Un-needed skills

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

He was just flatout terrible the 5mins I could watch that epeen stroking. Purge QS and you almost dropped instantly. He cant kite worth anything, he doesnt STA and I saw him use WoG once till I couldnt take it any longer. If that is what you consider good archer then it does make sense you would assume sage deadly/whatever to be good. Not to forget whole setup is flawed, in real PvP you dont see the archer coming. As for TW? Yes, it works, he will have amps/stuns/debuffs from other people and just QS ->auto will be quite effective due decked out gear. Doesnt still quite explain the lack of WoG though.

Aha, another one of the 'its not real pvp unless I gank them' person. Or 'its not real pvp when I actually have to rely on my own skills instead of hiding behind others'. Riiiight, lol. You just keep thinking that big bro.

'Almost dropped'? Baloney lol. What you see and what actually occurred are completely different. When fighting strong enemies by yourself, you use the least resource costly methods possible to deal with a threat. Why? Chi management. Long fights, the one who uses their chi better tends to win. When I have to choose between plume shell and pious blessing, unless I'm taking very severe damage, pious blessing is often the safer option, and costs no chi as opposed to the 30 plume shell requires. While my hp got low, I was in absolutely no danger of dying.

Eoria - Harshlands · September 2013

Not even two minutes in and the kid trip sparks like an idiot...

Yeah...no.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur · September 2013

Actually I dont really consider that anything more than just a duel with charms. PvE servers tend to confuse them with real PK, which has, least to me, element of surprise. In a duel you know exactly who you are fighting and can make far more accurate decisions than when you are surprised. There really is a reason why I rolled PvE server because of what I expect of PK.

As for throwing on Pius? Good for you. Point was, he pretty much went trough your hp in few seconds. During rest of the footage I bothered to waste my time watching I didnt see him kite to position once to repeat what he did. Simple atraxia + leaps would of gotten him into position to WoG + stun. Another chi heavy way would be WoG + aim low + walking/holypathing wherever you please while your stuck where you are, while archer saved stun cd. Never to forget archer is one of the weakest 1vs1 classes in game. Even still that guy played the class horribly in such situation.

Ps. This is under Archer, not under Aeliah the cleric. Meaning focusing on archer and what they could do, not what you do.

Pps. I cant even remember what the heck was the point of that video in the first place in this thread. Something bout DoTs? Highest DoT archers got, that doesnt cost 2 sparks like eagleon, is sage serrated arrow and I would estimate it at 1.5k dmg/s at most on target w/o p.def. No wait, they are good because they ignore defense levels! Too bad they also ignore attack levels, making them worse than if they didnt ignore said things.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Context. Video link was showing I use thunderball in response to post above me.

Read. Leaping when immobilized on that platform glitched archer out so he couldn't do anything. He stealthed several times; I'm very familiar with archers who use stealth and will have detection apoth clicked sometimes as they are finishing stealth cast; first time I predicted a triple spark and was right; second time I was casting seal of gods as he stealthed, so again couldn't do anything.

Purify. Removes immobilize under 1 second after it lands on me. I'd have the immobilize off in about 1 second.

Dots. Not 100% sure on this, I know they ignore defense lvls, but some dots take attack levels into account as well... I think thunderball of clerics falls into this category (don't quote me) and for sure some of the special ones (blade tornado, etc) do. If they ignore attack lvls of user, then archer dots* are probably are less useful than other types of dots. I still think that in some cases used before a charm tick they could be useful though. Of course if everybody is too afraid to try using dots in these cases for fear of being mocked, we'll never really know for sure. The basic theory seems sound though: used before a charm tick they add in a bit of extra dmg, which could just make the difference on really tanky targets.

Honestly guys, no other archer with the possible exception of this one full deity archer does this well against me. You think this style of fighting is no good, but that is because you don't have gear as good as the archer I fought in the video. When your gear IS that good, you tank a lot more damage with gear, and you can conserve resources better for spike offenses.

If the archer ends up looking flat footed sometimes, it isn't necessarily because he was doing the wrong things. He was trying to maintain distance, using wings of grace after my offensive for counter plays. He was leaping, stunning, quickshotting, used stealth several times, tried some triple sparks, blood vow once. Its just that, I conserved my chi really well, AND, due to a lot of experience fighting archers, was able to predict what he was going to do. Did you see how many stuns I blocked with fortify? The battle I was winning was a mental one. There wasn't much wrong with the archer's tactics or basic strategy, just that, I was the more clever and experienced fighter.

I haven't bothered posting videos so far of fighting weaker archers than this, because the fights are short and sweet: too much so for my liking. No challenge. Archers with lesser gear resort to using heart of steel, and they die to plume shot, simple tactics that just don't work on the archer in this video, and he knew that, which is why he could fight like he did.

Heartz - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Now I'm not exactly friends with Merangelus anymore, and we're kinda enemies for pvp, but don't mock him that much lol.

He is geared pretty much completely as tank ( except if he use his cape and helm with deity) and with mdef neck - yes no any archer on server has his surviability, if that's whats your wondering.

Yes it was wrong of Mera to triple spark, when he for sure knows Aeliah has his apoth ready - 2 min in. But Everybody does mistakes, especially against Aeliah I'd say, because I can't think of anything he can do to improve - it's not exactly easy dealing with him.

I don't blame him for auto attacking mostly, he needs the purge to drop him, as Aeliah doesn't take enough dmg - unless he gets a 10 second lag spike (lol)
And if that platform really is a glitchy place for leaps.. meh, then Gl doing much better.. it's easy to mock others I know.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Here's a question to ponder. What is the least chi-costly method Merang could have used to force an apoth use from me so soon into fight? I'm trying to think of one, and aside from a really lucky string of purges and crits, or a really luck aim low that does its 10% proc plus no purify procs from my weapon, he shouldn't be easily able to. Triple spark is the only thing I'll automatically slam in the apoth for, because if he gets a purge off during triple spark, I'll be forced to blow through a ton of defensive skills really fast, and I might not even react fast enough. So its a tradeoff; he lose 3 sparks, I lose my apoth (and shortly afterwards, I lose a spark also for the seal of gods). I gain a slight advantage because I can build up some chi during the 15 seconds of seal of gods.

Looked at this way, the trade off isn't quite as bad as you might think. The next question is, what would work better than a triple spark?

If you are an archer feel free to propose something non-triple spark that you think would force (or scare me) into using apoth. I'll think about your proposed tactic/combo/strategy and see whether I'd agree with me using apoth in the situation you describe.

Quilue - Sanctuary · September 2013

...In 1v1s people can time your spark and stop you within 0.1s coming out of the 3 spark immune. Unless you're in serious **** and needed that 3 spark to Purify and keep alive (happens mostly in group PvP), there is no reason to look stupid.

The only reason to pop a pill in response to a 3 spark is if the sparker is immune to CC or gets out of CC somehow. Which basically means you'd use apoc/genie if the opponent uses 3 sparks and some genie skill or apoc.

Of course, if you were stunned at the time I guess you'd have to use something, but I didn't see that in the times that guy sparked.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

...In 1v1s people can time your spark and stop you within 0.1s coming out of the 3 spark immune. Unless you're in serious **** and needed that 3 spark to Purify and keep alive (happens mostly in group PvP), there is no reason to look stupid.

The only reason to pop a pill in response to a 3 spark is if the sparker is immune to CC or gets out of CC somehow. Which basically means you'd use apoc/genie if the opponent uses 3 sparks and some genie skill or apoc.

Of course, if you were stunned at the time I guess you'd have to use something, but I didn't see that in the times that guy sparked.

Ok. Archers do sometimes hit ad right after triple sparking, especially fighting me. Why does it work?

-If they will surge or absolute domain right after their triple spark, port away and stun me, I WILL be forced to use genie. If I don't, he wouldn't even need a purge to kill me in under 3 seconds easily. I could use belief > plume shell, but tanking a triple sparked archer from range on plume shell won't work too well either, because they can hit through my mana in a couple seconds and then kill me in another several seconds. This is the danger to me of triple spark; they can kill inside of their 3s stun, which is usually not possible for them. What if I was stunned, used ad, then went to seal of gods him... but he had will surge in? I'd be at high risk of getting purged and dying... getting purged sets back my offensive as I'm forced to use other chi-costly defensive measures and rebuff, and I'm at high risk of dying even if I do react fast enough.

If I didn't use my apoth when he triple sparked, the chances are too high that I'd be forced to use genie and string my apoth onto it, to avoid what I described above. That is blowing way too many resources for my comfort, especially since this fight was confined to the platform---kiting being another good way to deal with a triple spark.

Conclusions: using ironguard pre-emptively like that is actually an acceptable counter to his triple spark play, which allowed me to safely set up a counter offensive several seconds later.

youweretrolled · September 2013

1) Am i the first person wondering why a Cleric (and not even a good cleric, from the vids) who definitely has no idea what a good archer looks like, has derailed this thread from PvE into PvP and is now telling all the people who do know something about archers, PvP, and this game that we need DoTs for the extra 300 dmg it will deal, eagleon for the epic debuff(!!!!) and deadly shot for some **** reason i missed?

2) You're wrong. There is NO use AT ALL to DoTs. Archers getting all the skills are doomed to be laughed at and probably intend to go sage so they won't be mainstream.

3) Situations you should never put yourself in do not constitute good examples if you're talking about an idealized gamer who knows what he's doing at all times and will open his skill menu to cast the DoT he needs.

PS: I really like how you pad all your arguments with preemtive ad hominae of the "if you don't say i'm right you're stupid" variety.

Posting from wrong acc, i'm Sint.

Quilue - Sanctuary · September 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok. Archers do sometimes hit ad right after triple sparking, especially fighting me. Why does it work?

-If they will surge or absolute domain right after their triple spark, port away and stun me, I WILL be forced to use genie. If I don't, he wouldn't even need a purge to kill me in under 3 seconds easily. I could use belief > plume shell, but tanking a triple sparked archer from range on plume shell won't work too well either, because they can hit through my mana in a couple seconds and then kill me in another several seconds. This is the danger to me of triple spark; they can kill inside of their 3s stun, which is usually not possible for them. What if I was stunned, used ad, then went to seal of gods him... but he had will surge in? I'd be at high risk of getting purged and dying... getting purged sets back my offensive as I'm forced to use other chi-costly defensive measures and rebuff, and I'm at high risk of dying even if I do react fast enough.

I'm just saying...3 sparking alone is not going to do anything unless you really kept attention to cooldowns. If he uses a genie skill with it obviously you use something in return though.

All in all, it was a kill attempt that was either half assed or terrible. Awaken has a 5min cd, I don't see how it's a good idea to force a pill w/ 3 sparks when you can't build that back up b4 pill cd is done.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

youweretrolled wrote: »

1) Am i the first person wondering why a Cleric (and not even a good cleric, from the vids) who definitely has no idea what a good archer looks like, has derailed this thread from PvE into PvP and is now telling all the people who do know something about archers, PvP, and this game that we need DoTs for the extra 300 dmg it will deal, eagleon for the epic debuff(!!!!) and deadly shot for some **** reason i missed?

2) You're wrong. There is NO use AT ALL to DoTs. Archers getting all the skills are doomed to be laughed at and probably intend to go sage so they won't be mainstream.

3) Situations you should never put yourself in do not constitute good examples if you're talking about an idealized gamer who knows what he's doing at all times and will open his skill menu to cast the DoT he needs.

PS: I really like how you pad all your arguments with preemtive ad hominae of the "if you don't say i'm right you're stupid" variety.

Posting from wrong acc, i'm Sint.

1) A user named 'youweretrolled' alleging to be somebody named 'Sint' (who?!) and not stating their class, who has no idea what classes I've all played, thinks he is clever by pointing out 'you are a cleric not an archer'... totally legit, totally legit.

2) You are right. To you, there are no uses to DoTs. As long as you remain so firmly convinced of their worthlessness, you'll never even try using them, and in that case, it really comes down to the same thing doesn't it. A skill you never use will never be useful to you (fancy that).

3) No idea what you were trying to say here. Using big words doesn't make you sound smart if what you say makes no sense.

I'm seeing a trend in archer forums. It goes like this. I present an argument for something, and somebody tells me 'its wrong!'... but rarely will they say why (example, why isn't a dot combining with normal attacks after charm tick useful?). Put those brains of yours to work if you disagree with me so strongly. Present a logical counter-argument, not some derogatory piece of **** with no substance to it.

@ Quilue, I agree that its a lot of chi to use, but I'm still wondering how you would use that chi differently to kill me, or use less chi to get me to use my apoth. I'm as tanky as they come, and I'm experienced at fighting archers. I have a demon archer of my own, in case I haven't already pointed this out, lvl 101 with morai skills and most demon skills learned. I've already presented my argument for why I don't risk abstaining from apoth when an archer triple sparks... particularly against one of the strongest archers on the server (tankiest, but not highest dd, that title goes to Heartz). Not using apoth is a gamble; I put my survivability on the line, and if I win the gamble, I save my apoth, if I lose, I could lose chi/defense skill cooldowns, or even die. I deem that a risk not worth taking in such an important fight (end of our faction's pk tourney).

Given how early into the fight that 3 sparks was, without closely analyzing video, I'm going to assume he did awaken as soon as possible after sparking. Then over the next several minutes he pretty much breaks even on his chi, so that he can try a triple spark again later, with awaken ready to fill chi again. It might be possible to figure out how much chi he had throughout the fight with a lot of adding and subtracting, but I'm frankly not going to bother with that lol. As far as I can see, his only regular chi expenditure was wings of grace.

Again, what would you use that chi for instead?

Quilue - Sanctuary · September 2013

I actually didn't see much anti-stun usage until the end, so don't know what you're talking about there. Maybe he couldn't because of all the triple sparking.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I actually didn't see much anti-stun usage until the end, so don't know what you're talking about there. Maybe he couldn't because of all the triple sparking.

Hmm, I went back and watched video again to count wings of grace. You are right, he didn't use it much to begin with. I was remembering the later portion of the fight as you said. And if I think about it, I think I can guess why... tell me what you think.

-the fight was limited to platform, so a bit artificial (in future tournaments we are using larger platforms elsewhere). Given that, he couldn't kite particularly far in any direction. If he used wings of grace, I would still be spamming seal of god on him; the difference would be that I'd have to walk a bit to catch up to him before I do my debuffs (essentially cornering him in the confines of the platform). The result of this would likely be my combo would take longer to set up, at the cost of 1 spark for him (because wings of grace in itself won't stop a seal of gods unless I accidentally cast it onto the immune to damage period of wings of grace casting)
-he wanted wings of grace always ready as a counter to my combo, after I break my own sleep (windshield + his gear makes this a viable counter, though whether it is the optimal counter I'm less sure of)

In a more open environment, an archer would be able to keep max range better, which would tend to favor using wings of grace, and then when use seal of gods, he walks backwards until its run off. This could then be considered a somewhat fair trade, with an ever so slight edge for me, because I gain chi faster than a demon archer. In this situation, he was somewhat trapped by the confines of of the platform (notice how I chased him, and he kited away, every time).

Still, more wings of grace would prevent me from building up debuffs so easily... hmmm. I'm not sure if it would have helped in this situation. On the one hand, if he wings of graced before I seal of gods, he would somewhat reduce my ability to easily stay in melee range, which I prefer for reasons of safety; however I can still stack healing debuffs onto you from range, I just can't get a max stack of debuff as quickly, because one of my two healing debuffs has short range. Doing what he did, I stacked debuffs easier/got his hp near half more often, but he also saved chi, and ensured wings of grace was there when he needed it the most for its 3s of immune to damage. (The kill I finally got was a pretty luck set of magical shackles ticks, 3 or 4 in a row, on a 30% chance proc).

Still you get credit for pointing out lack of wings of grace at start. Uncertain efficacy in this situation. Any other ideas for using chi as an archer in this situation?

Quilue - Sanctuary · October 2013

In fights against robes I mostly use WoG, Alacrity, and Winged Shell.

Winged Shell is useful because it blocks a really ugly hit and casts fast. Aside from that, Aim Low is fine if I somehow baited out a Purify (Stunning Blast + Leaps + hits)...

That archer was perfectly capable of killing you without sparks...it stands to reason he could have been able to draw out genie skill + pill without popping 3 sparks. Might be slow and take a lot of tries, but so is getting SoG and Arrayed endlessly.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

In fights against robes I mostly use WoG, Alacrity, and Winged Shell.

Winged Shell is useful because it blocks a really ugly hit and casts fast. Aside from that, Aim Low is fine if I somehow baited out a Purify (Stunning Blast + Leaps + hits)...

That archer was perfectly capable of killing you without sparks...it stands to reason he could have been able to draw out genie skill + pill without popping 3 sparks. Might be slow and take a lot of tries, but so is getting SoG and Arrayed endlessly.

Winged shell, of course. It has a 30s cooldown, and in his case could block enough damage to get him to the next charm tick almost every time. Alrighty, so you argue that he can do enough damage (which is true) without sparking, and that he should take the defensive approach even further, by blocking more of my damage? I have a nasty feeling such a fight could go on for half an hour, but that is one possibility, lol. In terms of offense, archers (demon) have blood vow, the one spark morai skill that increases charm cooldown, and triple spark, since immobilize isn't nearly as useful on a cleric as it is against other classes. Its tricky to say whether or not a really tanky archer should put more into defense, or into offense. If he puts it into defense the fight may never end... if he puts it into offense he might risk a bit more but could possibly end the fight much sooner. Interesting...

Quilue - Sanctuary · October 2013

Winged Shell will reduce the hit that pops it as well, so it's worth using for anyone. Demon Wingspan also gives a lv 5 Winged Shell.

Not sure whether SoG's turtle buff would make Winged Shell absorb reduced damage, but would be good to find out.

He is not going to end the fight quicker 3 sparking...he might end himself quicker 3 sparking because archer defenses suck without chi. SoG can be up 1/2 the time, Plume Shell can be up 2/3 of the time as long as the cleric as chi, not to mention genies and pills, sleeps and the random wtf seal from Elven Boon....no 1v1 against a decently geared cleric is going to be quick.

As for BV, Demon stun doesn't last very long, so I wouldn't against cleric unless say...Demon Aim Low procs a stun or Purify is on CD already.

Anyways, it wouldn't have been an easy fight for any archer, especially with limited area to move around in. However, there are others who might possibly sort of almost put up a less embarrassing performance.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Winged Shell will reduce the hit that pops it as well, so it's worth using for anyone. Demon Wingspan also gives a lv 5 Winged Shell.

Not sure whether SoG's turtle buff would make Winged Shell absorb reduced damage, but would be good to find out.

He is not going to end the fight quicker 3 sparking...he might end himself quicker 3 sparking because archer defenses suck without chi. SoG can be up 1/2 the time, Plume Shell can be up 2/3 of the time as long as the cleric as chi, not to mention genies and pills, sleeps and the random wtf seal from Elven Boon....no 1v1 against a decently geared cleric is going to be quick.

As for BV, Demon stun doesn't last very long, so I wouldn't against cleric unless say...Demon Aim Low procs a stun or Purify is on CD already.

Anyways, it wouldn't have been an easy fight for any archer, especially with limited area to move around in. However, there are others who might possibly sort of almost put up a less embarrassing performance.

Your comment about winged shell and seal of gods got me thinking: which gets taken into account first? The dmg reduction of winged shell, or seal of gods? I decided to test this.

On an archer I tested this on, I did 5k ordinary metal dmg to him per hit. Winged shell absorbs 1000 dmg before breaking (demon at least). Seal of gods reduces damage 90%, so I do 500s to him.

Hypothesis 1: seal of gods reduces dmg first: expected result, it takes two hits of 500 damage before winged shell breaks.

Hypothesis 2: winged shell reduces damage first before seal of gods is taken into account. Shell will break in one hit (because its absorbing the '5k' dmg hit, before seal of gods then reduces that damage by 90%).

In testing, winged shell consistently broke in a single, noncrit hit, inside of seal of gods. Thus I believe that Hypothesis 2 is correct.

Unfortunately this really limits winged shell's viability when seal of gods is applied, because I routinely throw various metal attacks at you, mostly for purposes of chi (wield thunder). Any one of those will break winged shell, so it won't be there after seal of gods wears out, when you would really want it to be there.

Given this, I would probably save winged shell for AFTER seal of gods/sleep is over, and I'm attacking you. I'm thinking a possible combo might be wind shield + winged shell > leap, rather than a wings of grace, if you want to escape (when you deem it safe) by expending as little chi as possible. Alternately, a wings of grace > winged shell will provide a good chance of making it to the next charm tick.

TruWarz - Dreamweaver · October 2013

ok back onto topic first of all walpurga your a nab shut up your archer is about as effecting in pvp/pve as my lvl 82 sin.

But sage stormrage for all you nabs who dont know how to play a sage archer stacked with bv is way more effective than any debuffs other than hf n if you throw amp from a veno your pretty much dishing out relative to demon hf assuming once again you know how to play a sage archer n dont try aps pew pewing only and use metal combo its also extremely effective when stacking all debuffs n metal with using zooming thunder powder you would be surprised how fast bosses ect drop from all the skills you cast in those 5 sec.

Now pvp wise my g16 +10 archer with a ws recast bow kills more HA people even some casters if they are hard to kill with sage stormrage instead of bv yes it is 2 sparks n costly but the dmg you can do with it can drop barbs with r9rr unless they are BigCojones in dreamweaver n if anything you scare people with that dmg cause not many expect the kind of dmg the debuff gives most people react with apo or ad n honestly getting chii back for sage isnt all that hard if your smart n lucky with wingspan which sage can give you back up to 80 chii. Sage knockback with the reduced cd does help in pve if you know how to kite. Now for demon archers if you think not lvling knockback for pve your an idiot if you think its useless in pvp your a bigger idiot that probably thinks triple sparking pew pew is an effective way to kill anymore.

Archer skills are based off of a % chance to work already so when has that ever stopped people from using stunning arrow which is another % chance yes much higher but no guarantee n if you watch aeliahs video of the pk tourny you can watch my archers stun fail more than it helped simply from miss or it not being 100% so that being said demon knockback for a chance to get back chii wont hurt n if you really think it does then learn how to kite cause if you think your gunna kill well geared good players standing still n only using leaps your officially a nab or your r9rr +10+12 who never really needed to kite many opponents.

n for the winged shell its really effective for demons cause of shorter cast time flyranger in those fights barely know how to effectively fight on that archer other than stealth triple spark n rely on a good genie also for the idiot who called that cler bad you should just leave the forums he n probably everyone else on forums could wipe the floor with you. He has a archer he plays also and DOTS do help considering when I have been in so many fights against well geared opponents where i was a sliver away from killing them before charm tick n I dont aps pew pew esp against people with high pdef its kinda pointless n would have gotten the kills more likely if i used sage vicious stacked with bv or sage stormrage cause everytime i use them now that sliver of health is always gone.

TruWarz - Dreamweaver · October 2013

also mera's fights he does make several mistakes but everyone does. personally as a sage archer triple sparking in the open is pointless 100% demon i dont see being any different esp in a 1v1most of the time also the guy never freakin kites idc who you are if you let a slow cler run up on you so you only do half dmg most of the time YOUR going to lose you might aswell fight with a r8r purge bow

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Honestly, the most skill use I see from 99% of all archer in mass pvp is: quickshot, stunning arrow. Archers seems to be plagued by people getting r9rr and tab+auto attack, mlre so than other classes. An example of this was an nw where 3 archers was standing outside the base in crystal fight and when someone ran out it was 3xquickshot folowwed by auto attacks. So for pvp you apparantly just need that, unless you are outgeared, or maybe on par with some

Jarkhen - Archosaur · October 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, the most skill use I see from 99% of all archer in mass pvp is: quickshot, stunning arrow. Archers seems to be plagued by people getting r9rr and tab+auto attack, mlre so than other classes. An example of this was an nw where 3 archers was standing outside the base in crystal fight and when someone ran out it was 3xquickshot folowwed by auto attacks. So for pvp you apparantly just need that, unless you are outgeared, or maybe on par with some

Well, obviously if I can kill someone in two hits I'm not going to bother with anything besides stun/qs. I often find myself not even doing that, opting for an instant take aim instead because it's faster.

In equally-geared endgame fights, stun/qs on its own ain't gonna cut it.

Un-needed skills

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