Max DEX
Lonchot - Heavens Tear
Posts: 43 Arc User
I got my barb with full nirvyS3 gear, and i noticed i got exactly 80 dex, wich allows me to get 13% critic... So i'd like to ask if i should get reset notes, and lower it to 60DEX, or keep it at 80Dex to hold 1% critic? b:surprised
Post edited by Lonchot - Heavens Tear on
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*point's at sig*
That is totally up to you, 340 hp or a little accuracy and a extra chance to hit a critical.It's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
Max vit, min dex, min str = win0
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Above me; that's when you wanna be a non hitting tank..
I prefer 187 dex for accuracy and critical hit and rest to strength ... Get your hp from refines and shards and be a massive hitter.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I stat 200 dex, for accuracy, claws and crit. And pumped everything else into str[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Do you consider:
Strength + Dex barb who can only be useful when spamming skills? This is a only-PvE / 1v1 build
rather than
Vit barb who can both tank and land armas? This is a group-PvP, NW, TW - build (can also be much more useful in 1v1s and PvE).
Am I the only one who actually realizes that Dex-barb is outdated? Don't say that I don't know, I've been a clawbarb myself; 2 YEARS AGO. I won't complain if you're clawbarb just for PvE, but PvP related events... lol?
Full strength barb is an option as well. Depends what gear-build you going for tho.
This is 2013. Not 2011. Dexbarb-is-outdated-in-PvP.
EDIT: Non-hitting tank? Ok, reset all your points to vit and tell me if you're still a "non-hitting"barb.0 -
Think even if I wasn't a claw barb I'd keep 80-100 dex base. Gotta lol everytime a 60 dex barb misses an attack (or even tries to attack). Dug a flag on an r9t3 barb last week with my bm simply because he couldn't hit me during the dig time. I was on 200 dex bm, used a 6 seconds stun and started digging. Stun wore off and he sat the trying to attack me with no luck.
1 dimensional barbs are exactly that, 1 dimensional. If all you care about it survivability, go vit/min dex. A full strength barb will have great dph but really has no more survivability than an aps barb. "I can use bloodbath!" Sure, but 300% of almost nothing is still almost nothing.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Think even if I wasn't a claw barb I'd keep 80-100 dex base. Gotta lol everytime a 60 dex barb misses an attack (or even tries to attack). Dug a flag on an r9t3 barb last week with my bm simply because he couldn't hit me during the dig time. I was on 200 dex bm, used a 6 seconds stun and started digging. Stun wore off and he sat the trying to attack me with no luck.
1 dimensional barbs are exactly that, 1 dimensional. If all you care about it survivability, go vit/min dex. A full strength barb will have great dph but really has no more survivability than an aps barb. "I can use bloodbath!" Sure, but 300% of almost nothing is still almost nothing.
What kind of barbs are you facing? We have like x5 100% hit skills, including mighty swing. You just faced an idiotic barb.
If you would go dex barb certainly because you miss a lot you haven't understood how to play a barb yet, properly. Tell me 1 situation where dex barb is better than a vit barb in PvP, assuming you're equally geared. I can think of 1 and that would be when 1v1 an APS sin, nothing more. The pros of being a vit barb obviously outweights the pros of being a dex barb, and this is without the cons in comparison of being a dex / vit bar which would by far explain my claims more clearly.0 -
As you can see, there is much disagreement over what to do with the points beyond your gear requirements.
Much disagreement i think means all options are viable (except magic but there is no disagreement about that) and thus you choose for yourself
PvP i cant yet say much about because i lack experience and i lack the equipment level to really make the difference for hitting or not hitting. My PvP is trying to get enemies to focus on me and using 100% hit mighty swing to stun enemies and let my teamies take care of it. So for that it all doesnt matter much. If you are better geared and you can actually kill people with your skills like armageddon, i can imagine you want to hit your opponents.
PvE i dont have much problem not hitting on my sage vit barb, but i do think dex is still not a very bad thing. If you just look at damage per second, the str and critt together is probably not so much behind on what the points in str would be worth.
That was all about dex. On str vs Vit in PvE: It depends on your level of equipment. If you have a G16+10 weapon and G16+7 armors or you expect to get this faster than you want to spend money on a restat note, go base vit and max str. If you are not that rich, stat min str, max vit and focus your money primarily on upgrading your weapon before your armors. +5 armors and +10 weapon on a vit barb is better than +7 armors and +7 weapon on a max str barb. If you get rich and no longer have to choose between refining weapon or armor, but you refine them both anyway, the extra hitpoints are not needed so you start str.
For PvP, again i lack experience to know if an endgame barb should be full str or stat vit. Since the vit becomes less significant as you get more from your refinements, i suspect max str is better.
And that is all assuming you dont even consider an APS barb. I dont like getting into the discussion anymore, but for PvE... well i agree with saku. why be 1 dimensional if you can be a tank, a single target DD and an AOE DD all in one ? Of course this assumes you are rich enough to buy APS gear and poor enough not to be an r9.3+12 JOSD barb 0 -
FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »What kind of barbs are you facing? We have like x5 100% hit skills, including mighty swing. You just faced an idiotic barb.
If you would go dex barb certainly because you miss a lot you haven't understood how to play a barb yet, properly. Tell me 1 situation where dex barb is better than a vit barb in PvP, assuming you're equally geared. I can think of 1 and that would be when 1v1 an APS sin, nothing more. The pros of being a vit barb obviously outweights the pros of being a dex barb, and this is without the cons in comparison of being a dex / vit bar which would by far explain my claims more clearly.
This was an ex Amplified BM, now a Vindi barb. He was in human most the time, which does limit the number of 100% accurate skills. Was a weird fight because I had a cleric above me and I was stunning the barb but not attacking because I kept telling the cleric "sleep him so I can dig" and didn't want to be attacking when the sleep came. She did everything but sleep, lol. She froze... she debuffed... she attacked... Eventually I ran low on chi and would aps to build chi and then stop when I saw her channel then aps some more when I saw it wasn't sleep. After the barb arma'd me I decided it'd be low on chi so I stunned and dug.
I like how you want me to name "one time dex outweighs vit." Everytime you miss. Everytime you zerk and don't crit. Everytime you don't crit. Everytime you use bloodbath for accuracy and lower your hp. Everytime a melee hits you. Dex may not make any of those 100% but it does increase the odds enough to matter. So your "1 time" is pretty much everytime you attack or are attacked.
Vit does have its advantages, too, in the form of 10-15% more survivabiliy but they're rarely a threat. I think you've killed me one time in NW so far and it was with your beloved arma but it was because a wizard ticked my charm and lowered me below 8k hp prior to you armaing. Yah, vit barbs are still a little threat but they're more for long drawn out fights, surprise armas in mass pvp when no one knows they're coming, or fights against squishies and of the 10 classes out there they're what people fear the least.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
No comment on the PvE thingie. Dex-barb is better here, usually, because the total DPS. As long as you're able to tank instances/Bosses like warsong. You loose both HP and defense by giving up vit points to dex.
Idk really about this barb though, the one you fought. As you said he didn't have chi so he couldn't use 100% Berzerker's Rage/Wrath. You also got Mighty Swing + Demon Stomp of the king / Sage Beastial Onslaught. In tiger form we have Ancestral Rage and Flesh Ream. All skills above 100% hit.
Yes, I wanted you to mention situations/fights where dex barb outweights a vit barb, not single attacks. Demon Beastial Onslaught has a 50% chance to crit already and the next skills after that for a few seconds, we don't need more crit. We certainly don't need the dex for more accuracy, you miss a skill and you'll get more chances of making it hit - your survivability won't became worse because you miss a skill.
I'd rather fear a vit barb than a str barb. Basically, arma is the only thing i'd ever fear when facing a barb, therefore its advantages.
Play smart, cast arma when your enemy suspects it the least. Or experienced enough, which no barbs other than a few barbs can do; channel arma, canceled it, your opponent panics and uses AD/Expel, repeat but cast arma and BOM!
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I haven't been hit by any bestial onslaught in 2 months, and I've been fighting barbs for a while
By which I mean bestial onslaught has consistently missed my 3.5K something evasion archer (lol too cheap to upgrade evasion buff) every time. Had a vit barb fight, the only time he hit me was with flesh ream and mighty swing. Couldn't kill him with a G15+5 bow but basically ran around him for almost 5 minutes not getting hit while the rest of the team moved on (in NW)Channels
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Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »I haven't been hit by any bestial onslaught in 2 months, and I've been fighting barbs for a while
By which I mean bestial onslaught has consistently missed my 3.5K something evasion archer (lol too cheap to upgrade evasion buff) every time. Had a vit barb fight, the only time he hit me was with flesh ream and mighty swing. Couldn't kill him with a G15+5 bow but basically ran around him for almost 5 minutes not getting hit while the rest of the team moved on (in NW)
There's a difference between skilled barbs and garbage barbs. You mentioned flesh ream, that's all I needed to hear.0 -
pure strength or pure vit, one or other, having extra dex is useless in pvp as between accuracy rings, gems, bloodbath, and 4 skills that cannot miss ever, you really dont need the dex. also, 1% crit is negligible considering that could also be about 540-ish hp instead
edit: wrong account fml oh well, still get the point0 -
pure strength or pure vit, one or other, having extra dex is useless in pvp as between accuracy rings, gems, bloodbath, and 4 skills that cannot miss ever, you really dont need the dex. also, 1% crit is negligible considering that could also be about 540-ish hp instead
edit: wrong account fml oh well, still get the point
1. as the people who know math already said, 500% of zero is still zero
2. Congrats. Your entire usefulness is reduced to 4 skills.
3. 540 HP is not even as big as damage range from mages.
4. Be forced to always lower your precious HP in order to increase HP. Stay classyChannels
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Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »1. as the people who know math already said, 500% of zero is still zero
funny how when you throw on all of the accuracy stuff mentioned you end up with more accuracy at minimum dex than most non r9r2 archers/sins (650+ dex too OP) which last i checked, is more than sufficient. hell, even without bloodbath min dex with 2 acc rings and ambers in wep still hits far more than it misses without stuff like condor or focused/tidalThe people and friends we have lost, or the dreams that have faded...never forget them! ~~ Summoner Yuna, FFX
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Heleghir - Raging Tide wrote: »funny how when you throw on all of the accuracy stuff mentioned you end up with more accuracy at minimum dex than most non r9r2 archers/sins (650+ dex too OP) which last i checked, is more than sufficient. hell, even without bloodbath min dex with 2 acc rings and ambers in wep still hits far more than it misses without stuff like condor or focused/tidal
That's why. You lower your damage output so you can actually hit something.
160 base with 2 acc rings and golden soulgems in r9r wep and demon bloodbath gets 10K accuracy. Except you don't need ambers to function
http://pwcalc.com/95dc5af1b4f4308fChannels
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Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »That's why. You lower your damage output so you can actually hit something.
160 base with 2 acc rings and golden soulgems in r9r wep and demon bloodbath gets 10K accuracy. Except you don't need ****ty ambers; you can put garnet gems.
Well i do think you can hardly discuss the virtues of dex for your accuracy and then say you dont need *** ambers. Acc shards are by far the most effective way to increase your accuracy.
Doesnt take away ofcourse that the poster you replied to was simply telling things that are false. A base dex barb does not get acc like an archer.0 -
Heleghir - Raging Tide wrote: »funny how when you throw on all of the accuracy stuff mentioned you end up with more accuracy at minimum dex than most non r9r2 archers/sins (650+ dex too OP) which last i checked, is more than sufficient. hell, even without bloodbath min dex with 2 acc rings and ambers in wep still hits far more than it misses without stuff like condor or focused/tidal
http://pwcalc.com/482fc777251f805d
2 golden soulgems
demon bloodbath
2X acc rings
5400 acc
http://pwcalc.com/d11569f31818582b me, with only 1 +50% acc ring and 487 dex
5844 acc
lawlChannels
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Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »1. as the people who know math already said, 500% of zero is still zero
2. Congrats. Your entire usefulness is reduced to 4 skills.
3. 540 HP is not even as big as damage range from mages.
4. Be forced to always lower your precious HP in order to increase HP. Stay classy
What are you trying to prove / tell us?
1. You don't have 0 accuracy so that's irrelevant
2. And why would that be the case? If you going to prove something, at least prove that you have some knowledge of a vit barb. Some here seems to think that we miss every skill because of "low" base accuracy.
3. Lol, it's especially vs mages those 540 HP do matter. Both becuase of the damage a mage deals (yes, it's noticeable) and cuz of higher damage with arma. Every HP do matter regardless of what it seems like.0 -
Heleghir - Raging Tide wrote: »funny how when you throw on all of the accuracy stuff mentioned you end up with more accuracy at minimum dex than most non r9r2 archers/sins (650+ dex too OP) which last i checked, is more than sufficient. hell, even without bloodbath min dex with 2 acc rings and ambers in wep still hits far more than it misses without stuff like condor or focused/tidal
/10charChannels
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And then they said, you need dex to take down good-geared archers, can't do it as a vit barb!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzeqNAXDris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPqaOIJX36Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGu3yOs_yq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDP87i6RPN4
And those are pretty old videos, imagine how it is now lol. All of them are better geared than me, some by far.0 -
Saw an arma miss in the first minute lol
No one said you can't; all we say is that more dex makes it a hell lot easier
and lol, those are old; archer didn't even have leapsChannels
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Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »Saw an arma miss in the first minute lol
No one said you can't; all we say is that more dex makes it a hell lot easier
and lol, those are old; archer didn't even have leaps
It's easier, how? You do less damage with arma, is it easier to kill an archer when you deal less damage?0 -
FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »It's easier, how? You do less damage with arma, is it easier to kill an archer when you deal less damage?
Watched 1 minute of the first video. 9 misses in the first minute, including an arma.
Here's how I'm thinking. Zero vit vs 200 vit is like 14% hp at endgame, so about 10% stronger arma. Strength build vs dex/str build will have the same hp. Vit build will have a little more survivability, but give up a significant amount of damage from lacking weapon shards and stat points. Dex builds have a small gap in both damage and survivability but have significantly higher accuracy.
Vit builds seem gimped the most by lack of attack shards, and forced use of bloodbath (or turning it on and off in battle).
For dex build we're talking 20-40 dex points, not the 160-200 points I mentioned above comparing aps build to vit build (I suggest aps for pve, but not pvp). Its like 3% endgame hp to go from 60dex to 100 dex, which seems worth it for accuracy and the ability to shard for damage.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Even if you give up 20-40 vit points into dex points it won't change the fact that your damage is still low, too low to kill a good-geared archer. Therefore no meaning to add dex just for the accuracy. Me as a vit barb don't care if I miss a few skills, sometimes it's even positive. It's all about timing, if you keep missing + low damage you have an easier time to calculate your tactic 10 seconds forward when you should arma (at~60%).
Also, there are no archers who can survive Devour + Tagling Mire - Arma from a vit barb. I don't see why the misses bother you so much, mostly I use skills to gain chi and/or look at my opponent's HP so I can time arma properly. My HP is already high with all vit points in it so that's never a problem, apart from a dex barb where you significantly loose HP and Defense.0 -
What are you even talking about? I think you're responding without reading posts.
My previous post:FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »Even if you give up 20-40 vit points into dex points it won't change the fact that your damage is still low, too low to kill a good-geared archer.
3% difference in endgame hp. That's about 2% difference in arma strength, lol. Wow, huge difference.Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Its like 3% endgame hp to go from 60dex to 100 dex, which seems worth it for accuracy and the ability to shard for damage.FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »Therefore no meaning to add dex just for the accuracy. Me as a vit barb don't care if I miss a few skills, sometimes it's even positive. It's all about timing, if you keep missing + low damage you have an easier time to calculate your tactic 10 seconds forward when you should arma
Lol... just lol. Another good tactic to get them to 50.01% hp before their charm ticks is to unequip a weapon, ask them to sit still, and nudge them slightly until they're right where you want them, then arma. Sorry, 10 seconds of missing and a lifetime of low dd isn't considered an advantage.FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »Also, there are no archers who can survive Devour + Tagling Mire - Arma from a vit barb.
Yessy does about 4 times in your video before you get a lucky (whats that! Dex ftw?) crit! I understand much of barb, and all HA endgame pk, is based around surviving until you can get a zerk crit, or chain together zerks and crits 4 or 5 or 6 lucky times in a row. Thats not really a skill, but oh well. If you're relying on 1 skill, crits, and zerks, then you should also stat towards that 1 skill landing and critting.
100 dex barb~ +10 refines, vit shards= 42296 hpFkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary wrote: »a dex barb where you significantly loose HP and Defense.
60 dex barb~+10 refines, vit shards, same setup= 43452 hp.
Pure Str barb~Same everything, just threw it in to compare. Stats of all the builds are a little weird since I used by own engravings and I use a G13 Lunar cape, but concept is the same.
1150 hp difference. A dex barb only has 2.7% less hp, compared to 30% more accuracy (with both having amber shards) and 2% crit. Consider use of Arma is also going to involve chi and mana, the difference between a dex arma and a vit arma is going to be around 2-2.5%, lol.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »1150 hp difference. A dex barb only has 2.8% less hp, compared to 30% more accuracy (with both having amber shards) and 2% crit. Consider use of Arma is also going to involve chi and mana, the difference between a dex arma and a vit arma is going to be around 2-2.5%, lol.
numbers? what's that? herp derp you must stat all points in vit, even one missed point makes you squishy as hell.
you are really making him a favor with keeping those amber shardsb:chuckleyou only purge once #yopo0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »you are really making him a favor with keeping those amber shardsb:chuckle
Lol, yah. I didn't want to compare a vit barbs 960 accuracy without ambers to a dex barb. Just the 40 dex gives 67% more accuracy. But no pure vit barb would shard garnets and I wanted to keep the builds similar so I gave both the ambers. Otherwise I'd have to get into giving a vit barb ambers and pointing out the dex barb using garnets and having more dph... Just gets messy and I tried to compare even.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »What are you even talking about? I think you're responding without reading posts.
My previous post:
3% difference in endgame hp. That's about 2% difference in arma strength, lol. Wow, huge difference.
Both arma and better survivability. What does dex contribute? That you get to hit your target more often congratz. To what end? The end will always end up with an arma whatsoever. As mentioned, your damage will still suck so even if you get to hit 10 skills instead of missing 10 skills it won't be enough except if you're unimaginably lucky with zerk/crits. It's more about to make USE of your stat-points.
Lol... just lol. Another good tactic to get them to 50.01% hp before their charm ticks is to unequip a weapon, ask them to sit still, and nudge them slightly until they're right where you want them, then arma. Sorry, 10 seconds of missing and a lifetime of low dd isn't considered an advantage.
You don't know anything but assays during a battle now do you? I'm trying to be real here while you're being sarcastic. 10 seconds of a few missing skills and hits, so? Lifetime of low dd? Yeah you're right, lets add some dex! If you think that would increase your damage i mean... Are you considering to kill your enemy (archer) with just multiply single spells that will hit a few times more? Good luck.
Yessy does about 4 times in your video before you get a lucky (whats that! Dex ftw?) crit! I understand much of barb, and all HA endgame pk, is based around surviving until you can get a zerk crit, or chain together zerks and crits 4 or 5 or 6 lucky times in a row. Thats not really a skill, but oh well. If you're relying on 1 skill, crits, and zerks, then you should also stat towards that 1 skill landing and critting.
Lucky crit? I'm a demon barb with demon Bestial Onslaught. 50% crit totally lucky i know right! First of all you can't chain that many skills together because an archer won't stand there and ''simply'' tank a barb. Yes, I am relying on 1 skill. But tell me, why would I even care about stat towards that skill to make it land? Is it mandatory to make the fights end up quick or is it to win? I can arma pretty much all the time because:
I'm a vit barb and I can tank. Bestial Rage = thanks for the chi back.
I'm a vit barb and I'm prepared for a back-up plan if I'd arma and miss since that's their possibility to counter me (= charm tick).
Also, I'm a demon barb. You want me to stat towards that skill so it's critting. Are you telling me that 50% and 52% (in case 100 dex) makes a big difference? 50% crit as a full vit barb, why would I even give a damn about my crit-rate as a demon barb when I stat my points?
100 dex barb~ +10 refines, vit shards= 42296 hp
60 dex barb~+10 refines, vit shards, same setup= 43452 hp.
Pure Str barb~Same everything, just threw it in to compare. Stats of all the builds are a little weird since I used by own engravings and I use a G13 Lunar cape, but concept is the same.
1150 hp difference. A dex barb only has 2.7% less hp, compared to 30% more accuracy (with both having amber shards) and 2% crit. Consider use of Arma is also going to involve chi and mana, the difference between a dex arma and a vit arma is going to be around 2-2.5%, lol.
Tell me again:
Are you planning to kill your enemy (archer) by using multiply single spells? Then stat your barb with STR points.
or
Are you planning to kill your enemy (archer) by using one single spell (arma)? Make use of it then and stat your barb with VIT points.
Your way of describing a barb's battle tells me it's important to end a fight quickly instead of effective. I rather make use of my stat points instead of wasting them into something that contributes to nothing, dex in this case. Your percent calculations tells me nothing but a few % loss of what's actually useful.
In redz0 -
HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »As you can see, there is much disagreement over what to do with the points beyond your gear requirements.
Much disagreement i think means all options are viable (except magic but there is no disagreement about that) and thus you choose for yourself
I think its time to quote myself from page 1 0
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