Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid.

juicybluca wrote: »

i play\ed endgame archer wizard seeker and sin, and sin is the only one just so broken

able to go solo stealth into equal geared groups tidal 2spark mire sub rift aoe oneshot the unfortunates stealth back kite herpderp gg wp

which other class can do this?

Seem the type of person you are I am sure you would be a sin the kind you paint here, you would use the "brokenish" of sin's for your own advantage but of course sin's aren't broken and you cant even play one well so you just QQ about them.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"What are detection pots?"

@JhonDoe:
jelly cause i have 4 r9+10/12 josd endgame chars?

@demhealsman
before you get the stealth detection buff from the pot quest the sin holy pathed 50meters away already

juicybluca wrote: »

@JhonDoe:
jelly cause i have 4 r9+10/12 josd endgame chars?

snickers who da face? you daface!,

Ontopic....: No competent end game player is going to die to stealth, sub, rift, unless they are less geard, unskilled or afk. A list of counters to this combo can be seen by reading back over this the last 2 pages of this thread

Quoted for you here :

This combo is countered by pdef charms, movement (yeah this really does make a massive difference to this combo), genie, faith, expel , dew, anti-stealth apoth, Sand Miasma, Purify spell. Also all our competent PKers will have insane twitch response to assassins popping on them built up from before APS died out in PK.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I never said they did, but to deny it always involves debuffs, not always.

at end game it does. debuffs are what kill you, especially when you are buffed in group pvp.

thats why people say tidal is too strong, it counters the most effictive way to kill a target.

again like i said, you guys say sins are squishy. ok. then why not accept a damage reduction skill like wings of grace for archers? damage reduction counters squishyness no?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

We have one, but it isn't as reliable as tidal. As for damage reducing skill, wouldn't people just QQ about sins getting damage reduction? The common arguement is stealth, but stealth pots have made it nearly useless. Archers get 30% damage reduction, I could see so many arguements against it. At times tho, it's kinda just sage spark all over again only for 1 spark, but I guess that people would argue that a sin gets too many sparks for it to cost 1 spark. Either way, the class is going to get trashed due to the way it operates. Sins have a choice, damage reduction or debuff reduction. Considering the way sins are targeted in mass PK, the debuff redution is a freaking godsend for a LA MELEE class. It's sometimes too good, I admit that, but the class needs it just to get by in mass PK. If they nerf tidal, then why cant they also make stealth pots MUCH MUCH harder to get, or give sins lv11 cat like thread and allow us to see sins our level? Other classes have that advantage over us.

I see no valid argument for leaving the skill Tidal Protection as is in your post. I would also ask that you use proper sentence structure, spelling, and grammar please. The website offers a spellcheck before you post, please use it. Thank you, and have a good day DionDagger.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I post from Core Connect, so spell check doesn't work. As for leaving Tidal the way it is, why should it be nerfed with all the anti-sin measures PWI has taken? Purify, Anti-APS buffs and pots, Stealth pots, and the massive amounts of pdef AA casters are able to get with r9rr. It seems more like PWI is overompensating for Nirvy Era, and the players base is still sour about it. Most discussions about sins end up being bias post either for, or against the class as a whole. Seeing as I played a barb when the Tideborn came out, it feels as though the class I choose to play, is once again going to get shafted, and this time due to false and biased conclusions from a era of PWI that is now obsolete in the endgame. You can see how troubling that is.

even if you have 20k phys res base a sage sin gonna hit you hard as a truck the same
my r9r3 100 def lvl seeker got a 12k hit from a r9r3 sin 2 days ago how do you justify that.... not even psys in black deal that...
also i've seen r9r3 sage sin hitting 36k on buffed r9r3 josd wizard
and you cant really compare your 66% passive skill with 8% on hit proc skill, or apothecary
just get your facts right

im ok with the chi gain, im ok with the zerkcrits, ok stealth, ok antistuns, ok infinite stunlock loop... im not g.ddamn ok with sage tidal

just rewatch bait's video for your sake..... he is unsharded man...imagine him on josd....
where is your balance now?

MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lmao sin's hit hard now... i blame tidal.

dont act like you didnt understand what he meant xD

tsyfall wrote: »

He's jaded, fully defense buffed, max NW gear, +12. I can see a player of that skill and gear surviving for that long. You can't, because simply put, you just die after like 2 minutes.

All your arguments point to sad gaps in judgement in your argument. Any competent PvPer can see the necessity of the evil of Tidal Protection - while horribly annoying, it is an integral part of the only way a sin can survive.

I see no reason to continue to try to convince you. You have ignored arguments, proofs, explanations, and even videos of evidence. I have made it very clear what your problem is:

Unlike Soul of Silence, which can be countered with Will Surge, or something like a Fire Sutra Combo, which can be countered with Soul of Fire, there is no skill to directly counter Tidal. There is no apoth that makes you stun 100%, or no purge pill to have a guaranteed purge. The fact is that Tidal Protection is a skill primarily countered by the player and not by any resources in the game.

That being said, you're a terrible player. So it's quite easy to see why you would have a problem with Tidal.

I have no further advice for you, except for to reread my first post on this thread. It basically spells out what you need to do to kill a sin through Tidal - it's up to you to get something else besides dust and flies in that skull of yours, so you can actually comprehend what I'm saying.

Edit: I apologize for my initial judgement of you. I now realize you are a troll and I have wasted my time. I applaud your skill at trolling.

Tidal Protection is still overcompensating for whatever limitations the Assassin class may have. Something that passively blocks whatever combo is tried and can actually force the opponent to waste chi or genie in most cases without having to do so itself is, and no argument you've put up thus far can disprove this, at least slightly unbalanced.

For any other class to resist debuffs or damage resources must be used, however this is not the case for the Assassin class. It gets far too much passive resistance to the only viable method of landing kills.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes because a psy's buff's don't over compensate for their squshiness, or seekers 30 free def lvs compensate for them being HA, while your at it, purify compensates for the fact you choose to play a caster? You don't think other classes have too much passive resistance? Debuff's land through tidal mate. Today I have been HF'ed, sealed, and stunned all on the first try through tidal. Debuff's work, you are just too lazy to try them, or maybe you just like killing things that are unable to fight back. But where's the fun in that?

The problem isn't that debuffs don't work, it is that they don't work often enough. Resistance to debuffs is a far better defense than physical defense, Purify Spell (under most conditions), or even the 30 defense levels Seekers get. Other classes can be locked down with relative ease, especially by Assassins, whereas an Assassin cannot.

What I fail to see is the fun in using a class that can use stealth, survive any killing shot for over 2/3 of the time, and resist 66% of debuffs 60 seconds out of every 90 while having immense attack power. This is, of course, assuming 1v1. Granted, some classes can tank them for a while or even into a stalemate, however the longer the fight goes on the greater the chance the Assassin will pull off the win. As the other class uses more and more chi the Assassin can utilize its high cost skills over and over while wearing down the opponent's genie and chi.

You do not seem to read through an entire post before responding, so until you do I have nothing more to say to you. Please read through my, or anyone's, entire post before replying DionDagger. Thank you.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I did read through it. You just answered your own question. Other classes can tank the damage out right, and stalemate, when an Assassin has to use high cost skills to pull off them win, that's the class description. And didnt I say stealth pots are way to common to use stealth as an excuse? Have you tried locking down a psy? Most of the time you both get locked down without genie. Also I don't have to respond to every bit of your post, I have that freedom. If I didn't comment on something I obviously had nothing to say about it. So you want to nerf a skill of the class because the class is good at what it does? Seems backwards. Btw seekers get more deadly over time as well, most seekers can 2-3 shot sins with ease in equal gear. They are more tanky than sins and have more damage output being ranged. Not trying to shift the focus, but I'm saying come on man, there's some other classes that need more balancing than sins at this point.

We're talking about a handful of classes that can actually do so, and for this to be possible they require a skill level equal to or greater than the Assassin. One little slip up will cause them to be taken down. Assuming they are of equal skill, the longer the fight drags out the higher the chance becomes that they well lose given the nature of the Assassin class. Every class has to either use high cost skills or combos of low chi+high chi skills to beat their opponents, however unlike Assassins once that combo is gone they either have to waste genie or apothecary to restore their chi for another round. That, or bide their time. Assassins have no such limitation when properly played and can continuously use high cost skills for little to no consequence. To me, that is a broken system.

The difference between an Assassin and a Seeker is the Seeker can actually be locked down. You can exhaust the Seeker's genie and other resources. They are very good at surviving, however they can actually be locked down and forced to waste resources to break stuns and combos which leaves them more open than an Assassin in most cases.

In order to be taken seriously you need to reply to each argument presented, the only exceptions being an argument not relative to the subject at hand. I do agree that some classes need balancing as much or more than Assassins, however in my opinion it's more coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. Rather than balance them due to being overpowered, it's more because they don't function quite well enough. A few anyway. The others also have elements that are somewhat broken and need to be toned down.

However, this thread is about the Assassin class. To discuss any of these would be a deviation from the topic at hand. If you want to talk about other classes then start another thread.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, lets look at it from another perspective.
If sins are so OP, then someone explain the ranking list please.

And lets look at the amount of classes per top 100 shall we?

There are:

35 Archers
23 Assassins
19 Wizards
12 Psychics
5 Blademasters
2 Clerics
2 Venomancers
1 Barbarian
1 Seeker
0 Mystics

although seekers and mystics could be sort of... neglectable due to the release of them being a lot later.
(noteworthy to mention in the top 30 there are 6 assassins, while there are 16 archers...)

So what does this conclude? Absolutely nothing.
Are sins unkillable tidal protection machines? No.
Do you hear anyone complain about archers being OP? No.

So apparently, Tidal protection is OP because:
1. It's harder to land debuffs. While this is true, one should also take in consideration that once a debuff lands, or once a purge does land, the assassin in question is pretty much totally screwed. The same would go for archers, but they don't seem to have any problem without such protection when looking at the pvp statistics as they are shown at the moment...

2. It makes a sin an unstoppable killing machine. Well, bravo to the 23 assassins in the top 100 across all servers, amongst all assassins that play, clearly you are the fear that strikes the heart of every single PvP'er out there when you activate tidal protection.

Still, since I don't really PvP I don't care so much, but it is tiresome that people are STILL viewing assassins as the ultimate bane of PWI, the fear of everyone and the bringer of doom and destruction, the defiler of pan gu himself.

Besides that, there are only so many sins that actually are sage, and then even so have sage tidal. You people are talking about nerfing a skill or not because of maybe ~5% of the entire assassin population.

Yes, PvP is really serious business here.

@very-endgame any purged class is killable, while any full buffed class is really hard to bypass

sage sin ignores this rule cause he doesnt get purged

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

jades at end game that nullify a lot of the squishiness

thats what was said for other classes, so works for sins no?

importancestuff wrote: »

However, this thread is about the Assassin class. To discuss any of these would be a deviation from the topic at hand. If you want to talk about other classes then start another thread.

agreed. no one said other classes didnt need balancing (reduce wiz/mystic pdef shields, increase sog cooldown, make sos/sov self buff and purgeable, tanks with highest dps etc etc) , that doesnt mean tidal is not too strong.

ill repeat myself but if sins problem is squishiness, why not give them a wings of grace version ? reduce damage, counters squishiness no? avoiding debuffs is more than countering squishiness, it counters most effective ways to kill at end game. of course it is possible to kill a sin, but its too much based on luck. or even something like : purify debuffs and make you immune to debuff for 10 secs (or something like this) would give them the ability the escape from a killing blow, or the ability to go in melee range with no problem, but would allow counter plays

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if you dont pvp how can you know what is fair or not?
if i follow your argument, sins sare stronger than wizards knowing TBs came later than humans, so they are that far behind from archers.

from your other post, you say sins are screwed when purged but not archers, you know they wear same armors right?

1. Not participating in PvP is not the same as not knowing what goes in in PvP and knowing what is and is not fair. As a matter of fact, everyone has their own perspective on what is fair and what is not, so how can you know what is fair or not even if you do pk? It is your own opinion in the end on what you think is fair.
Besides that, PvP outside in west archo on Dreamweaver is nothing but a teaparty anyway.

2. Sins were stronger than wizards or the human and untamed races, simply because of the fact that a while ago a decent APS sin would faceroll about anything, those times are gone for some time, APS is, specially in end game, not reliable at all. So yes, they were stronger, they aren't any longer.

3. I never stated archers are not screwed, I simply did not name them, don't be assumptious about what has been said.

Tidal isn't as OP as people write it out to be here, although a major advantage to sins in general, it does not make sins unkillable. in 1v1 it's debatle wether it is or not, every class has it's own advantage.

In mass PK, perhaps, granted someone actually tries to purge or debuff the sin. But in a different point of view, if a lot of melee damage is being done to a caster, they can easily get away as well with purify spell and the debuffs are rendered useless as well.
But apparently that is never the case according to everyone. The only problem everyone ever had with it was during nation war CTF maps.

Then again, even if I went against a caster in a DPH style, purify would proc 3 times in a row even when using skills, which is my terrible luck.

But in the end, I simply don't care enough about it, I wouldn't care if they did change sage tidal, but so far no one has made a suggestion to what to change it to, simply that they want it nerfed.
I do understand the arguments from both sides, but I simply don't see sins as unkillable machines as they are portrayed to be...

At level 10 it's 50% to dodge purge and debuffs, which seems fair to me, because it's a 50/50 chance for both sides. Sage is 66%, so what to nerf it to? it's not like 60% is going to be a lot better to the majority of people who are talking about it in this thread.

What I fail to see is what would people allow to be added to sage tidal to compensate for the loss of what it adds to it now?

oh rly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ307VnfoXY

sage aps r8+0 weapon rolling full r9r2+12\11 josd

your arguments are invalid

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

depends what u call mass pk. mass pvp like tw they arent that good, but mass pk (there is a difference) they are strong




i did if u read more carefully

PS : are you hidding on an alt?

No my main's login info is saved in a password database and that toon is the only one which i can remember the password of on top of my head lol b:chuckle

But anyway, I still didn't see any suggestions to as what to compensate the nerf with, because well... level 11 on skills should add at least something b:pleased

Could be that I missed the suggestions due to the massive walls of texts on some pages and half paying attention to it sometimes