Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid.

importancestuff wrote: »

We're talking about a handful of classes that can actually do so, and for this to be possible they require a skill level equal to or greater than the Assassin. One little slip up will cause them to be taken down. Assuming they are of equal skill, the longer the fight drags out the higher the chance becomes that they well lose given the nature of the Assassin class. Every class has to either use high cost skills or combos of low chi+high chi skills to beat their opponents, however unlike Assassins once that combo is gone they either have to waste genie or apothecary to restore their chi for another round. That, or bide their time. Assassins have no such limitation when properly played and can continuously use high cost skills for little to no consequence. To me, that is a broken system.

The difference between an Assassin and a Seeker is the Seeker can actually be locked down. You can exhaust the Seeker's genie and other resources. They are very good at surviving, however they can actually be locked down and forced to waste resources to break stuns and combos which leaves them more open than an Assassin in most cases.

In order to be taken seriously you need to reply to each argument presented, the only exceptions being an argument not relative to the subject at hand. I do agree that some classes need balancing as much or more than Assassins, however in my opinion it's more coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. Rather than balance them due to being overpowered, it's more because they don't function quite well enough. A few anyway. The others also have elements that are somewhat broken and need to be toned down.

However, this thread is about the Assassin class. To discuss any of these would be a deviation from the topic at hand. If you want to talk about other classes then start another thread.

Assassin have cooldown's mate, or did you forget that? Just as easily as we can gain sparks we have to use them, that is the balance. Tidal protection has a CD and a time limit, once that 45 sec mark is up, try to land a debuff, or better yet, land one before it wears off so that they are still CCed as it disappears. It's easy, also seals work very well against sins, ijs.

the problem i see in a 1v1 is, like that guywithnoname said, assassins can regain chi fast. other classes cant alone. the fact your cc skills that require chi will fail most of the time, even before the opponent sin use maze step , apoth or genie, is a problem.

and in squads pvp, lets say 10v10, sins are still powerfull. yes there are chances the debuffs or cc will work, but who will risk wasting those on sage tidal sins? just by having that buff, they will simply deny any kind of cc (unless aoe that will be used on other fighters) or purge/debuffs, means sin will be able to use his dps without problem.
thats why to counter squishiness, should have a damage reduction buff, not a avoid debuffs one.
now you will say its the same with purify but its not. you have 100% to purge them, and land any debuff. believe me or not but in skirmishes even A_Raft & Aeliah full +12 josd can drop fast if the right debuffs/dps are landed at the right time. i would rather give purify to sins than sage tidal lol

and if we are still talking about end game no, sins cant be one shoted fully buffed without debuffs.

importancestuff wrote: »

I'm well aware, however if properly managed Assassins can use their skills in a loop. Other classes can do the same, the difference being Assassins have access to extreme chi regeneration. Which, I see you were kind enough to already bring up for me. It seems that in your mind the amount of chi regeneration Assassins have is justified because as they're using that chi they get it back, however that is far from true. No other class has that ability outside of using outside resources save for certain classes, and that's a different matter entirely. They have a certain % chance to save but 1-2 sparks on certain skills with certain cultivations, whereas Assassins regenerate everything they've lost if managed properly.

Let me pose this argument using the class that has been a popular discussion topic thus far, the Blademaster. In order to stunlock a Blademaster will generally go through 1.7 sparks (Roar of the Price> Drake's Bash> Roar of the Pride). Once that chi is used, it is gone. Assuming the fight starts at full chi that leaves the Blademaster at 2.29 sparks. Let us compare that to an Assassin. Deep Sting> Throatcut> Tackling Slash> DPS skills of choice. Or Deep Sting> Double Spark> Throat Cut> Inner Harmony> Tackling Slash> DPS skills of choice. Option one brings the Assassin to 2.99 chi. Option two brings them to 2.99 as well. In both scenarios the sin will have access to a skill that will generate another 180 chi, along with a fairly short cooldown on Tackling Slash for another 50. This does not include the use of Shadow Escape, which is another 1 spark. The Blademaster that used his 1.7 chi to try to stun the Assassin can't get that back, as the fight draws on the Assassin can perform high cost combo after high cost combo. Indefinitely, assuming the Assassin knows what he's doing. Combine this with a skill that passively resists debuffs and a skill to bring them back from the dead and I give you the Assassin, a class that is far harder to defeat than it should be.

The argument you pose, being that the chi regeneration Assassins have is justified due to their immense chi use and the fact that they get it back as they use it, is poor. If for no other reason than the fact that the other classes have just as high chi costs for their combos, perhaps slightly more or slightly less, but they lack the ability to regenerate chi like Assassins.

Assassins are fish, they're supposed to swim in water. Not chi.

Never said they were, but the chi gain on sins is justified. We have one of the worst refining weapons in game in addition to low damage dph in general compared to all the others classes. Archers get more attack than a sin with worse refines, yet we are both LA and archers are ranged. The difference between a BM and Assassin is obvious, if the stun combo fails, the BM is better off that the sin. And what do you mean it should be easy to kill? In every game I play assassin type classes have to be adequately hard to kill, otherwise they sink and never swim. The same goes for PWI, if tidal did not exist, the class would have a harder time than it already has. Seeing as I am not a 'Tidal dependant' sin, I could care less for myself, but everyone else who plays the class would feel it a bit more.

In the end, you much have a lot of chi in order to kill targets as a sin in most cases, especially equally geared ones. I would side more with that arguement, if a lot of our heavy DD skills didnt cost 2 sparks to use.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

u focus bms before sins? and still, thats not even the point, sage tidal means you basically let the sin do what he wants, since you wont cc him. means even a support wont waste his chi to protect his teammates from them

It would be focus bm, get him to genie + apoth, switch to sin in the mean time, then switch back. But a bm is a lot more deadly. Can't do **** with that bm aoe stun, but a sin can lock only 1 target. GG.

End game, no one can get soloed killed through full buffs. (Again, Non-Deities) It will always be assist attacks. So if a single sin is on someone, the best they can do it lock them in place. It would require a lot of luck for the sin to land a kill on just an archer, so I would say it is isn't worrisome even if no one can help the teammate. Besides, you can always heal your teammate if he really needs it. Tidal can't negate heals.

If said teammate is getting attacked by multiple people at the same time, then they're kinda screwed either way.

Tidal would only be a problem if you manage to stun/seal/sleep everyone attacking a teammate, while at the same time the team mate is very close to dying, and you have no healers at all. I do not believe that situation happens often enough end game to say that tidal is overpowered in mass pk because of it.

Sins are more of a CC support, with the ability to deal damage, rather than a pure damage dealer like archers and wizards when it comes to end game mass pk. Ironically, archers probably can get the most kills solo in mass pk, due to the purge on bow. (provided they aren't focused to death yet)

juicybluca wrote: »

sage sins can zerkcrit any full buffed r9r3+12 josd 20k+ xD

You're high. Stay off that stuff man, it's not good for you.

i can count that happend 1-2 times whit some lucky crit of 10-12k and boosted by an lucky good timed zerk
that happend on the proper moment b:chuckle

still dont get why is ok for archers stealh but not for sins isnt the same?
also tidal is fine like this why dont also remove plume shell from clerics or wog bless from archers too?

juicybluca wrote: »

so much lols
bms more deadly than sins xD
bms getting focus in mass pvp xD and then switch focus to tidaled sin xD
sins are more of a CC support xD
archers can purge everything cept sage sins xD
wizards can combo everything cept sage sins xD
sage sins can zerkcrit any full buffed r9r3+12 josd 20k+ xD
oh wait, sins can purge also xD

b:shockedb:shockedb:shocked ima tell all my the wizards archers on server im a sage sin god immune to all that they land me b:angry
the heck you smocking ?i get stuned tho tidal half of time purged full amped b:shutup and sleeped and soged for 2 hrs by drevil clerics

juicybluca wrote: »

so much lols
bms more deadly than sins xD
bms getting focus in mass pvp xD and then switch focus to tidaled sin xD
sins are more of a CC support xD
archers can purge everything cept sage sins xD
wizards can combo everything cept sage sins xD
sage sins can zerkcrit any full buffed r9r3+12 josd 20k+ xD
oh wait, sins can purge also xD

I am not sure if your post was in sarcasm or what especially with all the xD's.

Assuming the bm is in end game gear the bm is a bit more deadly than the sin... but it is more due to the stuns/other crowd control skills. They are sadly the most difficult class to enjoy in mass pvp, let alone be an actual support especially when alone/without refining every piece of gear. (every other class BUT bm can half-assedly get away with not refining/the best gear possible/not using apo/genies to actually survive a little, and do ok to an extent.)

Bm's do often get focused more than any other classes, (only other class I can think off that often has to deal with the hits from more than 1 person at pretty much any given time they decide to attack are barbs, but they do have their shields which give them WAY more leeway. Sin's have their stealth, focused mind, tidal protection, and deaden nerves all of which tends to help them a lot more than what bm's get... though it is absolutely true thanks to the morai skills we got SOME of this... but still we do have it quite rough compared to ANY other class.) but still even in pre end game (like g15/g16 +5ish) gear most bm's are such an ridiculously easy kill most are killed LONG before they can get near to stun.

---

Sin's a more CC (crowd control) support? Lets see how many stuns/sleeps, etc bms have count them there is... a GRAND total of.... 12 "natural" to 14 of them (when you count the demon/sage verison, though a lot of these I wouldn't count as "Crowd Control" due to the fact that only 7 of them are actually aoe, (yes those 2 that become cc are also aoes/effects more than 1 person, MSS, and Meteor Rush both demonizied.) but most of them require them to be demon, (to have them be aoe) and the area of effect is so ridiculously low they're really quite unlikely to hit more than 1 person... (I counted all the slow's cancel channeling, and even the telesleep/reel in skill as a type of cc.. which means ill do likewise with the sin) then count the ones sins have... there is 9 to 10 (once you count demon/sage versions) of them that do what I counted with bm and bm's have more options, especially ones that are actually aoe.... actually I don't think any of sins "CC" skills are actually aoe... I got lazy.

---

Technically every class "can" purge with the right genie, it's just that archers can tend to take advantage of a purge a lot easier than any other class. (This does NOT make them oped... but it does make them hard to deal with.)

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Level 10 is already 50% and it doesnt need a nerf of that, 50/50 is fair enough.
Besides that this thread was finally dying out, why did you have to go and bump it again f:sweat

because sage tidal is just outrageously op?

sage tidal respect demon\lvl 10 is a complete different world...

while with the demon one\lvl 10 one, in the singular event, you have same chances to get debuffed as well as not getting debuffed, with sage tidal you have a better chance to avoid the debuff respect getting debuffed

so compared to the demon\lvl 10 its more likely that you will avoid the debuff

let the same sin play with lvl 10\demon tidal and you will see a huge difference

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah but the entire purpose of this discussion is turning moot, everyone only complains about it, but no one offers a real alternative as to compensate the loss of the current add of sage.
Nerfing the percentages would mean reworking the entire skills percentages per level, besides that im still at my opinion that 50% seems fair enough because it's a 50/50 chance.

People complain yet offer no real alternative to make up for the loss of add on sage they want to see.
Demon does it by adding 10% to evade damage, so that's pretty much out of the question for sage, since no demon/sage skills are identical.

I don't agree with nerfing tidal, however a nerf doesn't require any kind of compensation, otherwise it would be no nerf at all.

"Reduce the chance to 50% and add a SoS effect to it", for example, would be no nerf, but a buff.

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't agree with nerfing tidal, however a nerf doesn't require any kind of compensation, otherwise it would be no nerf at all.

"Reduce the chance to 50% and add a SoS effect to it", for example, would be no nerf, but a buff.

Well they can't nerf it back to 50% and add nothing, because that would just be level 10 tidal...
60% would still be too much for most people here, so really what is the solution... which brings it up to the next point:

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you all say you need tidal because sins are squishy. (squishy = takes lot of damages right?)

so delete tidal, replace it with a reduction damage skill like wings of grace (gives the opportunity to the sin to engage and not getting stuned while going in, and takes reduced damages (= counters squishiness) and allows real counter plays.

easy

@apocalypto, skill removal/replacement is extremely unlikely to ever happen, good luck forching china to do that.
Besides as for damage reduction sins already have focused mind, next thing people would QQ about is the fact that sins can do focused mind and a WoG style type of buff...

Either way the point of these threads is in the end pointless, it won't happen the way people want it, the skill isn't going to be removed or replaced, and still no one comes up with a way to actually "nerf" it in a way so that it isn't a level 10 tidal protection... Well besides aeliah.

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you want it nerfed than:

Sage Tidal 50% Lasts 75 seconds. 90 seconds CD

If not than ** off. its our only defensive skill.

I don't want to nerf tidal.

And it's not the only defensive skill sins have. Deaden is also a defensive skill. And shadow scape too (and on sage it also purifies, so GG). That morai skill, Death Chain, I think, is also defensive (while also offensive). Also, you get to choose whether to use tidal for status or focused mind for damage evasion.

people complain about tidal whitout an actual reason,
Remove psy will to psy for example and they helpless giggles plus not like pwi going to make changes couse ppl QQ about it here and anyway see ya folks have fun b:kiss

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Apoc: Your class should be the last to complain about sins. We have to get through numerous self buffs and W. Voodoo just to do damage.

white voodoo is only used in 1v1, means you dont have to go through it in mass pvp.

all other psy defensive skills can be counter, by apoth, skills, or genie skills, while tidal cant be countered, not even by purge

lol this thread still alive? I was going to make another post, but then I decided not to bother. Purify, Deities, full NW gear set, and some of the upcoming skills are going to imbalance the game more than Tidal ever did. If the rumor of the sin skill that does 750% weapon damage + 15k additional physical damage is true, then it might as well be over for anyone who wants to 1v1 sins, especially if the sin decides to shard deities which practically go 1 for 1 against josd.

The progression that the Devs (or the marketing team, who knows) made seem to be something like this:
APS Sins are OP -> Introduce R9 -> R9 APS sins are op -> Introduce purify proc -> Purify Proc is OP -> Introduce NW Gears and Deities (therefore it means less hits are needed to kill caster, which implies less chance for purify to activate) -> Introduce new skills (Which can just charm bypass people. CAN'T PROC PURIFY IF YOU'RE DEAD RIGHT?)

When instead, they could have done things much differently and introduced a more balanced game.

In a gear setting like what PWI has, with inequality of gears and unbalanced classes, it is easy to place the blame on Tidal being overpowered. Yet, the original design of tidal is not overpowered under a balanced condition. But PWI has long forgone that design, so it's pointless for me to participate here anymore anyway (since I don't play PWI anymore either).

Soon, with the upcoming skills and continued imbalance of gears, what I've said will be null and void anyway. So while it lasts, I will just leave you with this. The only thing to fear is fear itself. What makes tidal powerful is the fear that tidal is powerful. Call an assist on a sin? They WILL drop if they don't run or burn genie/apoth.

Tidal doesn't dictate whether a sin runs, only whether a sin dies. But even so, tidal is a 66% chance to let the sin live, while other classes have 100% skills, e.g. Plume Shell, Invoke, and the likes. What really causes tidal to deter people is because of the uncertainty. Against other classes, you have a sure way of knowing what skills work. Against tidal, you do not. And that is why people are afraid to do things against tidal, but really, the best way to counter tidal is to drop that fear and actually try using skills against it.

So why does it seem that sins live so long in mass pk then? Well, it's because they're honestly not worth targeting first. What would you rather kill in mass pk first? Someone that is ranged, can purge randomly and hits consistently hard and can easily switch between targets, or someone that has to chase people down and can only hit very hard occasionally with no aoe control skills? Or what about someone who can keep an entire squad of 10 alive, or render your squad useless for 6 seconds, every 14 seconds?

The answer is clear without even considering what classes they are.

Anyway, back to what I was saying in the first paragraph. I don't envy you guys. Take care, and Best of luck!

(And yes, this wasn't the post I was going to make. If I made another post, it could be much longer than this, so GG)