New Veno/Barb Form Bugs

BEASTisBOSS - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Yeah... I talked to BearClaw the day the skills got released and addressed to him the issue about Sage barbs being imba yet nothing has still been done, nor does it look like something will be happening.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been a demon barb for a good old 4 years and loved it. Now that I see Sage barbs are getting the exact same damage in both forms makes me want to switch. Purely because the fact that;

IF Sage barbs are keeping the full damage whilst having the extra hp and speed gains over Demon, and gaining 20chi every 2 seconds by spamming in and out of another form - Why don't you give Demon barbs the extra 10% HP Bonus and 10% Movement speed at least as a minimum?

Also might I add to the 20chi every 2 seconds topic, In what way is giving a Sage barb that already has Master Li's Technique, Beastial Rage that lasts 20seconds (meaning this skill is being used 66% of the time they're playing their barb because it has a 30sec cooldown) and other chi skills such as Stomp of the Beast King which is a 25% chance of gaining 20 chi which has a 3 second cooldown, smart?

The way I see it is, Demon barbs are becoming overpowered by Sage barbs. All of the Demon barb skills that were set (Demon True Form, full damage in Tiger form), to being a Chi machine from HP buff, are all being put into a Sage barb. Next thing you'll know Sage Arma will give 10% extra damage as well, or onslaught will give them crit.

It feels as if the GM's are taking this matter so lightly and couldn't care much about it, when it makes sage barbs overpowered and Demon barbs near to useless. This matter as Mag mentioned about himself, also makes me furious.

PhantomEin - Lost City · May 2013

my fox wallop is like lvl3 and i can't use it after this new form lol. b:surrender

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear · May 2013

I love the fact that they boosted the sage barb. Pre-100 ITF, everyone was starting to be convinced that demon barbs were >>> sage barbs. To some extent this was true. A balance was required. Removing the damage penalty for sages, was a step in the right direction.

However the problem now is that they DID NOT achieve the balance that was desired. They have now tipped the scales in the reverse direction.

The damage penalty in itself is not a major difference and personally I think a demon barb can make up for that through a few lucky crits.

However when combined with the disparity of increased HP, defense and speed, it appears to be a rather large hole. Earlier demons sacrificed HP & defense for better damage. Now sages attain the same damage with additional HP and defenses and speed.

I believe the demon ITF does also need a boost. Personally Id say the easiest fix would be to incorporate a permanent defense level boost with it. So u get less HP and defense, but u also take less damage while sages achieve the same survivability, via slightly different means of increased HP and pdef. And both get to keep their attacks! b:victory

As for speed, give them both equal speeds.I mean seriosuly, why were they different to begin with?

As for the chi gain angle, I suspect that is a bug. Id think both cultivations should receive identical chi gains for any skill, unless the skill specifies a chi difference (for e.g. sage vs demon BKI).

BEASTisBOSS - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I believe the demon ITF does also need a boost. Personally Id say the easiest fix would be to incorporate a permanent defense level boost with it. So u get less HP and defense, but u also take less damage while sages achieve the same survivability, via slightly different means of increased HP and pdef. And both get to keep their attacks! b:victory

Not sure if you understand entirely, but when you were given the option to go down the path of either Sage or Demon, people who went Demon was entirely for Damage. Giving Sage and Demon a permanent Defense buff would not fix this in anyway. If they gave Sage a permanent Defense buff, who in their right mind would stay Demon, taking into account that they now have MORE damage than Demon barbs?

Yes that's right, MORE damage than Demon barbs. Sage barbs not only have ridiculous survival and chi options available to them atm, but they have >>MORE<< damage than Demon barbs. You can't base demon barbs doing 'more' damage than Sage barbs, because 'critical hits' are based off luck and percentages.

Demon barbs have a 75% weapon damage increase with 2% crit, Sage barbs have a 100% weapon increase. So not only have Sage got ridiculous survival options available, but now they also do more damage than demon barbs, and the reason why Sage were given the 25% weapon increase to begin with is because they lose a certain amount of it when switching into Tiger/Panda. Now that they have both 100% weapon damage in both forms, there is no question to whether Demon barbs come close to Sage barbs, because they don't in any way.

I love the fact that they boosted the sage barb. Pre-100 ITF, everyone was starting to be convinced that demon barbs were >>> sage barbs. To some extent this was true. A balance was required. Removing the damage penalty for sages, was a step in the right direction.

No, it was not a step in the right direction. Going Sage does not mean you're willing and wanting to put out ridiculous amounts of damage in every way possible. I will assure you 95% of barbs that go Sage is purely for tanking/pulling cats/soaking damage, and whatever else you might want to throw in there. Going Demon is purely for the damage, if someone went demon to soak damage/tank, they're doing it wrong.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · May 2013

PhantomEin - Lost City wrote: »

my fox wallop is like lvl3 and i can't use it after this new form lol. b:surrender

lol given the current state of fox skills your probably better off leaving it at lev 3. Most venos, even fox venos, never use it. All of the fox skills need a boost but that is another topic already discussed in several veno threads.

@BEASTisBOSS I agree with the statements about demon vs. sage barbs completely. I had a high level barb I wanted to make demon because I thought the extra damage and crit, not to mention the squad skills and relative rarity would make it fun to play. Now, I've just stopped caring about him as I don't want to add myself to the plethora of sage barbs and my veno is already a tanky sage HA fox.

I think what some people are failing to understand in this when they say the choice is still yours as to be sage or demon regardless of what others say is that this is only true when both forms are relatively balanced. If this unbalance keeps for much longer I guarantee that given the current game mentality a lot of high tier factions are going to start requiring a barb go sage or gtfo. Demons were already the target of ire since they couldn't pull catas or hold agro as well. Now it is/will soon be even worse.

As for bonuses, I don't think giving either side more bonuses will solve the issue. If they do then they need to give venos their bonuses as well, fair is fair. The lack of MP drop from going fox isn't that great to me, fox skills (save for rainbow) aren't that expensive to cast, and being sage the 35 chi is nice but I already had several chi building skills... Demon venos got the short end of the stick as well also getting only the lack of MP drop and the... -5% crit save... for 6 sec... yah, that's useful, especially since they tend to be the favorite targets of archers and sins, both of which have an insanely high crit rate. I've said it before, but I remember reading somewhere that both forms were SUPPOSED to get increased bonuses to their existing bonus set to make up for the increased damage and stats other classes are getting due to their weapons and skill boosts. Like it or not both tigers and foxes remain gimped as their damage and defense caluculations were and still are designed for a much older version of the game and neither form received much attention when the devs gave all classes a skill damage boost some time ago.

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear · May 2013

BEASTisBOSS - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not sure if you understand entirely, but when you were given the option to go down the path of either Sage or Demon, people who went Demon was entirely for Damage. Giving Sage and Demon a permanent Defense buff would not fix this in anyway. If they gave Sage a permanent Defense buff, who in their right mind would stay Demon, taking into account that they now have MORE damage than Demon barbs?

Umm, Not sure if you read what I wrote, but I asked for DEMON ITF to be buffed with a defense level boost. That way, the two skills are at least equalised.

Plus the demons def level boost would be effective against phys and mag atks (better PKer imho), wheres the sage would continue to survive against phys damage from their increased phys resistance and mag attacks with their current increased HP.

I went demon cause I loved the demon skills. Apart from sage penetrate armor, I prefer every single demon skill to sage ( I looooove the beastial onslaught b:victory).

I agree the added 30% damage in tigerform was nice, but not such a game breaker for me personally. I dont mind my sage counterparts having the same benefit, so long as I get their benefits too.

Sages always had more damage than demons in human form. Now they enjoy that in tigerform as well. Okay not such a big deal.

I still think a demon's crits will would put them not to far behind, and increased crit rate allows for higher spike damage which was always more desireable in PK situations than increased steady damage.

Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear · May 2013

This was such a minor change, I could care less. I can gain chi with my demon barb buff and so does my squad members, sage is self absorbed. b:laugh

We can go on and on forever about sage and demon on all toons. If you side by side sage and demon barb skills, demon still comes out on top by a little bit, it's called balance, this I feel was an intentional change. And to me, more power to sages, they needed it. What gets me is all the demon barbs that suddenly changed over to sage barb because of the one minor add on. Now what will really crack me up, is if demon barbs get a skill upgrade that sage doesn't. We'll see all the ones that switched over saying wth was I thinking. They make money from people changing over, money from Schisms, money from people putting coins for skill books after they already bought skills and im sure they expected people to do that. Their not stupid. Every move they make is intentional.

Give them no skills, have everyone talking about sage, people switch over, then give the skills later, demon gets something sage doesn't. Guess what, people start switching over again, more schisms, more coins from people putting gold in the game to buy the skill books again. I have every skill book they make for demon barb, there was no way I would switch over for a small change that sage got, yes small, compared to what demon already has in comparison.

Nymphali - Dreamweaver · May 2013

I do think demon tfi/panda form should give same hp and speed as sage ones.

That's a stupid and unfair advantage to sage barbs.

>.>

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2013

Nymphali - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I do think demon tfi/panda form should give same hp and speed as sage ones.

That's a stupid and unfair advantage to sage barbs.

>.>

Well, Sage and Demon are supposed to have pros and cons and different kinds of advantages over each other.

The main complaint now is that they made something that was rather balanced into something that's quite imbalanced. The same applies to the new form for the venomancers (although it's not as bad, but still).

Tannner - Archosaur · May 2013

I have come across another bug that I am honestly surprised has not appeared on the forums (maybe i'm the only one plagued by this glitch) b:shocked
When my barb is in Panda form or White tiger form randomly (more then half the time) upon death my barb will make the sound that a fox form Veno makes upon death b:surrender. It appears to not only effect me but other barbs that die sometimes make the same sound on occasion (according to my client). It occurs for me in NW and TW (dont die often elsewhere so i'm not sure about other locations). OFC it could be that I just have some glitch in my client only... but this has been occurring since my barb learned the panda form so I am more prone to believe it is a glitch caused by the new form.
(I'll prob submit a ticket regarding this in the near future but i wanted to post here in case was a problem affecting other barbs as well)

MouseKiller - Heavens Tear · May 2013

I don't think it's just you. When I kill barbs in NW they make the same sound my veno makes when I die in fox form. And, I have noticed it every time I kill a barb, which between my veno and psy is often.

Azura - Lost City · May 2013

Tannner - Archosaur wrote: »

I have come across another bug that I am honestly surprised has not appeared on the forums (maybe i'm the only one plagued by this glitch) b:shocked
When my barb is in Panda form or White tiger form randomly (more then half the time) upon death my barb will make the sound that a fox form Veno makes upon death b:surrender. It appears to not only effect me but other barbs that die sometimes make the same sound on occasion (according to my client). It occurs for me in NW and TW (dont die often elsewhere so i'm not sure about other locations). OFC it could be that I just have some glitch in my client only... but this has been occurring since my barb learned the panda form so I am more prone to believe it is a glitch caused by the new form.
(I'll prob submit a ticket regarding this in the near future but i wanted to post here in case was a problem affecting other barbs as well)

b:sweatAnd when my veno uses mo zun's taunt in fox form, she does the same sound as a barb in tiger form using some skill.

and GM's... any update about all this? Are the devs aware they messed up, and willing to correct this?

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

b:sweatAnd when my veno uses mo zun's taunt in fox form, she does the same sound as a barb in tiger form using some skill.

and GM's... any update about all this? Are the devs aware they messed up, and willing to correct this?

Same applies with Master Li's Technique for the Sages.

hexsubah · May 2013

Hello everyone,

We have recorded your concerns regarding this issue and have brought your concerns directly to the devs. They have been made aware of them. As of now, there should be fixes coming to the audio bugs involving the new forms, however we do not have an exact ETA.

For more information and additional updates to Quality Corner issues we are currently working on, please take a look at genotypist's update post.

We do value your input in helping us nail these issues. Thanks for your patience guys! b:victory

~Hex

BEASTisBOSS - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Hexsubah wrote: »

For more information and additional updates to Quality Corner issues we are currently working on, please take a look at genotypist's update post.

Zzz, of course nothing on Sage/Demon barb nerfs/buffs.

DeffyNature - Archosaur · May 2013

BEASTisBOSS - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Zzz, of course nothing on Sage/Demon barb nerfs/buffs.

Considering the update was made months ago in China and their player base was ok with it - and by ok I mean they weren't so QQ worthy to make the devs change anything (but then again, they did get a skill with the new forms at the same time) - , I highly doubt anything will be changed. Besides armor/weapon upgrades, I can't recall anything made special for our version of the game, certainly they won't code skill changes for pwi only.

Azura - Lost City · May 2013

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

Considering the update was made months ago in China and their player base was ok with it - and by ok I mean they weren't so QQ worthy to make the devs change anything (but then again, they did get a skill with the new forms at the same time) - , I highly doubt anything will be changed. Besides armor/weapon upgrades, I can't recall anything made special for our version of the game, certainly they won't code skill changes for pwi only.

How do you know they aren't upset about this change? Can you read the Chinese forums, or something? If you can please enlighten us, and tell us what's their opinion over there, because unfortunately is their opinion that matters the most.

DeffyNature - Archosaur · May 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

How do you know they aren't upset about this change? Can you read the Chinese forums, or something? If you can please enlighten us, and tell us what's their opinion over there, because unfortunately is their opinion that matters the most.

Uh, maybe I didn't explain very good; what I mean was if they were very angry with the new forms, then, in the (roughly) 4-5 months they have had the update, they could have made enough ruckus in order to persuade the devs to make the necessary changes.
Seeing that they didn't change anything, I could only assume they are either ok with the change, or the devs really don't care about their Chinese players, like they don't care about their international ones.
I wish I could read Chinese so much, I am really craving in depth details on how the upgraded pets are

.

Azura - Lost City · May 2013

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

Uh, maybe I didn't explain very good; what I mean was if they were very angry with the new forms, then, in the (roughly) 4-5 months they have had the update, they could have made enough ruckus in order to persuade the devs to make the necessary changes.
Seeing that they didn't change anything, I could only assume they are either ok with the change, or the devs really don't care about their Chinese players, like they don't care about their international ones.
I wish I could read Chinese so much, I am really craving in depth details on how the upgraded pets are .

Ok, I see. However 4-5 months is not much in wanmei's time. Right now wanmei just got out the update for veno's pet. To get a fix for this mess in cultivations, they need to 1st finish other projects/stuff they already had planned. Maybe while work on their next project, they will fix this problem and then bundle it with another expansion. Or, maybe they will finish their project 1st and then dedicate to this problem.

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2013

Yeah, Azura has a point. Consider the fact that the pet upgrade was mentioned in PWCN around November and they released it in April...that alone should be an indicator of things xD

DeffyNature - Archosaur · May 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Ok, I see. However 4-5 months is not much in wanmei's time. Right now wanmei just got out the update for veno's pet. To get a fix for this mess in cultivations, they need to 1st finish other projects/stuff they already had planned. Maybe while work on their next project, they will fix this problem and then bundle it with another expansion. Or, maybe they will finish their project 1st and then dedicate to this problem.

True, that might also be true, indeed. We'll just have to sit tight and wait b:cry .

lythraos · May 2013

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All barbs being sage vit build would be the opposite of unique, someone needs to buy a dictionary or learn to use one of the online ones. I love demon barbs, I think they provide the party with overall greater benefits than sage barbs, but many of my demon barb friends want to quit their barbs due to the lack of communication on this issue.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Because you have a sage barb?

No. Because I am a demon barb and I consider that path OP enough. It's not like we got penalized. It's only sages that got something extra. Deal with it.

Joe - Morai · May 2013

Ok stop it right here. OFC it's somewhat "unfair" that sages got 10% more HP and 10% more Speed and no penalty anymore. At least they could have increased the speed of Demons to 90% too, but that doesn't make a huge difference cept for NW maybe.

The DMG reduction was always kinda ignorable because it just made a little to no difference ever.

Besides Shapeshifting Intensity and the True Form are all sage skills far far far weaker then the demon ones. Demon Barbs are the way to go for endgame. PPL that really consider that 10% HP 10% Speed and 40% more pdef make sage barbs better are morons anyways and got little to no clue about this game or the barb class.

Let em Sages have this little advantage (:

Besides, I got both Sage and Demon Barbs and I compared them for a longer time now then most of you guys have actually played this game.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · July 2013

This thread is two months old so hopefully I won't get slammed for necroing, however I decided to bring this back up instead of creating an entirely new thread as many issues stated here have still not been addressed. (The audio bugs have and I thank you for that) I also wanted to give genotypist a specific thread to respond to instead of responding to my post on the matter in the general "State of Quality Corner" thread.

1.) It was mentioned that sage barbs do get an attack reduction but if this is true no one knows what this attack reduction is. Can you please be more specific so we know WHY sage barbs are still balanced with Demon Barbs. So far no one knows what your talking about.

2.) New veno and barb skills with new forms. This topic has unfortunatly kind of died but is still important given the new difficulty of getting the forms when compared with their lackluster benefits. It was mentioned there was a translation error and that's why the skills weren't ported. Are they still working on this? Or will the new forms remain simply "shinies" that are next to worthless in the grand scheme of things.

3.) Pet evolution, well this is a veno thread as well. Basically are there any plans for older pets to be evolvable in the future? Many venos are upset that their age old friends (and even a few of their legendarys) can't evolve. Some have even spent lots of money to make their pet viable in PvP before the update. I have seen images of other pets in evolved forms off the Chinese forum so I know the coding is there. Will it ever be implemented or should we just expect for everyone to just use a few legendary or cash shop pets?

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · July 2013

Legendary pets are cash shop pets, I think you meant rare pets. All legendary pets can evolve, just a couple of the rare pets (tabby and snow hare) can't evolve, a few of the common pets can evolve.

CaSimy - Sanctuary · July 2013

In this post under point 10 http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1608821

10) The Barb Demon Form is actually not strictly inferior to the Sage Form. I'm told that there's an attack penalty applied to the Sage Form that does not get applied to the Demon Form. In essence, Demon Form gives up speed and HP bonuses for superior offense.

However, this is what the new panda form eliminates. Sage barbs get no damage reduction......

So thanks for the follow up on this matter, but it has not been followed up correctly, neither has there been a actual response if there will be a change or that this is intended and will stay this way.

(for the trolls don't make up your own version if this was intended or not, let the admins respond to that matter with a actual answer)

snamehah · July 2013

If demon barbs knew they were going to change all of it to make Sage better they would have never went demon.. <--- sweetname lvl 101 demon barb I went demon due to better att in tiger form now sage has same damage wtf????

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · July 2013

snamehah wrote: »

If demon barbs knew they were going to change all of it to make Sage better they would have never went demon.. <--- sweetname lvl 101 demon barb I went demon due to better att in tiger form now sage has same damage wtf????

I can't understand why people keep saying this. You really only went demon for the true form skill?

Seriously, all of the demon skills are different from the sage ones. I assume the demon barbs out there must have at least liked some of the other skills in demon, and those haven't changed. I have compared the attack on sage and demon barbs in tiger form in the past and while sage did have a lesser attack, it wasn't by a huge margin. So going demon for that one skill bonus is kind of laughable.

I know a lot of barbs that went demon because they like all of the attack skills more for endgame PvP. I'm sure, despite all of this ranting, they would not switch to sage given the choice because they would lose all of those skills. You should never base your cultivation choice on one skill alone - everyone knows that PWI changes random things without warning so you are never safe with that.

I can see how the change would feel unfair and I think they should just give the HP and speed to demons, effectively making upgraded true form the same aside from the additional chi/crit bonuses. But I can't understand why so many demon barbs are whining that they would have gone sage when there are so many other skills to consider.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

Meh, I'm still iffy about the fact that Sage gets a nice bonus chi from Spirit Form but Demons get some useless buff but I can't say it's a bug and I doubt it would be changed at this point.

Reason I got iffy is because I'd except to give both sides something nice for their new "skill" but they favoured one culti over the other.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · July 2013

I have to agree that the sage/demon forms are a tad off balance with both forms currently, with the benefit clearly being with the sage cultivation (+35/20 chi per transform is better than -5% enemy crit for 6 sec any day) and that's without bringing in the sage barbs nerf removal.

As I've told many venos seeking to do the spirit fox quest (I still like the name butterfly fox is better), in all truth there is currently very little reason for doing it other than getting a nice shiny new form ( more than enough reason for some venos). Sage barbs at least get the damage boost so that's a pretty good reason right there. Its as I've said from the beginning both forms need a better reason for existing. Hoping these new skills that keep getting mentioned (and were supposed to be ported earlier) fix that issue.

New Veno/Barb Form Bugs

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