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Full Warsong; Mobless vs mobbed

Argenesis - Raging TideArgenesis - Raging Tide Posts: 49 Arc User
edited July 2013 in General Discussion
So, here I am, a little 100 r8 wizard, and I need fws to gear up, which is no problem since I can solo metal and fire, I just have to be patient, but I do find/make squads often enough. I see in world chat for the past 15 minutes some cleric looking for a sin and veno for a mobless full warsong. Now, Mobless warsong is all fine and dandy, but they never want wizards/psychics etc., so I don't even bother to ask.

So, I decide to make my own squad and I get a sage sin friend to come his t3 daggers have double interval and he is sage. I need to world chat for the rest, so I grab, with time, a cleric who also has r8, a barb wearing only t2 armor and weapon, a seeker with t3 armor but t2 weapon does water, and the BM is the only full t3 and he does earth. We all do pavilions, no failures, all goes smooth.

The person worldchatting for a veno in a mobless warsong seems to have found a sin, but is still seeking a veno.

We do mobless earth because it's super easy. All goes smooth, I did die though, because a three spark HF, sage subsea, and sage soulshatter makes any wizards BT hurt. But other than that, it goes nice.

We go to heart and we pull metal in one big pull, no deaths, mobs die pretty quick with our AoE power. Snakefist dies pretty easy as well, and vile takes longer, as usual, but dies nicely, no deaths. We quickly turn around and half pull fire, which is a bit harder for us to kill, a few near-deaths, but our cleric seems to be a pro at this and keeps us all alive for both the pulls. Cannon comes and the first cannon dies easily, but the second cannon nearly kills our sin, but our BM decides he's gonna buddhas guard and we finish the boss before the sins P.Def lets up and there are no deaths.

The person world chatting earlier is -still- looking for a veno and now another sin, one must have left.

Now we're onto wood/water, which always takes a while. We have the BM pull the first 4 groups and the barb uses roar behind the BM to provide aggro is on the barb and he uses a vac as he uses roar, so he's fine. One BB and AoE spam later, everything is fine. We continue going 3-5 groups at a time until we get to wood boss. No tricks or stunts here, just a tank and spank. Water goes just the same.

Now we're buffing in front of incarcerate and I glance at world chat and, you guessed it, they are still looking for a sin and veno.

We manage to, as a squad, kill the adds on incarcerate before they can take effect, so we get no slow, we get no purge, nothing. It was brilliant. And as we all know, vile is even easier, so vile dies and we split. By the time I get out, the person finally found a sin, but still seeking a veno.

This person was so determined to have a mobless full warsong that they would spend well over an hour looking for a certain class than to suck it up and do a normal run. I did another run and this person only found the last squad member when we were on our way to cannonfist. Either that or they stopped, but after over 1 mil in teles, I doubt they'd just quit.

I just thought it was funny how badly people want to not do anything, so badly that a couple people can squad with randoms and get not only one full run, but another half of a run in the time it takes them to make a squad. Any other servers have people this lazy?
Post edited by Argenesis - Raging Tide on
My avatar won't update, I'm not level 38, I swear. b:surrender

Finally 100, now using r8 to farm my t3.
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Comments

  • Euthymius - Heavens TearEuthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It just goes to show that sometimes its easier to form a WS squad to do it the usual way instead of putting together a Spawn Killing squad (The latter is still faster if you've got enough contacts within friend list/faction to create such a squad though b:surrender)
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  • Argenesis - Raging TideArgenesis - Raging Tide Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I have nothing against mobless runs, personally I don't like them but I understand the desire for them, so if someone has the contacts then it's fine to do it, but it's silly to look for that long b:chuckle
    My avatar won't update, I'm not level 38, I swear. b:surrender

    Finally 100, now using r8 to farm my t3.
  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless runs need a certain quality of gear that is rare. It's only really an option if you have a static squad/lots of people that you know that can run it. As for forming, of course, sometimes there just aren't interested people on. Took me an hour to form a regular warsong, for example.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's what Walpurga said. You need a group of friends or faction mates that have good gear and can have good coordination and teamwork to time debuffs right. A static group that can get together and run within a few moments otherwise you might as well do a normal run.

    I would never dare to join a WC squad for a mobless (or IG WS as Sanctuary calls it) anyway. People who need to WC for such things usually: A) are undergeared and/or just spoiled, trying to gather OP people to do the job for them B) don't have friends/faction mates to run with and that can indicate something. Usually those runs will just end up as a failure due to lack of either gear or teamwork/coordination.

    That doesn't apply to everyone of course but that's how I see it.
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  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's what Walpurga said. You need a group of friends or faction mates that have good gear and can have good coordination and teamwork to time debuffs right. A static group that can get together and run within a few moments otherwise you might as well do a normal run.

    I would never dare to join a WC squad for a mobless (or IG WS as Sanctuary calls it) anyway. People who need to WC for such things usually: A) are undergeared and/or just spoiled, trying to gather OP people to do the job for them B) don't have friends/faction mates to run with and that can indicate something. Usually those runs will just end up as a failure due to lack of either gear or teamwork/coordination.

    That doesn't apply to everyone of course but that's how I see it.

    I used to think the same until I was able to get in them (g16t3 +10 here). The ones starting the squads normally have very good gear here on DW, it's the other people who respond that sometimes don't have the same gear as we do aka g13 sins and bm's. I find it's a bit stupid to assume they are undergeared seeing as it does require a good type of gear, and lets face it, a lot of ppl that come for full WS are undergeared, half of the clerics you meet can't even solo a pavilion.

    You say they end up in failure, have you ever done one of these runs? Because the one's I have been on have all succeded and were a lot of fun. Yes we died sometimes but hey, it was still faster than full ws (20-30mins).

    As for the debuffs, all you need is a veno, and demon hf. Highly dagger refined sins would be able to dish out about 750k-1m damage each in that 10sec window if they use powerdash+mire+subsea (only 1 sin has to subsea). Next time have some experience in this type of squad before you pass false judgements.
  • Decus - DreamweaverDecus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Just going to leave this as I find it's applicable...
    I've never understood why people complain about content but then skip content... >.>
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I used to think the same until I was able to get in them (g16t3 +10 here). The ones starting the squads normally have very good gear here on DW, it's the other people who respond that sometimes don't have the same gear as we do aka g13 sins and bm's. I find it's a bit stupid to assume they are undergeared seeing as it does require a good type of gear, and lets face it, a lot of ppl that come for full WS are undergeared, half of the clerics you meet can't even solo a pavilion.

    You say they end up in failure, have you ever done one of these runs? Because the one's I have been on have all succeded and were a lot of fun. Yes we died sometimes but hey, it was still faster than full ws (20-30mins).

    As for the debuffs, all you need is a veno, and demon hf. Highly dagger refined sins would be able to dish out about 750k-1m damage each in that 10sec window if they use powerdash+mire+subsea (only 1 sin has to subsea). Next time have some experience in this type of squad before you pass false judgements.


    Hence I said "That doesn't apply to everyone of course" and yes I've been in such a run as have a couple of friends who reported how bad it was. Unless I'm running with a certain group of people, I prefer to go for normal warsong runs.

    I'm been playing long enough to know how some of the people on my server are and what they do and whilst I don't avoid WC/random squads I prefer not to take such big risks when it comes to farming extensively.

    EDIT: Just forgot to add that it's not just the gear but the coordination too. The group I used to run mobless WS with (because we're no longer farming warsong) had excellent teamwork.
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  • Argenesis - Raging TideArgenesis - Raging Tide Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Just going to leave this as I find it's applicable...

    You, sir, are too correct.
    My avatar won't update, I'm not level 38, I swear. b:surrender

    Finally 100, now using r8 to farm my t3.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This phenomenon happened before during the Nirvana / APS craze. People on world chat often required assassins or BMs only with 4 or 5 aps. All other classes, including other classes with 4 or 5 aps, were rejected. These people occasionally spend over an hour trying to find a Nirvana squad. I recall one time when I got rejected from a world chat squad, started my own, and finished a Nirvana run before the other person started his / her run.
  • Argenesis - Raging TideArgenesis - Raging Tide Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This phenomenon happened before during the Nirvana / APS craze. People on world chat often required assassins or BMs only with 4 or 5 aps. All other classes, including other classes with 4 or 5 aps, were rejected. These people occasionally spend over an hour trying to find a Nirvana squad. I recall one time when I got rejected from a world chat squad, started my own, and finished a Nirvana run before the other person started his / her run.

    Nirvy was a total abomination for the free to play player. BMs had to have demon HF and be 5 aps with t3+10 fists. Same for sins, so most sages were rejected for being 4 aps with t3 unless they had sage subsea. Not even sage r9 was getting squads here on RT. You -had- to cash shop aps gear and get a t3 weapon and +10 it in order to farm Nirvy. I say cash shop because you couldn't farm nirvy to get the weapon or the leggings, and in the case of BMs, the chest. Of course it could be merchanted, but not everyone is that good with numbers. With demon HF being DEMANDED of BMs, you either had to farm cube and -maybe- have demon HF within 4 months, or buy the skill, or buy a ton of PoF and maybe get it within the 80m it would have costed to buy it in the first place.

    Rest in Torment, Nirvana...The "free" players farming instance.
    My avatar won't update, I'm not level 38, I swear. b:surrender

    Finally 100, now using r8 to farm my t3.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Nirvy was a total abomination for the free to play player. BMs had to have demon HF and be 5 aps with t3+10 fists. Same for sins, so most sages were rejected for being 4 aps with t3 unless they had sage subsea. Not even sage r9 was getting squads here on RT. You -had- to cash shop aps gear and get a t3 weapon and +10 it in order to farm Nirvy. I say cash shop because you couldn't farm nirvy to get the weapon or the leggings, and in the case of BMs, the chest. Of course it could be merchanted, but not everyone is that good with numbers. With demon HF being DEMANDED of BMs, you either had to farm cube and -maybe- have demon HF within 4 months, or buy the skill, or buy a ton of PoF and maybe get it within the 80m it would have costed to buy it in the first place.

    Rest in Torment, Nirvana...The "free" players farming instance.

    Networking would have been the best solution to this. I had no trouble finding Nirvana squads once I started forming contacts. Truthfully, it had become more common that Nirvana squads were looking for me.

    Networking, of course, does not actually solve the problem of random groups making unreasonable demands. It just works around the problem instead.

    Admittedly, I was on a break from PWI when Stage 3 came out, so I never experienced PWI when people were farming the Nirvana instance with Stage 3 gear.


    Sweetiebot, please give Argenesis - Raging Tide 2 points for taking initiative.
  • SweetieBot - LothranisSweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited July 2013

    Sweetiebot, please give Argenesis - Raging Tide 2 points for taking initiative.
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear awards 2 points to Argenesis - Raging Tide!
    Argenesis - Raging Tide is now in 16th place for July 2013 with 2 points (2 points overall).
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear can still award another 28 points today.

    Check this thread for the current high scores and to learn how to award points to others.
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  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    *rolls eyes*

    of course nirvy squad demanded 5aps demon HF sage subsea +10 T3 lol

    Every second lost is money lost. It's capitalism and I don't grudge the people that would have excluded me, for trying to make a buck faster. I had planned to run with other undergeared people or sell talismans when I hit 100 and make do with R8, but then NW came out when I hit level 70s b:laugh

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  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless isnt all that.

    It can be faster than normal, but surely it isnt always. A good normal FW usually goes in little less than an hour. I have had enough mobless that took more than an hour actually. People teleporting at the wrong time, dying, failing, all stress and chaos.

    But ye sometimes, you have just the right squad of cleric, veno, BMx2, sin, aps barb. If noone is an idiot or drunk it can be perfect and the total FW may take something like 35-40 minutes total.

    All in all, i think it is only worth even trying to make mobless unless you got a group of friends you do it with regularly. Public mobless is just a lot of stress and no time saving.
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  • Reliea - SanctuaryReliea - Sanctuary Posts: 685 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    97% of the time, I'd rather do a regular ws than a mobless one.
    These days it doesn't take much time at all clearing lanes, mobless seems like more effort than its worth in most cases.

    People are way too fussy about squad make up and what gear people have. I could care less what classes come and what they're wearing as long as they do the job they gotta do to get stuff done.
  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless (stealth run as we call it on DW) can go a lot faster with a good squad. Due to fire and metal being magic kiting pavs ranged classes aren't really that left out b:laugh

    But it really does depend on a reliable static, which seems really rare on this game.
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  • MyMate - DreamweaverMyMate - Dreamweaver Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless = 1 BM + 5 sins + Ironguard = Faceroll 4 badges in ~15min =)
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  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless = 1 BM + 5 sins + Ironguard = Faceroll 4 badges in ~15min =)

    well that is a badge run :) Mobless doesnt mean you dont defend and dont kill incacerate

    Yes if you dont defend, you dont need 2 ranged chars alowing an all APS team. (or a 5aps + veno)

    4x aps + veno and cleric isnt that much less dps though
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  • Salari - Raging TideSalari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As for the debuffs, all you need is a veno, and demon hf. Highly dagger refined sins would be able to dish out about 750k-1m damage each in that 10sec window if they use powerdash+mire+subsea (only 1 sin has to subsea). Next time have some experience in this type of squad before you pass false judgements.

    Depends on the daggers as well. R8/G15(zerk)/g16/R9(and reforges) can already deal upto 500k and beyond 1m dmg through a spark cycle with just self buffs and should atleast get up in the 3m range when boss is fully debuffed. In that vid I misjudged the distance and me having to walk to boss after sparked made it a 2 spark kill. If you setup your squad right(timing and toons), in mobless FWS the bosses will go down in maybe a half of a spark cycle if that much.
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  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    well that is a badge run :) Mobless doesnt mean you dont defend and dont kill incacerate

    Yes if you dont defend, you dont need 2 ranged chars alowing an all APS team. (or a 5aps + veno)

    4x aps + veno and cleric isnt that much less dps though

    If you do mobless badge you can log alts in to start the pavs timer first in the next instance while you kill bosses, and then immediately start next run while using alts to open another instance
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  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Except for Water and Wood the mobless WS really isn't much faster. When you take in the 25k IG x 5 it just isn't that much of a benefit for me. Each mob pull takes a little over a minute, so who cares?
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  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Except for Water and Wood the mobless WS really isn't much faster. When you take in the 25k IG x 5 it just isn't that much of a benefit for me. Each mob pull takes a little over a minute, so who cares?

    Then again, the mob pull costs us vacs or chargers or whatever. We barbs are the ones paying the bill either way :(
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  • Salari - Raging TideSalari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Except for Water and Wood the mobless WS really isn't much faster. When you take in the 25k IG x 5 it just isn't that much of a benefit for me. Each mob pull takes a little over a minute, so who cares?

    grats on 105 nab j/k b:victory but grats b:pleased
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  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Networking would have been the best solution to this. I had no trouble finding Nirvana squads once I started forming contacts. Truthfully, it had become more common that Nirvana squads were looking for me.

    Networking, of course, does not actually solve the problem of random groups making unreasonable demands. It just works around the problem instead.

    Admittedly, I was on a break from PWI when Stage 3 came out, so I never experienced PWI when people were farming the Nirvana instance with Stage 3 gear.


    Sweetiebot, please give Argenesis - Raging Tide 2 points for taking initiative.

    I dunno how RT was but for my own experience his comment is complete bull. All Archo wanted from BMs was Demon HF, BMs damage w/o N3 claws/fists is pretty irrelevant compared to high tier sins.

    Depending on how many ppl you wanted to take the tiers were set. Usual 5man squad would be BM, Veno, 3 +10 sins. And even BT ones werent rejected for those. That was enough to faceroll the instance and still required one opener. Least the people I usually ran werent idiots, you didnt go for super high tier squad if you werent gonna do 3/4man and massive amount of runs.
    Mobless (stealth run as we call it on DW) can go a lot faster with a good squad. Due to fire and metal being magic kiting pavs ranged classes aren't really that left out b:laugh

    But it really does depend on a reliable static, which seems really rare on this game.

    Actually only metal is a lane sins dont really do well. Fire isnt bad, might tick charm few times but nothing relevant. Getting archer for STA there is pretty perfect option for mobless. And maybe its just archo, being small server everybody knowing everybody, but people seem to run a lot of mobless trough WC squads.
  • _omegis_ - Sanctuary_omegis_ - Sanctuary Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mobless runs don't actually need cleric.

    You don't really need IGs...if you have Pan Gu and enough DD.
  • thesquee1thesquee1 Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I dunno how RT was but for my own experience his comment is complete bull. All Archo wanted from BMs was Demon HF, BMs damage w/o N3 claws/fists is pretty irrelevant compared to high tier sins.

    Depending on how many ppl you wanted to take the tiers were set. Usual 5man squad would be BM, Veno, 3 +10 sins. And even BT ones werent rejected for those. That was enough to faceroll the instance and still required one opener. Least the people I usually ran werent idiots, you didnt go for super high tier squad if you werent gonna do 3/4man and massive amount of runs.

    What he says is true. A BM like me, an axe BM who still had demon HF (had, I'm sage now) could never find a squad. I would even try forming squads just to get ******* out for slowing the squad runs down. The problem with making one was most of the sins would then demand we split so they could get ride of me and get an aps BM. I always had lead so I never ended up being the one making the second squad, they'd give me the share from one run, and leave me out of the rest of the runs to worldchat for an aps BM with demon HF...

    It was actually because of all this that I decided to go sage. I was demon for the sake of making conveniences for my squad, I was able to demon HF and all that good stuff, better stuns and such, but in the end, nobody wanted me in squad unless it was delta, SoT, or Abadon. Even lunar squads wanted BMs with t3 axes -and- fists because they struggled with the last vile. Nevermind the fact that I can solo it, then need me to have aps <_<. Fortunately now lunar has died down and aps is less demanded...

    But off Nirvy and onto fws, like the topic is about, I refuse to do moblesses even if I were still demon. Mobless full warsong squads take just as long as a mobbed full warsong, and mobbed is funner because you are actually enjoying the content that others are complaining that there is a lack of. Even if it does take longer, it's funner and cheaper. And as for barbs and vacs, I like to pull wood/water with my anti stun so that the barb can anti stun behind me once I stop and then he can roar and not burn a vac since BM antistun lasts longer. Once aggro has been established I can HF and all ends well...An organized squad is an incredible thing.
  • Saethos - Raging TideSaethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Avatar fail, that last one was me...
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Umm mobless aka IG warsong is much faster than normal warsong but only under these circumstances:

    - skipping defending and skipping last boss, purely done for badge farming
    - opening instances for the timer while running one so there's no need to wait in-between the runs
    - there's a good teamwork and coordination so there are no deaths (multiple deaths require rebuffing, running back etc. consumes time)

    ...but sometimes it's too much trouble, lack of organization and coordination that usually leads to multiple deaths will make the mobless run take as long as a fast mobbed run.
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  • bitewarriorbitewarrior Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I have sensed some QQ and bragging right in the OP post with good and bad reason. But let me put it straight and in perspective.

    There will always be dumb people that fail to realize the purpose of why things are done this way instead of another way.

    Mob-less runs are done with friends and are ran in multi-runs purposes. I know me and my squad once we were set up we were doing 2 runs by the time any other WS squad had their 1st run completed.

    they are cheap in repair and charms and much faster then any other way and if we wanted to runs for badges only we would open a WS with an ALT and let the timer runs out while we were doing a run that allowed us to run 3 WS the time any other squad had finished their 1 run.

    I have recast-ed my R9 dagger 27 times before i was satisfied with my stats and all my friends were able to grab their mold and necessary badges before casting their 3rd cast R9 or nirvana.

    after the 15th or so WS we were just running for badges let me makes the math for you 27 x 20 badges = 540 badges with 5 badges a run that is roughly 108 WS runs now imagine the times and the apo and charms save with that amount of WS without mobs. BTW people were helping me with supplying IG from their AEU runs.

    TY and this is why mob-less run are FTW and those who tries to make a squad on fly from WC are simply just dumb.
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - HarshlandsXx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's like that for everything

    Sometime I see someone asking for a Barb for BH GV/Delta/RB than I start a squad, do my BH and still see the same person asking for a Barb and raging and asking where are all the Barbs...

    Why want absolutely a Barb when other class can tank as fine as a Barb?

    I personally ask for the role I need, tank, DD and healer, I don't care what class if they can do their job.
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