Un-needed skills

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Here to add in a few comments.

-stormrage eagleon: sage, pve and pvp uses, demon, probably don't learn: why not have it as sage? Consider a situation where nobody else in your squad has physical or elemental defense debuffs, you might consider using it. And do NOT freakin tell me it doesn't debuff physical/elemental defense by 50%, I've got video proof, I don't care if it didn't USE to, nowadays it DOES lol. For bosses and the like, you might consider using it if you don't have a cleric for the elemental debuff, or cleric, veno, barb for physical debuff (if you have a bm I'd assume he'd be using hf first). If your squad is primarily magical dmg, which does occasionally happen, then the debuff is great. Naturally, I've seen stormrage do some pretty insane stuff in pvp as well, but thats a different story.

-whisper shot: pvp only, sage or demon, it does have its uses in pvp, I've seen it used against me with high efficacy when I was anti stunned, stopped me a couple times from an otherwise sure kill. That being said, if you are low on chi, you'd usually prefer wings of grace

-serrated arrow/vicious arrow; pvp only, sage or demon: contrary to popular belief, they do have some applications in pvp. Just like a psychic trying to kill a really difficult target (example, me), you load up dots right before you plan on ticking the enemy's charm. Then when the charm ticks, the dots are adding in to your normal attacks. And the added dmg from those dots is maybe 2-3k dmg, which can just help you beat somebody's charm in some cases where otherwise you just wouldn't do enough dmg.

-knockback arrow: sage, pve only, demon, pvp and pve: why not have it? Unless you uber pimp your bow out right away, there'll be mobs that you don't kill all that fast. Or in bhs, a 1mil hp mob that even r9rr archers won't blow through that fast. If its just you killing it, why not push it back? Will let you get a few seconds more of full range dmg on melee mobs. For demon, knockback arrow comes with a bunch of chi, so that could be useful in pvp.

-deadly shot: sage, pvp only:sage deadly shot does full dmg even at melee range. Thats bound to have some uses, like, oh, bypassing psychics charms if will surge is not in cd? I mean you could try it with winged pledge, which has no %wep dmg... or maybe lightning, even though psys are arcane... you could seal yourself with some auto attacks... hmm lol. Anyways. It has some uses.

Which pretty much covers most of the oft-scoffed at skills. Don't let other people limit your imagination regarding how your skillset can be used!

Cheers,

Aeliah

Quilue - Sanctuary

KB: You're not supposed to level it because the knock back range stays the same...waste of money for bad skill damage and extra mana cost

Whisper Shot: I've given my input on that one already

Deadly Shot: 3s channel...I think you're almost better off auto attacking at melee range. There are better options.

Oft scoffed at for good reasons...

Viktorian - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

KB: You're not supposed to level it because the knock back range stays the same...waste of money for bad skill damage and extra mana cost

Whisper Shot: I've given my input on that one already

Deadly Shot: 3s channel...I think you're almost better off auto attacking at melee range. There are better options.

Oft scoffed at for good reasons...

deadly shot
ur entire arguement is based off a 3 second channel
pvp wise the only time ive ever see it used is after stunning arrow (when they cant do **** for the 3s) and tbch 3seconds is a rly good channel time considering some of the other classes skills(wizzy in particular)
Knockback
ur not supposed to lvl it
well hell
ur not supposed to do ALOT of things and u still see ppl doing it. because they can
if they wanna lvl knockback(which btw i did, cuz hey dmg is still dmg) let em. and even if its minor dmg its still more dmg then ur doing at lvl 1 anyway. idc bout mp costs since i never have to worry bout that
NO SKILL SHOULD BE SCOFFED AT
PW thinks all skills are usefil and all of them are
it all depends on how u use the skills
OBVIOUSLY u are a cookie cutter archer(god i hate cookie cutter classes) and dont have any fun with ur char.
have a nice day

Misturo - Sanctuary

Uhh sage and pve? Id say go demon then. I honestly would prefer Archer as sage when I go PvP. Which is, what Im someday gonna do when I get my sin fully geared up for her TW's and NW's.

Reasons are already posted up there somewhere whats the difference of both of them, so Im not gonna repeat everything.

Eoria - Harshlands

You'd do more damage auto-attacking in the time it'd take you to channel Deadly Shot. Seriously.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Here to add in a few comments.

-stormrage eagleon: sage, pve and pvp uses, demon, probably don't learn: why not have it as sage? Consider a situation where nobody else in your squad has physical or elemental defense debuffs, you might consider using it. And do NOT freakin tell me it doesn't debuff physical/elemental defense by 50%, I've got video proof, I don't care if it didn't USE to, nowadays it DOES lol. For bosses and the like, you might consider using it if you don't have a cleric for the elemental debuff, or cleric, veno, barb for physical debuff (if you have a bm I'd assume he'd be using hf first). If your squad is primarily magical dmg, which does occasionally happen, then the debuff is great. Naturally, I've seen stormrage do some pretty insane stuff in pvp as well, but thats a different story.

-whisper shot: pvp only, sage or demon, it does have its uses in pvp, I've seen it used against me with high efficacy when I was anti stunned, stopped me a couple times from an otherwise sure kill. That being said, if you are low on chi, you'd usually prefer wings of grace

-serrated arrow/vicious arrow; pvp only, sage or demon: contrary to popular belief, they do have some applications in pvp. Just like a psychic trying to kill a really difficult target (example, me), you load up dots right before you plan on ticking the enemy's charm. Then when the charm ticks, the dots are adding in to your normal attacks. And the added dmg from those dots is maybe 2-3k dmg, which can just help you beat somebody's charm in some cases where otherwise you just wouldn't do enough dmg.

-knockback arrow: sage, pve only, demon, pvp and pve: why not have it? Unless you uber pimp your bow out right away, there'll be mobs that you don't kill all that fast. Or in bhs, a 1mil hp mob that even r9rr archers won't blow through that fast. If its just you killing it, why not push it back? Will let you get a few seconds more of full range dmg on melee mobs. For demon, knockback arrow comes with a bunch of chi, so that could be useful in pvp.

-deadly shot: sage, pvp only:sage deadly shot does full dmg even at melee range. Thats bound to have some uses, like, oh, bypassing psychics charms if will surge is not in cd? I mean you could try it with winged pledge, which has no %wep dmg... or maybe lightning, even though psys are arcane... you could seal yourself with some auto attacks... hmm lol. Anyways. It has some uses.

Which pretty much covers most of the oft-scoffed at skills. Don't let other people limit your imagination regarding how your skillset can be used!

Cheers,

Aeliah

How do you keep finding such deceptively intelligent-sounding ways to say stupid ****.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Deadly Shot: 3s channel...I think you're almost better off auto attacking at melee range. There are better options.

Deadly shot is not meant to be channeled when the person is already in melee range. The point of sage doing full damage is when someone realizes you are targeting them then runs/leaps/ports into melee range. You want to start channeling from a distance. I find the skill very effective on sins who are likely to use their stun tele skill (can't recall the name at the moment). You just hit AD (or use an anti-stun skill/pot ahead of time) and keep deadly shot channeling and it hits them for full damage, often killing them or taking enough HP away to kill them in a follow up shot.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Viktorian - Archosaur wrote: »

deadly shot
ur entire arguement is based off a 3 second channel
pvp wise the only time ive ever see it used is after stunning arrow (when they cant do **** for the 3s) and tbch 3seconds is a rly good channel time considering some of the other classes skills(wizzy in particular)
Knockback
ur not supposed to lvl it
well hell
ur not supposed to do ALOT of things and u still see ppl doing it. because they can
if they wanna lvl knockback(which btw i did, cuz hey dmg is still dmg) let em. and even if its minor dmg its still more dmg then ur doing at lvl 1 anyway. idc bout mp costs since i never have to worry bout that
NO SKILL SHOULD BE SCOFFED AT
PW thinks all skills are usefil and all of them are
it all depends on how u use the skills
OBVIOUSLY u are a cookie cutter archer(god i hate cookie cutter classes) and dont have any fun with ur char.
have a nice day

Vik... please. Stop making a fool out of yourself on the forums.

- Using Deadly Shot after Stunning Arrow is just as worthless as using it in any other situation. First, because I can do more damage with normal shots in the same time period (or, preferably, qs + normal), and -
- If I really wanted a oneshot skill, a fully charged take aim would do more damage in the same (less for demon) time, for any weapon remotely resembling endgame - this includes r8 and nirvana.

- Comparing archer skill channel times to e.g. wizard skill channel times is like comparing archer normal attack rate to wizard normal attack rate. Wizards hit faster with normal attacks, so surely they should be using normal attacks no?
- Archer skill damage, in general, is pitiful. Accept that and you'll find your strolls through the archer subforum a lot more sensible.
- Some skills -should- be scoffed at, like it or not. Non-sage stormrage does complete sht for damage at the cost of two sparks. It sucks. Serrated and vicious arrow do complete sht for damage and aren't worth the channel/cast times. They suck, although serrated has extremely marginal use in a pve dps rotation against physical immune mobs (while all metal skills are on cd).

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Here to add in a few comments.

-stormrage eagleon: sage, pve and pvp uses, demon, probably don't learn: why not have it as sage? Consider a situation where nobody else in your squad has physical or elemental defense debuffs, you might consider using it. And do NOT freakin tell me it doesn't debuff physical/elemental defense by 50%, I've got video proof, I don't care if it didn't USE to, nowadays it DOES lol. For bosses and the like, you might consider using it if you don't have a cleric for the elemental debuff, or cleric, veno, barb for physical debuff (if you have a bm I'd assume he'd be using hf first). If your squad is primarily magical dmg, which does occasionally happen, then the debuff is great. Naturally, I've seen stormrage do some pretty insane stuff in pvp as well, but thats a different story.

-whisper shot: pvp only, sage or demon, it does have its uses in pvp, I've seen it used against me with high efficacy when I was anti stunned, stopped me a couple times from an otherwise sure kill. That being said, if you are low on chi, you'd usually prefer wings of grace

-serrated arrow/vicious arrow; pvp only, sage or demon: contrary to popular belief, they do have some applications in pvp. Just like a psychic trying to kill a really difficult target (example, me), you load up dots right before you plan on ticking the enemy's charm. Then when the charm ticks, the dots are adding in to your normal attacks. And the added dmg from those dots is maybe 2-3k dmg, which can just help you beat somebody's charm in some cases where otherwise you just wouldn't do enough dmg.

The extra damage isn't even a fraction of an autoattack; only application for dot arrows is on phys immune mobs and Demon Serrated for a quick heal

-knockback arrow: sage, pve only, demon, pvp and pve: why not have it? Unless you uber pimp your bow out right away, there'll be mobs that you don't kill all that fast. Or in bhs, a 1mil hp mob that even r9rr archers won't blow through that fast. If its just you killing it, why not push it back? Will let you get a few seconds more of full range dmg on melee mobs. For demon, knockback arrow comes with a bunch of chi, so that could be useful in pvp.

33% chance to gain 30 chi, meaning ~3 shots to statistically guarantee granting 30 chi. Channel + cast + CD = 13.6 sec * 3 = 40.8 sec to get the chi bonus, vs 2 instant take aims in between autos, 7.2 seconds cast + first take aim CD for 30chi and better dps due to speed. I got my sage knockback because I was bad at defending WS and wanted faster knockbacks (it's still slow and infrequent qq) and it is useful, but not that much

Also the channel time and cast time for it is so long I only manage to get 1 extra hit in by knocking mob back. By the time stun or aim low hits fast moving morai mobs usually get back into range.

-deadly shot: sage, pvp only:sage deadly shot does full dmg even at melee range. Thats bound to have some uses, like, oh, bypassing psychics charms if will surge is not in cd? I mean you could try it with winged pledge, which has no %wep dmg... or maybe lightning, even though psys are arcane... you could seal yourself with some auto attacks... hmm lol. Anyways. It has some uses.

Which pretty much covers most of the oft-scoffed at skills. Don't let other people limit your imagination regarding how your skillset can be used!

Cheers,

Aeliah

Mathematically extreme poison is more effective on endgame defense than sage stormrage (diminishing gains on defense. I'll upload the math later too lazy right now). Since even sage archers don't have on-demand fast chi skills (qq I want Inner Harmony) it's kind of risky to throw all that chi out there, but yes. Stormrage BV ztp metal combo with EP does sound good, if it doesn't automatically drain almost all your resources, lol

Quilue - Sanctuary

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

Deadly shot is not meant to be channeled when the person is already in melee range. The point of sage doing full damage is when someone realizes you are targeting them then runs/leaps/ports into melee range. You want to start channeling from a distance. I find the skill very effective on sins who are likely to use their stun tele skill (can't recall the name at the moment). You just hit AD (or use an anti-stun skill/pot ahead of time) and keep deadly shot channeling and it hits them for full damage, often killing them or taking enough HP away to kill them in a follow up shot.

To me, Deadly is not worth it because the damage output does not warrant the 3s channel. This isn't Divine Pyro (also 3s chan)..the damage adds are barely more than Gush. You could use it as part of some sort of Zooming Thunder combo though. You could also use it from stealth...but I don't see the melee range application. Besides, STA is better as an opener anyway.

If you channel Deadly with your opponent fully aware, there is always the possibility they would just interrupt with something faster. A sin can just use Knife Throw, for example.

It's also dangerous to stand still for so long and wait for the opponent to get close unless you know what the opponent has expended already. A wizard can get in, cast a 0 chan sleep, and hit you with Spark, for example...and that can happen in less than a second. You always want to be ready to cast skills (WoG, Condor, Alacrity, Leaps) when expecting someone to come close, the worst thing that can happen is you get rushed mid-channel.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Hmmm hmmmmm.

-I didn't say you *should* use these skills *frequently*. Go read again. I said they have *some uses*.

-are you seriously still telling me you worry about mana cost? Get out of here. This is 2013, we have auto potters and cheapass mana pots that give you 5000 mana. You should NEVER have to worry about mana as an archer.

-if you fight people who are geared a lot better than you, sometimes auto attacks just don't cut it. The extra dmg from dots really can allow you to kill people you otherwise wouldn't be able to, as long as you use them right before ticking an enemies charm. I won't budge on this point, I've seen it happen to me, and I've done it to others on a variety of classes.

-sages have 3-4 skills that give bundles of chi, and don't forget master li's in addition to those. They really can afford to throw chi expensive skills out there more often. Are you seriously trying to tell me a 50% magic and physical defense debuff + slow on enemy doesn't make a big difference?... yeah, thats nonsense. There are plenty of people I can't kill without debuffing magical defense, and thats only 35% debuff. 50% is nuts. And lest you forget, there is a very powerful metal dot that goes along with those debuffs.

-demon knockback arrow... I did some testing with my demon archer, who has demon quickshot, take aim, and knockback arrow.

To keep it fair I did time tests to reach 3 sparks from empty, and didn't use demon quickshot, which would be one variable too many to calculate in. I used (a) auto attacks and instant take aim, or (b) auto attacks and instant take aim and knockback; each instant take aim or knockback arrow was done as soon as it was off cooldown.

(a) 47 seconds +- 1 seconds each time
(b) 44, 37, 43, 42, 48, 40, 46, 46, 37, 43, 47, 46, 42, 42, average of 40 seconds. More trials would, of course, give more accurate results, probably closer to 42-43 seconds.

Another way of looking at it is, when building up 3 sparks, I had the time to use knockback arrow 3 times. If it proced three times, 37 seconds, twice, 40 seconds, once, 43 seconds, and not at all, 47 seconds, same as not using it. The average chance will be one proc, so you'll typically save 3-4 seconds building up triple spark from empty, when comparing instant take aim vs instant take aim + knockback arrow. Worst case scenario is similar chi gain to not using it, and best case scenario is up to 10 seconds saved.

Clearly, you'll do more dps by not using knockback arrow, since you get in a couple extra auto attacks. Whether the time saved gaining chi is useful is up to each archer to decide. In some situations you may be more interested in building chi fast than in doing straight up damage, for example, on very tanky opponents that straight up auto attacks just don't work on. If you are desperately in need of 30 more chi fast to do, say, wings of grace, you might try a knockback arrow instead of an instant take aim and 4 auto attacks., which takes 1.5 seconds longer to complete. My point is, there may be applications for this skill; writing it off completely is not smart.

As far as using knockback in pve, you have to slow mob first for it to be effective... a forgotten use of frost arrow, yes, it slows mobs lol. Something like, frost arrow, wingspan, knockback, quickshot, stunning arrow, auto attacks.

-and finally, deadly shot. I discussed the situational (very situational) use of this skill with a psychic, and in the scenario I presented, they could see the legitimacy of using it.

Lets say you are fighting a good psychic as an archer, a sage archer. They, being clever, know that they are safest right up close to you, so every time they get a purify proc, or sometimes with just walking or holy path, they get into your melee range. Naturally the first few times you port. Eventually your ports are on cd, and there they are again, right in your melee range.

Lets say you've just gotten their hp near half by using stunning arrow. Do you:

-auto attack in melee range? chance of getting sealed is very high, half dmg
-walk backwards for 2 seconds to get out of melee range, then use another skill?
-deadly shot and hope for a crit to bypass their charm?
-give up?

Clearly you want to get the range, but a clever opponent will not always let you get the range. If you auto attack carelessly on a psy, you could end up sealing yourself, allowing them to counter you with stuns and their 79 seal, which could really **** you over. I can definitely see in such a situation as I've described where deadly shot becomes more appealing to sage.

Lets say you are fighting an assassin. You know the assassin is spamming magic defense charms. He immobilizes you and you port. Lets say his hp is approaching half, and certain skills like wings of grace and stunning arrow aren't ready yet. You know he'll port to you in a moment. Do you:

-use a metal attack anyways?
-wait for him to arrive then use winged pledge or winged span?
-use wings of protection and risk getting killed during cast time?
-deadly shot and have it hit them as they arrive at you?
-give up?

Most archers tend to use metal anyways, and because its so predictable, my assassin can just keep spamming the magic defense charms. I would argue though that throwing in a deadly shot now and then could really mess a sin up. A crit from that skill could bypass an assassin's charm; while archer skills don't do 'much dmg', its still significantly harder hitting than an auto attack (tick their charm and get their hp back to full) or a normal spell which doesn't have 100% wep dmg, and which, furthermore, will have 1/2 dmg reduction once the sin inevitably ports in). Consider the sin porting in: he probably has tidal protection in. If you are hoping to get the debuff from thunder shock on that sin you'll probably be disappointed, and any sin worth their salt will be expecting the metal and be using magic defense charms, or even one step ahead of that, heart of steel.

I'm still thinking that, in certain *very specific situations* deadly shot could be useful. Just because you don't use it frequently, doesn't mean it doesn't have a use. Consider arrow inferno. This is a 1 spark skill that we don't want to use frequently, unless the situation calls for it. Namely, if the person is just too tanky to kill with normal methods, or too skilled, you have to start being more creative.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

I used to use frost arrow to slow mobs and I still do when it's an inc life morai mob but for the most part, they die to autos before getting within 5 meters so it's been a long while since I used it regularly for the slow.

Eoria - Harshlands

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets say you've just gotten their hp near half by using stunning arrow. Do you:

-auto attack in melee range? chance of getting sealed is very high, half dmg
-walk backwards for 2 seconds to get out of melee range, then use another skill?
-deadly shot and hope for a crit to bypass their charm?
-give up?

E. Leap->will surge->auto-attack. Or ZTP metal combo.

I mean...really?

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

E. Leap->will surge->auto-attack. Or ZTP metal combo.

I mean...really?

Reading comprehension: 'assuming leaps are on cd". I even gave you a paragraph to explain why you'd expect leaps to be on cd some of the time. I should think it goes without saying will surge will be on cd sometimes, it has 30seconds between uses.

And lets get real, psychics who know their stuff don't fall to a simple will surge > auto attack unless we are talking about some serious gear gaps, or a seriously luck archer (stuff like 2 or 3 purges back to back, or 5+ crits in a row). They can walk into your melee range for half dmg. Stun you. Soulburn. White voodoo. Soul of stunning/retaliation. All stuff that doesn't even factor into account genie or apoth.

As far as ZTP goes, deadly shot would be great to include in that, with its larger than normal dmg and 0.6 cast. Probably should macro it. Psychics fall best to physical dmg after all, keeping in mind that they have the lowest physical defense of all arcanes.

~

Aeliah

opkossy

One question.

Don't you think it's a bit counter-intuitive to essentially be saying, "This skill works great in VERY SPECIFIC SITUATION HERE even though you'll rarely, if ever, even consider touching it outside of said situation."?

Every class has its own batch of skills that are useless the vast majority of the time but will shine in some very specific situation. However people don't argue them as useful based on those small cases. They, instead, say that in most cases you won't really need the skill and odds are that when you do need it you'll have it maxed anyways and be able to recognize that it might have a use there.

I mean come on. The guy even mentioned he was 99% PvE, yet you still brought up PvP corner cases that have... practically no relevance whatsoever. It's one thing if this was meant to be a thread about the uses of various skills for PvP, though even then I wouldn't use corner cases to try and justify them, but for what the topic was about I find it a bit much to be trying to justify those skills like that.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Already logged off for maint but I would argue metal skills, despite m.def charms arent a horrible idea. 90% of sins are farming alts and thus will have massively higher p.def than m..def. I believe my sins figures are fully buffed at 15.5k p.def & 8.4k m.def. That is with sapphire gem sharding on 2 pieces, your average sins wont really pass 8k, might struggle for 7,5k with buffs. Add in metal debuff.

But with some numbers, 15.3k p.def results in 79% reduction. Meaning you deal 21% of your physical damage to said sin.

8.4k m.def comes out as 67%. Meaning you deal 33% of your damage to said sin. Add in metal debuff and we are at 4,2k m.def, which comes out as 51% reduction, meaning you deal 49% of your damage to said sin. Add in defense charm for 16,5% w/o debuff and 24,5% with debuff.

And that is a sin that has more m.def than your average aps set sins. DPH sins will have clearly more m.def but seriously speaking, how much more common is aps sin? Or how many outside of people, even inside, endgame gear tier uses defense charms? While arguing for deadly shot might work on paper, in reality the situations dont really exist. Well outside of the few top tier sins on your server who you can count on having high m.def and using def charms. Then again those might use physical defense charms as well, making magic again better option.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

if it's a typical aps sin then you just insta take aim and it drops lol

Quilue - Sanctuary

This is a thread about un-needed skills for a PvE archer. I think we've entertained your ideas long enough. There is no need to level KB, Deadly, etc just because "it has some uses"...

About DoTs...didn't even say anything about that in my post before but since you insist on pushing it, let me ask you this: DO YOU THUNDERBALL IN PVP?? If you don't Thunderball then you're a damn hypocrite. Get some DW **** in this thread and have them tell us how effective you are with Thunderball.

Cheesy Psy scenario:
I hit him to half with Stunning? That means he's a two shot, what's so hard about this?

Cheesy Sin scenario:
How about Channel Deadly, get Knifethrown, then get ported and slept?

Do you think your opponents are this dumb or something? Do you think Deadly actually hits hard?? If any archer skill can bypass anyone at half, then that opponent would have died 5min ago.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

The difference, OPKossy, is small but important: some archers say certain skills *NEVER* have a use, while I'm saying certain skills *sometimes* have specific uses.

If we are to believe certain nArrowminded archers, they'll tell you 'so and so skill has no uses, don't learn it'. Thats just patently not true. While some skills won't get used frequently, that does not mean those skills are useless in all situations.

How will you, as an archer, know about a skill that would be *perfect* for a certain situation, if you followed blindly the advice of some faceless archer on the forums, and never even learned the skill? Simple, you won't.

I've always believed and still do so that nearly every skill in your arsenal has one or more specific situations in which it shines. I'm not a person who distinguishes much between pvp and pve, so perhaps I strayed from the *intent* of the OP's question. However, some others before me had brought up some pvp-relevant skills, so I gave my comments for those skills from pvp as well as pve perspective.

Everybody is free to use the skills they want to use. What I severely dislike is the ignorance among archers, spread by certain individuals who repeatedly tell new archers to avoid X, Y, Z skills, or mock any archer who tries to show novel uses for those skills. Deplorable! Who are you to stifle the creativity of other archers in experimenting with all of their skills by arrogantly claiming 'there are no uses for these skills'?! How could you, the person who doesn't use the skill or even have it learned, be able to correctly say that in all situations the skill has no use?

@ Quilue, have you ever been hit by a full deity-stone archer? Scariest thing about that is that, unlike most archers they have the chance to bypass charm sometimes (pretty rare thing for me in general). The difference is easy to appreciate: anybody dpsing me, I'll have several seconds to react, even if the dps is very fast and strong. But when you cross into charm-bypass sort of dmg, there's just no reacting to it. You get hit, and you die: charm doesn't tick.

Now if you consider arcanes in general, and psychics in particular (hitting them has very high chance of sealing you, plus they have low base physical defense), then I still maintain that a hard-hitting skill like Deadly Shot has certain uses for an archer.

I'll agree that in pve, most skills, including arrow inferno, whisper shot, serrated/poison arrow, and deadly arrow don't really have uses, since mobs don't have charms, and really all you care about is dps. PvP is a different beast though, where you need to contend with charms and people who are (sometimes) smarter than the mobs. Anyways, whether I was on topic, I still don't think my pvp assessment of those skills is incorrect: not frequently used, but with certain specific situations in which they do well.

---

TL;DR Don't tell new archers what skills they shouldn't learn. You should learn them all. Then, the archer him/herself can decide which skills to use after experimenting with them in different situations and getting ADVICE (not orders, threats, or taunts) from other players.

---

Edit: I use thunderball ALL THE TIME. The dot ticks do full dmg through seal of gods, allowing me to get target's hp near half. I thunderball right before I plan on ticking target's charm; the dot damage over 9 seconds is anywhere from 2-6k extra dmg, depending on the person's magic defense.

video of me 1vs1 server's best-geared archer, using thunderball nearly every single seal of gods

Edit 2: In case you hadn't heard, dots ignore defense levels. That means they actually do ok-ish damage now, and when trying to dps faster than a charm tick, they can assist you. Psychics, wizards, clerics, mystics, venos, and to a limited extent archers as well can all utilize this basic tactic for beating charm ticks.

Quilue - Sanctuary

The point of this whole thread is what skills the opening poster can skimp on as a PvE archer, obviously if he wanted every skill maxed he wouldn't have posted. It's a worse lie to tell him "you need every skill maxed."

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Ah don't go playing that card now, lol. Threads deviate from their original opening post all the time, and it had already done so before I put my 2 cents in.

If you really want to know what skills you need as an archer in pve? Lightning strike, and... normal attacks. At its most basic, thats all you need as an archer. Lightning to kill immune to physical stuff. Auto attacks to kill everything else. Is that what we should tell archers though? All they really need is auto attacks? Save a few million coins to be as cheap as possible?

Nonsense! Even for an archer who never points their weapon at another players, we'd still recommend stunning arrow, quickshot, sharpentooth, lightning strike, thunder shock, wingspan, barrage of arrows... blazing arrow, wings of protection, bow mastery, and more.

For an archer who might, or will, engage in pvp of some sort, the answer is really simpler: get everything. Don't let others opinions prevent you from experimenting. You can prioritize, sure, if you are on a budget, but at the end of the day, you really should have them all learned.

Quilue - Sanctuary

That is a horrible archer, are all DW archers this bad? Tell me, at which moment in that video could he have used Deadly Shot to any effect if he was Sage? No wonder you seem to think archers need Sage Deadly when in melee range.

Everyone take a look at that video! b:laugh
I know it must have been hard for you because he got that purge off right at the start...but man! So this is why you think all Demons are auto derps.

What part of getting the 3s channeling skill interrupted do you not understand though?

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is a horrible archer, are all DW archers this bad? Tell me, at which moment in that video could he have used Deadly Shot to any effect if he was Sage? No wonder you seem to think archers need Sage Deadly when in melee range.

Everyone take a look at that video! b:laugh

What part of getting the 3s channeling skill interrupted do you not understand though?

Deadly shot against clerics? Sage ones? Your options are more limited. I'm sage and I spam vanguard spirit against archers, my physical defense is vastly higher than a psychics, so unpurged charm bypasses are going to be rarer. Furthermore, auto attacking me won't seal you, so getting in more low dmg hits isn't necessarily a bad thing; even if I get some purify procs, you might still get a purge off. Fighting a psychic you'll get sealed long before getting purges in most cases, if you try too many hits without will surge in.

The platform was glitched, if you teleport on that platform when immobilized you can't do anything till immobilize runs out. I admit to inadvertently abusing that during the fight, though I actually wasn't aware of this glitch at the time: I thought he just had some weird lag. Watching the video it became obvious though.

Most archers only last a fraction of the time this guy does against me, so all things considered he did alright.

Actually, I did just think of a possible situation against any class. If an archer used ataraxia, they could consider using deadly shot to do the most dmg possible before being pulled from stealth from their attack. Take aim would probably trump that a bit, but without a +12 archer I can't test that. A

Also, as another person first mentioned, zooming thunder powder apoth makes deadly shot quite feasible. Basic combo could go

zooming thunder powder (6 seconds to use a bunch of those 'useless' skills with long channeling time) >
blood vow >
arrow inferno (lot of arcanes charms tick right about here) >
deadly shot (if last hit didn't tick charm, this one has a great chance at bypassing charm, especially if you throw extreme poison at them)
thunder shock >
thunderous blast >
lightning strike.

Nice to finish with 3 metals, in case target uses expel, or plume shell.

Sage can introduce stormrage eagleon instead of arrow inferno for a deadlier, slightly more chi-heavy combo.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I think he did horrible considering the gear, if by "most archers" you meant people with the same gear but they somehow would die faster, they must be so bad!

In response to your previous post, we recommended most skills that would be useful with PvE activities. STA, BV are good for bosses, for example. Wing skills are good for melee mobs, especially OVS farming. Barrage, TBlast, are good for Delta, Warsong, etc. I even didn't say anything when you suggested maxed Stormrage, because if you want to cast it on bosses it slows them down whereas most slows wouldn't.

Stunning, Aim Low are good for instances as well, to prevent certain mobs from getting to your squad while you focus fire. This is especially useful for AOE mobs.

With most PvE activities in full consideration, can't say maxed KB does you any good, because Knockback range doesn't increase with levels. Conventional wisdom always dictates that you save mana with grinding mobs, so you leave it at level 1. Deadly is also completely optional. Simply doesn't have much of a place in PvE.

Also, STA from stealth will likely do more damage than Deadly, and if the target is 1 shot then Take Aim is more damage. Like I said, only place it has is Zooming Thunder combo.

edit: how come when you say "other person mentioned" it's been me? Twice now.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think he did horrible considering the gear, if by "most archers" you meant people with the same gear but they somehow would die faster, they must be so bad!

In response to your previous post, we recommended most skills that would be useful with PvE activities. STA, BV are good for bosses, for example. Wing skills are good for melee mobs, especially OVS farming. Barrage, TBlast, are good for Delta, Warsong, etc. I even didn't say anything when you suggested maxed Stormrage, because if you want to cast it on bosses it slows them down whereas most slows wouldn't.

Stunning, Aim Low are good for instances as well, to prevent certain mobs from getting to your squad while you focus fire. This is especially useful for AOE mobs.

With most PvE activities in full consideration, can't say maxed KB does you any good, because Knockback range doesn't increase with levels. Conventional wisdom always dictates that you save mana with grinding mobs, so you leave it at level 1. Deadly is also completely optional. Simply doesn't have much of a place in PvE.

The archer knows his gear very well, which is why he can survive so long. I imagine most archers would panic and use their genie too soon, taking unnecessary risks that lead to their death. I know another archer of that exact type. He tries to be really unpredictable, and I learned some things from this guy I'd never seen other archers do before. But the stuff he does is so risky, when it fails (and it fails once I learn what to expect), then the fights do end sooner, yeah. An archer with the tankiness of the one shown in the video doesn't need to take risks. He can kill me just fine with a purge at just the right time and a bit of crit luck. Refer to the v2 and v1 versions of my fights against the same archer. His tactics are ... maybe boring for you? but his style is quite effective. Super effective in TW, and reliable and safe in pvp as well.

Edit: I do agree about the sharpen tooth arrow doing more effective damage... as long as that debuff isn't already on target, which in most cases it probably won't be, though on that note, sharpen tooth is a very underutilized skill in pvp as well! Yeah, sharpen tooth > deadly shot in that case then.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Just because someone else went off-topic before, doesn't mean you 2 have to keep writing freaking essays and novels about what and what not to use in a PvP situation.

It's not being asked for, if you want to talk about that, start a different thread or take it to pm's.

Eventually in the end, when you have the spirit and coins for it, you might as well level your skills. With the bosses / mobs getting the anti-aps/melee buff more and more, you'll need the skills. Unless regular attacks from archers don't get the penalty from that buff...

Best thing to do is to gradually level skills you like to use / find effective, every skill has some use in some situation. And everyone on the forums will tell you something else about what to learn and what not.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Regular attacks from archers do not get penalty from that buff. Only melee auto attacks.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Regular attacks from archers do not get penalty from that buff. Only melee auto attacks.

This is true. I was using my bow a lot on the sin earlier today in the new instance. Practically everything in that instance is anti-aps, CoA and Tiger Event too. Well, I guess I'll be getting more of a workout from cleric in these instances, lol.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of the best discussions I've ever had were ones that veered off topic b:dirty

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Regular attacks from archers do not get penalty from that buff. Only melee auto attacks.

I see, then I guess for most PvE situation leveling skills are still pointless at end game, at least for regular mobs.

I'd say level your skills that debuff (mainly for squad play purposes, mobs on the world map are... well, easily killable even without skills).

Level skills that buff yourself, winged shell seems pointless but it CAN help when in a pinch, it does reduce (some) damage in the end.
Quickshot to sage for the critrate increase, since it's pretty much spamable anyway.

Either way, previous advice still stands, just play around using your skills in PvE, see what you like and see what you barely use, then you'll know what to level first and what could be left behind.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The archer knows his gear very well, which is why he can survive so long. I imagine most archers would panic and use their genie too soon, taking unnecessary risks that lead to their death. I know another archer of that exact type. He tries to be really unpredictable, and I learned some things from this guy I'd never seen other archers do before. But the stuff he does is so risky, when it fails (and it fails once I learn what to expect), then the fights do end sooner, yeah. An archer with the tankiness of the one shown in the video doesn't need to take risks. He can kill me just fine with a purge at just the right time and a bit of crit luck. Refer to the v2 and v1 versions of my fights against the same archer. His tactics are ... maybe boring for you? but his style is quite effective. Super effective in TW, and reliable and safe in pvp as well.

Edit: I do agree about the sharpen tooth arrow doing more effective damage... as long as that debuff isn't already on target, which in most cases it probably won't be, though on that note, sharpen tooth is a very underutilized skill in pvp as well! Yeah, sharpen tooth > deadly shot in that case then.

He was just flatout terrible the 5mins I could watch that epeen stroking. Purge QS and you almost dropped instantly. He cant kite worth anything, he doesnt STA and I saw him use WoG once till I couldnt take it any longer. If that is what you consider good archer then it does make sense you would assume sage deadly/whatever to be good. Not to forget whole setup is flawed, in real PvP you dont see the archer coming. As for TW? Yes, it works, he will have amps/stuns/debuffs from other people and just QS ->auto will be quite effective due decked out gear. Doesnt still quite explain the lack of WoG though.