G13 claw-G16 Claw

Zymari - Archosaur
Zymari - Archosaur Posts: 62 Arc User
edited July 2013 in Blademaster
I currently have G13 claws. Just turned 100 and am now 5aps with demon spark/3.33 base and no tome. I don't see a Love or Pangu in my near future.

My dilemma; I have all the mats to make G16 claw but have a strong chance of not getting -int. What should I do? Is it worth taking the aps hit and chancing on no -int until I can reroll to get it?
Post edited by Zymari - Archosaur on
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Comments

  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Chances to get -int on the G16 is pretty reasonable. IIRC, you get -int on average one out of 9 rerolls. That is the same as flopping a set when you play texas holdem with a pair in your hand !! :D

    Of course that is an everage. It means you are likely to get -int in 1 to 20 rerolls. With bad luck it might be more than 20 but your luck has to be pretty terrible not to get in say 40 or so rerolls.

    G16 with 1x -int will give you 4APS and significantly outperform your G13. Without -int you get only 3.33 APS which is not enough to keep up your spark unless you can use your genie to generate chi.

    If possible, i would take another claw to start rerolling your G16 until you get -int while using your G13 until then. If that is not possible and you need this G13, i would probably just go for it and use a genie to provide the needed chi. You will probably make a little step back because not only do you go to 3.33 APS, but also will you of course not refine your weapon much before you got the -int on it. If you can use the genie for sparking i think it should be bearable though.

    to minimise (or eliminate if lucky with the rerolling) the amount of time you spend with a 3.33 attack, i would first collect the stuff needed to reroll a bunch of times before starting the whole thing.
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    4-5aps= 25% increase in damage

    40 ATK levels + much higher base = much more, at the cost of less chi, slower sparks

    Also means more aggro, more likely to take hits.

    You sound like a fresh level 100 BM. Are you using Deicides? Keep them; make TT G15 and farm for mold, EOO, badges until you can get ~10 rerolls at least on your G16. Turn G15 into G16, if you roll a good roll keep it, sell deicides. Should attempt not to take aggro until your gear is more up there
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  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Ummm, you can farm a free pan gu from deltas. Have your friends help out, give them some money or have them do it for free. I always farm pan gus for my alts to use. It might take you 1 week to 3 months, but can be done, just have to be patient.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ummm, you can farm a free pan gu from deltas. Have your friends help out, give them some money or have them do it for free. I always farm pan gus for my alts to use. It might take you 1 week to 3 months, but can be done, just have to be patient.

    Where do you farm 972 the mystical tome pages ?
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    40 ATK levels + much higher base = much more, at the cost of less chi, slower sparks
    Best answer is right there. G16 hits so much harder than G13 (not sure if this is G13 Lunar aka Deicides or G13 Vana, but G16 is higher than both) that the 25% higher aps of G13 is still less dd than the G16s.

    However, once you're 5 aps, going to 4 aps is kind of a pain in the butt. Especially if you're good at supporting your squad. We're great DDs but we're mostly there for our HF, and 5 aps allows us to keep triple spark and HF consistantly. Dropping down to 4 aps means we either HF or permaspark. If you HF and spark you won't make it back to 3 sparks and you'll spend some time attacking at 2.86 unsparked. A pain.

    Odds of -int on G16 is 1:7. It costs 60 badges to craft and 20 to reroll. I wouldn't go G16 untill I had 160-200 badges saved up. Everytime you reroll your t3 claws it removes refines (if above +3) and shards, so once you make them you prolly don't want to refine them very high until you have -int on them. I'd make my claws T1 Nirvana if they aren't already and use those to farm badges.

    And mystical tome fragments are rewards for Delta 7, 8, and 9. You then craft my mystical tome pages from the boutique agent using tokens. Ave cost is around 70m per G6 tome, but doing your own deltas you can knock it down to about 40m. Need 3x G6 tomes to make a Pan Gu.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    arent the pages 20 tokens a piece ?
    needing almost 1000 of em would mean almost 200m already ?
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »
    arent the pages 20 tokens a piece ?
    needing almost 1000 of em would mean almost 200m already ?

    276 pages required required for 2 of the 3 books, this needs 324. So at about 10k (11k?) per token its 276 x 20 x 10000 = 55.2m in mystical tome pages costs, then 207 mystical tome frags needed also. So yes, at 10k a token its 175.2m for all the pages, then whatever tome frags costs. Guess I undercut it saying the pages were 40m of the approx. 70m cost.

    What most people do is since Rouge and Red Lips requires more pages and frags they use a script of fate for that one and the other two they farm frags and make pages.

    Ohhh! Rereading what you were saying you were pointing out that pages can't really be "farmed" only the frags.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ohhh! Rereading what you were saying you were pointing out that pages can't really be "farmed" only the frags.

    Ye, dont you wonder for how many of his alts he farmed a "free" tome ? b:chuckle
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    One. period, if it's unbound and one for each account with a stash stone if bound?
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Axes hit much harder and slower too. Skill spamming with axes isn't that bad for chi gain either.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    thumbs wrote: »
    Axes hit much harder and slower too. Skill spamming with axes isn't that bad for chi gain either.

    Huh you dont understand APS ? But you have 1000+ posts. Its impossible. Does not compute....
  • Rubybeard - Archosaur
    Rubybeard - Archosaur Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    if you dont mind doing lots of FW get g16, to be honest i regretted getting a g16, it takes lot of reroll and lot of FW before i get the int. And in my opinion, claw is only for chi, i dont use claw in NW,TW etc at all.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Rubybeard - Archosaur wrote: »
    if you dont mind doing lots of FW get g16, to be honest i regretted getting a g16, it takes lot of reroll and lot of FW before i get the int. And in my opinion, claw is only for chi, i dont use claw in NW,TW etc at all.

    In pvp its still great for chi since just about everything we do costs chi. Also for dps they still out dd axes so for a well geared opponent like a barb I'll switch to aps gear during a stunlock. I can build 4 sparks while stunlocking someone without utilizing my genie, and claws take hp off faster than R9t3 axes when you are 3.33. The problem is to do that you have to go aps gear which...sucks. Against a barb or solo opponent I'll go aps gear since I can stunlock, but I have to continuously tab around to make sure no one else in gonna come in and range me.

    Yes, claws still have plenty of uses in pvp.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »
    Ye, dont you wonder for how many of his alts he farmed a "free" tome ? b:chuckle

    Farmed two for myself, and two for a friend, the past year.

    Each player gets about 16 on average each run, 16x6 = 96 a run. That is 7 runs to get 1 tome, just the fragments. We tend to do 2~5 extra runs, and sell the extra tome frags to reduce the cost for the pages.

    The above only works when us 3~4 pool all our tome fragments for one person. During 2x i tend to treasure quests. That also gets me 40~360 tome fragments, depending on how religious i was about my maps.

    Solo farming this will take 30~35 runs, that is way too many full deltas, especially now with no coin drops.

    My farming differs from others, i work with 2~4 people in all my farming, so i can do the above, most people won't agree to it, it is too greedy the way i farm.

    But buying a tome now is much cheaper, get a pan gu for 200m~230m. We farmed them when they were about 280~320m. Since the break even cost is so close, not much point in farming them these days. But if the person has 0 coins for this, the option still exists.
    Rubybeard - Archosaur wrote: »
    if you dont mind doing lots of FW get g16, to be honest i regretted getting a g16, it takes lot of reroll and lot of FW before i get the int. And in my opinion, claw is only for chi, i dont use claw in NW,TW etc at all.

    That is different pvp styles, i use claws on most 1v1 targets in nw, tw, even 2vs1. My best combo against mean barbs. Use claws to get chi, and try to purge, and hope no one attacks me. Once the barb is purged, stun lock and use dbb+spark, that usually kills most barbs with 20~30k hp. Assuming they don't have stuff going for them. Some barbs are skilled and it is hard to kill them even at low hp.

    I often use claws on r93rd cast people, especially wizzy, it makes them bounce the opposite way if they are attacking our flag carrier, i use blade hurl next and i exit that area asap. As people mention here, different players have different ways to pvp, each has its pros and cons. I would say, do try out claws, they are super fun against players with less than 14k hp. You can kill them in one stun lock at 2~2.5 aps.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I often use claws on r93rd cast people, especially wizzy,

    What'dju just say? So you're the one apsing all the casters and giving them perma antistun, holypath, and constant purifies while I try to kill them.

    For AA classes use axes. A zerk or chained zerks will finish them off. For HA (and some LA chars with decent gear) you will need both chi and dps which means claws. You're not gonna get the dps from axes to finish a decent seeker or barb unless you zerk/zerkcrit like 6 times int a row and the odds of that...
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    What'dju just say? So you're the one apsing all the casters and giving them perma antistun, holypath, and constant purifies while I try to kill them.

    Looks like my ghost did not get the memo b:surrender.

    *they paid me 10m each to aps them b:dirty*

    I use it in fights when wizzy are OP and can one shot the flag person. The morai skill that pushes them back, i use that against them. But i haven't done nw for the past 3 months now.
  • Nalvaes - Raging Tide
    Nalvaes - Raging Tide Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    To be honest...I'm just gonna +12 my Windpour claws and ignore T3/G15/G16 unless I get a mold...-.10 int on claws+demon cyclone heel f:grin
    Chaos is an ally not something to avoid...After all, how can your foes stand up to you if they have no idea what your next move will be?


    Gear and weapons may make strong opponents but even a strong foe can be felled by the right tactics...
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Nalvaes - Raging Tide wrote: »
    To be honest...I'm just gonna +12 my Windpour claws and ignore T3/G15/G16 unless I get a mold...-.10 int on claws+demon cyclone heel f:grin

    demon cyclone is worthless

    I have +12 2 socker garn gem deicides from the old days as my claws.

    Trust me G 16 is worth it
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Nalvaes - Raging Tide wrote: »
    To be honest...I'm just gonna +12 my Windpour claws and ignore T3/G15/G16 unless I get a mold...-.10 int on claws+demon cyclone heel f:grin

    I'd have to do the math but +12 G13s would be like +8 or +9 G16s. For the 400m ish it'd take to +12 some G13s you could find a pair of double -int G16s and have a weapon actually worth +12ing but up to you.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'd have to do the math but +12 G13s would be like +8 or +9 G16s. For the 400m ish it'd take to +12 some G13s you could find a pair of double -int G16s and have a weapon actually worth +12ing but up to you.

    g 13 is only 75 base damage higher than decides if memory serves. May be 100
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Nalvaes - Raging Tide
    Nalvaes - Raging Tide Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    demon cyclone is worthless

    I have +12 2 socker garn gem deicides from the old days as my claws.

    Trust me G 16 is worth it

    Demon cyclone heel 20% increase in attack speed, demon spark is 25% increase in attack speed....Demon heel saves me demon sparks so I can go aps and spam HF/GS/MSS f:meh
    Chaos is an ally not something to avoid...After all, how can your foes stand up to you if they have no idea what your next move will be?


    Gear and weapons may make strong opponents but even a strong foe can be felled by the right tactics...
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Nalvaes - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Demon cyclone heel 20% increase in attack speed, demon spark is 25% increase in attack speed....Demon heel saves me demon sparks so I can go aps and spam HF/GS/MSS f:meh

    25% is the break point for -.1 interval at 2.5 aps base or higher.

    anything lower is .-05

    demon and level 10 cyclone heel have the exact same effect for all intents and purposes.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Zymari - Archosaur
    Zymari - Archosaur Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Demon cyclone is far from worthless.. clearly you don't understand aps. Aps are rounded up or down at certain points..
    at 2.5 aps, demon spark and demon cyclone give 3.33 aps..
    at 2.86 aps. demon spark gives 4 aps while demon cyclone gives 3.33aps. It's all in how it's rounded.
    At 3.33 aps, demon spark gives 5aps while demon cyclone gives 4aps.. you don't get the same result with lvl 10 cyclone.

    Again I repeat.. Demon Cyclone Heel is far from useless.
  • Rubybeard - Archosaur
    Rubybeard - Archosaur Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    get deicide with good refines, farm badges to reroll your g16 untill you get int problem solved.

    im currently using deicide +8 with 2 lvl 9 atk shards. my damage is the same as g16 +1. but it kill faster cause im 5 aps with deicide
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Zymari - Archosaur wrote: »
    Demon cyclone is far from worthless.. clearly you don't understand aps. Aps are rounded up or down at certain points..
    at 2.5 aps, demon spark and demon cyclone give 3.33 aps..
    at 2.86 aps. demon spark gives 4 aps while demon cyclone gives 3.33aps. It's all in how it's rounded.
    At 3.33 aps, demon spark gives 5aps while demon cyclone gives 4aps.. you don't get the same result with lvl 10 cyclone.

    Again I repeat.. Demon Cyclone Heel is far from useless.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    The only use of demon cyclone is in conjunction with purge pole.

    edit: I figure I'll actually explain this.

    Interval in combination with speed buffs will round up and down at certain points (2.22 vs 2.5 both spark to 2.86 being the classic example) however interval will only ever have increasing returns until you hit the 5 aps limit while attack speed buffs will only ever have diminishing returns in terms of interval gained after rounding. There's a pretty chart with pictures saved somewhere waaay back in the bm/archer archives.

    25% is the break point at 2.86 or higher, 25% = -.1 anything lower will give -.05.

    it warms the cockles of my heart when people try to actually correct me on game mechanics.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    (I'm not gonna get in the middle of this...I'm not gonna get in the middle of this... I'm not gonna get in the middle of this...)

    Then Josh used the word "cockles" and I got swept away.

    You can use the chart below to find the nearest seconds/attack benchmark.

    Seconds per Attack.....APS........25% Spark......20% D. Cyclone.....15% S. Cyclone......12% Cyclone lvl 10
    .7.............................1.43..........2.00. ..............1.82..................1.62.......... ..............1.62......
    .65...........................1.54..........2.00.. .............2.00..................1.82........... .............1.82......
    .6.............................1.67..........2.22. ..............2.00..................2.00.......... ..............1.82......
    .55...........................1.82..........2.50.. .............2.22..................2.22........... .............2.00......
    .5.............................2.00..........2.86. ..............2.50..................2.50.......... ..............2.22......
    .45............................2.22..........2.86. ..............2.86..................2.50.......... ..............2.50......
    .4.............................2.50.........3.33.. .............3.33..................2.86........... .............2.86......
    .35...........................2.86..........4.00.. .............3.33..................3.33........... .............3.33......
    .3............................3.33..........5.00.. .............4.00..................4.00........... .............4.00......
    .25...........................4.00..........5.00.. .............5.00..................5.00........... .............5.00......
    .2............................5.00..........5.00.. .............5.00..................5.00........... .............5.00......


    There are two different arguments here. Demon Spark v demon Cylone and Demon Cyclone vs lvl 10 Cyclone.

    Demon Cyclone is not as good as demon spark at base intervals 1.43, 1.67, 1.82, 2.0, 2.86, and 3.33 but is exactly as good at 1.54, 2.22, and 2.5.

    Demon Cyclone is better than level 10 cyclone for everything below 2.86 aps, but anything above the 12% level 10 cyclone and the 20% demon cyclone give the same boost *points to Josh saying exactly that in post #23 right before Zymari told him he didn't understand aps, lol*.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    agree with saku there, most people are 2.86~4 base in their aps gear. When i use deicides, 4 aps base, lvl 8 cyclone takes me to 5 aps, at 3.33 i go to 4, and 2.86 i go to 3.33.

    As for the original question, no clue b:victory
  • Zymari - Archosaur
    Zymari - Archosaur Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I was incorrect about the specifics but my point was still accurate. Demon cyclone isn't a worthless skill. It is better than lvl10 right up until 2.86 aps. So Joshie boy can go play with his cockles. sorry, Im no willing to waste my time searching through past posts just to find a chart someone posted 3 years ago.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Zymari - Archosaur wrote: »
    I was incorrect about the specifics but my point was still accurate. Demon cyclone isn't a worthless skill. It is better than lvl10 right up until 2.86 aps. So Joshie boy can go play with his cockles. sorry, Im no willing to waste my time searching through past posts just to find a chart someone posted 3 years ago.

    I posted the chart, and its the top sticky in the bm forums. Not too hard to find, I hope. And +12 G13s comes in around +7 G16s.

    This is why I said you two were having two different arguments. You keep commenting on the difference between D Spark and D Cyclone, while Josh is saying D Cyclone is worthless and comparing D Cyclone and lvl 10 Cyclone. His argument is valid since if you're bothering to aps then you should be at least 2.86 base, and if you are 2.86 aps base then lvl 10 and Demon have the same results.

    You keep arguing Demon Spark vs Cyclone, but that's not what he was arguing.

    I wouldn't say D Cyclone is worthless, though. As far as aoes its pretty hard hitting and lvl 11 is a nice boost in damage.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • X_Rays - Sanctuary
    X_Rays - Sanctuary Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I was not going to say anything until I heard someone said demon cyclone is worthless. It is not. If you're rank 9 and want to use fist sometimes in pvp then with demon cyclone you only need 2.50 base aps (switch 3 pieces of gear) to reach 3.33 while for sage you need 2.86 aps base (switch 4 pieces of gear) to reach 3.33. That means sage requires 1 additional aps gear...which takes away the +100 strength bonus from rank 9.

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