Archers Buffs - what would you change?

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · April 2013

Lets compare:

BM: 75-90% Pdef + marrows
Wizard: 120-150% Pdef + reduced chance of crit taken + arcane defense
Cleric: Plume Shell, Magic attack, defense, Mana + HP regen, Pdef
Barb: Increased max HP, Increased Physical damage, tiger/Panda form, deaden nerves
Veno: Bramble, fox form (pdef 120%)
Sin: BP, Tidal protection/focused mind, deaden nerves, chill of the deep, wolf emblem, mobile stealth.
Psychic: Soul of Vengence, Soul of Silence, Soul of Stunning/Retaliation
Seeker: Stances AKA weapon procs, Defense level buffs
Mystic: 90-100% pdef, (mini tidal protection for demons), Increased skill damage to mobs, Increased healing effects, res buff

I've heard a lot of talk about how archers are "OP".
Looking at something as simple as self buffs is indication alone for this fact to not be true without even mentioning weapon procs which I think we got the short end of the straw anyway (but could easily be fixed to allow purge on all skills and a lot of archers would be relatively more satisfied).

You know evasion sucks when barbs and pure axe bm's are hitting you through condor (50k evasion for me.)
Movement speed gets overbuffed by 1 holy path or alacrity or wings of grace so that's pretty much useless.

This is not really a QQ thread. The above was more about presenting the facts to you so you could perhaps come up with your own idea's for what we should get. What the aim of this thread should hopefully be is come up with an idea I think for some modifications.

Some people have said "make it into one unique icon so it cant get overbuffed" I still dont think this solves the problem of evasion being a pretty negligent attribute. I'd rather have evasion like a sins focused mind buff.

Perhaps the squad buff could increase the range that parties can deal damage from based on a percentage. That way archers benefit the most (and it actually makes the sage mastery a bit more useful i guess) , melee chars stay the same and casters get a small benefit.

With regards to blazing arrow.... I dont... really understand why archers get fire damage? It seems pretty random. Yeah its nice to be able to stun through phys immune and stuff.. but the only advantage i can think of fire having over the other elements is genie spark that wizards use... lul i dont even know if thats worth thinking about...*clutching at straws*
I find at end game my damage to be quite low. Perhaps if this was buffed or made to be physical damage, not so that we're broken but so it's decent damage wise it would be nice.
I dont know.. lets see what you come up with

kenpachikensai · April 2013

I was thinking our buff could increase something like Accuracy, Rage [Critical Hit] Damage, or Critical Hit Rate. It doesn't have to be exactly like below, but something similar.

Demon Wings of Protection
The majestic power of the Winged Race increases nearby squad members' evasion
by 40% for 30 minutes. Also for 600 seconds increases their speed by 15%.
The speed increase does not stack with any other effect.

Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%. Increases squad members' Critical Hit Rate by 10% for 10 minutes [stacks with other skills that increase Critical Hit Rate].

Sage Wings of Protection
The majestic power of the Winged Race increases nearby squad members' evasion by 40%
for 1 hour. Also for 600 seconds increases their speed by 15%. The speed
increase does not stack with any other effect.

Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration
to 15 minutes. Increases squad members' Accuracy by 30% for 15 minutes. Increases Rage Damage by 10% for 5 minutes.

At least with this, people may actually request for our buffs.

Decus - Dreamweaver · April 2013

This isn't 100% relevant to the point of the thread, but I am curious. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been able to stun someone through physical immunity whether using level 10 blazing or the temporary extra fire dmg from demon blazing. I've not really rigorously tested it in all scenarios, but I did try to test it vs a psy in PK and I was never able to land any dmg or CC through psy will.

EDIT: Not sure if I was just not paying attention properly when I did it the first time, or it was changed, but I tested it today and was able to stun a psy through will and expel. So ignore this \o/

Horosho - Lost City · April 2013

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This isn't 100% relevant to the point of the thread, but I am curious. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been able to stun someone through physical immunity whether using level 10 blazing or the temporary extra fire dmg from demon blazing. I've not really rigorously tested it in all scenarios, but I did try to test it vs a psy in PK and I was never able to land any dmg or CC through psy will.

When sins use cons. thorn (79 water skill) they can get thru psy immune from psychics, so EA's can get thru it too.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This isn't 100% relevant to the point of the thread, but I am curious. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been able to stun someone through physical immunity whether using level 10 blazing or the temporary extra fire dmg from demon blazing. I've not really rigorously tested it in all scenarios, but I did try to test it vs a psy in PK and I was never able to land any dmg or CC through psy will.

It sounds like it's just you, unless they changed something in a recent patch. I used to do it on my archer just fine.

Heartz - Dreamweaver · April 2013

A magic version of stone barrier, but not 120/150% tho, cos that'd be too op.. But like +50% at lvl 10 and maybe 75% sage, and demon 60% and instead a 3-5% crit add on.

Well at the very least make the evasion buff unable to be overriden.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · April 2013

1) Fix the buffs that we have
Wings of Protection needs a unique icon for combined evasion + speed that can be refreshed
Blazing Arrow needs to be able to refresh itself

2) Improve buffs that are never used
Winged Shell needs to be a % of max HP or have its chi cost removed
Galvanic Charge needs to have its effect buffed or chi cost reduced

Also Condor still feels weak compared to other temporary buffs like Psychic Will or Feral Concentration, its effect should be extended to maybe 20s or it should avoid magic damage as well.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · April 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've heard a lot of talk about how archers are "OP".
Looking at something as simple as self buffs is indication alone for this fact to not be true without even mentioning weapon procs which I think we got the short end of the straw anyway (but could easily be fixed to allow purge on all skills and a lot of archers would be relatively more satisfied).

This is a logical fallacy. I believe this is either a Faulty Generalization or a Hasty Generalization.

It is possible for a class to be "overpowered" even if they have bad self-buffs. There can be other aspects of a class to make it overpowered, and looking only at a single particular aspect to represent the whole is a logical fallacy.

If the purpose of this thread is just to explore theory-crafting about archer buffs, then that is fine. However, if the purpose of the thread is to make the claim "Archer buffs are bad, therefore Archers are not overpowered", then you need to re-examine the logical soundness of your post.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · April 2013

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is a logical fallacy. I believe this is either a Faulty Generalization or a Hasty Generalization.

It is possible for a class to be "overpowered" even if they have bad self-buffs. There can be other aspects of a class to make it overpowered, and looking only at a single particular aspect to represent the whole is a logical fallacy.

If the purpose of this thread is just to explore theory-crafting about archer buffs, then that is fine. However, if the purpose of the thread is to make the claim "Archer buffs are bad, therefore Archers are not overpowered", then you need to re-examine the logical soundness of your post.

Archers are not over powered. This is a fact.
The point of this thread is that archers buffs are lacking. It is not a hasty generalisation when you look at all the other classes. We are at a disadvantage with only our range as an advantage. Purge on a bow is the worst proc, yes we have 2 anti stuns - casters have an infinite amount with no cool down. We have the worst defenses. We have the lowest physical damage in the game due to zerk. Yes we have a high base attack and crit rate - yet so does a sin and they're much harder to kill and still can spike much higher. Yes we may have range but its almost negligent when trying to kite or whatever vs a caster. HA classes are tanky enough to deal with being kited. We are not.

Please - if you want to go on about how archers are OP - theres a thread open about this already. If you one day open your eyes and realise that we are at a disadvantage to many aspects of the game then you will realise that a few things need to be tweaked to balance our class in relation to others. The best and first place to start in my opinion is the buff. Whether it is the best place to start or should be the first is also not the topic of the thread. So please stick to the topic, dont troll or go somewhere else. This thread is about suggestions. Not flaws being pointed out in the flaws of our class. b:victory

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · April 2013

I never said Archers are overpowered. I have never given an opinion as to whether or not I believe Archers are overpowered on these forums. Please refrain making such accusations in the future.

I was criticizing your logic in the sentences I quoted, and I have quoted them again at the end of this post. Your argument can be summed up as follows:

"Archer buffs suck. Therefore, Archers are not overpowered."

This reasoning is a logical fallacy. You may or may not be right regarding whether or not Archers are overpowered in general. That is not my point. My point is that stating archers are not overpowered due to the singular fact that the archer buffs are bad is not sound reasoning.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've heard a lot of talk about how archers are "OP".
Looking at something as simple as self buffs is indication alone for this fact to not be true without even mentioning weapon procs which I think we got the short end of the straw anyway (but could easily be fixed to allow purge on all skills and a lot of archers would be relatively more satisfied).

omgomgomg123tt · April 2013

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I never said Archers are overpowered. I have never given an opinion as to whether or not I believe Archers are overpowered on these forums. Please refrain making such accusations in the future.

I was criticizing your logic in the sentences I quoted, and I have quoted them again at the end of this post. Your argument can be summed up as follows:

"Archer buffs suck. Therefore, Archers are not overpowered."

This reasoning is a logical fallacy. You may or may not be right regarding whether or not Archers are overpowered in general. That is not my point. My point is that stating archers are not overpowered due to the singular fact that the archer buffs are bad is not sound reasoning.

There's always people like this on all the good forum postb:sad. Get a hobby.

bolocactu · April 2013

Listen! Bhavyy is right he is always right.

Dylena - Raging Tide · April 2013

I've always thought that magic should be able to miss, I don't see any kind of reason why they wouldn't be able to. I've always considered most buffs for archers a sad joke and mostly don't even bother to buff myself unless I'm just doing it to gain some chi.

Something that always crossed my mind that could be beneficial for archers without crossing the line of insanity against the other classes would be a weaker buff for both magic and phys to put us on a more balanced base defense.

But I have to agree with Asterelle, maybe a good start would be to fix our current buffs that have been crappy for quite some time and possible upgrade them to match all classes and not just the physical enemies.

I still love when people PM me and ask me for a "1v1" in pk and say, selfbuffs only. It's kinda funny most people want to fight archers badly for epeen growth simply because we're the only naked class when it comes to selfbuffs. Archer's are like ranged venos with the job to purge for someone else so they can deal some real damage.

Archer's are weak cus of many reasons and their squishiness is a great reason why, I think that's what Bhavyy was referring to. We both lack damage and survivability, even as a DoT archer with +11/+12 I feel like I cause no harm to equally geared players or even players with a bit lesser gears while they eat me alive like nothing.

Nuke_Cleric - Sanctuary · April 2013

I'd like to point out that Plume Shield is not an active buff you can keep up all the time like the other classes. If you are a high DD melee/archer and catch a cleric with Plume Shield down they're most likely to get dropped before they can even react. If you were to compare accurately plume shield is more similar to WoG/Wing Shield for archers in terms of avaliability.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · April 2013

Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've always thought that magic should be able to miss, I don't see any kind of reason why they wouldn't be able to.

Yeah this is one other thing, magical attacks from archers can miss! I'm not sure about other classes, it's probably true for seekers too, but just because our magic damage is based off of physical damage doesn't mean it should be able to miss if casters can never miss using magic damage.
I just feel like of we're stuck with evasion which isn't really damage reduction it's more like all or nothing, that it should at least be better than a sins focused mind buff. It needs a higher percentage chance for hits to miss and it should be able to make magic classes miss.

Sarowz - Lost City · April 2013

○Wings of Protection
The majestic power of the Winged Race increases nearby squad members' evasion
by 40% for 30 minutes. Also for 600 seconds increases their speed by 15%.
The speed increase does not stack with any other effect.

Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%, increases your chance to avoid negative status effects by 60%, lasts 60 seconds.

●Wings of Protection
The majestic power of the Winged Race increases nearby squad members' evasion by 40%
for 1 hour. Also for 600 seconds increases their speed by 15%. The speed
increase does not stack with any other effect.

Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration
to 15 minutes, increases your chance to evade enemy skills by 40%, lasts for 60 seconds.

Сooldown reduced to 100 seconds.
Yes, I dreamed it b:surrender

sjampie · April 2013

Am happy with the current buff/skills.

Using a sage archer myself and never in the need to ask for help.
But that's just my gameplay. Think most archers depend on others too much.
Think my opinion will change soon as I'm building a demon version now.

b:chuckle

Facerolled - Raging Tide · April 2013

Nerf Teemo!

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · April 2013

Facerolled - Raging Tide wrote: »

Nerf Teemo!

+100000000000000000000000000000

b:laughb:laughb:laugh

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · April 2013

Nuke_Cleric - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd like to point out that Plume Shield is not an active buff you can keep up all the time like the other classes. If you are a high DD melee/archer and catch a cleric with Plume Shield down they're most likely to get dropped before they can even react. If you were to compare accurately plume shield is more similar to WoG/Wing Shield for archers in terms of avaliability.

Plume shield also absorbs a lot more damage for a lot less chi than these archer buffs you've mentioned. A cleric could quite easily activate guardian light or wings of protection after plume shield is down, not to mention heals. I know you play both classes and yes it's not an active buff but archers don't get anything near as good defensively.
While we're on the topic of missed out cleric buffs, lets add ultraviolet dance to that too.

Sint - Harshlands · April 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Plume shield also absorbs a lot more damage for a lot less chi than these archer buffs you've mentioned. A cleric could quite easily activate guardian light or wings of protection after plume shield is down, not to mention heals. I know you play both classes and yes it's not an active buff but archers don't get anything near as good defensively.
While we're on the topic of missed out cleric buffs, lets add ultraviolet dance to that too.

You're a moron, you can't structure an argument, you need to reroll. This should be clear by now. In 1 v 1, Both SoG and sleep are generally easier than guardian light.

Why do you even mention ultraviolet dance when:
1) most decent clerics think it's pretty much useless.
2) the drawback to it is NOT BEING ABLE TO USE HEALING SKILLS. Archers are the ONLY class in the game that doesn't have a healing skill.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · April 2013

WTB> range + crit + wolf emblem effect with archer buff tyyyyy

Sint - Harshlands · April 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

WTB> range + crit + wolf emblem effect with archer buff tyyyyy

+ zerk, gonna rawk.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · April 2013

zerk crit BoA okay?

taringa181 · April 2013

i think archer class needs slightly more base interval... an improved chance to proc purge would balance all the buffs other classes have... also make that demon flame arrow maybe able to turn your auto-attacks damage into full fire damage for like 2-3 seconds

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · April 2013

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

You're a moron, you can't structure an argument, you need to reroll. This should be clear by now. In 1 v 1, Both SoG and sleep are generally easier than guardian light.

Why do you even mention ultraviolet dance when:
1) most decent clerics think it's pretty much useless.
2) the drawback to it is NOT BEING ABLE TO USE HEALING SKILLS. Archers are the ONLY class in the game that doesn't have a healing skill.

We're not exclusively talking about 1vs1 though.
Ultraviolet dance is not useless.
Not really sure what heals have to do with buffs here. Why would a cleric need to heal in 1vs1 when they could just sog and sleep? They can always switch between UVD and normal mode. That's what most clerics do. It seems you don't know how to structure an argument. Not that anything you've ever said on any thread has been constructive anyway, but I expected better from an archer who thinks they're qualified to tell me to reroll. You really don't know much about anything. Keep your silly little comments to yourself. They have no place here troll.

Archers Buffs - what would you change?

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