why pdef sux

deadwieght
deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
edited April 2013 in Archer
for an archer, a g14 cube necklace is a waste. using my toon as a base for all calculations here is why.

base pdef (no neck) - 4785 equates to 54% damage reduction vs lvl 102
pdef with g14 +12 cube neck ~ 6800 equates to 64% damage reduction vs 102 (this includes the +1 def lvl)

10 phys atks at 100 damage each your gained damage reduction = 100 damage for the 10 hits

so now u have payed 70 million coins for the necklace to gain 10% damage reduction. assuming the refines are all free.

there are many other options for a fraction of the price. here is one example

base evasion with sage wings of protection ~ 5700 equates to 32% vs 6000 accuracy
evasion with +12 drakeshadow amulet with sage wings of protection ~ 6800 equates to 38% vs 6000 accuracy

10 phys attacks at 100 damage each you have gained a damage reduction of 60

now you have payed 2 million for a 6% damage reduction assuming all refines are free.

40% difference in phys def is alot yes but u have have saved 68 million in the process and also gained magic defence. the magic defence on the drakeshadow is more than 2x the amount the 1 def lvl from the cube neck gives. even multiplying those numbers by 300% to take an actual phys hit there change is 300 damage reduction vs 180 damage reduction. if 120 hps is worth 68 million then d.orbs and citrines are WAY under priced.

this is just one example, there are several others. also if you wanted to shard with flawless ambers the drakeshadow added damage reduction would end up being 9% gained and you would still have saved atleast 65 million coins and gained m.def.
Post edited by deadwieght on
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Comments

  • Rhyme - Harshlands
    Rhyme - Harshlands Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Please be a troll.

    Your whole analysis of evasion is thrown out the window with one fact; magic never misses.
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lol. This guy actually plays my server. Sighb:sweat
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Also marginal changes in percent damage reduction is a bad way to judge effectiveness. 90% reduction is double the survival of 80% reduction.
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    it was one example of an alternate necklace. an OHT neck with pdef on it is also 7% damage reduction and those are free. i just dont understand why ppl pay 70 mil for 100 hps. would any of you buy a +4 d. orb for 70 million?
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    If you are not a troll, then from now on just believe what other people tell you in live. Dont make your own analysis calculations or reasoning. just believe other people. You will be more succesfull in live that way.
  • Rhyme - Harshlands
    Rhyme - Harshlands Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    it was one example of an alternate necklace. an OHT neck with pdef on it is also 7% damage reduction and those are free. i just dont understand why ppl pay 70 mil for 100 hps. would any of you buy a +4 d. orb for 70 million?

    I don't know where you get this 100hp number from because nothing on the cube necklace gives that little of a bonus. Nowadays everyone can easily get over 10k HP as an archer so the 5% hp bonus is giving anywhere from 500-1000 HP which is huge. And then there is a 150hp bonus on top of that. HP is something an archer desperately needs since they are blessed with the worst armor in the game. Mid Refines+Mid Defences just makes you squishy to all classes. Another problem is the low variety in +5% HP Necklaces. You can get a skydemon's pearl, HH90gold, CV neck, or cube neck. SDP and HH90 are obsolete now so your choices are pretty much CV or Cube Neck. CV neck can cost 20m-30m+ of mats or you can do the cube for 30days and NW once or twice for the best necklace in the game. The choice is pretty obvious.

    I could understand arguing MDef neck or Pdef neck but to say +1 A/D level 650+hp and the best refinement rate is horrible compared to evasion neck with +10%evasion and +80hp/mp is just...

    Please just pretend your trolling.
  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    for an archer, a g14 cube necklace is a waste. using my toon as a base for all calculations here is why.

    base pdef (no neck) - 4785 equates to 54% damage reduction vs lvl 102
    pdef with g14 +12 cube neck ~ 6800 equates to 64% damage reduction vs 102 (this includes the +1 def lvl)

    10 phys atks at 100 damage each your gained damage reduction = 100 damage for the 10 hits

    so now u have payed 70 million coins for the necklace to gain 10% damage reduction. assuming the refines are all free.

    there are many other options for a fraction of the price. here is one example

    base evasion with sage wings of protection ~ 5700 equates to 32% vs 6000 accuracy
    evasion with +12 drakeshadow amulet with sage wings of protection ~ 6800 equates to 38% vs 6000 accuracy

    10 phys attacks at 100 damage each you have gained a damage reduction of 60

    now you have payed 2 million for a 6% damage reduction assuming all refines are free.

    40% difference in phys def is alot yes but u have have saved 68 million in the process and also gained magic defence. the magic defence on the drakeshadow is more than 2x the amount the 1 def lvl from the cube neck gives. even multiplying those numbers by 300% to take an actual phys hit there change is 300 damage reduction vs 180 damage reduction. if 120 hps is worth 68 million then d.orbs and citrines are WAY under priced.

    this is just one example, there are several others. also if you wanted to shard with flawless ambers the drakeshadow added damage reduction would end up being 9% gained and you would still have saved atleast 65 million coins and gained m.def.

    Your calculations are misleading...

    Let say an enemy has a basic 10,000 p-attack with 6000 accuracy.

    Case 1: Without any necklace (54% damage reduction, 32% evasion)
    The average on you is: 10,000 * (1-0.54)*(1-0.32) = 3128

    Case 2: With a cube necklace (64% damage reduction, 32% evasion)
    The average hit on you is: 10,000 *(1-0.64)*(1-0.32) = 2448 (22% less than in case 1)

    Case 3: With a drakeshadow (54% damange reduction, 38% evasion).
    The average hit on you is: 10,000 *(1-0.54)*(1-0.38) = 2854 (9% less than in case 1)
    Note:
    1. the cube necklace gives +5% HP bonus (That alone gives a significant edge over any other necklaces)
    2. The are many physical skills that you can never evade.. plume shots, several barbs skills, blade tempest, smacks, etc...
    3. Even if p-def and evasion were to be on par, p-def gives 100% consistency (i.e every p-attack will have its damage reduced), evasion relies a lot on luck
    4. If you are trying to sell any kind of evasion-based builds..... *cough cough* nvm.. there is nothing much valuable that can be said about it. There are always better options.... b:pleased
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  • Heartz - Dreamweaver
    Heartz - Dreamweaver Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'm ashamed to be in this guys faction. he even posted it on faction forum.. sigh..

    I've always refrained from calling him out, i respect his choice wanting to have a special/unique build. But damn this time I actually think he has been smoking something - well I HOPE, cos if not I would gladly give him a sign above his head " Hello world, I'm noob" -- above faction/wedding title...

    *bucket of ice cold water in his face*
    105 - 105 - 105 (14th march 2014)

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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Case 3: With a drakeshadow (54% damange reduction, 38% evasion).
    The average hit on you is: 10,000 *(1-0.54)*(1-0.38) = 2854 (9% less than in case 1)

    Maybe he likes to fight alone... and wants the extra evasion to stack with his evasion buff and of course the super evasion buff.
    Heartz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I'm ashamed to be in this guys faction. he even posted it on faction forum.. sigh..

    And the name deadweight wasn't a give away?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
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  • Heartz - Dreamweaver
    Heartz - Dreamweaver Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

    And the name deadweight wasn't a give away?

    Now you mention it b:laugh
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This isn't the first time he's posted the supremacy of evasion either. I'd find the thread but I just can't be bothered.
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    omg i said it was ONE EXAMPLE!! the OHT necklace is another EXAMPLE. what im saying and have said over and over again (that apperently nobody is reading) is that spending 70 million on a G14 cube necklace as an archer is a waste of coins. ill use another example without evasion just to make u all happy next time.

    i personally use evasion because i like it so i had the stats already written down, i can do the math on any other necklace and the result is the same. 70 million coins for that neck is a waste for an archer.
  • Hannsel - Dreamweaver
    Hannsel - Dreamweaver Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    evasion is ineffective vs 5 classes as arcanes NEVER miss. if u wanna get gear that only works against 1/2 the opponents go ahead.

    so this is why dreamweaver is looked down upon by the PK population b:surrender
  • Heartz - Dreamweaver
    Heartz - Dreamweaver Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    70 million coins for that neck is a waste for an archer.

    Just as wasted as oxygen for some people.
    105 - 105 - 105 (14th march 2014)

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  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    So surely one would go magic defense on a necklace if pdef is so useless?
    You gonna make a thread about how mdef is not as good as evasion too?
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  • Facerolled - Raging Tide
    Facerolled - Raging Tide Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    PWI racist against archers not making cube evasion neck to benefit our squad buff
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  • kenpachikensai
    kenpachikensai Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    http://pwcalc.com/34cf61ba6f81845c ijs...
  • Heartz - Dreamweaver
    Heartz - Dreamweaver Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    kenpachikensai wrote: »
    http://pwcalc.com/34cf61ba6f81845c ijs...

    Imagine if it get hit. boom 15k+ dmg lol.
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  • LastDance - Dreamweaver
    LastDance - Dreamweaver Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    for an archer, a g14 cube necklace is a waste. using my toon as a base for all calculations here is why.

    base pdef (no neck) - 4785 equates to 54% damage reduction vs lvl 102
    pdef with g14 +12 cube neck ~ 6800 equates to 64% damage reduction vs 102 (this includes the +1 def lvl)

    10 phys atks at 100 damage each your gained damage reduction = 100 damage for the 10 hits

    so now u have payed 70 million coins for the necklace to gain 10% damage reduction. assuming the refines are all free.

    there are many other options for a fraction of the price. here is one example

    base evasion with sage wings of protection ~ 5700 equates to 32% vs 6000 accuracy
    evasion with +12 drakeshadow amulet with sage wings of protection ~ 6800 equates to 38% vs 6000 accuracy

    10 phys attacks at 100 damage each you have gained a damage reduction of 60

    now you have payed 2 million for a 6% damage reduction assuming all refines are free.

    40% difference in phys def is alot yes but u have have saved 68 million in the process and also gained magic defence. the magic defence on the drakeshadow is more than 2x the amount the 1 def lvl from the cube neck gives. even multiplying those numbers by 300% to take an actual phys hit there change is 300 damage reduction vs 180 damage reduction. if 120 hps is worth 68 million then d.orbs and citrines are WAY under priced.

    this is just one example, there are several others. also if you wanted to shard with flawless ambers the drakeshadow added damage reduction would end up being 9% gained and you would still have saved atleast 65 million coins and gained m.def.



    as an archer u could fight complete naked.. archers are determined to fight in their maxed range, with much crit and atk
    u shouldnt get hit while grinding... otherwise ure doin somethin wrong with ur classb:surrender
  • kenpachikensai
    kenpachikensai Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Heartz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Imagine if it get hit. boom 15k+ dmg lol.

    it's okay though. at least it'll be enjoyable to count the misses while you die from aps.
  • skaitavia
    skaitavia Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    @Deadweight Then what would people do with their coin for their character if they have over 3-4b?

    What you should know is that certain gears are better than others, and sometimes that small bonus is worth it. You also have people that are perfectionists as well.

    For example, why shard Drakeflames in weapons instead of just Garnet Gems when the price difference is 600% while the gain in P attack is only 25%? Because Drakeflames are better. Not by much maybe, but it's still noticeable as well as being better.

    Why pay 70m for a cube necklace instead of getting something else like a Necklace of Giant Strength? Both give similar bonuses right? Well it's because the cube necklace is better. Not by much? So? It's still better. Once you get that mindset through your head, then you'll understand.

    Just my two cents.
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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Derp wrong quote

    At least we won't be oneshot by

    Wizards venos psys clerics mystics sins (ever heard of rds?) Bms (smack) archers (demon lightning strike) barbs (any of their no miss attacks)
    Also fairly sure seeker edged blur doesn't miss either

    Hell is there a class that can't oneshot you?
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  • Nenor - Dreamweaver
    Nenor - Dreamweaver Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You can more easily justify the cost if you take into consideration the fact you can stash it over to any of the other toons on the same account (or just trade it to one on a diff account if you didn't bind it). I don't have the cube neck simply b/c i've been cubing for xp. Mine are all currently sharing *Springrush Amulet: Chaos*, which isn't to expensive provided you farm most of the mats. If you were going to chip/buy the mats, you'd be better off just buying the cube.
  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    i understand all of what u are saying. yes a cube necklace is better than anything available. my post is for conservation of coin and that u could spend the money otherwise in better areas. gotcha
  • kenpachikensai
    kenpachikensai Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    i understand all of what u are saying. yes a cube necklace is better than anything available. my post is for conservation of coin and that u could spend the money otherwise in better areas. gotcha

    I understand what you're saying in trying to save money. For example, I am going to save myself 20m by using my Guard of Thundershock instead of using Warsong Inscriptions to make the Warsong Belt for my averagely geared Psychic.

    But as someone stated before, most are willing to go for broke in order to have the best gear available to them.
  • Valirah - Sanctuary
    Valirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    deadwieght wrote: »
    i understand all of what u are saying. yes a cube necklace is better than anything available. my post is for conservation of coin and that u could spend the money otherwise in better areas. gotcha

    Your argument is ridiculous. You site examples that have been refined to +12, yet your point is frugality? The refines are the major cost concern, not the base item. Why spend good coin refining a ****?
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    kenpachikensai wrote: »
    http://pwcalc.com/34cf61ba6f81845c ijs...

    Barbs dont have 1 but 2 100% accuracy skills(One in both forms), 3 if you are demon like mine(+1 in human). Actually we got another 100% accuracy skill as chrono page skill(Tiger), hits like effing truck too with 18m range, 1min cd though. But I wouldnt count on every single barb having that skill.

    "Within the range of 18 meters, let out a violent strike that
    deals 200% of base damage to the target, immobilizing them
    for 8 seconds. 100 percent accuracy."

    R9 barbs can be counted on having that chrono page skill and honestly, R9 demon barb with 4 100% accuracy skills can just troll, WC flame, fool around and still kill that archer build. If you want to burn money and be easy kill for R9+ barb, I really cant think of a build which would give you better conditions for it. Heck, combining it with spark and there is a good chance it will 1shot the archer, as long as gear is somewhat similar.
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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Congrats

    you just put $20+K into a build with pdef equivalent to a TT90 with +3/5 pdef orns

    now enjoy being oneshot by wizards anyways

    now enjoy 3rd cast BMs hitting you for 15K with smack

    oh and did I mention I get 24K evasion from condor yet get hit through it all the time by r9+ archers/sins autoattacking?

    OH AND YOU'RE GOING TO SAVE MONEY BY GOING FULL R9T3 +12 WITH A 2nd CAST NW TOME? And completely disregard 30 ATK level bonus from R9T3 belt?

    rofl

    please don't do this and take away valuable ambers from non-aps barbs who need it for their weapons

    EDIT: and of course you completely guard yourself against 1/2 of the classes in the game and leave your undefended, 43 def level (less if using jones) backside open to be ****ed by the other half

    Going for the TT99 belt also makes you lose out on a whooping 30 atk levels on that build

    coupled with the fact that it will cost $20K+

    save money my ***
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    5 classes? if ur getting killed consistantly by venos, clerics and mystics than you just suck as an archer. yes i have died to all three classes but it is not a normal occasion. wizzies, psys are the only two magic classes an archer should ever worry about and psys unless they are r9rr +10 or better are not usually a problem.

    as for 100% accuracy skills, i cant think of any from a normal type player that would kill a smart archer either. barbs have a few but if a barb gets that close to an archer than maybe u should try another class.

    yes there are builds that make my statement untrue but not many ppl have those builds.

    in my short poll of what kills archers, the response i get is other archers and sins. both phys attack classes that dont have many 100% accuracy skills, certainly none that kill in one shot. the metal combo is not 100% accuracy.

    so if ur getting killed by wizzies, sins and archers how do you protect from that? besides jades a r9rr wizzie is still gonna 1-2 shot u with the fire combo. so that leaves sins and archers.....stun lock from a sin or archer, hp isnt gonna help you unless ur 20k. yup evasion is completely dumb against phys classes
  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited March 2013
    This is....

    just.....

    I don't even know where to begin. *facepalm*




    You do realize if even half of what you said were true outside of paper PvP, we'd actually have players who shard evasion instead of.... laughing and 1-shotting the guy using evasion stuff and leaving their defenses so poor as a result that any 100% accuracy skill or magic can 1-shot them. The archer in that calc is a 1-shot for EVERY caster in similar gear. One crit and tht's it, assuming they don't feel lazy and just spark or debuff you first.

    As for phys classes? They all tend to have at least one 100% accuracy skill. And while they all can hit through that evasion if they have a decent amount of dex, they won't need to since 100% accuracy skill plus your lack of pdef/mdef/defense levels = target practice.
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