Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

What class do you play that you are having so much trouble with tidal? maybe we can help

I was only counting stuns/sleeps/seals and immobilizations in my last list, please dont make me log my bm and actually count how many other CCs the class has either way sins dont have the most.

Too many butt hurt people keep saying we do. It's quite sad.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · September 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you are not endgame Nsoob b:avoid

GG NW gears?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · October 2013

Have read through most comments and surprisingly for pwi forums, it's actually almost an intelligent conversation, although biased. I really have no enmity for Tidal Protection. My biggest complaint is the length it's active and here is why.

I'll be speaking as a melee user. Against a sin that uses Focused Mind I might land a stun, then either have a chain of misses or 1 damage meaning there was almost no gain. If I do hit him, as a melee, it's often 1/3 or 1/2 my hits. Skill spamming that's about 1 hit every 4 seconds. So the chance of me chaining enough large attacks to kill him or charm bipass is pretty small. Not to mention a large number of my misses would have been crits or zerks. My BM has 200/209 dex (depending on gear setup) and 2x accuracy rings.

Now, against a Tidal protection sin I'm going to have a rough time controlling him but an easier time landing attacks. This obviously changes my strategy. Am I going to waste 2 sparks on an HF that has a 66% to be negated and about a 33% chance of missing entirely? Probably not. I will waste 1 spark on a Drake's Bash because it is one of my hardest hitting attacks and if it stun's for 7.5 seconds its gg sin and even if it doesn't stun it still will hurt a sin and hopefully zerk/crit. I always have to laugh when a sin that lives in TP (literally, never fights without it on and if it's in cd will kite for 30 seconds) gets killed by straight up dding on them because they failed to control me as I failed to control them. Like I said, its just different strategies when fighting a sage TP sin and is more direct dd/avoid damage route.

The thing I want to argue and draw similarities most is the QQ against Purify Proc and the QQ against Tidal protection. TP is a 66% chance to evade status effects, and on top of that most melee's will miss their attacks about 33% of the time. So of the 66% attacks we're landing with status effects, 66% of those are being negated (except for the obvious RotP which never "misses"). This means we have an 22% chance of actually landing a status effect. This is much higher than the 12-15% chance of Purify Proc which is a less complete version of TP for a few reasons. First, the lower percent, almost half. Second, Purify Proc allows many status effects to land for at least a few seconds. Purify proc then gives a buff against only movement debuffs. Third, Purify Proc is an r9t3 only thing (or r8r at a 5-8% proc rate).

So with all the QQ against how OP Purify Proc is, especially from sins, I find it hard to not laugh that they think their own skill is not too OP.

Here would be my suggestion for a nerf: 45 second buff, 45 second cd. This is half the time. As I said before most sage sins literally live in TP and will either stealth or HP away when its in cd causing 30 second stalls in pk. I think if it's active time was reduced they'd be forced to fight some of the time without it, but still have the full advantage of its OPness for 45 seconds. The really good sage sins also rotate their chi skills so they literally are sage sparked (huge hits and 25% dmg reduction) for about 55 seconds at a time (trip spark, engage, IH, triple spark, RDS/Tackling, triple spark, kite away). This currently fits too well with the 60 seconds->30 second breaks they do. If TP had a time nerf then after 45 seconds they'd be forced to offset being both triple sparked and TP all the time.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have read through most comments and surprisingly for pwi forums, it's actually almost an intelligent conversation, although biased. I really have no enmity for Tidal Protection. My biggest complaint is the length it's active and here is why.

I'll be speaking as a melee user. Against a sin that uses Focused Mind I might land a stun, then either have a chain of misses or 1 damage meaning there was almost no gain. If I do hit him, as a melee, it's often 1/3 or 1/2 my hits. Skill spamming that's about 1 hit every 4 seconds. So the chance of me chaining enough large attacks to kill him or charm bipass is pretty small. Not to mention a large number of my misses would have been crits or zerks. My BM has 200/209 dex (depending on gear setup) and 2x accuracy rings.

Now, against a Tidal protection sin I'm going to have a rough time controlling him but an easier time landing attacks. This obviously changes my strategy. Am I going to waste 2 sparks on an HF that has a 66% to be negated and about a 33% chance of missing entirely? Probably not. I will waste 1 spark on a Drake's Bash because it is one of my hardest hitting attacks and if it stun's for 7.5 seconds its gg sin and even if it doesn't stun it still will hurt a sin and hopefully zerk/crit. I always have to laugh when a sin that lives in TP (literally, never fights without it on and if it's in cd will kite for 30 seconds) gets killed by straight up dding on them because they failed to control me as I failed to control them. Like I said, its just different strategies when fighting a sage TP sin and is more direct dd/avoid damage route.

The thing I want to argue and draw similarities most is the QQ against Purify Proc and the QQ against Tidal protection. TP is a 66% chance to evade status effects, and on top of that most melee's will miss their attacks about 33% of the time. So of the 66% attacks we're landing with status effects, 66% of those are being negated (except for the obvious RotP which never "misses"). This means we have an 22% chance of actually landing a status effect. This is much higher than the 12-15% chance of Purify Proc which is a less complete version of TP for a few reasons. First, the lower percent, almost half. Second, Purify Proc allows many status effects to land for at least a few seconds. Purify proc then gives a buff against only movement debuffs. Third, Purify Proc is an r9t3 only thing (or r8r at a 5-8% proc rate).

So with all the QQ against how OP Purify Proc is, especially from sins, I find it hard to not laugh that they think their own skill is not too OP.

Here would be my suggestion for a nerf: 45 second buff, 45 second cd. This is half the time. As I said before most sage sins literally live in TP and will either stealth or HP away when its in cd causing 30 second stalls in pk. I think if it's active time was reduced they'd be forced to fight some of the time without it, but still have the full advantage of its OPness for 45 seconds. The really good sage sins also rotate their chi skills so they literally are sage sparked (huge hits and 25% dmg reduction) for about 55 seconds at a time (trip spark, engage, IH, triple spark, RDS/Tackling, triple spark, kite away). This currently fits too well with the 60 seconds->30 second breaks they do. If TP had a time nerf then after 45 seconds they'd be forced to offset being both triple sparked and TP all the time.

kinda have to agree sadly. if purify is op then sage tidal is the same. what makes it powerful is that you cant counter it

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have read through most comments and surprisingly for pwi forums, it's actually almost an intelligent conversation, although biased. I really have no enmity for Tidal Protection. My biggest complaint is the length it's active and here is why.

I'll be speaking as a melee user. Against a sin that uses Focused Mind I might land a stun, then either have a chain of misses or 1 damage meaning there was almost no gain. If I do hit him, as a melee, it's often 1/3 or 1/2 my hits. Skill spamming that's about 1 hit every 4 seconds. So the chance of me chaining enough large attacks to kill him or charm bipass is pretty small. Not to mention a large number of my misses would have been crits or zerks. My BM has 200/209 dex (depending on gear setup) and 2x accuracy rings.

Now, against a Tidal protection sin I'm going to have a rough time controlling him but an easier time landing attacks. This obviously changes my strategy. Am I going to waste 2 sparks on an HF that has a 66% to be negated and about a 33% chance of missing entirely? Probably not. I will waste 1 spark on a Drake's Bash because it is one of my hardest hitting attacks and if it stun's for 7.5 seconds its gg sin and even if it doesn't stun it still will hurt a sin and hopefully zerk/crit. I always have to laugh when a sin that lives in TP (literally, never fights without it on and if it's in cd will kite for 30 seconds) gets killed by straight up dding on them because they failed to control me as I failed to control them. Like I said, its just different strategies when fighting a sage TP sin and is more direct dd/avoid damage route.

The thing I want to argue and draw similarities most is the QQ against Purify Proc and the QQ against Tidal protection. TP is a 66% chance to evade status effects, and on top of that most melee's will miss their attacks about 33% of the time. So of the 66% attacks we're landing with status effects, 66% of those are being negated (except for the obvious RotP which never "misses"). This means we have an 22% chance of actually landing a status effect. This is much higher than the 12-15% chance of Purify Proc which is a less complete version of TP for a few reasons. First, the lower percent, almost half. Second, Purify Proc allows many status effects to land for at least a few seconds. Purify proc then gives a buff against only movement debuffs. Third, Purify Proc is an r9t3 only thing (or r8r at a 5-8% proc rate).

So with all the QQ against how OP Purify Proc is, especially from sins, I find it hard to not laugh that they think their own skill is not too OP.

Here would be my suggestion for a nerf: 45 second buff, 45 second cd. This is half the time. As I said before most sage sins literally live in TP and will either stealth or HP away when its in cd causing 30 second stalls in pk. I think if it's active time was reduced they'd be forced to fight some of the time without it, but still have the full advantage of its OPness for 45 seconds. The really good sage sins also rotate their chi skills so they literally are sage sparked (huge hits and 25% dmg reduction) for about 55 seconds at a time (trip spark, engage, IH, triple spark, RDS/Tackling, triple spark, kite away). This currently fits too well with the 60 seconds->30 second breaks they do. If TP had a time nerf then after 45 seconds they'd be forced to offset being both triple sparked and TP all the time.

Actually I would not mind this so much. But I will say it's going to affect sins with lesser gear than even I, way more. I'm a sin that uses tidal, but I dont rely on it, so I have 1 anti-stun and ToP on my genie in case it fails. But I wonder, would you apply the nerf to only sage tidal, both culti tidals, or tidal in general?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · October 2013

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

kinda have to agree sadly. if purify is op then sage tidal is the same. what makes it powerful is that you cant counter it

You cant counter purify as well, it also removes all debuffs when it activates (or so I have been told).

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · October 2013

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You cant counter purify as well, it also removes all debuffs when it activates (or so I have been told).

Disarm debuff from BMs and Seekers can prevent purify and the resultant anti stun/speed buff can be purged.
I don't know of anything similar for sage TP. It is both unpurgeable and blocks purge.

Quilue - Sanctuary · October 2013

How can TP sins not control the opponent though...you have much less chance of stunning them than they have of stunning you. I never understand this argument that you can damage a TP sin to death, because only **** sins would let you damage them willingly. It's not like their control skills suddenly stop working with TP on or something.

Good sins will sleep you before your roar finishes channel, for example.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

I am writing under the assumption that the request for Tidal nerf is due to the advantage given to sin in a 1v1 scenario. If you are not here seeking for information regarding 1v1s, then please disregard this post.

If we define Counters as an item or skill that renders another item or skill useless or less effective, then I would argue that there are a few major differences between Tidal and Purify that makes Purify stronger than Tidal.

First, let's talk about countering sins.

Tidal can be countered by any class retroactively. That is, one can try to land minor debuffs (Undine strike for wizard, roar for BM, try to proc SoS for Psychics, etc.) on to a sin with tidal protection under the fact that it will eventually work. Thus, for every debuff, the process becomes more of:

If debuffed then 
   use offensive combo A
else 
   use defensive maneuver B

So effectively, you countered it when you realize that the debuff worked.

Certain classes are more equipped to fight sins than others of course, with archers being the most disadvantaged (but that's like saying arcanes kill barbs easier than bms, and is not very significant), but generally, even with only a 1 in 3 chance of succeeding, you will still be able to land at least 1 debuff within a tidal cycle. For example, a BM can roar a sin 4 times in 1 minute (not including various other stuns they can try), which has a good chance of at least 1 landing.

Everytime you do manage to land a debuff on a sin, you gain an advantage over them because behind that Tidal Protection, they are still using the weakest armor in the game - LA. And potentially, because of that debuff you landed, you can force them to exert their genie or apoth before tidal even wears off. By doing so, they are even less likely than before to survive once tidal do wear off.

So in effect, fighting a sin involves a decent amount of probabilities. That is, you must survive long enough to get multiple debuffs onto tidal so that they waste all their resources before tidal wears off. While from the sin's perspective, their goal is to prevent you from landing multiple debuffs onto them, while attacking you long enough to either get a charm bypass or chain zerk crits.

While it is true that Sage Tidal puts the odds in the sin's favor (33/66 as opposed to 50/50), that isn't to say that this strategy does not work. It may seem counter-intuitive to most people to try and land debuffs when the odds are against them, but yet if you do not, you will never be able to exert enough damage to kill them in the 30 seconds it takes while tidal is off. The difference with End Game PvP compared to Early Game PvP is that End game PvP isn't just a test of your reaction time. Rather, there are several psychological factors involved as well, many of which seem counter-intuitive compared to early game PvP.

The assumption here is of course, that your gear is on par with an Assassin (and endgame). If your gear is on par with an Assassin, you should find that in a straight out DD match with no control skills, you will out damage the assassin most of the time due to either having superior defense or having less luck based damage, or both. Additionally, you should also find that you have enough defense that an Assassin cannot randomly kill you without some sort of setup, either by getting you to half HP and charm bypassing, or amping their damage high enough to out DPS your charm.

That's right. An Assassin cannot actually kill you just by using control skills, if your gears are equal and endgame. Therefore, in order for them to kill you, they MUST give you a chance to attack them back. During this time, you can easily kill them faster than they kill you. This is why attempting to debuff is so important.

Should any piece of your gear be weaker however, you will face severe disadvantage. Considering that a skilled Assassin can take on non-Assassins with better geared than them, I cannot offer any strategy that will allow a non-assassin to take on an Assassin with better gears than them.

I hope that this piece of knowledge helped someone to counter sins.

Now on the other hand, we have Purify Proc. While purify proc can be countered proactively, it can only be done so by two classes in mass pvp scenario. Most people will agree that Assassins are not their biggest threat in mass pvp, so it is safe to say that we do not need to go indepth about purify proc vs tidal in mass pvp. (It would only strength the need for tidal, considering that sins must go melee like BMs, but are more squishy and cannot AOE stun)

Blade Hurl vs Purify Proc in 1 v 1 is almost non-factor. There are no arcanes that will both die in 3 seconds without their weapon, but will survive longer than 3 seconds with their weapon. (unless they are literally procing purify every other hit)

Seekers are somewhat better off against purify proc because they are a bypass based class. That is, they have the ability to finish off arcanes by charm bypass, greatly reducing the number of hits needed to kill an arcane, and greatly reducing the chance that purify will activate. Additionally, they do not suffer any significant disadvantage from purify actually procing, since they have barely any control skills, and their most notorious combo (Sac Slash > Quid Pro Quo) has no chance of procing purify. That isn't to say however, that seekers are OP, but rather, that purify isn't a huge problem to them.

While you may argue that you can counter Purify Proc in a similar fashion to tidal, that is, stun someone and DD, then modify depending on whether it procs or not, there is one major problem to it. Purify proc has no cooldown. Thus, Purify Proc is actually way more random than the 33/66 chance offered by tidal. With tidal, there is a distinct cycle of trying your luck, then going all out. With purify proc, it is almost entirely luck based. You could waste an arcane's genie in the first few seconds, and then have a chain of purifies save them until their genie charges up. I would argue that because of this, Purify is actually superior to Tidal in most of the cases. Not only do you have the fact that arcanes can tank better than sins, but you also give them something similar to tidal, but is completely luck based. That is, there is nothing you can do to make Purify Proc less effective, or useless, while you can always decrease the efficiency of Tidal by trying your luck!

While I would agree that Purify Proc does somewhat make Arcanes on par with sins in 1v1, I disagree that it is the ONLY way to make arcanes on par with sins in 1v1. For reasons that have been mentioned again and again in other threads, purify proc is way superior than tidal in mass pk, and vs many non-sin classes.

On the other hand, this information that I have here may be outdated. It was written before the age of Deities and NW reforged gears. Given a full deities sin with nw gear, I may actually agree that Sage Tidal is overpowered. But for pre-NW eras (which anyone can experience themselves), which is what the OP and this post was written for, this information is valid.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · October 2013

Quite a bit to respond to, actually.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never understand this argument that you can damage a TP sin to death, because only **** sins would let you damage them willingly. It's not like their control skills suddenly stop working with TP on or something.

Good sins will sleep you before your roar finishes channel, for example.

Just like any class you have to avoid the control skills anyways. As a bm I'd run up and people expect me to first RotP. Instead, I run up and engage and leap back as a dph sin channels sleep. Or as a barb I usually open with an Alacrity to cancel my opponents first attack. Most psychics will wait till you engage to Psychic Will, obviously. It's a game of do you try to counter or control first? My main complaint about pwi pvp is its repetitive and often just chance of did you predict your opponents move successfully or not?

Anyways, any sage TP sin is going to be less worried about status effects and less likely to try to counter an effect that probably wont land. They'll be much more offensive while its active because they have 60 seconds to end a fight. Many of the skills I spam in an attempt to control hit reasonably hard, like Drake's Bash, Smack, Blade Hurl (fine, I'll engage in melee with a sin that doesn't have a weapon), Bolt, Reckless Rush, and Flame Tsunami. Spam enough of them (including OI on the genie) and something is bound to work eventually or you've dd'd them to death. Btw, Smack, Bolt, Reckless Rush, Blade Hurl, OI, and Flame Tsunami are all ranged skills to use prior to engagement before a sin can control you. Use them for the dph, smile if they actually control.

Sidenote: I think archer v archer and sin v everyone are the quickest matchups of any. Another reason I suggested nerfing TP time and not effectiveness might be a solution. Most sin fights end in under 30 seconds because sins have awesome dd but are reasonably squishy (the exception being the 25k sins with 15k+ defenses).

One of many advantages Purify Proc has over TP is the holy path debuff. Auto-kite and therefore hard control. With stealth pots and genie setups nowadays its easier for an arcane to get away than a sin.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

How can TP sins not control the opponent though...you have much less chance of stunning them than they have of stunning you. I never understand this argument that you can damage a TP sin to death, because only **** sins would let you damage them willingly. It's not like their control skills suddenly stop working with TP on or something.

Good sins will sleep you before your roar finishes channel, for example.

Most good BM's will engage a sin with an anti-stun anyway, then RotP. Stunning a BM isn't as devastating as stunning a sin. BM's have the passive resistances and HP to keep them alive during the duration of a stun, where as sins dont unless they out gear you, or blow genie CD's. Stun a sin through Tidal and you can just DD. A sin would have to amp+spark to kill a bm with similar gear (weps and armors on par with each other) over a stun of the same length. Also roar tends to be cast at a range like Deep Sting, and idk about this, but roar seems to channel faster.

Unholly - Morai · October 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here would be my suggestion for a nerf: 45 second buff, 45 second cd. This is half the time. As I said before most sage sins literally live in TP and will either stealth or HP away when its in cd causing 30 second stalls in pk. I think if it's active time was reduced they'd be forced to fight some of the time without it, but still have the full advantage of its OPness for 45 seconds. The really good sage sins also rotate their chi skills so they literally are sage sparked (huge hits and 25% dmg reduction) for about 55 seconds at a time (trip spark, engage, IH, triple spark, RDS/Tackling, triple spark, kite away). This currently fits too well with the 60 seconds->30 second breaks they do. If TP had a time nerf then after 45 seconds they'd be forced to offset being both triple sparked and TP all the time.

Maybe I didnt understand your post but I dont think this would change the game play of sins who only Tidal+ Spark engage that much as you said in following posts most sin fights end in 30 seconds. So sins who play like that would just spark herp derp on you during tidal and at 40 seconds ask, did i win? No = Use remaining chi on maze and kite away wait for tidal CD. Rinse and repeat.

Random idea (might be awful) Give triple spark a cool down say maybe 30 seconds. It would only really affect assassins who have a lot of chi build (All other classes have it on a kind of CD due to it needing the spark resource). This would cut down on spark spam and add a bit more skill to when the sin should be using the ability either offensively or defensively. I dont know... Ideas D;

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Im seeing alot of the "sins cant kill ha that easily" here. And I call bs. A full g16 BM have around 20k-22k p.def and at least 15 def levels. When I as a HA veno can be zerk critted out of stealth for 14k, having 32k p.def, it seems unlikely that a bm woukd stand a much bigger chance. With nerfed bramble, skill use makes it too easy to bypass that defence (wich is the only real defense buff venos have) while surviving this, my purge to maybe helpe kill this sin is blocked 2/3 times. When a sin can do 14k to that armor from stealth, and then have access to EP/mire while keeping you in place with CC skill to get the 3-6 skills to kill you off, its just chance if ill live or not. If the purge works I have a decent chance. Sometimes I even get a chance to put a different skill in too, like fossilized curse. But all too often I see my purge blocked, and then the curse effect blocked as well.

And if you look at it; that is what will happen in the majority of the cases. In most of the times, none of my debuffs will pass thru sage tidal, meaning my survival is more based on chance than skill

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Im seeing alot of the "sins cant kill ha that easily" here. And I call bs. A full g16 BM have around 20k-22k p.def and at least 15 def levels. When I as a HA veno can be zerk critted out of stealth for 14k, having 32k p.def, it seems unlikely that a bm woukd stand a much bigger chance. With nerfed bramble, skill use makes it too easy to bypass that defence (wich is the only real defense buff venos have) while surviving this, my purge to maybe helpe kill this sin is blocked 2/3 times. When a sin can do 14k to that armor from stealth, and then have access to EP/mire while keeping you in place with CC skill to get the 3-6 skills to kill you off, its just chance if ill live or not. If the purge works I have a decent chance. Sometimes I even get a chance to put a different skill in too, like fossilized curse. But all too often I see my purge blocked, and then the curse effect blocked as well.

And if you look at it; that is what will happen in the majority of the cases. In most of the times, none of my debuffs will pass thru sage tidal, meaning my survival is more based on chance than skill

I addressed your concerns in my earlier post. Keep in mind however, that I do not consider G16 or 15 def levels to be end game.

I suppose I should write that in a separate thread, but I think this will suffice.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · October 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

... You realize how absolutely wrong you are, and how stupid that sounds right? That's like saying damage doesn't work on a sin in focused mind. You can still get debuffs through, it's just a chance to be evaded. However if people have the same mindset as you and don't even try then that's just a bonus for the sins who don't have to worry about defense at all.

And you still haven't shown what tidal has to do with... you know... dealing damage? Pretty sure if I run out of safe zone on a sin in TT99+5 tidal is not gonna stop the random R9 3rd cast +10 wiz from 1-shotting me with a 15k gush crit.

Zooming Thunder Potions. Your argument is invalid. And this is without taking into account other ways to reduce channeling time.

And having a CHANCE to evade negative status ailments does what exactly for a sin that gets hit by a crit from a caster that kills them or gets ganked by 5 people the instant s/he leaves stealth and dies to focus fire and DAMAGE even without the need of the debuffs... though with the usual ganks sins get the instant they leave stealth some debuffs can and will get through unless people are too stupid to even try).

Yep. The sin can waste his spark and genie so that their opponent can laugh and (insert one of many counters or plain kiting here) while the opponent is STILL quite capable of dealing high damage to the sin. Oh and while we're on that subject, DPH has always been what casters are stronger at. The sin needs to debuff or get lucky more than the caster does because of trying to compete while having a lower base damage to begin with. And when tidal gets bypassed (any smart player can and will try to debuff even during tidal and when it happens sin is as screwed as anyone else who gets debuffed) what then?

From your posts, you sound like someone who has never played a sin and doesn't have the skills to fight one in endgame PvP. The fact of the matter is all the pros already know that, while tidal is a powerful buff, it is by no means this sort of ultimate defense that makes a sin unkillable. People such as yourself who claim it is, on the other hand, need to get more experience and skill. Or, better yet, play a sage sin for yourself, go seek out opponents of a similar gear level, and see the weaknesses and strengths of the skill for yourself.

Mod basically just called someone stupid. Ban for a week.

No really. Someone ban Kossy. I got banned for the exact same thing. I demand Justice!

(teehee, demanding Justice is funny if you know me)

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide · October 2013

Detection Pot?... -Zsw/tsyfall (tsyfall in response to Zanryu)

...Yeah no. Justice answered this properly and the one defense I saw was 'yeah but in a 5v1 scenario you can each hit it after 30 seconds. You JUST told us this was about a 1v1 scenario. And you've got way more stealth options than one stealth pot is seriously going to be able to cover. While it is not the point of this thread, and I get that, stop making this out to be like everything people say is wrong because it does not depreciate sins and make the players of them look godly when they win.

Nerfing tidal basically says: Assassins are only balanced without tidal. -tsyfall

-tsyfall

No. Nerfing tidal says it is not balanced the way it's currently implemented. You can say whatever you want here but this is the truth. Each time someone in this thread called for a nerf, or against anything you said really, with any reasonable argument, they were NOT pushing to get it taken away entirely. No one ever said do it without tidal completely. Stop acting like it. Zanryu even made sure to cover his *** by saying ' A slight nerf to Demon and Sage Tidal would allow people to have a decent chance at landing debuffs while still allowing the sin extremely good resistance to it.' so people couldn't get their **** twisted and say things like 'as good as I am I can't do it without tidal'. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in there can you get 'hurr durr do it without tidal completely!' out of it. Stop acting like it.

Deaden Nerves is completely different. If it's ticked, then you have to wait for the rest of the cooldown to get it up again. Tidal stays up no matter how many times it works/fails.

-tsyfall

Once you cast the skill, something else has to proc it for an instant cast. This is the very definition of a passive skill. I don't care if it's different than the other kinds. You're still the only freaking class I have to kill twice.

However, I just want to point out, that the chance to stun (or whatever) through tidal isn't 33% if the attack doesn't have a 100% chance of the effect.
So if whatever you're trying to stun / freeze / etc. with only procs 33% of the time on it's own, then adding that to tidal diminishes that chance further.

-riverwell

This is a very wonderful thing to point out, in my opinion, as you all seem to think 33% chance of hitting is somehow always 33% chance of hitting, which it very obviously isn't given the amount of skills that are % based chance to proc after casting. Conveniently, I do not see it answered by tsyfall or scrabble, the two ring leaders to this whole thread, by the looks of it

(break thread. page 6 a mod says someone sounds stupid. I want everyone to laugh for a minute before continuing on...Okay. Times up)

I noticed longknife calling for it to be able to be purified off somehow, and yet I hear no response to that either, given it's at least a thought and not based on 'hurr durr never have tidal' logic...which is what half of your (zsw) responses are to. PS. Don't make me actually count how many times that's all you responded to or with on a page, as I honestly don't wanna, and wouldn't care anyway. The damage has been done, so to speak.

Then all the way through page 10 we have this weird side argument on how 5% chance puri proc is somehow more OP than a 66% chance pro-active chance to avoid every kind of de-buff entirely on a class that has the ability to effectively kite away pretty much at will, and lock you when they come back.

You can think what you want about the class. It's obvious by your responses you refuse to even entertain the idea of trying to see another side of the story, but don't feed everyone this B.S. and pretend you're not throwing half-assed propaganda around.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Don't 1v1 a sin that abuse stealth, simple as that. Not worth your time. That has nothing to do with tidal though. Remove stealth, whatever. Tidal is a different story.

I already offered a solution to counter sins with tidal, and that is from the perspective of someone who have 1. beat better geared non-sins as a sin; 2. beat better geared sin as a sin; and 3. beat equal geared sin as a non-sin WITHOUT purify proc.

Whether you wish to utilize my knowledge or not is up to you now, take it as you wish, but I'm already done here.

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide · October 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Don't 1v1 a sin that abuse stealth, simple as that. Not worth your time. That has nothing to do with tidal though. Remove stealth, whatever. Tidal is a different story.

I already offered a solution to counter sins with tidal, and that is from the perspective of someone who have 1. beat better geared non-sins as a sin; 2. beat better geared sin as a sin; and 3. beat equal geared sin as a non-sin WITHOUT purify proc.

Whether you wish to utilize my knowledge or not is up to you now, take it as you wish, but I'm already done here.

That's...that's all you got from that? *sigh*

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's...that's all you got from that? *sigh*

As I've said, I'm already done here. Sorry.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As I've said, I'm already done here. Sorry.

Wayne's canadian. You'll have to excuse him. I'm sorry.

****, it's spreading.

I'm sorry.

So sorry.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

I actually couldn't find any other posts, and don't feel like reading Zanryu's

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · October 2013

So much wrong here. I sense butt hurt.

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

...Yeah no. Justice answered this properly and the one defense I saw was 'yeah but in a 5v1 scenario you can each hit it after 30 seconds. You JUST told us this was about a 1v1 scenario. And you've got way more stealth options than one stealth pot is seriously going to be able to cover. While it is not the point of this thread, and I get that, stop making this out to be like everything people say is wrong because it does not depreciate sins and make the players of them look godly when they win.

All of those stealth options can still be seen with a lv31 stealth pot which drop like candy from AEU chest. As for depreciating sins, everyone tries to make it seem like all of us herp derp aps, or we only come out of stealth when tidal is up. Quite honestly its offensive to the good sins, or those of us who have a good reputation. We don't care about how you feel, or what you think. We care about the facts. Sins have a lot they have to go through to kill an opponent:

1. Melee range
2. Anti-stuns/AD/IG/Pangu
3. Passive buffs like SoV/SoR/Soul of Stunning and Silence/Bramble
4. Aoe's Flying about
5. Whether you can actually kill the person

And that's all before we even get near you. As a psy, can you honestly say you go through all those check pionts before you attempt to blast something, or you do you just cast your spell normally?

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

No. Nerfing tidal says it is not balanced the way it's currently implemented. You can say whatever you want here but this is the truth. Each time someone in this thread called for a nerf, or against anything you said really, with any reasonable argument, they were NOT pushing to get it taken away entirely. No one ever said do it without tidal completely. Stop acting like it. Zanryu even made sure to cover his *** by saying ' A slight nerf to Demon and Sage Tidal would allow people to have a decent chance at landing debuffs while still allowing the sin extremely good resistance to it.' so people couldn't get their **** twisted and say things like 'as good as I am I can't do it without tidal'. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in there can you get 'hurr durr do it without tidal completely!' out of it. Stop acting like it.

Knowing that the class is blasted as soon as they are out of stealth in most occassions (mass pvp and pk). Do you really think that 'good chance at resistance' is gonna matter much? It's sometimes the only thing to save me from 20 people chasing me accross the TW map with several stunning arrows. Imo, even purify proc wins on that seeing as it is 100% resistance to movement debuffs, AND it gives 200% speed boost. If they nerf tidal, they can at least give us a speed boost to compensate, like they compensated all the low pdef casters.

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

Once you cast the skill, something else has to proc it for an instant cast. This is the very definition of a passive skill. I don't care if it's different than the other kinds. You're still the only freaking class I have to kill twice.

Actually Barbs and Clerics have a similar skill, and both of those classes are WAAYY more tanky than a sin.

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

This is a very wonderful thing to point out, in my opinion, as you all seem to think 33% chance of hitting is somehow always 33% chance of hitting, which it very obviously isn't given the amount of skills that are % based chance to proc after casting. Conveniently, I do not see it answered by tsyfall or scrabble, the two ring leaders to this whole thread, by the looks of it

Because this excludes the spammable 100% ones right? Most of the % debuff skills have heavy damage attached to them as well. You make them sound like criminals. What did they steal from you? Your peace of mind?

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

I noticed longknife calling for it to be able to be purified off somehow, and yet I hear no response to that either, given it's at least a thought and not based on 'hurr durr never have tidal' logic...which is what half of your (zsw) responses are to. PS. Don't make me actually count how many times that's all you responded to or with on a page, as I honestly don't wanna, and wouldn't care anyway. The damage has been done, so to speak.

Then all the way through page 10 we have this weird side argument on how 5% chance puri proc is somehow more OP than a 66% chance pro-active chance to avoid every kind of de-buff entirely on a class that has the ability to effectively kite away pretty much at will, and lock you when they come back.

You can think what you want about the class. It's obvious by your responses you refuse to even entertain the idea of trying to see another side of the story, but don't feed everyone this B.S. and pretend you're not throwing half-assed propaganda around.

Purify Proc is a 15-16% chance, you should know that. The reason its OP, is the fact it gives a speedboost, and antistun, for free. It doesn't require you to click a button or move your mouse, it can activate while you are stunned or CCed. Sins can't do that. Also Tidal is 50-66% chance to aviod debuffs, while purify (once proced) avoids debuffs by 100%. It gives casters more freedom than tidal because a sin can still be immobolized during it, when Purify procs, nothing can stop you from moving.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver · October 2013

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So much wrong here. I sense butt hurt.

All of those stealth options can still be seen with a lv31 stealth pot which drop like candy from AEU chest. As for depreciating sins, everyone tries to make it seem like all of us herp derp aps, or we only come out of stealth when tidal is up. Quite honestly its offensive to the good sins, or those of us who have a good reputation. We don't care about how you feel, or what you think. We care about the facts. Sins have a lot they have to go through to kill an opponent:

1. Melee range
2. Anti-stuns/AD/IG/Pangu
3. Passive buffs like SoV/SoR/Soul of Stunning and Silence/Bramble
4. Aoe's Flying about
5. Whether you can actually kill the person

And that's all before we even get near you. As a psy, can you honestly say you go through all those check pionts before you attempt to blast something, or you do you just cast your spell normally?

Knowing that the class is blasted as soon as they are out of stealth in most occassions (mass pvp and pk). Do you really think that 'good chance at resistance' is gonna matter much? It's sometimes the only thing to save me from 20 people chasing me accross the TW map with several stunning arrows. Imo, even purify proc wins on that seeing as it is 100% resistance to movement debuffs, AND it gives 200% speed boost. If they nerf tidal, they can at least give us a speed boost to compensate, like they compensated all the low pdef casters.

Actually Barbs and Clerics have a similar skill, and both of those classes are WAAYY more tanky than a sin.

Because this excludes the spammable 100% ones right? Most of the % debuff skills have heavy damage attached to them as well. You make them sound like criminals. What did they steal from you? Your peace of mind?

Purify Proc is a 15-16% chance, you should know that. The reason its OP, is the fact it gives a speedboost, and antistun, for free. It doesn't require you to click a button or move your mouse, it can activate while you are stunned or CCed. Sins can't do that. Also Tidal is 50-66% chance to aviod debuffs, while purify (once proced) avoids debuffs by 100%. It gives casters more freedom than tidal because a sin can still be immobolized during it, when Purify procs, nothing can stop you from moving.

so wrong. when purify is proced you still get 100% HF, amp, purge etc etc. while tidal will be 33%.

tbh people cried about purify because of NW flag, when the one carrying it is full r9rr+12 jades and the oenstrying to kill have lower gears.

wont sya its not strong, but its not as op as you think. in 1v1 it doesnt proc that much, would prefer god of frenzy over this. in TW as a caster you wont run in because your opponents are strong too. it will save you sometimes, yes. even in NW now, will take an example, last week end. huge flag battle. A_Raft R9rr +12 josd mystic picked flag, died soon after. Aeliah R9rr+12 josd cleric used IG to pick, then died soon after picking it twice. if the ones attacking you are better than R8,G15 or G16 +5, purify wont proc that much.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Yeah, hmm, I thought there were more posts. Well, I don't feel like reading Zanryus, so I'll just explain to you since you asked.

Sister_Warui - Raging Tide wrote: »

Detection Pot?... -Zsw/tsyfall (tsyfall in response to Zanryu)

...Yeah no. Justice answered this properly and the one defense I saw was 'yeah but in a 5v1 scenario you can each hit it after 30 seconds. You JUST told us this was about a 1v1 scenario. And you've got way more stealth options than one stealth pot is seriously going to be able to cover. While it is not the point of this thread, and I get that, stop making this out to be like everything people say is wrong because it does not depreciate sins and make the players of them look godly when they win.

All I can say is, don't fight sins that stealth. Sure, remove stealth. I'm not defending it.

See, the idea behind sins is that they were built to make up for the faults of archers. Archers were an evasion based class, but evasion is pretty useless end game. So instead, they coded evasion differently and gave it to sins, which is alot more effective. Sins only have stealth to fit the "Assassin" stereotype really.

No. Nerfing tidal says it is not balanced the way it's currently implemented. You can say whatever you want here but this is the truth. Each time someone in this thread called for a nerf, or against anything you said really, with any reasonable argument, they were NOT pushing to get it taken away entirely. No one ever said do it without tidal completely. Stop acting like it. Zanryu even made sure to cover his *** by saying ' A slight nerf to Demon and Sage Tidal would allow people to have a decent chance at landing debuffs while still allowing the sin extremely good resistance to it.' so people couldn't get their **** twisted and say things like 'as good as I am I can't do it without tidal'. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in there can you get 'hurr durr do it without tidal completely!' out of it. Stop acting like it.

I am not arguing that Tidal is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. Rather, I am saying that in the way it is designed, despite seemingly obvious "advantages", it does not make sins OP. Now, I admit that some classes simply cannot beat an equally skilled end game sin. But I also find it very hard for a bm to beat a barb for example. I have good reason to believe that Blademasters, Wizards, Barbs, Psychics and other sins can for sure beat another equal skilled end game sin at least 50% of the time. Seeker, Clerics and Veno I am quite certain. Mystic is the only class I'm not too sure about.

As for how this work, i already discussed.

Once you cast the skill, something else has to proc it for an instant cast. This is the very definition of a passive skill. I don't care if it's different than the other kinds. You're still the only freaking class I have to kill twice.

Technically barbs have deaden too and clerics have a different "on demand" deaden. Sins are very probability dependent. Deaden is there to help counteract probabilities that bring disadvantage to the sin. Modify it or remove it, would be the same imo.

This is a very wonderful thing to point out, in my opinion, as you all seem to think 33% chance of hitting is somehow always 33% chance of hitting, which it very obviously isn't given the amount of skills that are % based chance to proc after casting. Conveniently, I do not see it answered by tsyfall or scrabble, the two ring leaders to this whole thread, by the looks of it

It is exactly because we don't think 33% chance is always equal to 1 in 3 do we suggest using debuffs. Why? Because while it implies that there is a chance that 0 in 3 will land, there is also a chance that 3 in 3 will land. Yes, there is a huge deal of luck involved to kill them, but there is an equal amount of luck involved for them to kill you. A sin NEEDs to zerk crit. They pretty much cannot kill you if they don't, and in the times they do, you have a genie, apoth, and other class based defensive skill to survive that. So really, the sin needs to get lucky enough to get several good combos in to kill you. And between So yes, it IS a matter of luck, but at the sametime, one has to be skill enough to make use of their luck. Why are some sins easier to kill than others? That's because some sins use stupid combos when the advantage is to them, and waste their defenses when the advantage is against them.

I noticed longknife calling for it to be able to be purified off somehow, and yet I hear no response to that either, given it's at least a thought and not based on 'hurr durr never have tidal' logic...which is what half of your (zsw) responses are to. PS. Don't make me actually count how many times that's all you responded to or with on a page, as I honestly don't wanna, and wouldn't care anyway. The damage has been done, so to speak.

Then all the way through page 10 we have this weird side argument on how 5% chance puri proc is somehow more OP than a 66% chance pro-active chance to avoid every kind of de-buff entirely on a class that has the ability to effectively kite away pretty much at will, and lock you when they come back.

You can think what you want about the class. It's obvious by your responses you refuse to even entertain the idea of trying to see another side of the story, but don't feed everyone this B.S. and pretend you're not throwing half-assed propaganda around.

Purge Tidal? Sure, more power to the veno. Would this game be better with a nerfed tidal? Maybe and Maybe not. For example, if you made it so that it always block the first two hits, then allow the third, it could work and maybe take more skill in 1 v 1, but then sins become even more forced to rely on stealth in mass pk. So +1 here and -1 there.

Regardless, that wasn't the point of my post. All I am saying is that as is, Tidal, even as it stands, does not make sins overpowered. I've outlined strategies that have proven to work against assassins at least half the time. That is the extent I'm going up to.

juicybluca · October 2013

are you still argumenting and justifying stuff here?

r9r3+12 josd sage sin is impossible to beat 1vs1 for any other equal geared class,
when buffed needs at least 5 equal geared gank to be taken down

now which other class is like this? none!
each other class can be purged, can be debuffed etch... sage sin cant... if josd and buffed can even tank damage pretty well

its juts freaking op, just nerf period

opkossy · October 2013

juicybluca wrote: »

are you still argumenting and justifying stuff here?

r9r3+12 josd sage sin is impossible to beat 1vs1 for any other equal geared class,
when buffed needs at least 5 equal geared gank to be taken down

now which other class is like this? none!
each other class can be purged, can be debuffed etch... sage sin cant... if josd and buffed can even tank damage pretty well

its juts freaking op, just nerf period

The above is completely false. As has already been shown multiple times throughout this thread if you'd bother to actually look at the videos.

Tidal is not some sort of magic that makes a sin unkillable and that will stay up forever and ever. Seriously, get more skilled with your class and learn to fight them properly and you'll see it's more than possible.

Heck, play a sage sin and fight equal geared opponents who have more skill than you're currently displaying and watch how fast you'll get dropped even with tidal.

juicybluca · October 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

The above is completely false. As has already been shown multiple times throughout this thread if you'd bother to actually look at the videos.

Tidal is not some sort of magic that makes a sin unkillable and that will stay up forever and ever. Seriously, get more skilled with your class and learn to fight them properly and you'll see it's more than possible.

Heck, play a sage sin and fight equal geared opponents who have more skill than you're currently displaying and watch how fast you'll get dropped even with tidal.

bla bla bla
yea suuuuuuuuuuuuuure
blea a buffed josd sage sin can run into 5 people kill the AA or the non josd and get away easily, which class can do this?

you
are
not
objective

sage sin op nerf tidal period

Unholly - Morai · October 2013

juicybluca wrote: »

are you still argumenting and justifying stuff here?

r9r3+12 josd sage sin is impossible to beat 1vs1 for any other equal geared class Incorrect, dont use absolutes when they clearly are not true,
when buffed needs at least 5 equal geared gank to be taken downThis is the case for most classes that are +12 jades fully buffed... no?

now which other class is like this? none! Barb, WV camp psy or seeker
each other class can be purged, can be debuffed etch ... sage sin less likely... if josd and buffed can even tank damage pretty well

its juts freaking op, just nerf period

As stated before in this thread (consolidating it for you):
Purge - Will affect an assassins survival more than any other class (Someone correct me if i am wrong)
Cost of purge - As mentioned before when tidal is up, cheap low cost skills/debuffs can still be used on an assassin. Most skills that purge are cheap and as long as the cds are less than tidal why not use them? Sure they are less likely to work but the reward is greater when they do.

Josd and buffs can be attained by any class and normally benefit them more, your argument is invalid.

Regarding your second post:
A better geared class (X) kills a worse geared class (Y) = nerf?
r9 bm one hit my 94 wizard = nerf BMs they are too OP.

What other class can do this? Full +12 jades barb anti stun apoth out of sz arma on group run back to sz, rinse and repeat for max effect.

juicybluca · October 2013

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

As stated before in this thread (consolidating it for you):
Purge - Will affect an assassins survival more than any other class (Someone correct me if i am wrong)
Cost of purge - As mentioned before when tidal is up, cheap low cost skills/debuffs can still be used on an assassin. Most skills that purge are cheap and as long as the cds are less than tidal why not use them? Sure they are less likely to work but the reward is greater when they do.

Josd and buffs can be attained by any class and normally benefit them more, your argument is invalid.

too bad other classes can be purged, too bad barbs or seekers doesnt zercrit 20ks from stealth and psys to deal that damage they have to become hell of a squishies, while sins have a plain free 30 atk lvl buff

opkossy · October 2013

juicybluca wrote: »

bla bla bla
yea suuuuuuuuuuuuuure
blea a buffed josd sage sin can run into 5 people kill the AA or the non josd and get away easily, which class can do this?

Any endgame class with a hard hitting AoE.... aka all of them.

Herpderp a person pretending to be objective while actually being completely clueless.

Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid.

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