Harshlands and veno confusion

Justallevil is much more than a purgebot ... She has brought life back to her class and all veno's everywhere should learn to play from her ))) !!!! Keep up the good work evil!

Depend of your build, if you are pure magic than ofc you will DD better than a R8+5 wizz, but if you are hybrid vit than some might be better DD with a lower weapon.

It depend compare to who, but usually veno are not the best DD, people take them for their debuffs. (amp, purge, etc..)

And barbs are not tank anymore since a long time. They cannot hold aggro on any class anymore.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Depend of your build, if you are pure magic than ofc you will DD better than a R8+5 wizz, but if you are hybrid vit than some might be better DD with a lower weapon.

It depend compare to who, but usually veno are not the best DD, people take them for their debuffs. (amp, purge, etc..)

And barbs are not tank anymore since a long time. They cannot hold aggro on any class anymore.

I'd be pretty surprised if a r8+5 wiz out-dd'ed even a pure vit/HA/LA veno with r9rr+10 tbh xD

JustAllEvil - Harshlands wrote: »

I am pure magic r9rr+10, so I hit quite hard but don't realistically have the ability to tank well things like Incarnate in WS. I've had people whine at me for refusing to tank and pull full WS. Pdef is plain not high enough right now to handle it, and having my charm dinged 20 times isn't pleasant. PvE is not my strongest point, I admit.

Just curious, what's your gear's status right now?

I'm sitting at 11k unbuffed with R9 3rd cast gear +7 and I'm able to pull and tank full WS uncharmed as long as I get heals. For Lunar pulls/tanking I do need a charm though. At times I do have to use IG or Feral Concentration but it's do-oable. Pulling should at least be fairly easy since they are magic monsters.

My physical defence is 4.5k unbuffed or 5k depending on what cape I use. It's still fairly low but I'm currently farming a G16 cube necklace. It will take a while though.

Not sure how you can't tank incacerate. Though I'd assume if you attempted that you would be a sage veno in fox form. Then it shouldn't be an issue since your pdef should be about the same as an LA class. For example, I could sit in R9RR on a sin without aps gear on and the boss wouldn't tick my charm if BB is up. (And no BP doesn't really matter that much sense I'm not in aps gear, just my defense is well enough to take hits without ticking). Just look out for his frenzy. Also venos are a support class, purge, amp, chi drain, CC from pets, nova for seal/silencing groups, and turning targets into little puff balls. That just about sums it up.

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

- my venos pdeff is way higher than my archers..and my archer has pdeff cube neck and ring.
- yup, venos can just debuff, they dont have magical skills that deal up to 300% weapon dmg. facepalm. but im glad everyone underestimates this class, makes it easier for us in pvp

True story. b:chuckle
Although I don't consider myself anything like the best PvPers out there, but I think I can hold my own.

I miss omen...

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

I miss omen...

Tell Apo to stop hogging the omen then. Greedy ****. b:angry

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

I miss Happy too... b:sad

i absolutely dont b:chuckle

JustAllEvil - Harshlands wrote: »

Can Harshlands come to some kind of agreement about what category venos fall into?

It makes you look a little dense when you think a r9rr +10 veno can't DD.

It makes you look equally dense when you have two barbs in squad and expect the veno to tank.

b:thanks

P.S.

The monkey is like a nix. Not like a herc. Stop asking me to compare the two. It's like apples and oranges.

There's an economic theory that states if Germany can produce 110 thousand cars and 60 thousand wine bottles within the period of 3 months, whereas France can produce only 45 thousand cars but 95 thousand wine bottles in 3 months, then Germany should halt production of wine and focus solely on cars while France stops producing cars and focuses solely on wine, then the two trade with each other and we end up with more cars and wine for everyone.


That's the jist of what it means to be a veno, sin, seeker, mystic, BM, or any other would-be DD class.
Yes, of course EVERY class is capable of DDing, it's just that Wizards, Archers and Psys are the three that DD the best and DD better, more easily and more frequently/drastically than the others. To make a healthy team, you want everyone focusing on the job they do best and doing that on behalf of the team. Again, the above three DD best, whereas classes such as veno have other jobs they do better than anyone else and should therefore focus on (in veno's case, purging).


And that's why veno is a secondary, part-time support DD and not a full-time DD.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Man, Venomancers can do more than just purging. That's not the only skill we can use to **** people over, it has a 30/25 second anyway, we can't just sit around doing nothing during that time.

Right, but you purge better than anyone else.

That's what matters.
A cleric can DD as well as heal (BETTER than a veno, infact), a BM can tank as well as stunlock. Does that mean clerics should be DDing and BMs should be pulling cata? No, because clerics are more useful when they're healing and BMs are more useful when they're stunning, not to mention that a cleric is not going to out-DD a Psy (cleric single targets, Psy spams AOEs) nor is a BM going to out-tank a barb (turtle is everything for tanking focus-firing).

Everyone needs to focus on the job they're BEST at; the one they do better than everyone else. If you have a barb in your base and on your crystal, do you want the veno assisting the archer, wiz and Psy as they shoot at the barb by shooting as well, OR do you want the veno increasing the damage output of those three by purging and amping and ONLY DDing itself if it gets a free moment to do so AFTER doing it's other jobs?

A simple purge increases the damage of the Psy and wiz by 60%, and then amp can add 20-30% for each of them, not to mention the archer's damage (though admittedly he's going to be hunting any cata clerics first, because again, he kills clerics better than the other two) increase. The veno DDing itself and not bothering to purge or amp? That extra DD will be abysmally pathetic compared to what would be gained with a simple purge and amp.

Likewise, while Nova has it's uses, those sparks would be much better used going to a Blademaster who can AGAIN amp for the other three, or to a wizard who is just absolutely uncontested when it comes to the highest magical DPH.

And again, for anyone already thinking "maybe cleric could get higher DPH!!11" cause of metal mage form....but is it PRACTICAL? The Psy and the Wiz can AOE out the ***. If you've got four catas on your crystal, you do NOT want the veno spamming single target spells and only doing a rather mediocre AOE every 6 seconds. If you're in PK and a vital cleric of yours is being absolutely swarmed, you do NOT want the veno to be the one that has to come to the rescue if a Psychic or Wiz can do it instead.




In short, it was never about "can it DD?" Every single class in the GAME can DD and can deal respectable amounts of damage. The real question is "can it DD better than any other class (or tie with the other best classes)" or "is it's DD capability it's most valuable commodity." As it stands now, the only classes that can answer "yes" to those questions are Wizard, Archer and Psychic.

Hell, even Seeker is considered to be more of a support DD rather than a full-time DD simply because it's DD type and style isn't reliable or practical in that it's an incredibly easy to stun class, it REALLY struggles to deal with Psychics in mass fights (you'll notice that archers, wizards and Psys don't have severe strengths or weaknesses over one another in mass fights, and that these classes tend to be weak against more support-styled classes, such as barbs (archer) and clerics (psychic)), and it can only guarentee a kill on a single target that it Quid Pro Quos, then for everyone else it's just a standard DD with ironically less survivability just because it lacks any means of escape. Wizards can distance shrink away from danger, archers can keep anti-stun up for days, Psychics have Psy will, White voodoo, SoSt, SoSi and SoR, but seekers? Their defense is their raw stats, which UNFORTUNATELY doesn't do **** all in the face of mass focus-fire. You focus one of the other three? They have a means of escaping that focus-fire entirely. A Seeker does NOT, and thus they tend to get eaten alive if you try to put them DIRECTLY toe-to-toe with the other three. In that sense, a Seeker is nothing more than a TW-friendly sin that can AOE and DD more practically, but it still needs to stay somewhat behind the other three or it'll quickly be focused down.


Same with sin. It's job is DDing and nothing but, and yet it's not considered a primary DD because it's DD is often impractical. Yes, it can likely get the kill on any singular target you stick it on, but the moment it's noticed, it needs to start planning a retreat. It can keep killing, sure, but it's kills-per-second is abysmal compared to the other three.

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

stuff

I wasn't talking about DDing O.o
Whilst Venomancer's purge is the best they also have things such as Chi Burn, Crush Vigor, Fossilized Curse, Myriad Rainbow, Ironwood (especially Demon when it proc's), Bewitch etc. that can easily turn the battle around in team play or even solo. Those shouldn't be ignored either.

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Sorry, accustomed to hearing a speech about how purging is just a minor role and venos should spend the other 25 seconds DDing right about then.

But yeah, at this point with all the recent skill updates, venos are practically magic BMs at this point. Purge, then amp, then bewitch, then Chi Burn, then pass chi, then then then....At that point, DDing seems to get crowded out so much to the point where the only reason to DD is to either help stun or CC with Nova, or possibly Ironwood if it's with a heavy-physical squad. They've just got so many disables and debuffs that there's rarely a moment they'll have free to even DD, and that's the way it should be.

As I said, people seem to focus more on the potential of the class and not so much the potential by comparison. Only by comparing yourself to other classes can you highlight how to make your class most useful to your team.

Unfortunately I do see a lot of Venomancers trying to DD instead of doing what they are meant to whenever I get to TW (despite us having a Veno-TW educational thread on the faction forums) so I don't blame you xD