Vortex-obsession in instances

Desdi - Sanctuary · June 2013

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Most people seem to forget that venomancers can lure, but that doesn't keep me from hauling out a cactopod or eldergoth and luring the boss while others are putzing around zealing mobs (especially in Seat of Torment where avenues of approach to most of the bosses are very constricted.)

Well, I was only pointing out that fact. I still pull in squads when I get the chance to but that's mainly because I do it myself not because someone actually asked me or expected me to do it b:surrender /offtopic

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · June 2013

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why this is in general discussion? Because the issue I'm gonna talk about seems not to be only seeker mentality - whole squad seems to except it.

Lately I've noticed seekers have become more and more "vortex-obsessed". They do not shatter bosses, they do not trigger soulsever or NSW and also neglec the fact that lvl 11 barb devour overwrits soulsever status. They just roll in vortex through the entire boss and also set it for only 3-4 mobs. They do not drop it even in instances like BH 69 where they're tanking and could QPQ the debuff off.
I actually saw someone vortex a single shade in FC. Seriously.

Wouldn't it be more useful for the whole squad to do the debuffs? There also would be better DPS options especially for 100+ seekers who get Sacrificial Slash and what not. Where is Ion Spike and metal skills? Where is the OMFGPRO-zerk-CRIT from Gemini?

And why OTHER SQUAD MEMBERS tell seeker to vortex when they're actually debuffing?

on a serious note....
Thats what you get when most pple level up in fcc. Buying head rooms, what else is the seeker suppose to do other than pull, vortex, and pewpew disappearing heads

I wouldnt say their 'obsessed' but rather, things other than vortex wasnt in their diet when they grew up.

im personally impressed at all the hardworking seekers out there, or at least the ones on the forum, mostly cause im lazy as hell and couldnt be bothered to press more than 3 buttons if i can help it lol. (i did lv legitly and i could combo but **** it)

leech autoattack.

afk vortex internet surfing

blaufox2411 · June 2013

Sigh....the people who say you * can * do more dmg with other skills as a vortex does...

Did you calculate the dmg if you do it all within 1 sec? Or did you count the channeling time?
Gemini slash ?

How long exactly does it take for the sin with G16 gear in ur squad to kill the boss?
I say asking a seeker in ur squad for the debuffs is noob. You say its exactly why you ask him.
Tell me this
2 sins = double dmg
Seekers debuff, does NOT double the dmg of the first sin....

Seekers are the best aoe dmg wise toons in this game. Since they can tank + do good damage. And other toons cant do both.
But if your running bh 100's (except for lunar maybe) a seeker is useless...not enough tankyness(unless ur running with full G16 R9R3 gear) not enough single target damage...debuffs. wow we kill it 1 sec faster. And with another sin we take it down 15 sec faster...

ps: the skills of seekers are great if your talking about pvp...but since this thread is about pvm, saying ur skill chain does more dmg. Try do a mini boss and see which kills it the faster way....start vortex right away...or start using other skills..

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Did you calculate the dmg if you do it all within 1 sec? Or did you count the channeling time?
Gemini slash ?

did you?

blaufox2411 wrote: »

How long exactly does it take for the sin with G16 gear in ur squad to kill the boss?
I say asking a seeker in ur squad for the debuffs is noob. You say its exactly why you ask him.
Tell me this
2 sins = double dmg
Seekers debuff, does NOT double the dmg of the first sin....

Seekers are the best aoe dmg wise toons in this game. Since they can tank + do good damage. And other toons cant do both.
But if your running bh 100's (except for lunar maybe) a seeker is useless...not enough tankyness(unless ur running with full G16 R9R3 gear) not enough single target damage...debuffs. wow we kill it 1 sec faster. And with another sin we take it down 15 sec faster...

ps: the skills of seekers are great if your talking about pvp...but since this thread is about pvm, saying ur skill chain does more dmg. Try do a mini boss and see which kills it the faster way....start vortex right away...or start using other skills..

seeker debuffs boost the dmg of casters.
there is also the reliable -10def lvl debuff that affects your beloved sin damage.
and since your damage, vortex or not, is not so significant according to you, one would wonder why you vortex and then QQ about mana cost. which is kinda lol in the first place.

blaufox2411 · June 2013

sigh. You read only what you wish to read potatohead...

How long are you actually debuffing?

People here are talking about the fact vortexxing as the only thing a seeker can do...

I'm just saying that after debuffing, vortexxing is the highest dps a seeker can do. Combo's wont be higher especially if its more than 1 mob. And with a boss, its pretty much the same...

My level 100 seeker with **** *** gear and G15 wep. Does the same dmg on every aoe skill I have, stagstrike and such lets state on a random boss it does 5k dmg. Then the vortex which does 3 times dmg every time. Does 3 times 5k damage. So unless the skills has less than 1 channeling a second. Vortex = easy, swift, and does equal damage. And in my personal note. More damage because I'm european and have lags, so pressing 500 buttons within 5 sec will fail sometimes..

Colum - Raging Tide · June 2013

I already sowe this combo before and it does include vortex, but not ONLY vortex. If you can prove that vortex only does more dmg than this combo, go ahead and put the numbers here so everyone can see it.

soulsever + shatter + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + crimson soul powder + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade afinity + gemini + edged blur + vortex + frenzy + 30 secs + get out of vortex + northern sky waltz + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade affinity + staggering strike + edged blur + cloud eruption + send pet/vortex + frenzy/extreme poison + repeat + repeat + repeat + repeat

Does anyone have any other neat combos?

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

sigh. You read only what you wish to read potatohead...

How long are you actually debuffing?

People here are talking about the fact vortexxing as the only thing a seeker can do...

I'm just saying that after debuffing, vortexxing is the highest dps a seeker can do. Combo's wont be higher especially if its more than 1 mob. And with a boss, its pretty much the same...

My level 100 seeker with **** *** gear and G15 wep. Does the same dmg on every aoe skill I have, stagstrike and such lets state on a random boss it does 5k dmg. Then the vortex which does 3 times dmg every time. Does 3 times 5k damage. So unless the skills has less than 1 channeling a second. Vortex = easy, swift, and does equal damage. And in my personal note. More damage because I'm european and have lags, so pressing 500 buttons within 5 sec will fail sometimes..

You're going to make me do it aren't you? Tonight, before I sit down and start playing, and before I start getting ready for NW, I'll sit down with a abacus and do the math on the skills. It will take a lot of calculations, and won't be anywhere near as simple as my last calculation on Vortex damage was, but just to prove you wrong, without a shred of doubt, I'll do it.
I won't even use the super-grouping chains with weapon swaps and such. I'll just use a standard cycle that you could practically throw into a macro. (Although, just for kicks, I might throw the numbers together on IHaxJoo's damage combo as well. Assuming I have time.)

Any decent seeker that knows how to play won't vortex because the bosses will die faster. If you're doing groups of mobs, vortex may be a good idea, it may not be. That's entirely situational. (Which is mostly what playing a seeker is about, situational playstyle. You play differently and use skills differently, depending on the situation at hand. This is apparently too complex of an idea for most players though.)

If you don't know how to be effective for the situation at hand, you're not an effective player. Personally, if you're not going to even attempt to truly master the class you've chosen to play, why play it at all?

BTW, I'll be using my current 98 Seeker as a base with his existing gear, and I may additionally throw in numbers for him at 100, with his G16 gear and re-statted attribute points.

Edit: Just for reference, here's the base build that I'm going with. I could make an imaginary build for where I plan to be soon, but I've already shared personal experiences with this build where it sits right now, so I'll use that rather than a bloated comparison.

Also, this is a LOT more involved that I initially intended. It's going to take me half the night just to assemble the chains and work out what the formulas are going to be initially. I'll be using the same chains that I normally use in battles to hold aggro and deal the most damage. (Although I may discover better combos and will post my findings with them as well.)
Once I have the base data set entered into Excel, it will be easier to calculate multiple combinations. I'll also get together with dizzieness on the combos and macro sets he uses, and will likely post those results as well.

Edit:Edit: Here's the spreadsheet that currently contains the base damage numbers I'll be using in the formulas. Something that occurred to me while making this... These are pure numbers. It's not going to be counting the additional damage dealt by proc debuffs, or by attack/defense levels. I will probably expand the chart tomorrow to include numbers with additional damage from the proc debuffs so that we can at least get a more accurate assessment of that. If I have the time, and the energy to go digging through some of Asterelle's data on Attack and Defense levels, I may be able to come up with some rudimentary numbers for that as well.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · June 2013

too bad pwi doesnt allow a real time dps calculator like some other game add ons

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

too bad pwi doesnt allow a real time dps calculator like some other game add ons

IKR, or the aggro meter. I haven't found any private servers with these kinds of plugins yet either, so it may be a limitation in available data to create such a thing, or simply a limitation in our understanding of the source code.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Just wow to you people....
Yes vortex is a VERY lazy skill. But in seekerland there just isnt a way to do more dmg....
If your not using vortex when theres a boss, or more than 2-3 mobs...your a noob...

Gemini slash? Are you kidding me? It does 3 times the dmg from 1 vortex round...BUT...how much channeling time? How much cooldown?

Read the first three pages, there are plenty of ways to do more dmg. Especially when combined with either Blade Affinity, Sacrifical Slash, and your stances.

With Blade Affinity you can often hit 5-6 stronger aoes in about 6 seconds, including getting the bonus damage and debuff from the Soulsever proc. That's enough to kill most groups of mobs, or entire waves in delta. Especially if you are able to focus that all into the debuff time period of HFs and Tangling Mires. Vortex only attacks attacks once every 1.5 seconds, which is pretty slow for your aoe skills, but its benefit is it's continuous so it catches up somewhere around 20-25 seconds of aoeing.

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Sigh....the people who say you * can * do more dmg with other skills as a vortex does...

Did you calculate the dmg if you do it all within 1 sec? Or did you count the channeling time?
Gemini slash ?

We're calculating the damage assuming we're opening with Blade Afinity. That reduces channeling of Gemini Slash to almost nothing (-85%, less with r9 ring and other gear). So we're primarily looking at cast time and a burst of 6-8 damage seconds, followed by a much slower casting time once BA has worn off.

Many may include the 10% Soulsever damage boost.

Many may include a 10-50 attack level boost from Sacrificial Strike. Against a single target that would include QpQing the debuff of 20-40 def levels to your opponent.

blaufox2411 wrote: »

How long exactly does it take for the sin with G16 gear in ur squad to kill the boss?
I say asking a seeker in ur squad for the debuffs is noob. You say its exactly why you ask him.
Tell me this
2 sins = double dmg
Seekers debuff, does NOT double the dmg of the first sin....

Okay, 20% Northern Sky Walts debuff. 40% Sacrificial Strike Debuff. That's 60% more damage right there, add it to HF and thats 120% more damage. Got a veno in squad amping for 30% more and the sin Subseaing for another 30% more? Now the seeker buffs are providing 203% more damage for the sin. Plus Tangling Mire. Plus the damage the seeker is dealing. Plus 50% damage to any phys metal skills. Lol, 2 DDs may give you 200% damage but when you combine debuffs you can get entire squads doing 700% damage.

Fastest Vana run I ever did was a 4 man squad and 2 of us dual clienting. I was BM and seeker, someone else was sin and veno, and 2 other sins. About a 4.5minute run. Only time my BM ever apsed over 200k on a [?] boss and that was with G15s.

Combining debuffs and spike damage is OP. Vortex is nice low damage over time that adds up but it doesn't help your squads dd and it doesn't utilize focused debuff time periods with burst damage.

Neferhotep - Lost City · June 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Fastest Vana run I ever did was a 4 man squad and 2 of us dual clienting. I was BM and seeker, someone else was sin and veno, and 2 other sins. About a 4.5minute run. Only time my BM ever apsed over 200k on a [?] boss and that was with G15s.

Combining debuffs and spike damage is OP. Vortex is nice low damage over time that adds up but it doesn't help your squads dd and it doesn't utilize focused debuff time periods with burst damage.

How is it a 4 man squad when the there were 3 sins, a veno, a seeker and a bm? I think a 4 man squad is made of 4 characters in squad, not with 4 ppl behind the chars. Otherwise, someone who uses his sin, seeker and bm to clear fc would be soloing it right xD ?

Anyway, +1 to the rest but i think the main problem is that many people playing a seeker played a bm or barb before, and think they just needs 3 skills to max and the rest is just decoration. Because with every other melee class you just need like 3 skills and can **** the enemy to death, and seeker skills actually DO lots of damage unlike bms or sins.
In the end, seekers are Mages with HAs

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

Neferhotep - Lost City wrote: »

How is it a 4 man squad when the there were 3 sins, a veno, a seeker and a bm? I think a 4 man squad is made of 4 characters in squad, not with 4 ppl behind the chars. Otherwise, someone who uses his sin, seeker and bm to clear fc would be soloing it right xD ?

Anyway, +1 to the rest but i think the main problem is that many people playing a seeker played a bm or barb before, and think they just needs 3 skills to max and the rest is just decoration. Because with every other melee class you just need like 3 skills and can **** the enemy to death, and seeker skills actually DO lots of damage unlike bms or sins.
In the end, seekers are Mages with HAs

-removed-

Anyways, you're right. I meant 4 players and we brought 2 alts to open and use as debuffers. It was a 6 man squad with 4 players.

Had something interesting happen in faction chat the other day. Someone asked if they were to r9t3 a char for pk, which would be better? A BM or a seeker? The top BM in our faction and myself (on bm) both said Seeker. The other BMs reasoning being that seekers have better defenses and harder attacks. Its impressive when the Seat boss anti aps, my sin apses for about 1.8 (I normally Subsea and skill spam), my BM skill hits for 30k, and my seeker can hit for 50-100k average. Seekers really do have OP attacks, especially when chained right.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · June 2013

a part of me is wondering why all the fuss over bosses that could be killed in a minute or so, with or without vortex >_> honestly we arent in THAT much of a hurry to kill it off are we?

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

a part of me is wondering why all the fuss over bosses that could be killed in a minute or so, with or without vortex >_> honestly we arent in THAT much of a hurry to kill it off are we?

IKR...
I've seen people refuse to be in my squads just because we didn't have a BM and a Sin. Never mind that with the debuffs from the Veno, Seeker, and R9rrr Archer it wouldn't' have made any difference.

Usually the run goes faster too because we don't waste as much time on the mobs groups, and end up spending about the same amount of time on the bosses.

Still working on the hard data, had a busy weekend and wasn't able to do all the processing on the times, still have a couple of layers to add to the chart as well, and I messed up the numbers for Edged Blur, it should be 4x what it is.

Daruvial - Sanctuary · June 2013

why do people keep making these threads.. damn cant you people figure it out for yourself wether vortex or skill spamming does more damage?

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

Daruvial - Sanctuary wrote: »

why do people keep making these threads.. damn cant you people figure it out for yourself wether vortex or skill spamming does more damage?

No, they can't. It requires thinking, and actual work, which most players apparently suck at.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear · June 2013

if i tank boss in sot uhhhhh im gonna do vortex after debuffs..case closed lol,the dmg with s3 sword is great and it holds aggro and yeah..keeps me alive surely sooo well.Its sooo much better than spamming skills that hit boss maybe for 5-10k dmg..wow,when my vortex is hitting 20-40+k normal hits.So plz stop busting on the vortex and complaining about nothing..cleric,weakling.

its kinda like people crying about clerics using spam healing aoe..lol i bet you clerics do that alot.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · June 2013

You don't need a degree in rocket science to play Seeker correctly.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · June 2013

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't need a degree in rocket science to play Seeker correctly.

just an open mind b:pleased

Vesemr - Sanctuary · June 2013

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I hate it when a certain squad-member doesn't utilize the debuffs and support skills they have that could make instance runs that much faster/safer, be they Sins who don't Rib Strike/Subsea, Seekers who wont Shatter/Minuet-Gemini, Barbs who won't Devour/Frighten...BMs who wont HF...

All for the sake of Auto-Attacking, Macroing or Vortexing...

lol I know right!
Everytime I'm on my alt and I've got seeker in squad I saw shatters maybe twice..
Anyway I'm too tired to ask sins or seekers to put debuffs on bosses.. They always know better.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · June 2013

Vesemr - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol I know right!
Everytime I'm on my alt and I've got seeker in squad I saw shatters maybe twice..
Anyway I'm too tired to ask sins or seekers to put debuffs on bosses.. They always know better.

if the tank can take the extra damage there is no point in rib strike

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if the tank can take the extra damage there is no point in rib strike

Well for starters, it's a nice thing to save the tank a bit of a repair bill if you can.

Maybe I should charge Sins that don't use it extra...b:chuckle

As far as the data sheet goes... It's a work in progress, and I just haven't had a lot of free time.

D_E_V_I_L - Lost City · July 2013

Im sorry, if a seeker is doing nothing but vortexing in a grp they arent playing a seeker at all... the debuffs (shatter) make me wanna play seeker alone then u add all the other skills in the mix, self heals, teleport stuns , edged blur (i love this skill), water metal fire phys debuffs etc, just an awesome class to play... specially the effects... vortex's effects suck and I cant wait to get into morai and try that wolf spirit skill reminds me of WoW archer skill....

Zymari - Archosaur · July 2013

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

I already sowe this combo before and it does include vortex, but not ONLY vortex. If you can prove that vortex only does more dmg than this combo, go ahead and put the numbers here so everyone can see it.

Does anyone have any other neat combos?

This is nice and all (if you have said skills and rerolled weapon) but most don't. Also, YOU ARE USING 30+ skills/weapon changes in combination in order to do a little bit more damage than what vortex would have done. Is it really worth it.....probably not.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · July 2013

Zymari - Archosaur wrote: »

This is nice and all (if you have said skills and rerolled weapon) but most don't. Also, YOU ARE USING 30+ skills/weapon changes in combination in order to do a little bit more damage than what vortex would have done. Is it really worth it.....probably not.

I'll have to aggreeb:chuckle

btw the combo was:

soulsever + shatter + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + crimson soul powder + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade afinity + gemini + edged blur + vortex + frenzy + 30 secs + get out of vortex + northern sky waltz + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade affinity + staggering strike + edged blur + cloud eruption + send pet/vortex + frenzy/extreme poison + repeat + repeat + repeat + repeat

but I cannot really see how you can repeat repeat repeat that....

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · July 2013

Zymari - Archosaur wrote: »

This is nice and all (if you have said skills and rerolled weapon) but most don't. Also, YOU ARE USING 30+ skills/weapon changes in combination in order to do a little bit more damage than what vortex would have done. Is it really worth it.....probably not.

The point to using the combos is to increase the damage of the squad, not just yourself.

PC is down atm. With luck I'll be back to working on the chart soon.

Kalmiah - Raging Tide · July 2013

To be honest it will become natural when you practice to use long combos. If you really don't have the skills for that... I don't know what to say.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 · July 2013

Kitty was in FC, once again. Had a seeker that vortex'd every other group from the beginning, including first shade and adds. Probably would have vortex'd every group if Kitty hadn't killed the non-vortex'd groups first on her psy. Reason for that vortex-happiness: It does so much damage.

Kitty felt so hurt about seeing vortex being abused like that and left squad after first boss. Kitty means...seriously, vortexing basically every mob running past?!? That took away Kitty's mood for playing for some time... f:shame

Liveena - Heavens Tear · August 2013

Have to agree that some people are just lazy to debuff bosses and rely on auto-attack + spark to kill bosses. I've been playing seeker lately and what I like about this class is the large amount of support skills it have (squad buff and debuff for mobs) not to mention its tanking capability.

For vortexing obsession, I have to admit I always use it on bosses, but not after I put heart shatter or activating soulsever on boss. After I just see whether I should use any other stance or stop vortex to use other skills such as edge blur in case boss can stun.

However so far I still failed in learning when and how to summon to use the angel pet b:surrender.

Rarely I see seeker use debuff on boss, most of them just auto-attack + spark and some are vortex-minded.

But I have to confess, with four seeker in squad, its hard not ask them to make a vortex party at boss b:laugh

mrcharlytoo · October 2013

What if you are running a BH for a bunch of lowish level people?

I tell them to stand back out of distance of AOE, debuff boss then vortex.

Well, that's after I let them rush in and die at least once.

Vortex-obsession in instances

Comments

Categories