Updated Sage vs. Demon

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Comments

  • T_i_m - Dreamweaver
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    You're an idiot.

    This is very persuasive.

    Here is how I see it. Sage has some perks but demon has more. If I could replace my demon skills individually with sage which would they be? Perhaps the chi skill but it's up in the air. Highland cleave for sure... but if demon gave instant channel for 10 sec instead of aps, I'd take that. The rest of the skills I'd prefer demon. Remember flag runners can't holypath after digging so slow works just fine.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Did I not say myself that sage tiger maw kinda sucks?

    The situation with the veno still works without a friendly veno, it's simply harder to apply due to needing that chi to sue other skills.

    A BM picking a single target? We're crowd controllers. One person is not a crowd. Communicate that with your sin. A 1v1 situation, doesn't matter how much chi you havem they are dead in which case demon HF wins.

    Bro, do you even lift?

    Chi is consumed when you:
    Drakes Bash for Stun
    Roar for Stun
    Heavens Flame for amp
    Tiger Leap forward or Back
    Will of Bodhi to anti-stun
    Smack to seal
    Reckless Rush to paralyze/close distance
    Disarm Skill to disarm opponent
    Bolt to freeze a group
    Blade Tornado



    And guess what, that's everything a BM is useful for.

    I don't need to waste genie on cloud eruption or apoth on chi, ever
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    This is very persuasive.

    Here is how I see it. Sage has some perks but demon has more. If I could replace my demon skills individually with sage which would they be? Perhaps the chi skill but it's up in the air. Highland cleave for sure... but if demon gave instant channel for 10 sec instead of aps, I'd take that. The rest of the skills I'd prefer demon. Remember flag runners can't holypath after digging so slow works just fine.

    I prefer sage dragon, i prefer sage bell, i prefer sage marrows, i prefer sage chi skill, i prefer sage roar, i prefer sage spark

    I like demon drakes bash, and axe skills better.

    Bell and marrows i think are equal,
    I just personally prefer sage on those for reasons stated in earlier post
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Chi is consumed when you:
    Drakes Bash for Stun
    Roar for Stun
    Heavens Flame for amp
    Tiger Leap forward or Back
    Will of Bodhi to anti-stun
    Smack to seal
    Reckless Rush to paralyze/close distance
    Disarm Skill to disarm opponent
    Bolt to freeze a group
    Blade Tornado



    And guess what, that's everything a BM is useful for.

    I don't need to waste genie on cloud eruption or apoth on chi, ever

    Then you aren't using your skills often enough. Also, where's your Reel In? Where's your Diamond Sutra? Sage sutra is very ncie for reasons already explained.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Chi is consumed when you:
    Drakes Bash for Stun
    Roar for Stun
    Heavens Flame for amp
    Tiger Leap forward or Back
    Will of Bodhi to anti-stun
    Smack to seal
    Reckless Rush to paralyze/close distance
    Disarm Skill to disarm opponent
    Bolt to freeze a group
    Blade Tornado



    And guess what, that's everything a BM is useful for.

    I don't need to waste genie on cloud eruption or apoth on chi, ever

    You've got a really slow reaction time then, or aren't playing as hard as you could or should.

    Every good BM, sage or demon that I know, utilizes their genie for Chi. Cause were dumping it faster than we can make it all the damn time.

    Of note, you missed the other things were good for:
    Blade Hurl to stop Purify Proc or lower DD or stop others from using skills
    Demon Fissure to slow
    Oceans Edge to slow (Freeze sometimes if youre Sage)
    Axe AoEs to do damage to large groups
    Reel in to reposition people
    Belling party members
    Buddha's guarding party members
    Marrow to take less damage
    Axe Spamming or Fisting down single targets and DDs/Clerics
    Drake Ray 1 hitting scrubs (comboed with Smack and/or Blade Hurl if they got a few extra HP)

    Mostly I'd say widen and quicken your playstyle if what you're explaining is in your posts is where you're at.

    (Either culti is fine.)
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Then you aren't using your skills often enough. Also, where's your Reel In? Where's your Diamond Sutra? Sage sutra is very ncie for reasons already explained.
    Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You've got a really slow reaction time then, or aren't playing as hard as you could or should.

    Every good BM, sage or demon that I know, utilizes their genie for Chi. Cause were dumping it faster than we can make it all the damn time.

    Of note, you missed the other things were good for:
    Blade Hurl to stop Purify Proc or lower DD or stop others from using skills
    Demon Fissure to slow
    Oceans Edge to slow (Freeze sometimes if youre Sage)
    Axe AoEs to do damage to large groups
    Reel in to reposition people
    Belling party members
    Buddha's guarding party members
    Marrow to take less damage
    Axe Spamming or Fisting down single targets and DDs/Clerics
    Drake Ray 1 hitting scrubs (comboed with Smack and/or Blade Hurl if they got a few extra HP)

    Mostly I'd say widen and quicken your playstyle if what you're explaining is in your posts is where you're at.

    (Either culti is fine.)

    I'll reiterate and place my arguments in a concise format now.

    Sage and Demon both have their own advantages. I feel that some of the advantages/disadvantages of sage however are being incorrectly represented.

    PvP Advantages of Sage:
    Sage Bell is superior when fighting with a team, as it keeps your entire party's defenses high and does not need to be spammed. If anyone were to make the argument that you could spam Demon Bell on your team in group PvP, I'd argue that this was impractical as it would imply your entire party was in close enough proximity to be mass AoEd.

    Demon Bell (if spammed) is preferable for the lone Blademaster trying to keep his defenses high against a group of superior number or against Archers.




    Sage Heavens Flame always leaves you with 75 extra chi minimum to be used for a follow up skill.
    This can include leaps/smack/reckless rush/reel in/roar/ etc. and if you had at minimum 2.25 sparks before using heavens flame you can still drakes bash/will of bodhi/bolt (to keep enemies in place for your team).

    Demon Heavens Flame lasts 3 seconds longer.




    Sage Drakes Bash has a 33% chance to not cost any chi at all. Self explanatory, it saves you a spark 1/3 the time to use on other skills.

    Demon Drakes Bash stuns 1.5 seconds longer (I personally do prefer demon drakes bash but I think it is very close).




    Sage Roar costs 20 chi and works 95% the time
    Demon Roar costs 35 chi and works 100% the time.
    I definitely prefer Sage.




    Sage Chi skill gives you half a spark every minute to use as you see fit for all of our chi consuming skills. (Comparably, a genie with cloud eruption and 50 magic for double regeneration would still take over a minute to give you one spark)

    Demon Chi Skill allows you to take 1 spark away from a target every thirty seconds and is better in a 1 vs 1 situation.




    Sage Spark is superior to Demon Spark in every way.
    Sage BMs can be 5.0 natural with the correct gear, making the Speed boost for demon spark useless ad opposed to Sage's 20% damage reduction.

    ~~~~~~~~~

    I have no argument as for the slowing skills. I imagine they are useful to use on flag carriers in Nation Wars. I am speaking purely from a world PvP and TW standpoint.

    ~~~~~~~~~

    As you should be able to see from what I just wrote, as a Sage BM I rarely need to use cloud eruption or chi pots to maintain high chi.

    I save my genie for things I consider much more important such as Faith/Domain/Mire/Occult Ice/Holy Path
    I save my Apoth for Iron Guards, Speed Orbs, etc.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I forgot reel in
    Sutra is very rarely anything more than a waste of chi.

    I use my skills far more often than you,
    I can make this claim on a practical level;
    I have constant chi as a sage and CAN use them more often.
    I've played BM on a PvP server since PWI opened in 2008, and before that on My-En.

    EDIT: Sec while I add to this. My previous posts were all from a phone while at work.

    My skills are always on cooldown, so you use them more than me? Seems legit, tell me the secrets how you haxed your cooldowns. I'm a sage too and no matter which culti you should be using your chi as you gain it. Which server you play on has nothing to do with how good you are.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    My skills are always on cooldown, so you use them more than me? Seems legit, tell me the secrets how you haxed your cooldowns. I'm a sage too and no matter which culti you should be using your chi as you gain it. Which server you play on has nothing to do with how good you are.

    Finished editing my post.
    And actually, Sage BMs have reduced cooldown on our ranged skill drakes ray and one of our AoE's (Drake Sweep)

    My server and duration of play show more experience than you have in pvp
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • T_i_m - Dreamweaver
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I prefer sage dragon, i prefer sage bell, i prefer sage marrows, i prefer sage chi skill, i prefer sage roar, i prefer sage spark

    I like demon drakes bash, and axe skills better.

    Bell and marrows i think are equal,
    I just personally prefer sage on those for reasons stated in earlier post

    I think you're crazy to prefer 6 sec curse to 9 sec. Also, how does it feel to catch a sin out of tidal or an archer out of antistun only to "miss" roar (or worse, miss casters)? It's like putting badge of courage on a min dex genie.

    Demon magic marrow balances endgame defenses almost perfectly, much preferred to imbal, and pmarrow still puts you at 90% reduction in the odd scenario you are fighting phys only.

    Diamond sutra costs too much chi in pvp , but demon is very useful on certain HF-immune bosses.

    I'm not saying sage isn't viable, but demon perks outweigh sage.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I think you're crazy to prefer 6 sec curse to 9 sec. Also, how does it feel to catch a sin out of tidal or an archer out of antistun only to "miss" roar (or worse, miss casters)? It's like putting badge of courage on a min dex genie.

    Demon magic marrow balances endgame defenses almost perfectly, much preferred to imbal, and pmarrow still puts you at 90% reduction in the odd scenario you are fighting phys only.

    Diamond sutra costs too much chi in pvp , but demon is very useful on certain HF-immune bosses.

    I'm not saying sage isn't viable, but demon perks outweigh sage.

    I prefer 75 chi to 3 seconds HF. Get it right.
    Roar has a 5% chance to miss and costs pretty much half the chi. Yours takes over 1/3 a bar for very little advantage.

    I prefer sage Bell because I am a team player.
    Go read my earlier post. I edited it now that I am home.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Finished editing my post.
    And actually, Sage BMs have reduced cooldown on our ranged skill drakes ray and one of our AoE's (Drake Sweep)

    My server and duration of play show more experience than you have in pvp

    Almost each point made I had previously made. Then you call me a moron for making said points. Seems legit. I think I'll stop feeding the troll?
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I'll reiterate and place my arguments in a concise format now.

    Sage and Demon both have their own advantages. I feel that some of the advantages/disadvantages of sage however are being incorrectly represented.

    PvP Advantages of Sage:
    Sage Bell is superior when fighting with a team, as it keeps your entire party's defenses high and does not need to be spammed. If anyone were to make the argument that you could spam Demon Bell on your team in group PvP, I'd argue that this was impractical as it would imply your entire party was in close enough proximity to be mass AoEd.

    Demon Bell (if spammed) is preferable for the lone Blademaster trying to keep his defenses high against a group of superior number or against Archers.

    I think you're on point for this and I do agree.

    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Sage Heavens Flame always leaves you with 75 extra chi minimum to be used for a follow up skill.
    This can include leaps/smack/reckless rush/reel in/roar/ etc. and if you had at minimum 2.25 sparks before using heavens flame you can still drakes bash/will of bodhi/bolt (to keep enemies in place for your team).

    Demon Heavens Flame lasts 3 seconds longer.

    I've had this convo with the Sage BMs, and I feel it brings them to about even. That three seconds is a BIG deal, as thats three seconds for follow up DDs to get their butts in gear or drop another damage skill.

    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Sage Drakes Bash has a 33% chance to not cost any chi at all. Self explanatory, it saves you a spark 1/3 the time to use on other skills.

    Demon Drakes Bash stuns 1.5 seconds longer (I personally do prefer demon drakes bash but I think it is very close).

    Yea the 1/3rd of the time - if it was guaranteed, sure. Problem is like my stupid reel in (I mean, I have like 45k soulforce. And it will fail...15/16 times...even on scrubs), it may never proc, it may proc all the time.

    I believe the pure advantage here is Demon. You have to think about it as resource committal, you're expecting it to cost a spark. It's nice when it doesn't, but you cannot depend on it. That 1.5 seconds is a big deal for stun locks.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Sage Roar costs 20 chi and works 95% the time
    Demon Roar costs 35 chi and works 100% the time.
    I definitely prefer Sage.

    You forgot about the reduced cooldown on Demon, which is why demon outdoes Sage.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Sage Chi skill gives you half a spark every minute to use as you see fit for all of our chi consuming skills. (Comparably, a genie with cloud eruption and 50 magic for double regeneration would still take over a minute to give you one spark)

    Demon Chi Skill allows you to take 1 spark away from a target every thirty seconds and is better in a 1 vs 1 situation.

    34 seconds a spark on my genie chief. HUGE deal. If this is where you're at right now, Id highly suggest a different genie setup, try it, and you should be in love as you're able to dump chi at the enemy way WAY faster.

    I'd also guess you have had limited experience with Mo Zun. I agree, it's not as sexy as Li's, but in situations with multiple demon toons around - you pretty much drain a Barb or BM from being able to use sparks, and is very core in killing catabarbs, or ruining BM's days. Don't always think about things solo, but as a group as well.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Sage Spark is superior to Demon Spark in every way.
    Sage BMs can be 5.0 natural with the correct gear, making the Speed boost for demon spark useless ad opposed to Sage's 20% damage reduction.

    1v1...kinda. But tbh, in group PvP situations, like NW/TW/Outside West I don't see it. Most BMs, and definitely all of the BMs I respect, don't use 3 spark...ever in group situations. There's better ways to utilize chi. I actually get rid of the skill off my hotbars when Im PvPing.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I have no argument as for the slowing skills. I imagine they are useful to use on flag carriers in Nation Wars. I am speaking purely from a world PvP and TW standpoint.

    World PvP and TW standpoint if you're not using slows I question your sanity. Stuns, slows, immobs, freezes, seals, sleeps are all core in disrupting your opponents. I don't even know where to begin to discuss this point if you don't see the advantage of using these. Really I'm at a loss, I cannot fathom how you could say this.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    As you should be able to see from what I just wrote, as a Sage BM I rarely need to use cloud eruption or chi pots to maintain high chi.

    I save my genie for things I consider much more important such as Faith/Domain/Mire/Occult Ice/Holy Path
    I save my Apoth for Iron Guards, Speed Orbs, etc.

    Ok seriously, I don't see how what you just wrote means you rarely need chi. Like you didn't explain it. Not using chi pots I can understand, but not needing more chi than you can produce with Li and skills, I don't get. Only if you're playing really slow and not contributing as much as the tons of other BMs I play with or watch play.
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I'll attempt a brief pros and cons for both and see if I can hit things on the head...

    "Sage chi argument is not valid."
    It's incredibly valid. I showed why. We lose WAY less chi than a demon BM. It's so obvious I don't even know how you wrote this.


    "Sage Diamond Sutra is an incredible heal when it works."
    There is almost no situation whatsoever where the chi to use diamond sutra couldnt be put to better use... I wouldn't list this as an advantage. It's just something that happens to exist.

    "And then we have our basics like Drake Bash having a slight chance to not cost a spark, roar costing 10 less chi, stuff like that, which is either minor or just not frequently occurring enough to make a huge difference in the overall argument."
    Sage roar costs 15 less chi. Go use it yourself it costs 20. Demon costs 35. Don't read the self contradicting description, use it and see first hand.
    I can't believe you are arguing with me and don't even know what your own skills cost...

    33% aka 1/3 the time is not a slight chance.


    "Your roar has a chance to fail. I'd trade up my sage roar for demon roar. In the end, sage roar is only 10 less chi, which is easy to gain back. It's not a very good tradeoff, but it does hardly fail, but that small chance that it will really adds up in a large group such as the middle pit of NW or when the enemy faction is flooded on your crystal in TW."

    So let me get this straight... 33% is a "slight chance" but 95% vs 100% is a huge detrimental difference... right...



    "Demon

    Stuns are easier to loop"

    Not when you don't have the chi to loop them and you have to waste your apoth and genie on chi regeneration.

    "Demon Glacial Spike with its chance to give a 100% crit rate is spectacular. Stunning, then using a pole to Glacial Spike a large group and reduce their P.Def by a lot, followed up with a Tangling Mire on a high str genie, get a crit proc, switch to axes and raise hell, you can do absolutely insane damage. And if you have r9 axes and they zerk on your next AoE, you just critzerked on literally everyone in the group while they had an intense amount of P.Def missing."

    .... Name a situation where you would rather Glacial Spike as opposed to Heavens Flame. Name one, ESPECIALLY if you are demon. In FACT Sage Glacial reduces defenses more than Demon does =_= This is completely ridiculous.


    "My personal style is sage, which is a bit more solo than it is support, whereas demon is all about supporting your squad."
    BMs support their squad with control skills, which Sage BMs can utilize more often and just to push it past the benchmark our bell also is better for squads. Demon on the other hand can stun a single target for a longer period and can keep his own personal defenses high. You have this completely backwards.


    Those are the tings I believe you are incorrect on. My comments are in violet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yea the 1/3rd of the time - if it was guaranteed, sure. Problem is like my stupid reel in (I mean, I have like 45k soulforce. And it will fail...15/16 times...even on scrubs), it may never proc, it may proc all the time.

    I believe the pure advantage here is Demon. You have to think about it as resource committal, you're expecting it to cost a spark. It's nice when it doesn't, but you cannot depend on it. That 1.5 seconds is a big deal for stun locks.

    I also said I prefer the Demon version. I just believe Saethos misrepresented the Sage version in his original post as explained in my post directly previous to this one.



    You forgot about the reduced cooldown on Demon, which is why demon outdoes Sage.
    I did forget about it. Valid point. I still believe though that extra 15 chi adds up quickly with how often we roar, especially when you compare it to Demons reduced cooldown and their speedier expenditure because of that reduced cooldown.



    34 seconds a spark on my genie chief. HUGE deal. If this is where you're at right now, Id highly suggest a different genie setup, try it, and you should be in love as you're able to dump chi at the enemy way WAY faster.
    You have a lot of magic on your genie. I only have 50. We could debate genies but I don't want to add that extra level to this if it can be prevented.



    I'd also guess you have had limited experience with Mo Zun. I agree, it's not as sexy as Li's, but in situations with multiple demon toons around - you pretty much drain a Barb or BM from being able to use sparks, and is very core in killing catabarbs, or ruining BM's days. Don't always think about things solo, but as a group as well.

    This is also a bit more complex than just Sage BM vs Demon BM. Spamming Mo Zuns Taunt has always been effective in TW and against selective targets but that doesn't necessarily mean that the BM should be the one doing it. Anyone of demon cultivation could.



    1v1...kinda. But tbh, in group PvP situations, like NW/TW/Outside West I don't see it. Most BMs, and definitely all of the BMs I respect, don't use 3 spark...ever in group situations. There's better ways to utilize chi. I actually get rid of the skill off my hotbars when Im PvPing.

    I don't really use 3 spark ever either. I was just pointing out that it at least has some advantage and that demon doesn't have any at all.



    World PvP and TW standpoint if you're not using slows I question your sanity. Stuns, slows, immobs, freezes, seals, sleeps are all core in disrupting your opponents. I don't even know where to begin to discuss this point if you don't see the advantage of using these. Really I'm at a loss, I cannot fathom how you could say this.

    I don't feel that slows (specifically slows; not stuns & not seals/freezes) are particularly useful in group pvp most of the time. Everyone is either ranged or can teleport and leap all over the place. Plus, everyone and their mom has holypath.


    Ok seriously, I don't see how what you just wrote means you rarely need chi. Like you didn't explain it. Not using chi pots I can understand, but not needing more chi than you can produce with Li and skills, I don't get. Only if you're playing really slow and not contributing as much as the tons of other BMs I play with or watch play.

    I roar for effectively less than 1/2 the cost a demon BM does when you take into account cooldowns and chi price.
    I regain 75 chi every time I use Heavens Flame. These are our most well known and most spammed skills in PvP/TW, do you agree? That plus my Sage Chi skill and that 33% proc on bash keep my chi very high the majority of the time. I do have cloud eruption on my genie but I rarely need it.

    Replies in violet
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Those are the tings I believe you are incorrect on. My comments are in violet.

    Sage and demon GS reduce the same. If I had demon GS, I'd use the **** out of it had I been solo with a pair of zerking axes. It would be spectacular in a situation with you being alone waiting for backup, use GS and get a crit proc, switch to axes, AoE. Support arrives, time to HF for them because you used GS instead of HF, and HF is not on cooldown. Simple concept is simple.

    As for roar
    CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage Roar is only 20 chi, not 25. This was changed at the same time hf was changed.
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I keep forgetting that...Still, 15 chi is pretty easy to get back...I know BMs that have Cloud Erruption give them 2 sparks. At that point, what is 15 chi? My CE gives me 150 chi and I manage fine, so I don't think sage roar is a large factor in going sage. If it does effect a choice, it goes against sage in all honesty.

    And the reason I keep forgetting about it is because 15 chi is so easy to get back regardless of culti path, it's not a real gamebreaker.

    Sutra: So you would die with 3 sparks and revive with no chi at all before you used sutra to save yourlife and remain living with 2 sparks left still? The logic in this is so incredible I can feel my brain burning.

    You have to remember it's 33% chance each usage. You can't rely on it saving a spark, so usually you go in with enough chi to finish a combo in a worst case scenario, therefor planning for it to consume a spark and holding the spare chi to do the next skill. By the time the combo is done, your target is either dead, or you need to wait for the skill to cooldown, which is time to be spent building chi for both demon or sage without using genie or apoth. At this point, sparing the 1 spark is less vital, and a demons added duration gives more time to gain chi. Invalid argument.

    Yes, demon roar is better mainly for the guaranteed land. As a sage you should know that if you want to stun a single target, you use Drake Bash since you can save chi sometimes. When you encounter a large group, you use roar because you can nail more than one with a stun. In which case, it's 33% to save a spark on one enemy, or a 5% chance to miss on a large number of enemys. The misses add up, think of it as the BM dex and accuracy arguments for axe builds. It just adds up because you have mroe targets to be using it on. Does it fail often? Hell no. But does it fail more times than drake bash costs no chi? Yes.

    As for demon BM being not-as-good at crowd controls, this is not true. Once again onto the drake bash argument, in the occasion that one target is seriously causing trouble, you can use Drake Bash if your roar is on cooldown while you take out his support. You're restricted on time for this. That one trouble maker needs to be locked while their support is killed, sage would give you a 6-12 second window, but demon would give you a 7.5-18 second window. Sage would use Roar on the group, then Drake Bash on the main threat while the support is taken out. 2 second window after the second stun fades, the target is free, he has his support and starts being a threat again, pops a vac powder, and is free to raise hell. A demon BM can use roar on the group, drake bash the target for an additional 7.5 seconds, then this leaves roar open again to stun again. There would be no window. Ok, a .5 second window, but that's not enough for a target to get away easily.

    Sage would use less chi bud demon did it's job better. That's just how it is.

    And next time you quote me to argue, try getting the whole argument, not getting things that I had already covered.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    34 seconds a spark on my genie chief. HUGE deal. If this is where you're at right now, Id highly suggest a different genie setup, try it, and you should be in love as you're able to dump chi at the enemy way WAY faster.

    You have a lot of magic on your genie. I only have 50. We could debate genies but I don't want to add that extra level to this if it can be prevented.

    It's part of the discussion however, as genie build is uber important in PvP of any kind. It would be like gimping yourself outta GoF and saying the Cultivation with GoF is better.

    If you have a sub par genie that creates **** for chi, of course Sage is gonna be better. But if you have a good genie that creates chi like crazy, thereby being able to have more chi to utilize for Chi related skills regardless of culti - then were talking on even grounds. Discounting this is pretty much stacking the deck.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I'd also guess you have had limited experience with Mo Zun. I agree, it's not as sexy as Li's, but in situations with multiple demon toons around - you pretty much drain a Barb or BM from being able to use sparks, and is very core in killing catabarbs, or ruining BM's days. Don't always think about things solo, but as a group as well.

    This is also a bit more complex than just Sage BM vs Demon BM. Spamming Mo Zuns Taunt has always been effective in TW and against selective targets but that doesn't necessarily mean that the BM should be the one doing it. Anyone of demon cultivation could.

    Actually it does mean the BM (and every demon class) should be doing it. The difference is the sages go "Yay I have 50 chi" and the demons go "Yay we just shut down a BM or Barb".
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    1v1...kinda. But tbh, in group PvP situations, like NW/TW/Outside West I don't see it. Most BMs, and definitely all of the BMs I respect, don't use 3 spark...ever in group situations. There's better ways to utilize chi. I actually get rid of the skill off my hotbars when Im PvPing.

    I don't really use 3 spark ever either. I was just pointing out that it at least has some advantage and that demon doesn't have any at all.

    Kinda, you can still aps down tanky people who aren't SoVed or Brambled a lot better than a sage person can. But yea in PvP if I had to use the skill, Id rather have Sage. But it's a moot point given 3 spark is for PvE, and there Demon wins.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    World PvP and TW standpoint if you're not using slows I question your sanity. Stuns, slows, immobs, freezes, seals, sleeps are all core in disrupting your opponents. I don't even know where to begin to discuss this point if you don't see the advantage of using these. Really I'm at a loss, I cannot fathom how you could say this.

    I don't feel that slows (specifically slows; not stuns & not seals/freezes) are particularly useful in group pvp most of the time. Everyone is either ranged or can teleport and leap all over the place. Plus, everyone and their mom has holypath.

    I've got nothing for you then - you and your squad must have an awful time pvping and do a lot of chasing. Forcing them to holy path is a good thing. If their genie is empty, they're even more screwed. Some of the best DDs on the server ASK specifically for BMs to slow with oceans edge or demon fissure due to this. The harder it is for an enemy to get away, the more you can cause them to use their genie, the better off you are.

    Three classes get leaps. One class gets reasonable teleports (BM and Seeker teles suck) And said classes can keep up with leaps. Not a valid strategy unless you're fighting scrubs. Slows are core for **** DDs and Clerics - they will attempt to get out of your face, and forcing them to have to holy path to get outta it is a big deal.

    On a cata/flag killing perspective, slows are a big deal. Ive kept a catabarb busy for 5 minutes solo once between slows, seals, stuns, reels, immobs. Oceans edge/Demon Fissure is very necessary for that. Couple that with a DD or DDs and that barb is dead, don't even need HF in some cases.

    I think you're limiting yourself too much if you're not taking advantage of it. Especially when stun is in cooldown.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok seriously, I don't see how what you just wrote means you rarely need chi. Like you didn't explain it. Not using chi pots I can understand, but not needing more chi than you can produce with Li and skills, I don't get. Only if you're playing really slow and not contributing as much as the tons of other BMs I play with or watch play.

    I roar for effectively less than 1/2 the cost a demon BM does when you take into account cooldowns and chi price.
    I regain 75 chi every time I use Heavens Flame. These are our most well known and most spammed skills in PvP/TW, do you agree? That plus my Sage Chi skill and that 33% proc on bash keep my chi very high the majority of the time. I do have cloud eruption on my genie but I rarely need it.

    Sage conserves 90 chi a bomb run from full chi compared to Demon. However, to get to that point, you have to produce a whole 15 chi less than demon. So it's not 1/2 the cost dude, it's just that you have a bit less downtime to get the chi back up.

    The fact that your genie is 2x slower than mine, I'd say you're being inefficient and not maximizing the effect you have on the field regardless of culti.

    My bomb runs are Stun, HF, Fissure, and stay or GTFO. I get 9 seconds of HF, Slow, and my stun is ready a second earlier in case I get stuck. You get 6 seconds of HF, conserve 15 chi, and get 75 chi back. Id say they're about even if you wanna talk bomb runs - demon being better if you want everything dead, sage if you want repeated runs slightly faster.
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    If I have a leftover crit proc from Highland Cleave and someone is a touch out of melee range I've been known to use ray, but never in a seriously difficult sutuation. It oneshots a few casters in NW, that's about it. I won't be using it on other BMs though...Lol
    I <3 Drakes Ray. Its a perfect filler skill for many chains, ie Fissure and Highland and Tiger maw soak up 5 seconds of your 6 second roar. Throw in a Drake's Ray and you're at 5.7 then start channeling Drake's Bash and it lands 6.1 seconds after your roar started. That's a perfect stunlock and 5 attacks in a 6 seconds time period.

    In otherwords, I do use it like Tiger Maw. Fast skill, bonus damage, short cd. I do tend to save it for ranged players pretty often but with a short cd theres not much worry about using it on one opponent, noticing a ranged opponent and it being ready to hit them, similar to how you used it in your example.

    It's great for fleeing opponents, obviously. Getting that last hit in.

    I especially like the use of fighting someone, they turn to run, now they're in the 5-15m range so I Drake's Ray them while I wait for them to get into my 15-25m range so I can tiger leap->stun them. Tadaaa, they were never out of my attack range.

    This has nothing to do with the sage v demon argument, really. Just personal pvp choices.
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    This is very persuasive.

    Here is how I see it. Sage has some perks but demon has more. If I could replace my demon skills individually with sage which would they be? Perhaps the chi skill but it's up in the air. Highland cleave for sure... but if demon gave instant channel for 10 sec instead of aps, I'd take that. The rest of the skills I'd prefer demon. Remember flag runners can't holypath after digging so slow works just fine.

    This is perfectly stated. Saethos has made some excellent points. Historically people went sage for... who knows why? Some skills got rebalanced and I looked and went "meh, demon still kicks their ***". Saethos has made points that made me go realize sage and demon are much closer than I realized.

    Still, there are just too many demon must-haves and although some of the sage skills are good they're nothing great or that a demon really misses out on.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    You're an idiot. I'll wait for someone competent to reply.
    All the control skills and debuffs you're attempting to flaunt require chi. Without chi a BM is completely useless.

    Also, I'm a 5.0 base sage bm. Eat your heart out.

    Well, so far Saethos is an idiot, I'm an idiot, and TheDan is an idiot. And you have yet to make a new point Saethos didn't already make. You have managed to make some really dumb arguments that I think the BM community as a whole is gonna ignore. 5.0 base sage, eat my heart out? So what you're telling me is you either like to waste time cycloning or you gave up a significant amount of defense in order to gain aps. Funny, since while you gave up defense and aps you also are bad mouthing a spark that gives you the aps you want without wasting time cycloning ever spark cycle, and the sage spark only gets you back to the same defenses as a demon who can use 2 pieces more defensive gear pieces because they don't need them to reach 5 aps.

    As for all our skills requiring chi, we manage. Sure I may not spam skills as often that use chi but by spamming bell and marrows and learning how we conserve our chi and use it at the best times. Its not really a loss, just chi management.

    BTW, for everyone laughing at this dude, his "logic", and his double posts (post 44, 45. Post 33, 34). You can literally see his typing speed when he writes a 70 word post in 6 minutes since you know he didn't take time to think his post through before he wrote it.

    ~~~

    One last thing to mention. We are focusing on mass pvp and NW in this discussion apparently but there is 1v1 and yes, I'm a huge fan of pve. I don't play this game for pvp. It happens and you get plenty of experience in it, but I much more prefer PvE. Obviously demon triple spark, demon HF, demon cyclone, diamond sutra, RotP, all seem to favor PvE. For a huge portion of the player base thats all they care about for sage v demon. Just like my barb I love to PvE on but I hate to PvP on, most people will just be playing bm as an alt for PvE and want to know sage or demon.

    Comments like "if you want to kill stuff in PvP, play a sin" seem narrowminded to me. In a 1v1 who's gonna kill your opponent? So I think it is important to talk about damage potentials and damage chains in PvP. Sure, if I have an archer on the hill I'm just gonna stun, HF, and run but if I'm in NW hunting a flag carrier then I don't want to have to wait for my 19 teammates to get there to kill because 3 of them are probably afk, 10 of them are probably totally ignoring the flag activities, 5 of them are too far away to help or stuck in 1v1 and just trying to manage to stay alive, and the 1 that does show up to help always seems to have a TT80 weapon. So yes, I want to kill stuff in PvP, ty.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You make a good point about Drake's Ray. I do have mine as sage...Hmm...I think I'll play more with it since you seem to be able to explain how it fits in. I'll probably post after NW what I think of throwing it in, couldn't hurt to try it. I use tiger maw in my chains as well, though not as fast as demon by .2 seconds, it's still pretty quick and when it gives me chi, it's nice. It's not really gamebreakingly awesome, just kinda...Nice.

    I also use it on fleeing opponents depending on who it is. IE if it was a sin hitting me for 200 damage a hit, I'll shrug them off when they run and go for the nearest real threat. However, on casters and archers, it's really nice to have. I've had a few mystics knock me back just for me to Drake's Ray them and get a lucky crit or something and kill them. Usually it's Ray then Leap, that way I don't have to leap if I get the kill. If they keep running after I hit them I also tend to leap for them. a BM not using his leaps is like a wiz not using distance shrink.

    I'll keep in mind what you say about it this next coming NW.



    If I could also replace individual skills, I would to. Dat demon roar. I admit, there are a lot of demon skills that I really do miss having and have considered going back, but I don't think I will. It was easier for me to play as a demon because I went demon at 89 and was in tune with my skills since I got them, and when I went sage i was pretty confused. Once I got used to it I realized it was a whole new world. I've made myself and some of my friends proud of my progress, though I still have quite a ways to go.



    Here we are with the chi argument again. The sage chi argument is only valid in the case of HF, however demon HF being so so SO much better than sage HF renders it being worth the chi cost (or rather lack of chi return). The sage chi argument is not valid and I cannot make this clearer. It's just not.



    On the PvE vs PvP thing I have to 100% agree. Demon is definately the trophy taker in PvE easily. This puts the chi argument biased towards demon with the cyclone heel and demon spark basically being a permaspark before genie skills. Sure, if I 3 spark cloud erruption HF with my axe spam, I have the chi for HF as soon as it's off cooldown and can build it up to keep HFing. However, this would take a while to repeat the spark and HF. A demon could have a longer lasting HF with the same combo, whip out a pair of fists, then have the chi to do it all again right away.

    If my diamond sutra gave me crit instead of uberheals I'd finally use the damn thing in PvE. Sutra is a "I have a spark and I'll die...I can sutra and maybe live, or die and have no chi anyway...Here's to hoping then!" kind of skill, especially as a sage skill. However, once you get the promised crits, it's no longer like that. Sage simply supports the emergency usage in PvP, and not even 100% of the time, so I can see the demon sutra argument as perfectly valid.

    I can agree to the narrow mindedness of someone saying that killing in PvP is for a sin. If you are referring to the comment made by me concerning the stuns, I was strictly talking crowd controlling, not killing. Sins can barely crowd control groups (though I have seen some uber pro sins pull off the job of crowd controlling groups, but not many of them) like a BM can. When it comes to killing, that's more a matter of gear for a BM. We aren't really DDs, but since we can use so many crowd controls and damage amps, and also since both cultis can increase crit rates (demon always can but costs chi, sage relys on luck but is free) we can indeed dish out some real punishment when we need to. Here is where I will admit demon would be the victor. Demon is far more reliable for the situations of killing when they are needed.



    Saku has made some good points that argue in demons favor, but as I said the 2 are rather close. I still have no strong feelings in either direction, as I've been both, though this does not mean I know everything about both.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well.. my conclusion on the matter is:

    With all the changes and re-balances Sage and Demon are a lot closer than they ever were before, however a lot of the re-balances of Sage focus on follow up, but not the inception. HF still costs 2 sparks to cast, Drake bash still costs 1 spark to cast; the main thing casting them apart is the given situation you're in.

    A lot of times in TW or PK I'm in a kill or die situation so Demon really suits the "go big or go home" play-style so I'm never alive for a follow up after dropping Hf on a group of R999 JOSD opponents that might require the 9 seconds of HF to kill whereas you can't tank them either so you either kill them or die.

    However if I'm heavily out-gearing my opponents or have a cleric spam healing me and know I will survive for a follow up then Sage HF might have been more useful to drop combo bombs more often, however this may or not be consistent with chi regen of your allies. If your allies are unable to drop ultis again as fast as your HF cool-down spam it might be useless either way.

    It really depends on what you and your squad need compared to what your opponents are... If your server is anything like mine where all the R999 opponents are all in 1 OP faction and all other factions in our server are too weak to last more than 20-30 minutes against them in TW or 1 push in PK then you'll probably want to be the less conservative play-style (demon) whereas if you're destroying your opponents so badly (which I doubt would be the case) you could play conservatively and do more combo bombs.

    Just depends on the situation, but if my server can relate to any other server I'd still stay with demon knowing Sage re-vamps only affect follow up, not inception, and I probably won't stay alive long enough for another bomb rush. I can see sage being more useful if you have the gear or allies to keep you alive for multiple follow ups, whereas demon being more useful if your opponents are strong and you either need to kill them or die trying.
    BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761

    YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well.. my conclusion on the matter is:

    With all the changes and re-balances Sage and Demon are a lot closer than they ever were before, however a lot of the re-balances of Sage focus on follow up, but not the inception. HF still costs 2 sparks to cast, Drake bash still costs 1 spark to cast; the main thing casting them apart is the given situation you're in.

    A lot of times in TW or PK I'm in a kill or die situation so Demon really suits the "go big or go home" play-style so I'm never alive for a follow up after dropping Hf on a group of R999 JOSD opponents that might require the 9 seconds of HF to kill whereas you can't tank them either so you either kill them or die.

    However if I'm heavily out-gearing my opponents or have a cleric spam healing me and know I will survive for a follow up then Sage HF might have been more useful to drop combo bombs more often, however this may or not be consistent with chi regen of your allies. If your allies are unable to drop ultis again as fast as your HF cool-down spam it might be useless either way.

    It really depends on what you and your squad need compared to what your opponents are... If your server is anything like mine where all the R999 opponents are all in 1 OP faction and all other factions in our server are too weak to last more than 20-30 minutes against them in TW or 1 push in PK then you'll probably want to be the less conservative play-style (demon) whereas if you're destroying your opponents so badly (which I doubt would be the case) you could play conservatively and do more combo bombs.

    Just depends on the situation, but if my server can relate to any other server I'd still stay with demon knowing Sage re-vamps only affect follow up, not inception, and I probably won't stay alive long enough for another bomb rush. I can see sage being more useful if you have the gear or allies to keep you alive for multiple follow ups, whereas demon being more useful if your opponents are strong and you either need to kill them or die trying.

    This sums it up pretty well. Of note: Sage BMs will want a defense level r8r weapon.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I suppose since you seem so convinced of demon superiority I'll just have to state that I disagree. I think your reliance of cloud eruption is a waste, and there is nothing wrong with my genie.

    It's ironic you sacrifice potency by stacking so much magic in favor of recovery after saying yourself that you typically die right at the end of a "bomb run".

    Meh.
    chi conservation and better squad buff is much more valuable to me.

    Side Notes:
    I never called Dan an idiot just you.

    I was double posting to keep up with your literary gank tactics <-- totally coining this term lolol
    I'm replying primarily from my cell phone at work.

    Why on earth would a r8r def level weapon be ideal for anyone at all? -.-
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • T_i_m - Dreamweaver
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Every class that doesn't have a purify r9.3 weapon benefits from carrying a r8.2 defense weapon (and a purge weapon too if available). You use it for maneuvering, then switch to your damage or purge weapon when attacking. It's exactly like carrying Jones/omalley and switching blessings as appropriate.


    Edit: Where does the 95% success rate for sage roar come from? I always thought it was based off accuracy which for standard 200 or so dex BM's comes out to a 75% or so chance to hit most non-magic classes. Or, for this skill, are success rate and accuracy synonymous (they aren't for most other skills...)?
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Every class that doesn't have a purify r9.3 weapon benefits from carrying a r8.2 defense weapon (and a purge weapon too if available). You use it for maneuvering, then switch to your damage or purge weapon when attacking. It's exactly like carrying Jones/omalley and switching blessings as appropriate.

    Makes sense. I don't think that is Sage specific though like he stated so i wonder if his answer is the same as yours.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Every class that doesn't have a purify r9.3 weapon benefits from carrying a r8.2 defense weapon (and a purge weapon too if available). You use it for maneuvering, then switch to your damage or purge weapon when attacking. It's exactly like carrying Jones/omalley and switching blessings as appropriate.


    Edit: Where does the 95% success rate for sage roar come from? I always thought it was based off accuracy which for standard 200 or so dex BM's comes out to a 75% or so chance to hit most non-magic classes. Or, for this skill, are success rate and accuracy synonymous (they aren't for most other skills...)?

    It's never actually been known but not highly discussed due to the abundance of demon BMs making it not matter so much, but it's somwhere between a 90 and a 97% chance for demon roar. If you recall when being low level, Roar also had an increase in landing chance when leveling it, though it never stated a percentage. It's sort of like GoF not having an actual rate, but people trying to find a percent range for it to happen.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Makes sense. I don't think that is Sage specific though like he stated so i wonder if his answer is the same as yours.

    Yeah, my bad. Demon BMs should also have it, but if you want to have a good recovery you'll want to stay alive in the process. At the same timg a strong attack weapon for killing would do justice too, but I'd rather play it safe with my defense level axe.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.

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