Puppies are hung from ceiling fans every time...

You forgot to add:

"Every time someone in crappy gear claims that an archer is too OP and needs to be nerfed."

"Every time someone claims that purge is the most OP proc to have on a weapon."

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every time an Archer steals something from humans. *cough* LEAPS *cough*

To add insult to injury BM leaps are 16m, Archers get a 20m leap so you really can't even match them. Not to mention the annoying airborne glitch at the end that I think BMs get worst, where you are technically "falling" from an inch above the ground and it takes 3 seconds to land so you can't use skills while falling.

Stealth: Sins get their level of stealth +10, then have a second skill to get 20 levels more of stealth. They also have a second skill that gives them Stealth +11 levels. Only the second skill can be used while in combat mode, their main stealth skill cannot. Archer get +31 stealth levels and can use it when in combat.



...everytime an archer attacks mobs while the Barb/BM/Seeker is trying to start a pull. Double puppy score if the cleric stays back to heal the archer instead of following the tank.

Badonkajonck - Archosaur wrote: »

I barrage the boss in TT runs when we use to trio it because it gave out more damage. (I did not mind the waste of arrows and herbs)

Your highest DPS on a single target would be a spark macro + auto attacks. Even with a crossbow.

Barraging a single target has never been more damage than that just using that chi to spark.



To add to the list:

Every time an archer stats mag for white wings.
Every time an archer stats mag because it will "make lightning skills do more dmg"
Every time an archer uses magic rings (outside of Seal of Eternal solitude) for anything but refining for mdef (and even then half of them are doing it wrong).

Also stormrage is useful in NW as a way to slow flag carriers who are using antistuns.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stealth: Sins get their level of stealth +10, then have a second skill to get 20 levels more of stealth. They also have a second skill that gives them Stealth +11 levels. Only the second skill can be used while in combat mode, their main stealth skill cannot. Archer get +31 stealth levels and can use it when in combat.

So... your complaint is that our stealth gives us the same amount of stealth levels as a sin's force stealth? Shadow Escape (+11) + Cat-Like Tread (+20) = +31 stealth levels.

Remember, even then our movement is restricted to leaps while in stealth.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stealth: Sins get their level of stealth +10, then have a second skill to get 20 levels more of stealth. They also have a second skill that gives them Stealth +11 levels. Only the second skill can be used while in combat mode, their main stealth skill cannot. Archer get +31 stealth levels and can use it when in combat.

Must be nice to have unrestricted movement.

OPKossy wrote: »

Fully buffed endgame archers can be killed without purge by most other classes.

Your rebuttal?

No they can't. Where are you getting that claim from?

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

... It happens all the time.

Sure, I only have 14k HP. But when I can get oneshot, with full buffs, by a zerk crit from a +5 unbuffed r9r3 seeker? There's a balancing issue there.

And it's not just seekers. I'm pretty sure the only three classes I've never been oneshot through full buffs by are venos, clerics, and mystics. And that's likely only because there aren't very many of those in endgame gear to go around on our server.

He said full buffed end game archers.
Unfortunately, your experience does not really apply here. Sorry. I have not heard of any end game archer getting 1 shot through full buffs. Or at least not in any cases where the archer gets 1 shot while all other classes live.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm so sorry that there's such a big difference between +8 armor vs +5 wep and +12 armor vs +12 wep. I can guarantee you the archer still gets oneshot, because I've seen it happen. Many times. There are two full +12 JOSD archers on our server... and I've seen both get oneshot on more than one occasion through full buffs.

Out of curiosity whom are 1shotting those two? I can see seekers 1shotting them, I remember how hard Crelor`s seeker hit my barb, was something absurd with R9+5 wep. Some wizzies can prolly do it too, I know how stupid high N3 wizzies hit me with their debuffs.

Ps. I agree on mystics/venos, those dont seem to hit that hard these days but some clerics on our server hit pretty absurd numbers, dont think they could 1shot our top geared archers though.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm so sorry that there's such a big difference between +8 armor vs +5 wep and +12 armor vs +12 wep. I can guarantee you the archer still gets oneshot, because I've seen it happen. Many times. There are two full +12 JOSD archers on our server... and I've seen both get oneshot on more than one occasion through full buffs.

The survival of +8 armor and +12 with full josd is vastly different. You say that based on your experience, you see +12 josd archers get 1 shot. However, I claim that based on my experience, +12 josd archers cannot get 1 shot. Therefore, we won't get anywhere without some calculations or proofs.

So I will pull out an effective Hp calculator for this.


Let us use an end game archer:
http://pwcalc.com/af48a9aba540751a
This gives the archer an effective hp of 480,829 against physical damage and 438,730 against magic damage.

Alternatively, the archer can use a physical defense necklace:
http://pwcalc.com/44c7d2674ffda7c2
This gives the archer an effective hp of 603,639 against physical damage and 365,497 against magic damage.

First, lets compare this stat to every other class out there.
I will link the PWCalc, and their Effective HP against physical damage, then magical damage

BM - 943,827; 453,890
Wizard - 565,305; 435,505
Cleric - 416,689; 421,084
Barb - 970,647; 466,516
Veno - 433,040; 450,439
Assassin - 480,122; 438,084
Psychic - 431,563; 437,482
Mystic - 547,340; 436,115
Seeker - 1,250,571; 601,405

*Note, for the HA and AA classes, I used the same armor for all of them, but I changed the stats to match their actual armor's stats. Reason is because I'm too lazy to reequip everything for each class. The stats are almost the same anyway.

If you are unfamiliar, Effective HP represents the amount of base damage an enemy must deal to kill you. That is, the damage they must deal straight out without any reduction or amplification. What this means is that any two builds with the same effective HP will survive equally well against 1 shots or charm bypasses. Anything that will 1 shot a build with X effective HP will also 1 shot another build that also has X effective hp, even if the two build belongs to different class and may have different defense and HP altogether.

As you can see from this analysis, archer's defense really is not that low. It is actually very similar to most classes out there. In fact, the only class with stats off the chart is the seeker reaching 1.2m in effective hp against physical damage. What this implies is that saying an archer will get 1 shot while other classes will not get 1 shot does not make sense. Since the effective hp of most classes are similar, anything that will 1 shot an archer will also 1 shot other classes. Since we can agree that most classes do not get 1 shot, we must also agree that archers also do not get 1 shot based on these numbers.

If this is still unconvincing, we can also calculate base damage output for every class. I will use the hardest hitting skill for all cases.
Using the above pwcalcs (With fixed weapons):

BM - 125,532
Wizard - 117,794
Archer - 98,730
Cleric - 117,554
Barb - 286,144
Veno - 99,222
Assassin - 110,728
Psychic - 107,870
Mystic - 89,011
Seeker - 138,716

Now just to clarify, these are base damage without amplify or debuffs. The reason is, debuffs and amplifies lower your effective hp. This means that for classes with similar effective hp, the debuffs would lower the effective hp by roughly the same amount. So once again, anything that will 1 shot an archer, will also 1 shot other classes.

As you can see, non of these classes do high enough base damage to 1 shot an archer. That is, none of the base damage is greater than the archer's effective hp.

With this, I conclude that a full buffed end game archer will not get 1 shot under normal conditions. If they do get 1 shot, then most other classes will suffer the same fate. Getting 1 shot is not exclusive to archers. Also, considering the damage i listed above are maximum damages, killing an archer through full buffs is also not an easy task.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hard, but easier than an invoked barb, Seeker with def sword crapping def levels, caster with purify making it damn impossible to stack enough debuffs, sin with focused mind and BM with demon bell + marrow + higher base HP to begin with

And psy w/ white voodoo.

Not to mention...

Your bm is running around -not- in magic marrow? What? Equalizing that alone (and adding +44 str and changing the bm's level to 105, since you neglected to do that on the BM while doing it on the archer) gave me 794012 effective HP against phys and 838806 effective HP against mag. I didn't bother with the calc for the rest, but:

Missing at least one self-buff: BM
Missing demon buffs: Wizard, Cleric
Missing buffs entirely: Psychic
Not level 105: BM, Assassin, Seeker
Using Matchless Wings instead of Heaven Ravager (what?): Wizard, Cleric, Veno, Psychic, Mystic
Gear not max stats: Wizard, Cleric, Veno, Psychic, Mystic
Gear missing +44 from engravings: Everything except archer

At least equalize the calcs if you're going to do a comparison like this.

Additionally, you claim that only seekers have "off the charts" effective HP, and only with phys. I'd like to point out that the -one- class where I actually fixed the discrepancies in the calc (BM) had 794102 / 838806 effective HP once I corrected it. The archer, when I ran the calc, had 533283 / 486591. That's a 49% / 72% higher effective HP for the BM than the archer - nowhere near equal. A screenshot, if you must: http://i.imgur.com/Hx0EHY7.png. That's archer on the left, BM on the right.