition (what is democracy, and are factions run like 'democracy') rather than a disagreement with your line of thought. I too agree that the past is a great place to see what didn't work well (and sometimes what did). However, being the optimist that I am, I say there is always some room for future improvement, so we shouldn't be afraid of trying new things sometimes.
Laters~YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared
CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411
CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=180279310 -
People often mistake autocracy for something bad, while in fact can be really good if you have leader that takes care of people and works in their best interest, puts their needs in front of his/hers. Also if he have "advisers" around him that he listen and after hearing them come to decision.
Democracy in the other way, is often mistaken for something good because of thought behind it, that everyone has equal voice there, while in fact its a rule o majority, which means that even if you have stupid ideas and you care just for your own interest if you are good in lobbying and have people that share same interest like you, your majority will rule minority. In this case you can have lot of people "leave" and not just 1.
Only perfect state of democracy would be if the decisions were made by everyone with consensus. That would truly mean that everyone is happy with decisions. Since thats completely impossible due to 200 people in faction and also because consensus is time consuming we will never see it in factions.
So who ever thinks that autocracy is purely bad and democracy purely good thing, is mistaken, cause at the end it all comes to people that has power.0 -
i hate The_Plague because he didnt let me marry The_Cure , the person PWI told me to marry through Perfect Match. shame on him0
-
The solution is simple. I'll come back to the game and conquer the map with muffins.0
-
SonH - Dreamweaver wrote: »The solution is simple. I'll come back to the game and conquer the map with muffins.
Ew, a Sonja!0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 181.8K PWI
- 689 Official Announcements
- 2 Rules of Conduct
- 264 Cabbage Patch Notes
- 61K General Discussion
- 1.5K Quality Corner
- 11K Suggestion Box
- 77.4K Archosaur City
- 3.5K Cash Shop Huddle
- 14.3K Server Symposium
- 18.1K Dungeons & Tactics
- 2K The Crafting Nook
- 4.9K Guild Banter
- 6.6K The Trading Post
- 28K Class Discussion
- 1.9K Arigora Colosseum
- 78 TW & Cross Server Battles
- 337 Nation Wars
- 8.2K Off-Topic Discussion
- 3.7K The Fanatics Forum
- 208 Screenshots and Videos
- 22.8K Support Desk