Vortex-obsession in instances

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide · June 2013

Why this is in general discussion? Because the issue I'm gonna talk about seems not to be only seeker mentality - whole squad seems to except it.

Lately I've noticed seekers have become more and more "vortex-obsessed". They do not shatter bosses, they do not trigger soulsever or NSW and also neglec the fact that lvl 11 barb devour overwrits soulsever status. They just roll in vortex through the entire boss and also set it for only 3-4 mobs. They do not drop it even in instances like BH 69 where they're tanking and could QPQ the debuff off.
I actually saw someone vortex a single shade in FC. Seriously.

Wouldn't it be more useful for the whole squad to do the debuffs? There also would be better DPS options especially for 100+ seekers who get Sacrificial Slash and what not. Where is Ion Spike and metal skills? Where is the OMFGPRO-zerk-CRIT from Gemini?

And why OTHER SQUAD MEMBERS tell seeker to vortex when they're actually debuffing?

Untamed_pain - Archosaur · June 2013

If all seekers do is vortex it's called lazy *** and maybe that's all they know and can't play the seeker well.

Trust me there are plenty of fail seekers.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · June 2013

I hate it when a certain squad-member doesn't utilize the debuffs and support skills they have that could make instance runs that much faster/safer, be they Sins who don't Rib Strike/Subsea, Seekers who wont Shatter/Minuet-Gemini, Barbs who won't Devour/Frighten...BMs who wont HF...

All for the sake of Auto-Attacking, Macroing or Vortexing...

MagicEmpress - Lost City · June 2013

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I hate it when a certain squad-member doesn't utilize the debuffs and support skills they have that could make instance runs that much faster/safer, be they Sins who don't Rib Strike/Subsea, Seekers who wont Shatter/Minuet-Gemini, Barbs who won't Devour/Frighten...BMs who wont HF...

All for the sake of Auto-Attacking, Macroing or Vortexing...

b:bye From a Wizzy who's been Undine Striking every boss since I got the skill way back in 2010.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · June 2013

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide wrote: »

also neglec the fact that lvl 11 barb devour overwrits soulsever status.

how do they neglet that if they vortex?

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · June 2013

MagicEmpress - Lost City wrote: »

b:bye From a Wizzy who's been Undine Striking every boss since I got the skill way back in 2010.

Then you're doing it right~

Neferhotep - Lost City · June 2013

i dont see many seekers using vortex too often, but usually people telling me to Vortex everytime as i wouldnt have any other AoEs lol. Well, players nowadays only want seekers and sins. Really when im in a normal fc squad they prefer a seeker over a barb, even with other AoE dds..

They dont even see archers as AoE dds or thinking that a barb could pull as well and it would be even safer with a barb, no. I had a "french" squad on my archer with 2 archers, veno, cleric and bm and the bm were searching for a sin because he said he NEEDS to do the seeker job since we dont have one and he needs bloodpaint for it. I tell him that we have 4 classes in squad that couldnt get BP anyway and a barb would be a lot safer. I told them that actually we archers are doing the "seekers" job, not him. But no, they think you need a seeker and sin and every other class is just decoration. I left and joined some friends who hadnt a seeker or sin in squad, and with 5 ppl we were done in a half our while the french squad was still searching for a sin.

Or even funnier, if theyre pulling two groups and wanting the seeker to Vortex although there is a big pull after it where they need to have Vortex and holy path. And then they dont even wanna wait for the seeker to get chi.

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide · June 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how do they neglet that if they vortex?

By only othering to trigger soulsever and then rolling. Instantly barb' devour overwrit the boss's atk lvl reduce and the de lvl reduce alone is pretty.. useless compared to NSW.

There are usually two types of fail seekers

1. Ones who do nothing but vortex
2. Ones who trigger soulsever and after that vortex

i dont see many seekers using vortex too often, but usually people telling me to Vortex everytime as i wouldnt have any other AoEs lol. Well, players nowadays only want seekers and sins. Really when im in a normal fc squad they prefer a seeker over a barb, even with other AoE dds..

They dont even see archers as AoE dds or thinking that a barb could pull as well and it would be even safer with a barb, no. I had a "french" squad on my archer with 2 archers, veno, cleric and bm and the bm were searching for a sin because he said he NEEDS to do the seeker job since we dont have one and he needs bloodpaint for it. I tell him that we have 4 classes in squad that couldnt get BP anyway and a barb would be a lot safer. I told them that actually we archers are doing the "seekers" job, not him. But no, they think you need a seeker and sin and every other class is just decoration. I left and joined some friends who hadnt a seeker or sin in squad, and with 5 ppl we were done in a half our while the french squad was still searching for a sin.

Or even funnier, if theyre pulling two groups and wanting the seeker to Vortex although there is a big pull after it where they need to have Vortex and holy path. And then they dont even wanna wait for the seeker to get chi.

Your server must be lucky then or I must be really unlucky because for some reason I rarely come across seeker who wouldnt vortex everything. They usually ay it's because " vortex is best dps skill"

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 · June 2013

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide wrote: »

By only othering to trigger soulsever and then rolling. Instantly barb' devour overwrit the boss's atk lvl reduce and the de lvl reduce alone is pretty.. useless compared to NSW.

There are usually two types of fail seekers

1. Ones who do nothing but vortex
2. Ones who trigger soulsever and after that vortex

Your server must be lucky then or I must be really unlucky because for some reason I rarely come across seeker who wouldnt vortex everything. They usually ay it's because " vortex is best dps skill"

First of all, if other DDs have totally crappy DPS, that 10% attack add from using NSW instead of just soulsevering doesn't do nearly as much to squad's total dmg as seeker vortexing after debuffing and doing third of squad's total dmg instead of 10%. Kitty vortex'd some bosses in her seeker's FCs because sins were badly geared and other squad was mostly debuffers and her zerksword thus did even half or moar of squad's total dmg at times. But to even that to be useful, vortex has to be timed right to not waste 2 sparks just for vortex to be interrupted by sleep couple secs later.

But still, seeker who doesn't know when to vortex and when not is totally fail seeker. And on RT...there's invasion of these fail seekers. Kitty's seen maybe 2 seekers FCing during past couple months at least somehow knowing their class, none that knew that to Kitty's extent. Kitty's been trying to teach them at least how to use shatters and stances...but it seems to be useless to try.foxy alone

MagicEmpress - Lost City wrote: »

b:bye From a Wizzy who's been Undine Striking every boss since I got the skill way back in 2010.

That's how to do. Ever since Kitty got Undine Strike on her wizzie when starting it's FCs Kitty's been raging at wizzies that dun have it around 89 and told them to get it ASAP ASAP ASAP!f:fume
It makes wizzies at least 1/3 more effective.f:cute

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide · June 2013

Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »

First of all, if other DDs have totally crappy DPS, that 10% attack add from using NSW instead of just soulsevering doesn't do nearly as much to squad's total dmg as seeker vortexing after debuffing and doing third of squad's total dmg instead of 10%. Kitty vortex'd some bosses in her seeker's FCs because sins were badly geared and other squad was mostly debuffers and her zerksword thus did even half or moar of squad's total dmg at times. But to even that to be useful, vortex has to be timed right to not waste 2 sparks just for vortex to be interrupted by sleep couple secs later.

In endgame content usually ANY squadset deals more damage than single seeker vortexing. Also seekers themselves can DD harder w/o vortex than with it if they know what they're doing. In my opinion seeker never was and will be a dps-based class. In normal situations seeker should not be the best DD of the squad to begin with - it's a debuff class with nice AOEs and high single hits while rest of their attacks are at the medium range (low-high for zerk-users). Also seekers actually -tank- better by spamming battousai than vortexing. I have experienced this several times with my friends.

Desdi - Sanctuary · June 2013

I agree with a lot of posts here >.>
Seekers have some nice debuffs and other skills to assist/support the squad; vortex is not everything..but to me it's pretty similar to Assassins macro-APSing without using Rib Strike/Subsea, Clerics not debuffing and using seals when they aren't even healing or the squad doesn't need heals etc.

Xainou - Sanctuary · June 2013

Well, if you like wasting mp food instead of helping your squad with your debuffs...

trands · June 2013

It's only the natural flow of things. First, specific roles were needed. Then it became classes. After that, it became gear. Now it's reduced to specific skills. On top of that, vortex + auto-pot orb = pro seeker even when afk.

Don't try to understand it, there are just to many ppl like that. Once a box is created, it's almost impossible to get them out of it. I gave up on trying to explain. Even with several r999 casters in squad most seekers wouldn't even bother with their water/wood and fire/earth amps. The ones on my server that actually do use those amps are all on my fl.

That's 5 seekers till now.

Levantica - Raging Tide · June 2013

I hate when seekers dont vortex when they have to and all squad dies because they dont wanna consume blue pots so be happy that they vortex instead of complain lol

Desdi - Sanctuary · June 2013

Levantica - Raging Tide wrote: »

I hate when seekers dont vortex when they have to and all squad dies because they dont wanna consume blue pots so be happy that they vortex instead of complain lol

That's the other extreme side of the argument b:chuckle but yeah, those exist too.

ovenusarmanio · June 2013

Since this is a discussion about Seekers and specifically the merits of a seeker skill versus their debuffs, I'm going to move this to the seeker sub-forum. If you have any questions, please shoot me a PM.

Korpinsulka - Raging Tide · June 2013

And to everyone that claim vortex is best dmg combo, see below:

Here's how to deal the most damage while also making sure all your squadmates do the max damage possible. Works against any boss, any environment, anything anywhere anytime.

soulsever + shatter + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + crimson soul powder + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade afinity + gemini + edged blur + vortex + frenzy + 30 secs + get out of vortex + northern sky waltz + r8r sword + def lvl blessing + sac slash + qpq + r9/g16 + attack lvl blessing + blade affinity + staggering strike + edged blur + cloud eruption + send pet/vortex + frenzy/extreme poison + repeat + repeat + repeat + repeat

Throw in blood-thirsty blitz every now and then and even barbs will have trouble holding aggro then. Only sins or bms with aps can take aggro from us in this case.
You're welcome.

That was IHaxJoo's damage comboI found now.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · June 2013

i use alot of vortex (when no stun mobs)

im lazy and i know it

sometimes im so lazy i just auto attack and let everyone do all the work b:pleased dont even holy path to catch up

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · June 2013

I've been saying I hate vortex-only seekers for a while now. Vortex seems to bypass the aggro generated by an APS class though, so that's one good thing about it. But still, I don't like the idea of relying on that to keep aggro.

I always start off with Shatter + NSW + any shatter that corresponds with whatever class is in my party(mind for venos and mystics, soul for wizards and trying to time it with their skills). then I just spam battousai until I have to activate NSW again.

At least that's what I would do in a party situation. Haven't had those in months.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

Had one the other day where I got reamed because I wasn't only vortexing in a Delta 3. There was a G16 +10 wizard who setup DB way in front of bubble right near where the mobs where spawning but still in bubble then afkd, so there really was no pulling room nor any need to pull. The issue was they were instantly grabbing aggro then their boyfriend or whatever was yelling at me I should be vortexing to take aggro from them.

Here's the thing, vortex is good when you have at least 5 or so mobs, and plan on aoeing for longer than about 20 seconds. Against a single target or a short burst of aoes skill spam is better. In a squad situation, like delta, its much more beneficial for me to Soul Sever->Gemini Slash the mobs so everyone gets the boost in DD. So mobs would come in I'd Ion Spike, Dark Cloud, Stalagstrike, (SS should be set by now), Blade Affinity->Gemini, Stalag, Dark Cloud->Vortex. Those 7 aoes take roughly 10 seconds and you get the debuff in them. In that time about 80% of mobs die in the first 3 stages of Delta. It also uses 1 mp pot.

So they flipped out since "good seekers" know how to vortex. Knowing the boyfriend rushed a seeker and gave it his +10-+12 BMs gear I made a few comments on what "good seekers" actually do but wasn't going to take the time to explain how a metal debuff, Soul Sever debuff, and 7 aoes was greater than the 5 attacks that vortex would have delivered.

Still, it crazy urks me how many seekers only vortex on bosses or vortex on mob pulls that die in 2-3 aoes. Saw a seeker vortex on 3 Aba mobs the other day while there were two sins to aps them dead in about .5 seconds.

Edit: My point is that part of the issue with seekers vortexing everything is they get pressure from the community. People who haven't really looked at seekers thinking vortex is good dd. I had a 5.3k hp sin with G16 +8 daggers who refused to rib strike steal aggro and die, then called me a fail seeker for not vortexing and keeping aggro, even though I had both SoulSever and NSW debuffs active, my shatters active, and was QpQing Sacrificial Strike for about -40 def levels on the boss. Public pressure makes seekers vortex, but the general public are also idiots.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · June 2013

Sins like that also need to be reminded that they have Shadow Escape. With near infinite sparking, that 1 spark to use that skill isn't going to be missed.

Neferhotep - Lost City · June 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edit: My point is that part of the issue with seekers vortexing everything is they get pressure from the community. People who haven't really looked at seekers thinking vortex is good dd. I had a 5.3k hp sin with G16 +8 daggers who refused to rib strike steal aggro and die, then called me a fail seeker for not vortexing and keeping aggro, even though I had both SoulSever and NSW debuffs active, my shatters active, and was QpQing Sacrificial Strike for about -40 def levels on the boss. Public pressure makes seekers vortex, but the general public are also idiots.

Its stupid enough for a sin wanting the seeker to keep aggro when both are same geared. I dont know, even with vortex everything above 2.5 aps is able to steal aggro from me ... i usually give up tanking with sins in squad before we even start hitting a boss xD

But yeah, other AoEs are also good but in big pulls the puller can just pull the mobs in Vortex if the seeker has bp and can be lazy. With smaller groups normal AoEs are also great. I used to parchbladed dance - gemini- bladed favor - stagal. If timed right with bms AoE stun, mobs can be stunned very long with that and are still debuffed.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · June 2013

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sins like that also need to be reminded that they have Shadow Escape. With near infinite sparking, that 1 spark to use that skill isn't going to be missed.

shadow escape gives a spark, doesn't take one.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · June 2013

I stand corrected.

blaufox2411 · June 2013

Just wow to you people....
Yes vortex is a VERY lazy skill. But in seekerland there just isnt a way to do more dmg....
If your not using vortex when theres a boss, or more than 2-3 mobs...your a noob...

Gemini slash? Are you kidding me? It does 3 times the dmg from 1 vortex round...BUT...how much channeling time? How much cooldown?
Vortex does unlimited amount of time...an insane dps...it makes all other skills be useless, especially since seekers normal attacks are so slow, even with a blade/sword the attack rate is still very slow....its not like u want to do regular attacks...go make a sin then...

Seekers dmg come from skills, and there is just not a skill who can compete, not even a combo of skills that compete with the vortex one....

And no I dont use vortex when I'm attacking just 1 shade...
but in 80 % of the times, ur attacking a group or a boss...

I find seekers pretty good, but also pretty useless. Also very expensive to do dungeons...
I hear so many people whining about the free fc's seekers get....but do they ever mention how many crabs or especially herbs seekers use in an instance? While sin's or archers or w/e other toons just auto attack and dont use anything?

What is the benefit of a level 100 bh like abba/warsong from a seeker? in comparision to other toons?
Archers/wiz/psy/Sins: insane dps(on solo target)
Barb: tank, aggro skills
cleric/mystic: heal
veno: luring
bm: stuns, if aps at single target dps
seeker: aoe? abba wined...no use...dmg? alot less on single target than a sin...
debuff? not really why u ask a seeker to come...
I dont see purpose for a seeker other than aoe aggro...and that costs herbs...so if u level for free from 75-100...ull pay that in herbs in the 1000000 instances ur gonna do afterwards...

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Just wow to you people....
Yes vortex is a VERY lazy skill. But in seekerland there just isnt a way to do more dmg....
If your not using vortex when theres a boss, or more than 2-3 mobs...your a noob...

Gemini slash? Are you kidding me? It does 3 times the dmg from 1 vortex round...BUT...how much channeling time? How much cooldown?
Vortex does unlimited amount of time...an insane dps...it makes all other skills be useless, especially since seekers normal attacks are so slow, even with a blade/sword the attack rate is still very slow....its not like u want to do regular attacks...go make a sin then...

Seekers dmg come from skills, and there is just not a skill who can compete, not even a combo of skills that compete with the vortex one....

And no I dont use vortex when I'm attacking just 1 shade...
but in 80 % of the times, ur attacking a group or a boss...

I find seekers pretty good, but also pretty useless. Also very expensive to do dungeons...
I hear so many people whining about the free fc's seekers get....but do they ever mention how many crabs or especially herbs seekers use in an instance? While sin's or archers or w/e other toons just auto attack and dont use anything?

What is the benefit of a level 100 bh like abba/warsong from a seeker? in comparision to other toons?
Archers/wiz/psy/Sins: insane dps(on solo target)
Barb: tank, aggro skills
cleric/mystic: heal
veno: luring
bm: stuns, if aps at single target dps
seeker: aoe? abba wined...no use...dmg? alot less on single target than a sin...
debuff? not really why u ask a seeker to come...
I dont see purpose for a seeker other than aoe aggro...and that costs herbs...so if u level for free from 75-100...ull pay that in herbs in the 1000000 instances ur gonna do afterwards...

You should come and watch dizzieness on the Sanctuary server. He'll show you exactly how to do more damage without using Vortex. It's all about using your skills effectively, and in the right chains.

With my 98 Seeker that has almost no Sage skills yet, I can consistently hold aggro in BH79/89 from barbs, Wizards, and BM's near my level without the use of Vortex. And I'm still using the Divine Comprehension swords at +6.
It's all about having the proper build, and using your skill chains effectively. (I currently have almost 100 VIT. Imagine what it will be like when I restat that.)

Vortex is good in some cases, but most of the time, you, and your squad, do more damage without it.

Titoto - Raging Tide_1375997119 · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Just wow to you people....
Yes vortex is a VERY lazy skill. But in seekerland there just isnt a way to do more dmg....
If your not using vortex when theres a boss, or more than 2-3 mobs...your a noob...

Im still getting use to playing my seeker and i can prbly play it better than u, i'm thinking ur one of those seekers tht jus run in on boss without debuffs and jus vortex till it's dead. If so good luck with tht

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

debuff? not really why u ask a seeker to come...

that's exactly why we asked seekers to come in caster nirvys. b:bye

Desdi - Sanctuary · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

What is the benefit of a level 100 bh like abba/warsong from a seeker? in comparision to other toons?
Archers/wiz/psy/Sins: insane dps(on solo target)
Barb: tank, aggro skills
cleric/mystic: heal
veno: luring
bm: stuns, if aps at single target dps
seeker: aoe? abba wined...no use...dmg? alot less on single target than a sin...
debuff? not really why u ask a seeker to come...

Venomancer luring? Anybody can lure with a zeal genie..I can't even remember the last time anyone asked my Venomancer to lure or needed me to lure something. Venomancers are wanted for their debuffs in squads.

Seekers are also wanted for their debuffs; that's the only reason anyone would take one in Caster Nirvana back in the days. Their debuffs are pretty nice and handy.

Seekers can also be back-up or main tanks and I think someone posted in this thread a while ago various combinations on how to maximize your damage output as a Seeker. Vortex really isn't your only or best option.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · June 2013

blaufox2411 wrote: »

Just wow to you people....
Yes vortex is a VERY lazy skill. But in seekerland there just isnt a way to do more dmg....
If your not using vortex when theres a boss, or more than 2-3 mobs...your a noob...

Gemini slash? Are you kidding me? It does 3 times the dmg from 1 vortex round...BUT...how much channeling time? How much cooldown?
Vortex does unlimited amount of time...an insane dps...it makes all other skills be useless, especially since seekers normal attacks are so slow, even with a blade/sword the attack rate is still very slow....its not like u want to do regular attacks...go make a sin then...

Seekers dmg come from skills, and there is just not a skill who can compete, not even a combo of skills that compete with the vortex one....

And no I dont use vortex when I'm attacking just 1 shade...
but in 80 % of the times, ur attacking a group or a boss...

I find seekers pretty good, but also pretty useless. Also very expensive to do dungeons...
I hear so many people whining about the free fc's seekers get....but do they ever mention how many crabs or especially herbs seekers use in an instance? While sin's or archers or w/e other toons just auto attack and dont use anything?

I'm a noob then. Because I've NEVER used Vortex on any boss. My priority is keeping Eye of the Northern Sky+Spirit Bore active, and the shatter skills if boss has a self purge of sorts.

There IS a combo that can destroy Vortex in damage >_>. If you were seriously playing seeker you would not even say such silly things. Vortex comes at the disadvantage that it can't get long term benefit from Spirit Bore OR Eye of the Northern Sky, UNLESS you are paired with another seeker(unlikely).

Dungeons are expensive if once again you are spamming vortex.. which really you shouldn't. Compared to all skills, in the grand scheme of things, the damage is just whack. With a delay in between revolutions, you're better off spamming other skills. For example.. in the time that vortex does say 60,000 on the first cycle, you've already done 100,000 from 5 other skills.

And herbs last a while. Buy 1,000 and not have to buy anymore for months. For MP pots(the inventory master kind) especially. Cleric should be healing you anyway.

Not to mention(and this can actually get someone killed if you haven't established aggro already) vortex has a medium start up time. Oh and still have to wait for it actually do the first 3 series of damage b:surrender

You shouldn't use Gemini Slash without Blade Affinity. But I agree Gemini's startup puts it behind vortex.

Seekers maybe useless in situations where everyone wants to attack 549569456 a second. But with our defense crippling debuffs and skill enchancing skills(haha) we're quite useful thankyouverymuch.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · June 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venomancer luring? Anybody can lure with a zeal genie..I can't even remember the last time anyone asked my Venomancer to lure or needed me to lure something. Venomancers are wanted for their debuffs in squads.

Most people seem to forget that venomancers can lure, but that doesn't keep me from hauling out a cactopod or eldergoth and luring the boss while others are putzing around zealing mobs (especially in Seat of Torment where avenues of approach to most of the bosses are very constricted.)

Vortex-obsession in instances

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