Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid.

juicybluca wrote: »

too bad other classes can be purged*Sigh* please read the post you are quoting. Also if the only way you know to kill an assassin is purge just wait till tidal goes on CD... Genius right?, too bad barbs or seekers doesnt zercrit 20ksNo they can zerk crit for more from stealth Aoe Stealth, it has been done on our server and psys to deal that damage they have to become hell of a squishiesNot like they have 13 second stuns they can go squishy during to kill you or anything, or jades at end game that nullify a lot of the squishiness, while sins have a plain free 30 atk lvl buffbut no defence level buff so are always in hell of squishies mode

/5char

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know why people are comparing Purify Proc and Sage Tidal Protection though... they are completely different things and work in different ways o.o

Think I was the one that first brought it up as a comparison and the argument is in post #94. What I was laughing at was the sins who call one anti-debuff mechanism OP yet find their own anti-debuff mechanism completely legit. Purify Proc had something like 70% of PWI (many casters, too) saying it should be either removed or nerfed. Different skills (obviously) but with similar effects and outcomes. Here's my original statement.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thing I want to argue and draw similarities most is the QQ against Purify Proc and the QQ against Tidal protection. TP is a 66% chance to evade status effects, and on top of that most melee's will miss their attacks about 33% of the time. So of the 66% attacks we're landing with status effects, 66% of those are being negated (except for the obvious RotP which never "misses"). This means we have an 22% chance of actually landing a status effect. This is much higher than the 12-15% chance of Purify Proc which is a less complete version of TP for a few reasons. First, the lower percent, almost half. Second, Purify Proc allows many status effects to land for at least a few seconds. Purify proc then gives a buff against only movement debuffs. Third, Purify Proc is an r9t3 only thing (or r8r at a 5-8% proc rate).

So with all the QQ against how OP Purify Proc is, especially from sins, I find it hard to not laugh that they think their own skill is not too OP.

Purify proc has a lower chance to have status effects removed, while TP has a much higher chance that the status effect will never land. A players buffs can be purged, while purging is a status effect that TP can actually "dodge", and in addition to that TP itself can't be purged. Seeker's and BMs can disabled a players weapon to temporarily disable purify proc but can't disable TP. Purify Proc is also less effective in 1v1 where less attacks cause a lower volume of debuffs to be avoided, while in mass pvp it becomes more effective. TP is more effective in 1v1 where the space between debuffs actually landing and attacks actually landing makes it very very hard to kill a sin while in mass pvp volume of debuff and volume of damage makes it much easier for a sin to die, and once a since recieve the debuff it won't be purified a second later.

On the other hand, what makes Purify Proc so deadly is that once it procs they continue to have an anti-movement debuff as welll as Holy path, allowing them to kite away. They also have a high chance that even though they become debuffed, before they're dead they may be purified. And while sage TP can be active 60 out of 90 seconds, and damage avoided until its rebuffed, Purify takes no rebuffing or activation on the players part.

I just thought it was a double standard that one can be called OP and not the other when they are on similar levels of... brokeness? You can make an argument that it's fair for sins to have a skill with such large advantages because 6/10 classes have a skill with similar advantages. You can also make arguments saying that they both allow unfair advantages to the player and 70% of people thought Purify Proc should be nerfed so a similar amount of people would probably agree that TP should be nerfed since its comparably "broken."

Tidal is really much easier to counter than purify.

I know that people can just look at the rates and say hey, "12% is much lower than 66%!" And they can even claim that "12% * 90 seconds = 1080 is much lower than 66% * 60 seconds = 3960." Mathematically, yes. But it's missing something.

Tidal only has 1 chance to resist, while purify has multiple chances to purify. Lets illustrate this.

For example, let's compare a sin with sage tidal versus an arcane with purify. We'll estimate that both classes takes 5 hits to kill after undine strike lands. Let's say a wizard is going into an undine sutra combo. That's it for the sin. They must do something or they'll die. If do the same to the arcane, purify can proc on any of the 4 hits, including the initial debuff, and they'll be saved as long as they hold down the S key.

So actually, you have 5 of the 12% chance. We can calculate the probability of that by taking the chance of purify not procing and putting it to the power of 5 (1 - 0.12)^5 = 0.53. So there is actually a 47% chance that the arcane will survive the combo by holding down the S key. Arcanes are benefited even more by using damage reduction skill, requiring more hits to kill them, giving them a higher chance for purify to proc.

Yes, it is true that it is harder to land a debuff on a sin in the first place. But considering that after the debuff lands, a sin must do something, while an arcane do not have to do anything almost half the time, I don't see how anyone could say that Tidal is way more OP than purify.

However, I will emphasize again. All I am telling you is that even with tidal the way it is right now, you can beat a sin at least 50% of the time. It is not that much more OP than purify, and may even be easier to counter than purify.

That's all I care about now. Sure you could argue that Tidal is too luck based or whatever you can think of. But that's not my concern. If you can beat a sin 50% of the time, then it does not make sins OP. Decreasing Tidal effect simply implies that sins will use stealth more often. You'll have to convince the Devs to make this into a projectile game as opposed to a target based game.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so wrong. when purify is proced you still get 100% HF, amp, purge etc etc. while tidal will be 33%.

tbh people cried about purify because of NW flag, when the one carrying it is full r9rr+12 jades and the oenstrying to kill have lower gears.

wont sya its not strong, but its not as op as you think. in 1v1 it doesnt proc that much, would prefer god of frenzy over this. in TW as a caster you wont run in because your opponents are strong too. it will save you sometimes, yes. even in NW now, will take an example, last week end. huge flag battle. A_Raft R9rr +12 josd mystic picked flag, died soon after. Aeliah R9rr+12 josd cleric used IG to pick, then died soon after picking it twice. if the ones attacking you are better than R8,G15 or G16 +5, purify wont proc that much.

Idc about purify for NW much, I barely NW. I've seen how its abused in instances, in PK, or in 1v1's. Casters that would not have gone r9rr went r9rr purely for purify. I know clerics that love the weapon because it alone increased their survivability when being focused over that of their armor. Clerics are the only class that doesnt have a build in anti stun, dont you think there's a reason for that? They get a lot of sheilds, which more than gives them enough 'pure' survivability, can you say the same for the sin class? I'm just using them as an example.

Honestly the only reason you say you prefer GoF (like most casters). IS because you are ranged, and your DPH is much higher on skills. Trade in caster damage ranges for a sin damage range, and make you a squishy melee. It's a whole different ball game, so stop trying to make comparisons. And you aren't badly geared yourself.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Idc about purify for NW much, I barely NW. I've seen how its abused in instances, in PK, or in 1v1's. Casters that would not have gone r9rr went r9rr purely for purify. I know clerics that love the weapon because it alone increased their survivability when being focused over that of their armor. Clerics are the only class that doesnt have a build in anti stun, dont you think there's a reason for that? They get a lot of sheilds, which more than gives them enough 'pure' survivability, can you say the same for the sin class? I'm just using them as an example.

Honestly the only reason you say you prefer GoF (like most casters). IS because you are ranged, and your DPH is much higher on skills. Trade in caster damage ranges for a sin damage range, and make you a squishy melee. It's a whole different ball game, so stop trying to make comparisons. And you aren't badly geared yourself.

i make comparaison because sins started to make. u hate us with purify and u would hate us if we had god of frenzy. with purify we survive more, with god of frenzy we would be glass cannon. you will tell me sins etc need god of frenzy because your dmg are lower etc. but dex classes already have crit in this case no? and still that debate : casters are range and have more burst, tada you just found out how it works in 99% mmos ! what is funny tho, is that seekers, barbs and sins probably have more dph than casters with god of frenzy, while 2 of them are tanks. but yay since everyone cried about their own damage, they had to add something, god of frenzy, and then later had to give purify for casters. maybe if ppl who chose a tank class didnt want be killers as well, game would have kept balance :P

anyway not the topic. like Quilue stated, you all say "66% chance to avoid doesnt mean it cant work" but yes, a kill combo is most of the time based on multiple debuff, not only one. like wiz for example, they will need undine, spark and maybe extreme poison, at least 2 if those, maybe all 3. if u try to use all those 3 debuffs in a row, there is only a 3% chance they all work.

you say purify is op so tidal is not more op. but like i said, purify doesnt mean you wont be purged, hfed, etc. purify wont even proc with purge for example, or extreme poison, or cleric debuffs. even a 20+k hp full jaded caster can drop fast with purify, because if all those debuffs are done at the same time u will more than likely die. while a sage tidal sin will prolly avoid the purge and hf and take normal damage. might not be more op than purify, but you cant say its not.

oh btw, wiz and psys dont have anti stun as well.

Well about sage tidal i don't understand after all the examples about sage tidal itself and the other classes percs, procs and skills why there's even a post about nerfing tidal, some even talk about nerfing stealth, well why not just remove assassins from character page creation?, I have been playing for a while and I do play a demon sin and as time goes by I fell like there's some sort of conspiracy to end sin's, nerf sin skills, aps, instances related, melee, etc.

Just because you suck at your race/class and you die when you face another good player 1vs1 behind his race/class doesn't mean there's opness on his skills, but yeah there is on his skill.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

cant really say its "skill" when its all about luck. isnt that why everyone hate purify proc?

Luck has nothing to do with skill you just said it, its not like its impossible you just have a chance (%) and need to do tries, how many other skills from all different classes are based on chance (%).

Purify is awesome, a life saver so many times and its not like, just because someone has purify is impossible to kill or that person doesn't die, you just need like you said "luck" and hope purify doesn't proc cause there's a chance it might.

@ApocaIypto - I think your underestimating a wizards damage, go and watch the bait vs adroit video in the first minute audroit hits 41k. Even with jades that will one hit bait and this was just damage from undine+ spark.

So at max a wizard needs 2 debuffs. Undine as stated repeatedly in this thread is one of the most spam-able debuffs in the game. The wiz will probably of spammed it until it procs so you have a 33% chance of getting your other debuff (spark) though tidal. Also tidal has a CD so for 30 seconds a fight you have 100% chance of landing both debuffs.

Now what was the other skill that wizards often like using? ohhh yeah sutra, pitty this is blocked by tidal.... (wait.... what? o.O)

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

@ApocaIypto - I think your underestimating a wizards damage, go and watch the bait vs adroit video in the first minute audroit hits 41k. Even with jades that will one hit bait and this was just damage from undine+ spark.

So at max a wizard needs 2 debuffs. Undine as stated repeatedly in this thread is one of the most spam-able debuffs in the game. The wiz will probably of spammed it until it procs so you have a 33% chance of getting your other debuff (spark) though tidal. Also tidal has a CD so for 30 seconds a fight you have 100% chance of landing both debuffs.

Now what was the other skill that wizards often like using? ohhh yeah sutra, pitty this is blocked by tidal.... (wait.... what? o.O)

you forgot to mention spark has a 40 sec cd. and undine + spark to proc on sage tidal sin is 10% chance. and again, WHEN it does work, sin can still evade, use ad, apoth, stun oponent, or even get saved by deadn nerves

juicybluca wrote: »

one hit a jaded nw geared sin w\o undine spark? yea sure

if you get the luck of landing both debuffs he still have deaden nerves, and genie, and apothecary AND A GAZILLION CCS AMONG WHICH AN INSTA-STUN SKILL not forgetting that spark combo is countered by a simple soul of fire

now how do you counter 60% crit rate + 170atk lvls and gof?

That's not even arguments, seems more hate to the class.
Why dont you make one and go be that pseudo mighty evade all "God sin"?!

Well Unholly even gives some tips on how to kill a sage with tidal as wizard since you guys say they can't or have to work hard.

Look a sin! look its deity! 0_0 well.... who is a squishy wishy little fishy?
If they are deity you can force them to burn things so easily due to them not having the survival of a jade/vit sins.

There have been ways of dealing with tidal discussed earlier in this thread. Ill leave you to find and read it... yeah its getting long now, but you really should read though it before saying things like:

the only counters that were stated were "keep trying or wait for it to be in cd"

In fact my last post pointed out that wizards could use their most deadly debuff during tidal and still have it off CD by the time tidal wears off, if they decided that it was the right strategy to go with.

hum free CCs for these classes:
-Lucky scarab?
-SoSt
-Glacial shard
-Stunning arrow
-Aeoline blade

Spamable (being on 10s~ CD):
-Lucky scarab?
-Glacial shard
-Stunning arrow (Edit: 15 second CD questionable spamabilty)
-Aeoline blade

Pretty sure every class has survival skills they can use if they are in danger that dont rely on CCing their opponent.... just a thought.

Last time I checked assassins cant damage deal though sleep. So rarely incorporate it in to a kill combo. When you get hit you get woken up from sleep (the more you know right).

Most sins on my server have gone Dot->Deity, my last statement still holds true. Please remember we are talking about both classes being on the same gear level so they would be vit/Jade/deity also.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wonder if this convo is even unbiased, since sins say sage tidal is not OP :P

anyway you are right everyone else is wrong \o/

- "Its not sins saying tidal is not op."(Its you and some others saying it is, for me its the only self buff a sin has and nerfing that is just unbalance even more the class/game)

- "She is right some are right others are wrong."(She seems right and with valid arguments to me like many other that know sage tidal is ok, Ex: Zsw, tsyfall, etc...)

As a reply to an older post where ApocalIpto ask's me if i "did you even fight a full +12 jaded sage sin at least once?" I am going to ask you, did you ever played a sin and tried tidal? i mean not against mobs/bosses, going out there on west and pk ppl?


PS: I admire the patience, time, effort and dedication some players/mods put in this forum and game so others can actually enjoy stuff and have a fair play, btw great youtube pages and videos b:victory.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wonder if this convo is even unbiased, since sins say sage tidal is not OP :P

Read though this thread you will notice we have quite a few non sage sins siding with no tidal change.

You are unbiased? You seem desperate to find any argument that will stick to make Tidal OP.

There is also the biase of pure out gearing, im sorry but you keep on mentioning have people fought daity/+12 Jade sin... which suggests you have and were not on their gear level getting yourself crushed (Correct me if I am wrong). When talking skill balance you have to assume same gear level for both classes being sized up. Gear balance is a different thing and a very iffy subject on a P2W game.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

anyway you are right everyone else is wrong \o/

This is incorrect if you actually read this thread, you would find that I agreed with a change to tidal which would effectively be a nerf suggested by Longknife (Which dealt with the sins who dont know how to pk without every buff under the sun).

However of your last few posts, your arguments have been flawed at best, mainly incorrect and with some parts hinting at a lack of knowledge about basic mechanics in this game. I have tryed to point them out but either im doing a bad job or you just dont understand. So regarding our last few posts yes you are wrong.

I find myself repeatedly saying: read back/ mentioned in other posts etc... Soo much

juicybluca wrote: »

your problem is that your vision of sage tidal is limited and blured to your unsharded sin, ofc your sin in pk\tw\nws gets blasted like **** even if on sage tidal,on the other hand any decently sharded\refined sin on sage tidal is stupidly tanky simply because it doesnt get debuffed...
go watch some recent pk and see how josd +12 nw geared sage sins troll around running into equal geared groups on full buffs and sage tidal and getting out of them as fresh as new

but seems only biased OP passive skill users are replying here so its just a waste of time b:bye

Lol very few sins actually have this kind of gear, and even fewer are the ones that are sage. I think i can name a max of like 4 sins on my whole server with this kind of gear. Where are you getting your numbers from? It doesnt have to get debuffed to go squish. Wizzy average damage is very high, and mystics have Lucky Break, seekers have metal skills and Edged Blur. Not only that, debuffs can still be landed through tidal, but i guess you're too lazy to try. It's the same thing as killing a psy that camp WV, persistence.

#L2P