Skai You Sage Barb Hater

and the demon barbs could remain in their roll as solo TTers (Or in other words wannebe BMs )

When you make posts like that it seems like your lumping demon barbs together with APS bm's, that's what it seems like, ijs

If Intensified Sage True Form/Panda still had the damage reduction, but intensified Demon True Form/Panda gave 40% HP instead of 30%, would that not be considered a mistake? The whole point of True Form was that you sacrificed some physical attack for more HP (and more P Def coming from Shapeshifting Intensity), and the Sage version played into this.

The problem is that from Level 3 True Form, the Sage version now gets all three attributes enhanced, while the Demon version only gets two, and one of those was the only benefit the Demon version had over Sage, and now it's gone. Perhaps Demon should get an increase in physical attack based on 50% of weapon damage... Then Sage wouldn't have the penalty, but there would still be a trade off between HP and damage just like before.

However, I think the chi gain is much more broken than removing the damage reduction from Sage True Form. Sure, Demon BKI gives 15 more chi per cast, but compared to Sage True From/Panda, it costs 5 times as much mana, takes 1.5 more seconds to channel/cast, you have to stop moving to cast it, and you have to stand up, which means you lose the HP and P Def increase, and you must recover HP when switching back to Tiger Form. Okay, yes Demon BKI also gives chi to the squad... but that means nothing if you're the one in the middle of pulling/tanking or if you're alone. If someone picked Demon because of this ability to build chi, despite the costs, then it's really unfair that they not only gave Sage this ability as well, but made it faster and cheaper to use.

Also Demon's new buff thing is only useful in PvP situations... Sage is useful in PvE and PvP.

bolocactu wrote: »

I think sage needed a boost. The difference between sage/demon is small in most cases but as a seeker the obvious choice is sage. But as an untamed barbarian you have to make choices depending on the skill because sage deals the same damage as demon. If they don't fix the damage then I'm going sage because it seems like the obvious choice.b:victory

I agree sage needed a boost.

But not by gaining most of the advantages Demon had and still keeping the advantages that Sage has.

Max chi in 34 seconds...wtf.

(And I'm not APS on my Demon Barb. I kept my Demon Vit Catabarb because of the superior Chi gain compared to Sage.)

Skaitavia wrote: »

That is a bit quick, but then again you have to think of other broken classes, like sage assassins, who can get full chi in 10 seconds.

Totally comparing Apples to Plywood Skai.

The largest issue is two big pluses for Demon originally are now invalid.

BS.

If i want an APS char, i make a barb because BMs and sins arent furry.

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think barbs are the slowest farmers/soloers and deal weakest damage compared to equal geared bm's and sins XD
So you need to have better gear to hold aggro on sins and bm's, but its your choice b:nosebleed

But aps barbs have the potential to gear up to r9 2nd recast and be better tank DD's.

My Barb and BM kill at similar speeds even though they share gear, but my barb is a faster farmer because of his run speed. My BMs pulls will be smaller, my barbs pulls are larger, faster, and end with a sunder+top+arma. Then boss killing speed is the same. My Bm using spark+Cloud Eruption+ HF isn't any faster than my barb using spark+Tangling Mire+Penetrate Armor, since HF doesn't save much time when only a single person gets the benefit and it takes 2 seconds to cast losing 10 attacks.

The sin is the fastest boss killer and can stealth by mobs, but pausing to enter stealth does slow things down. Especially if you have shadow escape on cd and need to wait to go out of combat mode to stealth. The biggest advantage is the def-paint heals ratio really favors barbs and makes life easier. What I mean is my sin might have 200k dps and be getting 8k heals a second but he's being hit for 5k each second. So he's still being kept fully healed but mistiming attacks, falling short of a spark, excessive misses, being stunned can all cause a death. Meanwhile my barb may only be doing 150k dps and only getting 6k heals but he's got 17k hp and is only taking 1500 damage. He's also staying fully healed, but is at no risk of dieing if he makes a mistake.

So the sin might kill a bit faster but the comfort and safety of a run is advantage barb. And when you only spend 5 minutes actually fighting bosses in places like a tt3-1, spending 6.5 minutes and having an easier time is worth it.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

My Barb and BM kill at similar speeds even though they share gear, but my barb is a faster farmer because of his run speed. My BMs pulls will be smaller, my barbs pulls are larger, faster, and end with a sunder+top+arma. Then boss killing speed is the same. My Bm using spark+Cloud Eruption+ HF isn't any faster than my barb using spark+Tangling Mire+Penetrate Armor, since HF doesn't save much time when only a single person gets the benefit and it takes 2 seconds to cast losing 10 attacks.

The sin is the fastest boss killer and can stealth by mobs, but pausing to enter stealth does slow things down. Especially if you have shadow escape on cd and need to wait to go out of combat mode to stealth. The biggest advantage is the def-paint heals ratio really favors barbs and makes life easier. What I mean is my sin might have 200k dps and be getting 8k heals a second but he's being hit for 5k each second. So he's still being kept fully healed but mistiming attacks, falling short of a spark, excessive misses, being stunned can all cause a death. Meanwhile my barb may only be doing 150k dps and only getting 6k heals but he's got 17k hp and is only taking 1500 damage. He's also staying fully healed, but is at no risk of dieing if he makes a mistake.

So the sin might kill a bit faster but the comfort and safety of a run is advantage barb. And when you only spend 5 minutes actually fighting bosses in places like a tt3-1, spending 6.5 minutes and having an easier time is worth it.

Sweetebot please give Sakubatou - Sanctuary 10 points b:pleased

PS besides the furryness, the facts saku posted here and my having an aversion to sins, it also helps that i will be playing a lot with a BM friend. The combination should be doing great.

LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »

and honestly id rather deal that extra 10% dmg.

Its 10% weapon damage more, not total damage. After you take your 300-550 strength (2-4 damage multipliers) the +phys attack on your rings and armor, Axe mastery, Titans buff, and the skill damage that +10 weapon damage is about 2%. I don't need to explain that 5% crit is higher than 2% damage right?

So its better for 1 minute. It will block Power Dashing of sins, which is a problem but I usually know the sins I run with or I ask and most don't use Power Dash on bosses, prefering to Subsea or hold their chi in case they get stunned or need to triple spark in an emergency. So I use demon Titans right before a boss and my entire squad deals 5% more damage. People survive better from 5% more bloodpaint heals. The boss dies that much quick.

Ofc best is to have the demon barb buff first, then the sage overwrite it. Now for 1 minute you have 50% Titans and the 5% crit, then when it wears off you still have 50% Titans.

LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »

p.s. - if you want aps make a bm or a sin, barbs are for taking and dealing dmg, not mindlessly hitting things like they havent got any sense. if you need aps as a barb then you obviously never learned how to be a barb in the first place.

Who says? Sure they get more hp and defense but who says the only purpose of a barb is to be a mob pinata while other players get to use their skills and brains to dd, chain combos, and debuff for effective killing?

And who is tanking in your squads? The barb with 30k hp, or the Sin who has focused on dd and is ripping aggro? Seems like if you want to tank you should focus on dd. I have about a dozen skills to utilize to increase my survivability. Seems like my skills and stats should be focused on damage output so I actually keep aggro and then use my skills to survive.

Not sure if you're to endgame content or gear but there are 40k hp aps barbs. You need about 14k hp to do everything in game. Trading 2k hp so that you can hold aggro or contribute more to your squad seems a good deal. 10% hp difference for actually holding aggro with aps. Solo farming. Faster, smoother runs. Killing bosses before their special attacks or random aggro kills your squadmates?

Aps barbs are in tiger form about 90% of the run, btw. We use every skill just as an old-school barb does. If we're struggling for hp (some aps barbs switch before decent refines) then we'll probably learn even better how to use all our skills to survive even better. Think about it, a barb with 15k hp needs to be on his game to do an AEU more than a barb with 35k hp. And since we're dd's as well as tanks we have to be thinking on multiple levels, both on holding aggro/canceling boss attacks and doing the tank job, and trying to maximize our debuffs and sparks to hold aggro and kill effectively.

That's not mindlessly playing. Mindlessly playing is putting a rock on your Flesh Ream hotkey then afking so that you can cry that you're playing a class with 1 active skill.

And the "If you want to aps, play a BM or a Sin" is so narrowminded and stoopid. If you want to kill stuff play an archer, stupid wizard. If you want to heal stuff play a cleric, stupid mystic. If you want to cast, play a psychic, stupid veno. If you want to tank play a barb, stupid seeker. Yah, classes have more than 1 roll and each roll can be filled by multiple classes. Game versatility is a good thing. Stop QQing.

I intent to get every character this game offers to lvl 100 someday except the sin.

I just dont wanna be associated with them in any way b:chuckle

Well thats not entirely true, i got a sin for buffing purposes, but my other chars are not nice to him and never will be. He's our slave and thats all he'll ever be.

SweetieBot give 10 points to Sakubatou - Sanctuary because i did it wrong before

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Totally comparing Apples to Plywood Skai.

The largest issue is two big pluses for Demon originally are now invalid.

I laughed harder than I should have XD

Blaxton - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok so I finally got the Panda form for myself...

I want to apologize because I totally thought you could switch directly between Tiger and Panda, but that's not the case... So while the Sage chi gain is still better than Demon BKI, it's not quite as OP as I was imagining it... still a bit of a blow to Demon advantages, I agree. I guess they're just putting more focus on the squad support aspect of it...

And I still wish there was something to make up for forgetting that Demon True Form never had a penalty to remove like Sage and Fox forms...

I've been to one of your BH runs Blax...you still outshine a ton of sage barbs out there who don't know what ''aggro control'' is. (And sadly spamming FR till kingdom come while one of your dd's hp drops like a rock is still the modus operandi of a ton of barbs in RT sage or demon b:surrender).

And I certainly agree with one poster that the barb with the lower hp is the one that is usually more focused on his tanking and skills than the one with the higher hp. He must work his way thru to keep his slot on squad or get booted or at least hear an earful from his squad (I'm more than happy to give someone a snap or two if my squad is too shy to point out an error).Not that higher hp barbs are total wanks(though in RT an awful lot of them are)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its 10% weapon damage more, not total damage. After you take your 300-550 strength (2-4 damage multipliers) the +phys attack on your rings and armor, Axe mastery, Titans buff, and the skill damage that +10 weapon damage is about 2%. I don't need to explain that 5% crit is higher than 2% damage right?

So its better for 1 minute. It will block Power Dashing of sins, which is a problem but I usually know the sins I run with or I ask and most don't use Power Dash on bosses, prefering to Subsea or hold their chi in case they get stunned or need to triple spark in an emergency. So I use demon Titans right before a boss and my entire squad deals 5% more damage. People survive better from 5% more bloodpaint heals. The boss dies that much quick.

Ofc best is to have the demon barb buff first, then the sage overwrite it. Now for 1 minute you have 50% Titans and the 5% crit, then when it wears off you still have 50% Titans.

nice, that your opinion, just like everything i said is mine. the way ive always looked at is demon barbs are all about the crit, and sage is all about survivability, and survivability is the name of the game my friend. it doesnt matter if you can crit if you cant survive long enough to do it. again, thats just my opinion.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Who says? Sure they get more hp and defense but who says the only purpose of a barb is to be a mob pinata while other players get to use their skills and brains to dd, chain combos, and debuff for effective killing?

And who is tanking in your squads? The barb with 30k hp, or the Sin who has focused on dd and is ripping aggro? Seems like if you want to tank you should focus on dd. I have about a dozen skills to utilize to increase my survivability. Seems like my skills and stats should be focused on damage output so I actually keep aggro and then use my skills to survive.

Not sure if you're to endgame content or gear but there are 40k hp aps barbs. You need about 14k hp to do everything in game. Trading 2k hp so that you can hold aggro or contribute more to your squad seems a good deal. 10% hp difference for actually holding aggro with aps. Solo farming. Faster, smoother runs. Killing bosses before their special attacks or random aggro kills your squadmates?

OMG are you serious? theres really 40k hp barbs out there? i could have sworn that a friend in game had 47k, guess i was wrong. my barb is vit build with 28k hp and 3rd cast nirvana armor and axes, pretty sure im in "endgame content or gear", i could be wrong about that as well, i dont know. and the answer to your question is that i tank the bosses, WITHOUT putting a rock on my flesh ream macro (which doesnt exsist) so i can go afk and blah blah blah.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Aps barbs are in tiger form about 90% of the run, btw. We use every skill just as an old-school barb does. If we're struggling for hp (some aps barbs switch before decent refines) then we'll probably learn even better how to use all our skills to survive even better. Think about it, a barb with 15k hp needs to be on his game to do an AEU more than a barb with 35k hp. And since we're dd's as well as tanks we have to be thinking on multiple levels, both on holding aggro/canceling boss attacks and doing the tank job, and trying to maximize our debuffs and sparks to hold aggro and kill effectively.

That's not mindlessly playing. Mindlessly playing is putting a rock on your Flesh Ream hotkey then afking so that you can cry that you're playing a class with 1 active skill.

And the "If you want to aps, play a BM or a Sin" is so narrowminded and stoopid. If you want to kill stuff play an archer, stupid wizard. If you want to heal stuff play a cleric, stupid mystic. If you want to cast, play a psychic, stupid veno. If you want to tank play a barb, stupid seeker. Yah, classes have more than 1 roll and each roll can be filled by multiple classes. Game versatility is a good thing. Stop QQing.

yes, game versatility is a good thing, but going 4-5 aps on a class that isnt meant to be is "stoopid" for probably more reasons then the one im about to give. using fists on a barb is like putting fists on a cleric when it comes to dmg. theres no mastery for it on that class so youre dmg is going to be mediocre compared to a 4-5 aps bm or sin. thats what being aps is in this game after all. not being a barb and going from 1 aps to 1.33 because you sparked. so lets see....you go from 1 aps to 1.33 aps with dual axes so every 3 seconds or so you atk twice instead of once? totally worth it. sparks only last for 15 seconds, and im sure there is a way to maximize it and make all your efforts worth it since you just wasted all that chi, but by the time you do your whole spark atk routine thats probably more like 5-10 seconds worth of spark left and youre stuck using a chi pot or gettin a spark from the veno in your squad (stoopid casters) just so that you can do it all over again. totally (NOT) worth all that effort, i agree.

btw, did you know that if a 5 aps bm/sin has full chi when they spark it takes them around 12 seconds to get back up to full chi again (remember sparks last for 15 seconds), and being 5 aps really is the only way to perma-spark? and that a 4 aps bm/sin cant get back up to full chi again even if they use the whole 15 seconds before they spark, and that after sparking twice they wont be able to spark again without spending roughly 5 seconds attacking UNsparked? its all about chi management in the long run if you want to tank and keep your squad mates alive.

i cant help the fact that your toon sucks and you had to go aps on your barb so that you could keep all the squishy sins alive because you suck at tanking. your whole post sounds like a huge QQ rant about how much your own toon sucks, and probably still does, because of your inability to play a simple class, and your just assuming that every body on pw who has a barb does the same thing you did. i honestly couldnt tell you the last time i had to spark on a boss for any reason, let alone to keep agro (we have skills for that after all). stop QQing and learn how to play your class before you start making it do things it wasnt originally meant to do.

Luckas, when people like you bring the arguments against APS, you make it way to easy on us. At least know a little bit what youre talking about before you are gonna take part in a debate like this b:chuckle

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

Luckas, when people like you bring the arguments against APS, you make it way to easy on us. At least know a little bit what youre talking about before you are gonna take part in a debate like this b:chuckle

Lmfao, you guys are rich, I'm speechless. I don't give 2 ****'s how you guys play your classes, all I've done is give you the reasons why I don't agree with it and why. If you have gotten this butt hurt about it then that's just sad, and I feel sorry for ya, I truly do. And I've also pointed out the fact that you suck at tanking because you yourself have to go aps on a tank class in order to keep agro, which is also sad, and I apologize as well. I, myself, have never had a problem tanking mobs or bosses against sins or any other class and I'm not aps or r9 in any form. I can do everything on my barb now with 28k hp that I could do at 90 with only 14-15k hp only more and better, sorry, your argument is invalid.

When people like you bring the arguments for aps on a barb you make it too easy for those of us who actually know how to play the class and make yourselves look like mindless idiots. At least say something more for yourself when you speak up rather then just piggy backing on somebody else's words.

And btw, I have a 102, 5 aps bm and a 101 sage sin that was 4 aps base before I decided to change to a "powerhouse" build for pvp, lets face it, no sin that only uses aps to kill people can hit a HA class for more then 2-3k at a time, and that's only if they're r9.