Updated Sage vs. Demon

Thecashman - Archosaur
Thecashman - Archosaur Posts: 10 Arc User
edited March 2013 in Blademaster
Hi all, I know that it used to be no question demon, but I've heard and observed that aps isn't as OP in pvp as it used to be, and sage pure axe build might even be more viable for tw/nw. Anyone have any good resources and input? Thanks
Post edited by Thecashman - Archosaur on
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Comments

  • XCableX - Archosaur
    XCableX - Archosaur Posts: 1,338 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I still prefer Demon Roar, Drake Bash and Demon Heaven's Flame more viable in TW/NW along with the bell and marrows as well.

    I didn't choose Demon for the APSing part either, maybe except PvE but it's just so fun. But you can always get 4/5aps Sage anyway.

    Oh yeah, and that crit. Always gotta love the crit.
    youtube.com/xArsonist18 : XCableX's TW videos

    pwcalc.com/56b00d33a8c63c7d : Current BM Build for TW
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I still prefer Demon Roar, Drake Bash and Demon Heaven's Flame more viable in TW/NW along with the bell and marrows as well.

    I didn't choose Demon for the APSing part either, maybe except PvE but it's just so fun. But you can always get 4/5aps Sage anyway.

    Oh yeah, and that crit. Always gotta love the crit.

    "Demon for aps" was always the idiot answer. As Cable said demon for longer stuns, demon for 100% accurate stuns, 9 second HF, and balanced marrows. I also much more prefer demon bell and am one of those BMs who constantly spams it for 150% boost instead of sages 90% boost.

    Also, the demon chi skill cd is only 30 seconds so chi suppression on enemies is nice. Sage chi skills is 60 seconds, although one of our sage BMs did make the point that demon targets one person while he can use his chi to effect entire squads of opponents.

    Also, my current favorite combo against purify procs is the demon 100% crit proc on GS and aoe spam. And demon Tiger Maw is a great filler for axe skill spam combos, since its a quick damage boost.

    Admitedly, with r9t3 armor the sage magic marrow is more appealing for pvp. But not for PvE.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Some minro discussions on this topic can be found here http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1522751&page=12 Someone from post 133 to...well idk, really, but it goes on for a bit.

    It will be NW soon on my server so I'll refrain from too much depth, but sage is (and to be honest, always has been) a viable and equal path to go.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • _Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear
    _Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Agreed with Saku. i actually decided to go demon not for aps farming since i already have a farming alt.
    to me demon offer a better control skills than sage (as stated above, longer stun and longer HF etc) and roar that will never fail.
    Some people will argue about bm's chi usage and being full axe bm its hard to get chi back in pvp bla bla bla bla but that can easily be fixed with c.erupt or chi siphon and mo zaun's taunt is great to **** off people in TW/NW, just cast it on a person who's running away and you can't be bothered to catch or running bm prepared to stun + hf a group in tw b:laugh
    100% zhen-free since jan 2009 b:cool
    Living proof that Pay2Win is a load of ****

    My job is to make things go [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:laughb:pleasedb:laughb:pleasedb:laughb:pleased
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mo zaun's taunt is great to **** off people in TW/NW, just cast it on a person who's running away and you can't be bothered to catch or running bm prepared to stun + hf a group in tw b:laugh

    Well...I can have chi suppression to harm one player in enemy squad to support my squad, or I can have chi gain to stun an entire group of people and help my whole squad. It's just playstyle...

    Demon and sage are pretty even, but there will always be more demons than sages.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    It's going to depend alot on weapon swapping, mostly. The main thing sage have over demon is chi gain/conservation. So when sticking with axes, it's more beneficial for sustained chi reserve without resorting to marrow spam. It would also be more helpful the more over-geared the BM is compared to others, since longer stuns/HF doesn't matter as much if they die in a few hits.

    Once weapon swapping is used, then the case for demon becomes better; due to fists being able to replenish chi at a decent rate for use in NW. And if you are fighting someone higher geared, the longer and guaranteed stuns would be much better than getting a bit of extra chi every so often.
  • Ladyblondeh - Raging Tide
    Ladyblondeh - Raging Tide Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Went from demon all wep hybrid to sage pure axe... havent regetted a single day... sage bm b:dirty
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    TY Silvy for Epic Sig <3
    - Sage BM 0.87aps and loving it <3
    youtube.com/channel/UCaZIAPCmpfzSc1ly3mbhjdg
    pwcalc.com/ec23068c36b42d0d somewhere close
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'll attempt a brief pros and cons for both and see if I can hit things on the head...

    Sage:
    -Misconceptions

    Sage chi argument is not valid. We sage BMs have sage tiger maw which is much faster than Demon Drake Sweep, however it is weak and only good in a 1v1 situation. BMs are built to be the trump card in a mass PvP situation, where Drake Sweep takes the gold before Tiger Maw. Demon BMs also have chi surpression twice as fast as sage can use Master Li's technique.

    Sage DPH Argument is not valid. Yes, we have 15% more base attack added, but as a BM every point of crit counts. Demon master and sage mastery are pretty much equal.

    -Pros

    Let's be honest, demon Highland Cleave is a joke. Interval increase that could be done with fists for the same amount and it's an axe skill, so the interval means basically nothing. Sage Highland though, is absolutely godlike when it procs. If you have sage Highland Cleave you'll find yourself using it at every fitting opportunity because the added 20% crit rate you get from it is incredible. Bottom line is, if used appropraitely and it procs, targets die.

    Slowing an enemy is pretty important in Nation Wars to the flag carriers, since you can basically bring them to a standstill with a strong enough debuff. Because of this, I'd have to say Sage Ocean's Edge takes the platinum award here. It has a slight chance to immobilize and guarantees the same slow as a demon. Using it on a flag carrier means that even if it fails, you slowed them down a lot. However, it also has a very short cooldown and becomes very useful when trying to face a kiter and has way more uses than just a flag carrier, such as slowing/stopping a pursuer of an ally flag carrier.

    Sage HF is very good for chaining combos. Back when I was demon I'd be finding myself struggling to finish getting the last bit of chi to HF, use HF, then watch my target quickly turn around and stop my combo. Sure, they still died, but it was very inconvenient. Now with sage HF giving back 75 chi, after I HF I can stun basically instantly even if I only just got the chi to use said HF. This successfully locks the target in place while me and my allys can finish our combos on a target. Sure, it doesn't last as long, but it doesn't need to if it's timed right.

    Sage Diamond Sutra is an incredible heal when it works. Just imagine fighting a BM with decent gear, seeing his charm tick a few times, and then you see he's almost dead. Sooooo close, and then suddenly, without a cleric and without a genie, and you know his apoth is on cooldown, he recovers 70% Max HP!? Now I know, some people are going to say "BUT IT COSTS TOO MUCH CHI!" But before you give me that ****, let me just say you don't use sutra freely. You use it in a "use or die" situation. Granted other situations will also fit it, but here's the reason I mostly use it in a use or die situation. Use one spark, survive, stun enemies, get backup, win game. Don't use spark, die, lost all chi, allys are without BM, they get stunned. Pick one, I'll take the chi cost since you end up without chi anyway.

    And then we have our basics like Drake Bash having a slight chance to not cost a spark, roar costing 10 less chi, stuff like that, which is either minor or just not frequently occurring enough to make a huge difference in the overall argument.

    Sage Bell works wonders when you can't be directly next to or on top of your squad members, which happens a lot. And for situations when your squad is oddly close together, there's always Buddha Guard to use, which I have and do, it's cooldown is alright given the frequency of your squad being close enough for it to hit everyone. It's a bad idea to stay clustered.

    Sage marrows are...dependent on gear. I'll keep this short. In a 1v1 scenario, sage marrows hold the platinum record here, but as mentioned earlier, BMs are a trump card in mass PvP. Let's hit on the way it would benefit a BM in mass PvP. Most physical dealing classes can be found ganging up on pretty tanky people, so they are close together and can be crowd controlled easily. As for archers and seekers who can deal physical damage onto you from a range, it's not very hard to close the distance with Reel In (depending on refines) and Reckless Rush, causing your ability to prevent yourself from taking physical damage increase. These days, the casters are the big threats since they can not only get you from range and be harder to CC, but the r9t3 ones can purify. This, in my opinion, makes the sage marrows more viable since you are more likely to take magical damage than physical damage in a mass PvP scenario

    -Cons

    Sage Fissure is a joke unless you always have a wiz friend following you around like I used to (don't anymore, he quit), and even then it's just kinda...meh. The demon version is significantly better. Either way you'll still be using Fissure for the slow debuff, so the sage version reducing targets fire defense isn't so great.

    Your roar has a chance to fail. I'd trade up my sage roar for demon roar. In the end, sage roar is only 10 less chi, which is easy to gain back. It's not a very good tradeoff, but it does hardly fail, but that small chance that it will really adds up in a large group such as the middle pit of NW or when the enemy faction is flooded on your crystal in TW.

    Demon:

    -Misconceptions

    I can't think of any right now, but if I think of some I'll put it here.

    -Pros

    Stuns are easier to loop and much more reliable. With demon roar having a 100% success chance and also having some time shaved off its cooldown, it becomes amazing in mass PvP and easier to loop stuns in a 1v1 situation. A longer lasting Drake Bash is pretty nice too, it makes it easier in 1v1 for onvious reasons, but it also allows you to stun that "one big threat" in a mass PvP sutiation. When it comes to stunning, the demon BM is great

    As I mentioned earlier, slowing targets is vital in NW, so let's have a look at Fissure. An increased slowed effect by 65% every time. This is incredible in TW and NW, especially when trying to get a group of enemies off of your flag carrier. Stun them with your reliable stun, then use demon Fissure to slow them down when the stun fades. This helps so much I can't even express how much I want it, but you win some you lose some.

    Demon HF lasts longer. Need I say more? Even if your stunlock combo fails, if it's in a 1v1 situation that's ok, just go tank mode and build chi back up. In mass PvP, usually you won't HF when alone unless you know for sure you can kill the target, so there's always someone else there to lock the target down. In my case it's my sin partner, sage tackling slash anyone? This also makes it easier to kill multiple targets since the enemy can be killed and then leave the HF effect on someone else for enough time to take them out too if you don't have high AoE DD power.

    Demon Bell is wonderful when you can cast it on your group. I know, I said some things against the very argument I'm going to make right now when I argued for sage bell, but I'm trying to keep playstyle in mind as much as I can. In the event that you are close to your allys you can quickly use demon bell to grant added defense, more so than if you were sage. This also means you can save Buddha Guard for situations where you and your squad are under VERY heave physical fire.

    When it comes to balanced defense, demon marrows are very handy if you can't afford the really OP gear. Pesky sage assassins can be difficult to stunlock with there Tidal Protection, therefor the added physical defense is nice. This also provides less required crowd controls on seekers and archers, though they should still be being locked.

    Demon Glacial Spike with its chance to give a 100% crit rate is spectacular. Stunning, then using a pole to Glacial Spike a large group and reduce their P.Def by a lot, followed up with a Tangling Mire on a high str genie, get a crit proc, switch to axes and raise hell, you can do absolutely insane damage. And if you have r9 axes and they zerk on your next AoE, you just critzerked on literally everyone in the group while they had an intense amount of P.Def missing.

    -Cons

    Demon Highland is just...Well, I don't see any real use for getting it other than a wee bit of added damage on it. The interval proc doesn't seem worth it.

    Far away targets with demon bell won't get the 75% bonus when you cast it, in which case sage would be better. But one important thing about demon bell is that in order to get the boost in defense, you have to take the time to cast it. During this time you are easily vulnerable to stuns and could easily be killed. If you land your buff bonus, it won't matter when the archer or veno purges you wile you are stunned. It's an easy way to die.

    Conclusion:

    They are basically equal. It all depends on how you play and why you play it that way. My personal style is sage, which is a bit more solo than it is support, whereas demon is all about supporting your squad. The chosen cultivation has a large reflection on the individuals playstyle.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    *demands Saethos formats that to look pretty, makes it as concise as possible, and it gets added to a guide somewhere*
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    *demands Saethos formats that to look pretty, makes it as concise as possible, and it gets added to a guide somewhere*

    Maybe...Maybe...I'm about to PV spam, so I might after depending on my mood.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Your roar has a chance to fail. I'd trade up my sage roar for demon roar. In the end, sage roar is only 10 less chi, which is easy to gain back. It's not a very good tradeoff, but it does hardly fail, but that small chance that it will really adds up in a large group such as the middle pit of NW or when the enemy faction is flooded on your crystal in TW.

    Sage Roar is only 20 chi, not 25. This was changed at the same time hf was changed.
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sage Roar is only 20 chi, not 25. This was changed at the same time hf was changed.

    I keep forgetting that...Still, 15 chi is pretty easy to get back...I know BMs that have Cloud Erruption give them 2 sparks. At that point, what is 15 chi? My CE gives me 150 chi and I manage fine, so I don't think sage roar is a large factor in going sage. If it does effect a choice, it goes against sage in all honesty.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'll attempt a brief pros and cons for both and see if I can hit things on the head...

    Sage:
    -Misconceptions

    Sage chi argument is not valid. We sage BMs have sage tiger maw which is much faster than Demon Drake Sweep, (1.2second Drake vs a 1.1 second Tiger Maw. .1 isn't "much" faster and Tiger Maw isn't as strong.)however it is weak and only good in a 1v1 situation. BMs are built to be the trump card in a mass PvP situation, where Drake Sweep takes the gold before Tiger Maw. Demon BMs also have chi surpression twice as fast as sage can use Master Li's technique.

    Sage DPH Argument is not valid. Yes, we have 15% more base attack added, but as a BM every point of crit counts. Demon master and sage mastery are pretty much equal. (Agreed. Sage is about 2.5% dph better, demon gets 2% crit.)

    -Pros

    Let's be honest, demon Highland Cleave is a joke(partially agree. I talk about this below and how I use it for setups in pvp and for finishing mobs in pve zhen situations.). Interval increase that could be done with fists for the same amount and it's an axe skill, so the interval means basically nothing. Sage Highland though, is absolutely godlike when it procs (yah, pretty jelly of sage HC.). If you have sage Highland Cleave you'll find yourself using it at every fitting opportunity because the added 20% crit rate you get from it is incredible. Bottom line is, if used appropraitely and it procs, targets die.

    Slowing an enemy is pretty important in Nation Wars to the flag carriers, since you can basically bring them to a standstill with a strong enough debuff. Because of this, I'd have to say Sage Ocean's Edge takes the platinum award here. It has a slight chance to immobilize and guarantees the same slow as a demon. Using it on a flag carrier means that even if it fails, you slowed them down a lot. However, it also has a very short cooldown and becomes very useful when trying to face a kiter and has way more uses than just a flag carrier, such as slowing/stopping a pursuer of an ally flag carrier. (Using Fissure there is not much reason to use Ocean's Edge for the slow effect, and demon Fissure has a greater slow effect than sage Ocean's Edge, as well as higher damage. The only real benefit of Ocean's edge is a 1/5 chance that is procs a freeze so they can't HP away while slowed and 20% chance is not great. Sage Ocean's vs Demon Ocean's, sure I'll give it to sage. But would I use sage Ocean's often when I have a higher DDing Fissure with a greater slow that might just kill the flag carrier, no. So Sage Ocean's vs Demon Fissure I'd go with demon Fissure.)

    Sage HF is very good for chaining combos. Back when I was demon I'd be finding myself struggling to finish getting the last bit of chi to HF, use HF, then watch my target quickly turn around and stop my combo. Sure, they still died, but it was very inconvenient. Now with sage HF giving back 75 chi, after I HF I can stun basically instantly even if I only just got the chi to use said HF. This successfully locks the target in place while me and my allys can finish our combos on a target. Sure, it doesn't last as long, but it doesn't need to if it's timed right. (The difference here is starting with 2 sparks vs starting with 2.35 so you can use RotP after HFing. If you're sage, you probably won't want to waste 2-2.5 seconds of your 6 second HF spark stunning anyways except maybe DB as a finishing blow or in mass pvp. If demon, we can stun and still have 6.5-7 seconds of HF time left. We also now have the option of using Flame Tsunami, a 90% stun skill that's pretty beastly and great on an HF'd opponent, as long as your hp is less than 75% also.)

    Sage Diamond Sutra is an incredible heal when it works (Agreed, when it works. At 20% rate, for 1 spark, with a 60 second cooldown counting on it working often doesn't even register.). Just imagine fighting a BM with decent gear, seeing his charm tick a few times, and then you see he's almost dead. Sooooo close, and then suddenly, without a cleric and without a genie, and you know his apoth is on cooldown, he recovers 70% Max HP!? Now I know, some people are going to say "BUT IT COSTS TOO MUCH CHI!" But before you give me that ****, let me just say you don't use sutra freely. You use it in a "use or die" situation. Granted other situations will also fit it, but here's the reason I mostly use it in a use or die situation. Use one spark, survive, stun enemies, get backup, win game. Don't use spark, die, lost all chi, allys are without BM, they get stunned. Pick one, I'll take the chi cost since you end up without chi anyway.

    And then we have our basics like Drake Bash having a slight chance to not cost a spark, roar costing 10 less chi, stuff like that, which is either minor or just not frequently occurring enough to make a huge difference in the overall argument.

    Sage Bell works wonders when you can't be directly next to or on top of your squad members, which happens a lot. And for situations when your squad is oddly close together, there's always(Always? As in once every 10 mins? We should have gotten 2 min cd like archers BV.) Buddha Guard to use, which I have and do, it's cooldown is alright given the frequency of your squad being close enough for it to hit everyone. It's a bad idea to stay clustered.

    Sage marrows are...dependent on gear. I'll keep this short. In a 1v1 scenario, sage marrows hold the platinum record here, but as mentioned earlier, BMs are a trump card in mass PvP. Let's hit on the way it would benefit a BM in mass PvP. Most physical dealing classes can be found ganging up on pretty tanky people, so they are close together and can be crowd controlled easily. As for archers and seekers who can deal physical damage onto you from a range, it's not very hard to close the distance with Reel In (depending on refines) and Reckless Rush, causing your ability to prevent yourself from taking physical damage increase. These days, the casters are the big threats since they can not only get you from range and be harder to CC, but the r9t3 ones can purify. This, in my opinion, makes the sage marrows more viable since you are more likely to take magical damage than physical damage in a mass PvP scenario (Agreed, and good analysis. Not to mention Seeker debuffs+QpQ combos and their magic damage.)

    -Cons

    Sage Fissure is a joke unless you always have a wiz friend following you around like I used to (don't anymore, he quit), and even then it's just kinda...meh. The demon version is significantly better. Either way you'll still be using Fissure for the slow debuff, so the sage version reducing targets fire defense isn't so great. (Think the original theory was combining it with HFs fire damage or Drakes Breath Bash but... yah.)

    Your roar has a chance to fail. I'd trade up my sage roar for demon roar. In the end, sage roar is only 10 less chi, which is easy to gain back. It's not a very good tradeoff, but it does hardly fail,(There's been discussions about raising recomended dex for the 600-700 dex sins and archers. Even emperor tome casters walk around with 80 dex. Maybe 300 dex BMs with higher crit and accuracy would do better? But accuracy rings go a long way and its probably not worth the loss in dph. You'll miss sins because of your accuracy and you'll miss sins because of tidal protection. You'll miss archers because of accuracy and you'll miss them because of WoP, Blessing of the Condor, and they've got Wings of Grade and Alacrity + Vacs for 38 seconds of antistun. And that's all before genies play a roll. As great as never missing RotP is missing and antistuns and and resist status effects are all so common nowadays its something we've become used to. Then they introduce Purify proc so you can "never miss stun" and 1 attack later they're unstunned >.<) but that small chance that it will really adds up in a large group such as the middle pit of NW or when the enemy faction is flooded on your crystal in TW.

    Demon:

    -Misconceptions

    I can't think of any right now, but if I think of some I'll put it here.

    -Pros

    Stuns are easier to loop and much more reliable. With demon roar having a 100% success chance and also having some time shaved off its cooldown, it becomes amazing in mass PvP and easier to loop stuns in a 1v1 situation. A longer lasting Drake Bash is pretty nice too, it makes it easier in 1v1 for onvious reasons, but it also allows you to stun that "one big threat" in a mass PvP sutiation. When it comes to stunning, the demon BM is great

    As I mentioned earlier, slowing targets is vital in NW, so let's have a look at Fissure. An increased slowed effect by 65% every time. This is incredible in TW and NW, especially when trying to get a group of enemies off of your flag carrier. Stun them with your reliable stun, then use demon Fissure to slow them down when the stun fades. This helps so much I can't even express how much I want it, but you win some you lose some.

    Demon HF lasts longer. Need I say more? Even if your stunlock combo fails, if it's in a 1v1 situation that's ok, just go tank mode and build chi back up. (I use fists and demon's longer stuns and I can stunlock and gain chi. They either have to burn their genie or sit there and take it, either way a plus for me)In mass PvP, usually you won't HF when alone unless you know for sure you can kill the target, so there's always someone else there to lock the target down. In my case it's my sin partner, sage tackling slash anyone? This also makes it easier to kill multiple targets since the enemy can be killed and then leave the HF effect on someone else for enough time to take them out too if you don't have high AoE DD power.

    Demon Bell is wonderful when you can cast it on your group. I know, I said some things against the very argument I'm going to make right now when I argued for sage bell, but I'm trying to keep playstyle in mind as much as I can. In the event that you are close to your allys you can quickly use demon bell to grant added defense, more so than if you were sage. This also means you can save Buddha Guard for situations where you and your squad are under VERY heave physical fire. (I... was gonna add comments here but its hard to describe proper timing for bell in TW. I largely use it after I've stunned and while I'm waiting for dd's to come in to help me kill.)

    When it comes to balanced defense, demon marrows are very handy if you can't afford the really OP gear. Pesky sage assassins can be difficult to stunlock with there Tidal Protection, therefor the added physical defense is nice. This also provides less required crowd controls on seekers and archers, though they should still be being locked.

    Demon Glacial Spike with its chance to give a 100% crit rate is spectacular. Stunning, then using a pole to Glacial Spike a large group and reduce their P.Def by a lot, followed up with a Tangling Mire on a high str genie, get a crit proc, switch to axes and raise hell, you can do absolutely insane damage. (MUAHAHA!)And if you have r9 axes and they zerk on your next AoE, you just critzerked on literally everyone in the group while they had an intense amount of P.Def missing.

    -Cons

    Demon Highland is just...Well, I don't see any real use for getting it other than a wee bit of added damage on it. The interval proc doesn't seem worth it.

    Far away targets with demon bell won't get the 75% bonus when you cast it, in which case sage would be better. But one important thing about demon bell is that in order to get the boost in defense, you have to take the time to cast it. During this time you are easily vulnerable to stuns and could easily be killed. If you land your buff bonus, it won't matter when the archer or veno purges you wile you are stunned. It's an easy way to die. (Should mention the magic marrow + bell combo at least for totally jacked up defenses. What would be insane is demon bell and sage mag marrow)

    Conclusion:

    They are basically equal. It all depends on how you play and why you play it that way. My personal style is sage, which is a bit more solo than it is support, whereas demon is all about supporting your squad. Hmm, I don't see that either one is really much better for solo or support. The chosen cultivation has a large reflection on the individuals playstyle.

    Sorry for the improper quote responses in color but I did it because there was little I could refute but a few things I could add my 2 cents onto. And it was such a great write-up best thing I could do is quote it so it's here twice.

    I still think there is no contest between sage and demon. I like your write up because its (almost) completely fair and impartial, but I chose demon because I honestly think its better and there are just too many things sage miss that demon's offer.

    One thing I can add is I'm still one of those BMs that whips out claws in PvP about 25% of the time. Sometimes for damage, sometimes for chi. Maybe that'll change when I +10 my axes, but comparing +5 r9t3 axes with 2x exclusive shards vs my +10 claws with 1 exclusive the claws seriously out dd the axes over time. So if I set things up properly, like having OI ready so I don't have to waste time stunning again, debuffs on my opponent, aps increase, and a fresh charm tick I can mow most people down. Demon Highland cleave occasionaly saves me the need to add a cyclone in "just because". Its also our hardest hitting aoe so I can usually get my charm tick with it then switch to claws and have the aps increase. Its not a popular thing to do since BMs have been 'omg dph for pvp! Need a zerk" lately, but I can aps about as much dps as 3 zerk crits in a row while 4 chained zerk crits beats my aps. How often do you get 4 zerk crits chained? This is for your high hp opponents and not casters. Its also useful for cleaning up the last 3 mobs at the end of a zhen group with fists. So demon HC is not completely useless.

    Still, there are a few total scale tippers for demon.

    7.5 sec Drake's Bash + 6 sec RotP=13.5 seconds. RotP's 14 second cooldown means and DBs 15 second cooldown is about a perfect stunlock making it much easier to time. As the skill coolsdown, use it. Sage either needs to use their genie or a 50% chance Aeolian (3 second stun) or Flame Tsunami I guess.

    HF equals 9 seconds. That's just... huge. By the time most your squads target the HF'd victims and channel its usually over. The reduction of chi for sages is nice but not as valuable as you describe. You still need 2 sparks to start, and demons need 2.35. Not huge.

    Marrows- I'm changing my mind on demon marrows being so valuable. Yes they were great at one time as sage meant you still died, just from the opposite type of damage. Now with such massive stats sage is quite nice as you're still covered in the opposite end of defenses. For instance with an unsharded r9t3 axe/fist build demon def is 19.3k pdef and 19k mdef, while sage is 16.7 and 20.8k mdef. Demon is more balanced but lets face it, magic is what matters and sage gives more and longer makes you completely vulnerable to physical damage.

    Demon Diamond Sutra- 10% crit is pretty excellent. ijs.

    Demon Glacial Spike. This is my go-to move against casters with purify proc lately. 2 second cast is easier to fit in then a triple spark, it doesn't set off as many alarms as HF does for most people so they tend to not immediately HP away or AD, and hte 90% pdef debuff+100 crit rate +GoF weapon means I'm likely to finish a fight in the next 2-3 hits before a purify proc.

    Masteries- 2% crit is great but so is 90% weapon damage. 15% weapon damage last time I checked was between 2-3% more dph. So the dph difference is only somethinglike .4% But critting, and especially critting with a GoF weapon is the goal. Especially against endgame opponents who take multiple zerk crits to bring down. Takes luck slightly out of the equation.

    Bell- Always a hot button topic. Drives me nuts when I have to run with a sage BM because I spam my bell like there's no tomorrow in runs at every break in the run and then feel bad for overwriting sage's "better" bell. Regardless, my squad has 150% def boost when they need it instead of sage's 90%. I think the real issue here is demon BMs having so much versatility to be the tank or the dd they've forgotten how to also support and don't bell buff a sin to help them during the strong parts of a boss attack. That and the fact why does your sin need 150% def boost with most of todays endgame gear around?
    One of my issues is having Sins be like "I love sage bell. It gives me so much def?" And I ask them how much and they respond I'm up to 13.2k. I'm thinking "sage bell gives me about 600 more pdef and I'm at 24k (does the math backwards from 24k to a starting point of around 13k... they're getting about 250 more pdef which is hardly anything. Its largely a placebo effect and our social atmosphere that makes people think sage bell is that much better.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Guys...

    Format it nicely and get it concise. Not that we really need to deal with the TL:DR crowd that much, but the more concise and clear the better it is understood.

    *cracks whip*
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • XCableX - Archosaur
    XCableX - Archosaur Posts: 1,338 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    pls don't hurt me. pls :(

    Hm, good info though, I guess I can go reformat what maelael wants. Whatever the master desires.
    youtube.com/xArsonist18 : XCableX's TW videos

    pwcalc.com/56b00d33a8c63c7d : Current BM Build for TW
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well Cable, Saethos, Saku, whoever.

    I think now with the advent of NW the "Balance" of sage vs demon is there. So points on styles and the differences along with expectations of each culti is more valid of a discussion. Having a good, clear and concise explanation from people on both sides of the fence would be very useful to people.

    We also really need to clean up and make a guide on "Accuracy and you - why pure axe without a bunch of accuracy is fail".
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Too lazy to reply to all of that, just got back from work, hungry, and not feeling too well. The sage Ocean's Edge vs the demon fissure thing, I typically find sage OE to come very handy when someone else has stunned the target. Not to mention, sage slows by 60% vs demon fissure doing 65%, it's only a matter of how many targets there are, who's in range, and then a 5% difference. Demon fissure definitely takes the glory in groups, but in the situations where you have a lot of stunning potential you can use sage/level 10 fissure to slow down the big group while they are stunned and make an attempt on a freeze just as stun fades without costing any chi or putting Reckless Rush on cooldown. Sure, it's not guaranteed, but it's pretty nice to have.

    It's also a good follow up (albeit relying on luck) in 1v1 stunlocks against ranged classes. Just as you know a stun is dying, take the moment to Ocean's Edge. If it freezes, wonderful! If not, they target would have needed holy path or to be a wizard with Distance Shrink. This means you put their genie on cooldown, close the distance, then lock them down. This also strongly depends on your enemy...

    And yes Maelael. We need to explain why so small base dex is a bad thing. I won't go less than 150 dex, but that's because most sins and archers on my server are trash, so I typically barely need to worry about them.

    EDIT: Also don't forget tidal wafers for the 50% P.Def add. Easy to get, very well usable before a serious fight, use it when your apoc has time to cooldown. Demon bell doesn't have that advantage.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    EDIT: Also don't forget tidal wafers for the 50% P.Def add. Easy to get, very well usable before a serious fight, use it when your apoc has time to cooldown. Demon bell doesn't have that advantage.

    I wish they would make pdef increases similar to crit so it can't be overbuffed. First one on, stays. Ofc better would be they stacked but I can see the potential for 50-60k pdef demon BMs running around as a bad thing. Granted demon bell is better than tidal wafers and base buffs, but not as good as sage vanguards I hate it when I bell after getting a base buff, or have a sage cleric overwrite and remove my base buff.

    I recently resumed soloing Nix runs pushing for lvl 104 and can do 4 per token, and have the shroud token so another 4. 8 total. I don't have 7 other 100s on different accounts so I rely on friends to open for me and I get the occasional friend thats soooo nice they demon bell me or sage vanguard and overwrite my base buff right before they leave squad and I start all my runs.

    b:sad

    Still, against phys mobs stunning first and then demon belling right before stun wheres off is almost as good as stunlocking a group because with +150% pdef you take almost no damage.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I wish they would make pdef increases similar to crit so it can't be overbuffed. First one on, stays. Ofc better would be they stacked but I can see the potential for 50-60k pdef demon BMs running around as a bad thing. Granted demon bell is better than tidal wafers and base buffs, but not as good as sage vanguards I hate it when I bell after getting a base buff, or have a sage cleric overwrite and remove my base buff.

    I recently resumed soloing Nix runs pushing for lvl 104 and can do 4 per token, and have the shroud token so another 4. 8 total. I don't have 7 other 100s on different accounts so I rely on friends to open for me and I get the occasional friend thats soooo nice they demon bell me or sage vanguard and overwrite my base buff right before they leave squad and I start all my runs.

    b:sad

    Still, against phys mobs stunning first and then demon belling right before stun wheres off is almost as good as stunlocking a group because with +150% pdef you take almost no damage.

    Eh, considering once you hit about 36k P.Def or something close to that, you can't reduce physical damage taken by more than 90% off raw defense, that's where sage physical marrow makes up for it. You won't use sage P.Marrow in any other situation though, knocking my M.Def down to double digits no cleric buff is suicide against a sin. I reach about 37k P.Def with marrow, sage bell, and cleric buff, no tidal wafer, so I don't have to take the time to cast bell again

    This is also dependent on your ring refines...I have a +6 Sky Cover, which stacks high with marrow.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Can you afford full r999 +10 or higher with endgame shards?

    Grats it doesn't matter what your culti is

    For anything else demon still flat out abuses sage

    Pve = sage burns geni harder than demon and gets less out of it or saves geni and does a lot less damage.

    Pvp = Mele range is stupid, really stupid. But its what we've got. Stuns are really the only way to kill someone at your gear level or above. Demon stuns win. Demon wins.

    Unless magical faeries come out of my **** and make bm's a ranged class Sage was and will always be the inferior culti in pvp.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Can you afford full r999 +10 or higher with endgame shards?

    Grats it doesn't matter what your culti is

    For anything else demon still flat out abuses sage

    Pve = sage burns geni harder than demon and gets less out of it or saves geni and does a lot less damage.

    Pvp = Mele range is stupid, really stupid. But its what we've got. Stuns are really the only way to kill someone at your gear level or above. Demon stuns win. Demon wins.

    Unless magical faeries come out of my **** and make bm's a ranged class Sage was and will always be the inferior culti in pvp.

    I'm sage. I don't burn genie. People consider me very hard to kill. My gear is only r8r (t3 Nirv is now better). BM is not a killer, BM is a crowd control. If you are stunning to kill rather than to support your allys, you're playing it wrong and should be an assassin.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'm sage. I don't burn genie. People consider me very hard to kill. My gear is only r8r (t3 Nirv is now better). BM is not a killer, BM is a crowd control. If you are stunning to kill rather than to support your allys, you're playing it wrong and should be an assassin.

    +1

    Sage Dragons regains 75 chi, effectively costing us only 1.25 sparks so that we always have chi for the follow up.

    Sage Drakes Bash has been given an increased chance to cost 0 chi, now being free 33% of the time.

    Sage Roar costs less chi, allowing us to keep our chi up for a greater duration.

    Sage Chi Gain gives us chi to use our control skills and debuffs on entire groups of people as opposed to demon chi drain letting you remove the power of a single target.

    Sage magical marrow is superior when escaping is the goal, ie carrying a flag or escaping to your group in war after roar/dragon.
    (Of the 7 classes that do not have to keep you in melee range to effectively DD, only 1 is physical)

    Sage Spark is better in every way at the end of the game. Demon's effect is useless whether you're fist or axe assuming best gears.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide
    Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide Posts: 452 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Revenge if you are reading this, demon BMs suck >.>
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'll attempt a brief pros and cons for both and see if I can hit things on the head...

    Sage:
    -Misconceptions

    Sage chi argument is not valid. We sage BMs have sage tiger maw which is much faster than Demon Drake Sweep, however it is weak and only good in a 1v1 situation. BMs are built to be the trump card in a mass PvP situation, where Drake Sweep takes the gold before Tiger Maw. Demon BMs also have chi surpression twice as fast as sage can use Master Li's technique.

    Sage DPH Argument is not valid. Yes, we have 15% more base attack added, but as a BM every point of crit counts. Demon master and sage mastery are pretty much equal.

    -Pros

    Let's be honest, demon Highland Cleave is a joke. Interval increase that could be done with fists for the same amount and it's an axe skill, so the interval means basically nothing. Sage Highland though, is absolutely godlike when it procs. If you have sage Highland Cleave you'll find yourself using it at every fitting opportunity because the added 20% crit rate you get from it is incredible. Bottom line is, if used appropraitely and it procs, targets die.

    Slowing an enemy is pretty important in Nation Wars to the flag carriers, since you can basically bring them to a standstill with a strong enough debuff. Because of this, I'd have to say Sage Ocean's Edge takes the platinum award here. It has a slight chance to immobilize and guarantees the same slow as a demon. Using it on a flag carrier means that even if it fails, you slowed them down a lot. However, it also has a very short cooldown and becomes very useful when trying to face a kiter and has way more uses than just a flag carrier, such as slowing/stopping a pursuer of an ally flag carrier.

    Meh, Sage Ocean's Edge is barely a pro imo, reckless rush is a much more reliable stun, and whirlwind is an aoe paralyze + slow. I completely deleted this skill off my hotkeys when I was sage as it only gives 5 chi per cast and spamming tiger maw for chi was much more effective

    Sage HF is very good for chaining combos. Back when I was demon I'd be finding myself struggling to finish getting the last bit of chi to HF, use HF, then watch my target quickly turn around and stop my combo. Sure, they still died, but it was very inconvenient. Now with sage HF giving back 75 chi, after I HF I can stun basically instantly even if I only just got the chi to use said HF. This successfully locks the target in place while me and my allys can finish our combos on a target. Sure, it doesn't last as long, but it doesn't need to if it's timed right.

    Sage Diamond Sutra is an incredible heal when it works. Just imagine fighting a BM with decent gear, seeing his charm tick a few times, and then you see he's almost dead. Sooooo close, and then suddenly, without a cleric and without a genie, and you know his apoth is on cooldown, he recovers 70% Max HP!? Now I know, some people are going to say "BUT IT COSTS TOO MUCH CHI!" But before you give me that ****, let me just say you don't use sutra freely. You use it in a "use or die" situation. Granted other situations will also fit it, but here's the reason I mostly use it in a use or die situation. Use one spark, survive, stun enemies, get backup, win game. Don't use spark, die, lost all chi, allys are without BM, they get stunned. Pick one, I'll take the chi cost since you end up without chi anyway.

    And then we have our basics like Drake Bash having a slight chance to not cost a spark, roar costing 10 less chi, stuff like that, which is either minor or just not frequently occurring enough to make a huge difference in the overall argument.

    Sage Bell works wonders when you can't be directly next to or on top of your squad members, which happens a lot. And for situations when your squad is oddly close together, there's always Buddha Guard to use, which I have and do, it's cooldown is alright given the frequency of your squad being close enough for it to hit everyone. It's a bad idea to stay clustered.

    Sage marrows are...dependent on gear. I'll keep this short. In a 1v1 scenario, sage marrows hold the platinum record here, but as mentioned earlier, BMs are a trump card in mass PvP. Let's hit on the way it would benefit a BM in mass PvP. Most physical dealing classes can be found ganging up on pretty tanky people, so they are close together and can be crowd controlled easily. As for archers and seekers who can deal physical damage onto you from a range, it's not very hard to close the distance with Reel In (depending on refines) and Reckless Rush, causing your ability to prevent yourself from taking physical damage increase. These days, the casters are the big threats since they can not only get you from range and be harder to CC, but the r9t3 ones can purify. This, in my opinion, makes the sage marrows more viable since you are more likely to take magical damage than physical damage in a mass PvP scenario

    Ehhh, I don't think I completely agree here, sage marrows are much worse in mass PvP as archers will completely destroy BMs in sage marrows, this is one of the reasons why I switched demon because the marrows would always get me killed. You can actually tank casters with m def charms since they still take longer to channel / cast whereas any semi APS built archer / sin would kill you in one stun duration

    -Cons

    Sage Fissure is a joke unless you always have a wiz friend following you around like I used to (don't anymore, he quit), and even then it's just kinda...meh. The demon version is significantly better. Either way you'll still be using Fissure for the slow debuff, so the sage version reducing targets fire defense isn't so great.

    I'd say they're about even, they're both equally useless. Holy Path overrides it so it's not very effective either way

    Your roar has a chance to fail. I'd trade up my sage roar for demon roar. In the end, sage roar is only 10 less chi, which is easy to gain back. It's not a very good tradeoff, but it does hardly fail, but that small chance that it will really adds up in a large group such as the middle pit of NW or when the enemy faction is flooded on your crystal in TW.

    Demon:

    -Misconceptions

    I can't think of any right now, but if I think of some I'll put it here.

    -Pros

    Stuns are easier to loop and much more reliable. With demon roar having a 100% success chance and also having some time shaved off its cooldown, it becomes amazing in mass PvP and easier to loop stuns in a 1v1 situation. A longer lasting Drake Bash is pretty nice too, it makes it easier in 1v1 for onvious reasons, but it also allows you to stun that "one big threat" in a mass PvP sutiation. When it comes to stunning, the demon BM is great

    As I mentioned earlier, slowing targets is vital in NW, so let's have a look at Fissure. An increased slowed effect by 65% every time. This is incredible in TW and NW, especially when trying to get a group of enemies off of your flag carrier. Stun them with your reliable stun, then use demon Fissure to slow them down when the stun fades. This helps so much I can't even express how much I want it, but you win some you lose some.

    Demon HF lasts longer. Need I say more? Even if your stunlock combo fails, if it's in a 1v1 situation that's ok, just go tank mode and build chi back up. In mass PvP, usually you won't HF when alone unless you know for sure you can kill the target, so there's always someone else there to lock the target down. In my case it's my sin partner, sage tackling slash anyone? This also makes it easier to kill multiple targets since the enemy can be killed and then leave the HF effect on someone else for enough time to take them out too if you don't have high AoE DD power.

    Demon Bell is wonderful when you can cast it on your group. I know, I said some things against the very argument I'm going to make right now when I argued for sage bell, but I'm trying to keep playstyle in mind as much as I can. In the event that you are close to your allys you can quickly use demon bell to grant added defense, more so than if you were sage. This also means you can save Buddha Guard for situations where you and your squad are under VERY heave physical fire.

    When it comes to balanced defense, demon marrows are very handy if you can't afford the really OP gear. Pesky sage assassins can be difficult to stunlock with there Tidal Protection, therefor the added physical defense is nice. This also provides less required crowd controls on seekers and archers, though they should still be being locked.

    Demon Glacial Spike with its chance to give a 100% crit rate is spectacular. Stunning, then using a pole to Glacial Spike a large group and reduce their P.Def by a lot, followed up with a Tangling Mire on a high str genie, get a crit proc, switch to axes and raise hell, you can do absolutely insane damage. And if you have r9 axes and they zerk on your next AoE, you just critzerked on literally everyone in the group while they had an intense amount of P.Def missing.

    -Cons

    Demon Highland is just...Well, I don't see any real use for getting it other than a wee bit of added damage on it. The interval proc doesn't seem worth it.

    Far away targets with demon bell won't get the 75% bonus when you cast it, in which case sage would be better. But one important thing about demon bell is that in order to get the boost in defense, you have to take the time to cast it. During this time you are easily vulnerable to stuns and could easily be killed. If you land your buff bonus, it won't matter when the archer or veno purges you wile you are stunned. It's an easy way to die.

    Conclusion:

    They are basically equal. It all depends on how you play and why you play it that way. My personal style is sage, which is a bit more solo than it is support, whereas demon is all about supporting your squad. The chosen cultivation has a large reflection on the individuals playstyle.

    in red
    BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761

    YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    in red

    Dan, i think the guy you quoted is a moron. If you can derail what i said though, I'd like to see it
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sage Dragons regains 75 chi, effectively costing us only 1.25 sparks so that we always have chi for the follow up.

    Not a real big deal for demon's to not HF until you have 2.35 sparks for HF + stun... The 9 second HF is obviously much more valuable than the 75 chi. 75 chi is nice, sure, but not even something most will care about.
    Sage Drakes Bash has been given an increased chance to cost 0 chi, now being free 33% of the time.
    35% chance. Again, more chi. Something I'm so concerned about I carry fists, apocs, cloud eruption... Chi is a slight problem but any experience BM learns how to manage it.
    Sage Roar costs less chi, allowing us to keep our chi up for a greater duration.

    K. Sage wins in the chi department lol. Demon's just get killing, stunning, controlling, HFing, defenses...
    Sage Chi Gain gives us chi to use our control skills and debuffs on entire groups of people as opposed to demon chi drain letting you remove the power of a single target.

    Similarly, chi control on that single target can prevent them from aoeing your squad or setting up killing blows against barbs/clerics. Both have equal uses. Demon just gets to use it twice as often.
    Sage magical marrow is superior when escaping is the goal, ie carrying a flag or escaping to your group in war after roar/dragon.
    (Of the 7 classes that do not have to keep you in melee range to effectively DD, only 1 is physical)

    Good call. And I've never seen a BM use Drakes Ray or a Sin use Knife Throw in a pvp situation so you're perfectly safe. Or a BM get stunned/frozen from mistiming IGs during a stun and run situation. Clerics, archers, seekers, wizards... none of them have physical ranged skills so completely nerfing your pdef is totally safe.
    Sage Spark is better in every way at the end of the game. Demon's effect is useless whether you're fist or axe assuming best gears.

    Wuh? More damage output is a bad thing? Especially when you are comparing 3.33 aps vs 5 aps being a 50% difference in dd power. Sure you can cyclone to 4.0 but then you're giving up 2 seconds of attacks to do it and are back to near 50% less dd for claws, unless 4.0 base. If you're sage and aiming for 4.0 base you're probably sacrificing about as much defense in gear as your 25% spark reduction gives you.

    If we're talking axe-only BMs then the 25% reduction is probably better than the 25% aps. Its a poor build choice, imo, so thats the first problem, but I'd say if you are skill spamming axe (as your should be) then obviously sage has the benefit. For most of us 25% damage reduction isn't important in pve because we have significant defenses and we're not triple sparking in pvp.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Not a real big deal for demon's to not HF until you have 2.35 sparks for HF + stun... The 9 second HF is obviously much more valuable than the 75 chi. 75 chi is nice, sure, but not even something most will care about.


    35% chance. Again, more chi. Something I'm so concerned about I carry fists, apocs, cloud eruption... Chi is a slight problem but any experience BM learns how to manage it.



    K. Sage wins in the chi department lol. Demon's just get killing, stunning, controlling, HFing, defenses...

    You're an idiot. I'll wait for someone competent to rely

    Similarly, chi control on that single target can prevent them from aoeing your squad or setting up killing blows against barbs/clerics. Both have equal uses. Demon just gets to use it twice as often.



    Good call. And I've never seen a BM use Drakes Ray or a Sin use Knife Throw in a pvp situation so you're perfectly safe. Or a BM get stunned/frozen from mistiming IGs during a stun and run situation. Clerics, archers, seekers, wizards... none of them have physical ranged skills so completely nerfing your pdef is totally safe.



    Wuh? More damage output is a bad thing? Especially when you are comparing 3.33 aps vs 5 aps being a 50% difference in dd power. Sure you can cyclone to 4.0 but then you're giving up 2 seconds of attacks to do it and are back to near 50% less dd for claws, unless 4.0 base. If you're sage and aiming for 4.0 base you're probably sacrificing about as much defense in gear as your 25% spark reduction gives you.

    If we're talking axe-only BMs then the 25% reduction is probably better than the 25% aps. Its a poor build choice, imo, so thats the first problem, but I'd say if you are skill spamming axe (as your should be) then obviously sage has the benefit. For most of us 25% damage reduction isn't important in pve because we have significant defenses and we're not triple sparking in pvp.
    You're an idiot. I'll wait for someone competent to reply.
    All the control skills and debuffs you're attempting to flaunt require chi. Without chi a BM is completely useless.

    Yes melee classes do generally have a couple mid range attacks, none can spam them.

    Also, I'm a 5.0 base sage bm. Eat your heart out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Not a real big deal for demon's to not HF until you have 2.35 sparks for HF + stun... The 9 second HF is obviously much more valuable than the 75 chi. 75 chi is nice, sure, but not even something most will care about.
    Demon HF lasts longer. Need I say more? Even if your stunlock combo fails, if it's in a 1v1 situation that's ok, just go tank mode and build chi back up. In mass PvP, usually you won't HF when alone unless you know for sure you can kill the target, so there's always someone else there to lock the target down. In my case it's my sin partner, sage tackling slash anyone? This also makes it easier to kill multiple targets since the enemy can be killed and then leave the HF effect on someone else for enough time to take them out too if you don't have high AoE DD power.

    35% chance. Again, more chi. Something I'm so concerned about I carry fists, apocs, cloud eruption... Chi is a slight problem but any experience BM learns how to manage it.



    K. Sage wins in the chi department lol. Demon's just get killing, stunning, controlling, HFing, defenses...
    I'll attempt a brief pros and cons for both and see if I can hit things on the head...

    Sage:
    -Misconceptions

    Sage chi argument is not valid. We sage BMs have sage tiger maw which is much faster than Demon Drake Sweep, however it is weak and only good in a 1v1 situation. BMs are built to be the trump card in a mass PvP situation, where Drake Sweep takes the gold before Tiger Maw. Demon BMs also have chi surpression twice as fast as sage can use Master Li's technique.
    Similarly, chi control on that single target can prevent them from aoeing your squad or setting up killing blows against barbs/clerics. Both have equal uses. Demon just gets to use it twice as often.
    Valid point.

    Good call. And I've never seen a BM use Drakes Ray or a Sin use Knife Throw in a pvp situation so you're perfectly safe. Or a BM get stunned/frozen from mistiming IGs during a stun and run situation. Clerics, archers, seekers, wizards... none of them have physical ranged skills so completely nerfing your pdef is totally safe.

    If I have a leftover crit proc from Highland Cleave and someone is a touch out of melee range I've been known to use ray, but never in a seriously difficult sutuation. It oneshots a few casters in NW, that's about it. I won't be using it on other BMs though...Lol
    Wuh? More damage output is a bad thing? Especially when you are comparing 3.33 aps vs 5 aps being a 50% difference in dd power. Sure you can cyclone to 4.0 but then you're giving up 2 seconds of attacks to do it and are back to near 50% less dd for claws, unless 4.0 base. If you're sage and aiming for 4.0 base you're probably sacrificing about as much defense in gear as your 25% spark reduction gives you.

    If we're talking axe-only BMs then the 25% reduction is probably better than the 25% aps. Its a poor build choice, imo, so thats the first problem, but I'd say if you are skill spamming axe (as your should be) then obviously sage has the benefit. For most of us 25% damage reduction isn't important in pve because we have significant defenses and we're not triple sparking in pvp.
    Put it this way. So, I have the flag, anti stun and apoc is on cooldown. I do, however, have chi on account of my sage veno partner. I just got purged and stunned...Wellp, time to spam click sage spark. Reduce damage taken plus the immunity to set off their stun times. Take this time to buff myself, use my added DPH to use Smack on an archer or ranged DD. Turn in the flag.

    And this isn't a rare occurance, I've doen it quite a few times. Granted it hardly works when you have no veno to support, but it works mighty well when it does.

    As for your PvE argument, you're absolutely right. Demon is indeed better.
    You're an idiot. I'll wait for someone competent to reply.
    All the control skills and debuffs you're attempting to flaunt require chi. Without chi a BM is completely useless.

    Yes melee classes do generally have a couple mid range attacks, none can spam them.

    Also, I'm a 5.0 base sage bm. Eat your heart out.

    Next time you call someone an idiot be sure to provide a valid argument why the person is being such an idiot.

    The chi handling for BMs is the same at sage and demon. Apoth, genie, and the occasion sage tiger maw or demon drake sweep. Every 1 minute we get 50 chi, which is pretty lousy of a rate considering how much chi we can burn in 1 minute. It's only good when either out of combat, or fully dried of chi and need to use that stun.

    5.0 base sage BM? Eat my heart? Excuse me as I cry at the lack of dignity you have. Sage fist skills are a joke and auto-attacking never accomplished anything in PvP. Since in PvE demon spark + BP allows for more defense on base gear value while having the same speed as 5.0 base, then demon becomes more valid for APS. In an argument of sage being superior to demon, sage aps should never be brought into the equasion. THat's what makes us look bad.

    Now... @Dan

    Sage Ocean's Edge: I can see your point. For me the skill is always on cooldown in most group situations. It seems to proc more than 1/5 of the time most days. I guess it's just a matter of style. I prefer it ofer Reckless Rush due to no chi cost, but whirrelwind is a valid point. Although, I don't have that on my dex genie (waiting to get an 81+ LP genie before I deck it out like that) so Edge is a good temporary fix for me.

    Sage marrows: I'm from Raging Tides. We don't have good archers, so I wouldn't know much of that.

    On Fissure: I see your point, though it comes in handy when their genie is on cooldown. Or this could force their genie onto cooldown so they can't AD when they need it. But either one would do that, sage or demon. Valid point is valid.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Valid point.




    If I have a leftover crit proc from Highland Cleave and someone is a touch out of melee range I've been known to use ray, but never in a seriously difficult sutuation. It oneshots a few casters in NW, that's about it. I won't be using it on other BMs though...Lol


    Put it this way. So, I have the flag, anti stun and apoc is on cooldown. I do, however, have chi on account of my sage veno partner. I just got purged and stunned...Wellp, time to spam click sage spark. Reduce damage taken plus the immunity to set off their stun times. Take this time to buff myself, use my added DPH to use Smack on an archer or ranged DD. Turn in the flag.

    And this isn't a rare occurance, I've doen it quite a few times. Granted it hardly works when you have no veno to support, but it works mighty well when it does.

    As for your PvE argument, you're absolutely right. Demon is indeed better.



    Next time you call someone an idiot be sure to provide a valid argument why the person is being such an idiot.

    The chi handling for BMs is the same at sage and demon. Apoth, genie, and the occasion sage tiger maw or demon drake sweep. Every 1 minute we get 50 chi, which is pretty lousy of a rate considering how much chi we can burn in 1 minute. It's only good when either out of combat, or fully dried of chi and need to use that stun.

    5.0 base sage BM? Eat my heart? Excuse me as I cry at the lack of dignity you have. Sage fist skills are a joke and auto-attacking never accomplished anything in PvP. Since in PvE demon spark + BP allows for more defense on base gear value while having the same speed as 5.0 base, then demon becomes more valid for APS. In an argument of sage being superior to demon, sage aps should never be brought into the equasion. THat's what makes us look bad.

    Now... @Dan

    Sage Ocean's Edge: I can see your point. For me the skill is always on cooldown in most group situations. It seems to proc more than 1/5 of the time most days. I guess it's just a matter of style. I prefer it ofer Reckless Rush due to no chi cost, but whirrelwind is a valid point. Although, I don't have that on my dex genie (waiting to get an 81+ LP genie before I deck it out like that) so Edge is a good temporary fix for me.

    Sage marrows: I'm from Raging Tides. We don't have good archers, so I wouldn't know much of that.

    On Fissure: I see your point, though it comes in handy when their genie is on cooldown. Or this could force their genie onto cooldown so they can't AD when they need it. But either one would do that, sage or demon. Valid point is valid.

    I only use aps gear in pve. I said it to invalidate his argument on demon spark.

    Sage tiger maw is stupid. In the same amount of time i could switch to level 1 npc fists and gain chi that way. Why don't you go read my actual arguments.

    The difference in chi gain and consumption between demon and sage is huge.

    You're strange arguments in particular situations like digging a flag with a friendly veno present are completely meaningless.

    Let's say you have full chi as a demon and you pick a single target, drakes bash, heavens flame, use a couple skills then roar. You have like maybe 1 spark now. Potentially i still have 2.75
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I only use aps gear in pve. I said it to invalidate his argument on demon spark.

    Sage tiger maw is stupid. In the same amount of time i could switch to level 1 npc fists and gain chi that way. Why don't you go read my actual arguments.

    The difference in chi gain and consumption between demon and sage is huge.

    You're strange arguments in particular situations like digging a flag with a friendly veno present are completely meaningless.

    Let's say you have full chi as a demon and you pick a single target, drakes bash, heavens flame, use a couple skills then roar. You have like maybe 1 spark now. Potentially i still have 2.75

    Did I not say myself that sage tiger maw kinda sucks?

    The situation with the veno still works without a friendly veno, it's simply harder to apply due to needing that chi to sue other skills.

    A BM picking a single target? We're crowd controllers. One person is not a crowd. Communicate that with your sin. A 1v1 situation, doesn't matter how much chi you havem they are dead in which case demon HF wins.

    Bro, do you even lift?
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.