Remove added glitches, please.

2

Comments

  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Oops sorry Miugre. I actually meant to quote Decus there. b:surrender

    But yep. Especially since it was obviously glitchy. I mean, sure, bring it back, but let us cancel stuff like BIDS and HF? :D

    CC did not apply damage or debuffs, by canclign a skill that gave a buff before completion you recieved the buff without wasting time/sparks

    Heres an idea

    Read the OP

    Then comment

    I can actually TASTE your ignorance in my mouth (flat warm beer with a side of chickenwaffles)
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    CC did not apply damage or debuffs, by canclign a skill that gave a buff before completion you recieved the buff without wasting time/sparks

    Heres an idea

    Read the OP

    Then comment

    I can actually TASTE your ignorance in my mouth (flat warm beer with a side of chickenwaffles)
    Yes, you got the buff without actually casting the skill that was designed to trigger the proc. This is a glitch and it was fixed. Welcome to the facts we've established three pages ago.

    What exactly is your point, here? Or are you just spewing hate because you're bored? :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Seriously I could bottle the mix of loathing, pity, and pure good humor that I feel atm and sell it as an aphrodisiac

    I will buy it b:victory.

    I came to the game after cc was fixed, so never knew what cc was all about. That being said, now imagine all those op casters with their purify weapons, there is no easy way to kill them as a melee class (barring op seekers, barb who can get lucky on their skills). Archers have range, so that helps them close the distance. Sins and bm get shafted on those classes. I just blade hurl them, and walk away, since there is nothing i can do to kill them except waste my own time and charm. But this thread is about purify monsters :D, we have that thread on the bm forum.

    I am not sure how often people see their hits. In coa i often get misses 2~8 times in a row on each spark cycle, multiple times. I put on 2 accuracy rings to reduce the misses, but it doesn't help. It could be my bad luck for the past 4~6 months each week.
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Why is there no public outcry against the Barrage glitch that has seen use longer than just about any other glitch in this game? The main point against CC seems to be "learn to play your class", or "it was a glitch that never was supposed to happen". Which interestingly enough, is perfectly applicable to the Barrage glitch as well. It should end after a duel ends, it should not be allowed to target invisible spots that require using the 'next target' feature that was added later in the game, and should not be allowed for many of the abuses the apparently no-skilled archers used as they were leveling up.

    Same thing goes for many of the other class mechanics that are abused in ways that they were obviously not intended for. I see lots of rage against only the glitches that the fix wouldn't impact the posters class, but not one person ran with another glitch so common everyone knows about. Is there any way that it is not hypocritical?
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    CC did not apply damage or debuffs, by canclign a skill that gave a buff before completion you recieved the buff without wasting time/sparks

    There was still huge potential for exploit by other classes with self buffs from channel cancelling however. The main reason they fixed CC in the first place IIRC was because Sins were using it to abuse power dash out of stealth (buff that increases their crit by 40%... no sparks used and no cool down). Back then with an already broken class, that HAD to be fixed.

    They were other classes that could have attained God Mode with CC too. I've seen early youtube videos of Seekers CCing void step... basically gaining an infinite 38m teleport... since CCing simply removed the stun component (plus spark usage and cool down) while keeping the teleport.

    While I agree the benefits of CCing on BMs weren't as drastic and game breaking as the two examples above... the developers simply weren't willing to make "exceptions" when programming the fix and understandably so.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    There was still huge potential for exploit by other classes with self buffs from channel cancelling however. The main reason they fixed CC in the first place IIRC was because Sins were using it to abuse power dash out of stealth (buff that increases their crit by 40%... no sparks used and no cool down). Back then with an already broken class, that HAD to be fixed.

    They were other classes that could have attained God Mode with CC too. I've seen early youtube videos of Seekers CCing void step... basically gaining an infinite 38m teleport... since CCing simply removed the stun component (plus spark usage and cool down) while keeping the teleport.

    While I agree the benefits of CCing on BMs weren't as drastic and game breaking as the two examples above... the developers simply weren't willing to make "exceptions" when programming the fix and understandably so.

    Meh they removed it in a ninja patch and never gave a reason if I remember correctly. The "sins to op mang" logic never really made sense to me. OP before CC removal>more OP by comparison to others after CC removal.

    Sins could also do the teleport bug btw
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  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Meh they removed it in a ninja patch and never gave a reason if I remember correctly. The "sins to op mang" logic never really made sense to me. OP before CC removal>more OP by comparison to BMs whose own dps took a dive after CC removal. All other classes could give a ****.

    Fixed.

    Anyway... this is all water under the ancient bridge. In this current "more pay to win than ever before" PWI environment, nobody gives a rat's hinney about aps Sins/BMs in PK anymore... CC or no CC. TT99/R8 gear needed to keep aps is obsolete and translates into nothing more than getting one-two shotted by all those R9/Nirv G16s out there. It's now either build for DPH or GTFO.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Fixed.

    Anyway... this is all water under the ancient bridge. In this current "more pay to win than ever before" PWI environment, nobody gives a rat's hinney about aps Sins/BMs in PK anymore. TT99/R8 gear needed to keep aps translates into a one-two shot vs all those R9/Nirv G16s out there. It's now either build for DPH or GTFO.

    You need tt99/r8 for 5 aps?

    news to me
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You need tt99/r8 for 5 aps?

    news to me

    Eh... good luck rolling x2 int. on your R8 recast boots then. Doesn't change my fundamental point any. Gear needed to gain interval is squishy. In fact has always been squishy but now all it takes is for an R9 third cast to glance in your direction and gg.
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Meh they removed it in a ninja patch and never gave a reason if I remember correctly. The "sins to op mang" logic never really made sense to me. OP before CC removal>more OP by comparison to others after CC removal.

    Sins could also do the teleport bug btw
    The irony, of course, being that sins wouldn't be OP without aps. >_>

    Either way, CC needed to be fixed. You can QQ all you want about sins and class balance, but that should've been going on independently of any debate about CC. At the end of the day, CC is still a glitch that people exploited a lot. Once it was fixed, you were still free to debate about how OP sins, casters, anyone other than you, etc. were. So did you? Or are you only bringing it up now because we're talking about something that used to benefit you?

    Seriously, I'm really asking... because I don't keep tabs on who makes what threads and I'm far too lazy to do an exhaustive search on what you've QQ'd about lately. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The irony, of course, being that sins wouldn't be OP without aps. >_>

    Lol, sins aren't OP because of aps. In fact, if aps made a char OP then aps clerics would be pretty OP, right? Its generally good advice that sins not use their aps gear in pk. Anyone worth killing will hit back and be charmed, and you'll want higher defenses than aps gear can provide and more dph to bipass their charm.



    Here's the reason I call it an added glitch:

    Many skills debuff and then hit, like Devour, Wield Thunder, or sage Fissure. That was how things worked was the status effect preceded the attack. That still exists because that is in the game coding.

    What they changed was certain skills now do it backwards, where it casts then the status effect is applied. They did this uniformly to all self applied buffs to prevent CCing. So just a few of our skills have the cast and channel effects backwards, in other words they added a glitch to prevent us from using the skills as they were originally programmed.

    I understand the reasons they did it, but it still changed game dynamics and was only applied to break a few skills. As people have said in this thread about both the aps nerf and CCing "it doesn't make a huge difference and the only reason PWI did it was to stop the endless QQ." If it doesn't make a difference why not remove the nerfs and the backward casting that was added?

    Well, we've given it about 2 years, as long as we had CC around. There was a huge outcry when they reversed how our skills worked and removed CC and it went on in the forums for about a month. Some people even left the game when changed it. Then people forgot about it. Now there is such a disparity between gear and a larger variety of class skills that CCing being brought back seems practical so I brought it up again. Those skilled enough to master the timing and knowledgeable enough to understand how their skills work will get a boost from it, and like before 95% of the game wont even know it existed.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Lol, sins aren't OP because of aps. In fact, if aps made a char OP then aps clerics would be pretty OP, right? Its generally good advice that sins not use their aps gear in pk. Anyone worth killing will hit back and be charmed, and you'll want higher defenses than aps gear can provide and more dph to bipass their charm.



    Here's the reason I call it an added glitch:

    Many skills debuff and then hit, like Devour, Wield Thunder, or sage Fissure. That was how things worked was the status effect preceded the attack. That still exists because that is in the game coding.

    What they changed was certain skills now do it backwards, where it casts then the status effect is applied. They did this uniformly to all self applied buffs to prevent CCing. So just a few of our skills have the cast and channel effects backwards, in other words they added a glitch to prevent us from using the skills as they were originally programmed.

    I understand the reasons they did it, but it still changed game dynamics and was only applied to break a few skills. As people have said in this thread about both the aps nerf and CCing "it doesn't make a huge difference and the only reason PWI did it was to stop the endless QQ." If it doesn't make a difference why not remove the nerfs and the backward casting that was added?

    Well, we've given it about 2 years, as long as we had CC around. There was a huge outcry when they reversed how our skills worked and removed CC and it went on in the forums for about a month. Some people even left the game when changed it. Then people forgot about it. Now there is such a disparity between gear and a larger variety of class skills that CCing being brought back seems practical so I brought it up again. Those skilled enough to master the timing and knowledgeable enough to understand how their skills work will get a boost from it, and like before 95% of the game wont even know it existed.

    Got bored and tested, I can still time triple cancels easy >.<

    sakuuuu I want my 100% crit 135% fire and 5 aps perma buff again QQ.

    On topic

    I wouldn't mind the intentional bugging of skill casts by this branch of PW if I didnt need to pay 2 sparks and waste 3 seconds to get a fire damage buff. I'll admit that a 30 sec CD .6 sec cast skill that gives 135% fire for 15 secs or 100% crit for 5 is OP. but this could have been addressed by making the skills good enough to actually cast instead of lowering a classes available move pool
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  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I miss CC Demon Onslaught/DBB - the latter's pretty much useless now...
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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I miss CC Demon Onslaught/DBB - the latter's pretty much useless now...

    Skai and Euth Its for you :D

    or... **** Star or My Little Pony game!
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I miss CC Demon Onslaught/DBB - the latter's pretty much useless now...

    its really is not strong enough to take sparks or 3+ seconds to cast
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  • SylenThunder - Twilight Temple
    SylenThunder - Twilight Temple Supprot Guru Posts: 7,908
    edited February 2013
    How does bringing back something that people abused seem practical?

    Yes, the way they fixed it wasn't ideal, but it was likely the best they could do.

    It's a lot easier to change the effect of a spell than to make it so that certain spells cannot be interrupted. (Especially since the latter would have a larger impact in other areas of the game.)

    It's not an added glitch, it's a fix for cheating goobs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    How does bringing back something that people abused seem practical?

    I abuse demon HF every time I use it by getting a 100% amp on my enemies. That's how the skill is designed.

    I abused Cyclone Heel every time I CC'd it by getting the buff as I channeled it. That's how the skill was designed.

    No more using skills in PWI. It's abuse.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    How does bringing back something that people abused seem practical?

    Yes, the way they fixed it wasn't ideal, but it was likely the best they could do.

    It's a lot easier to change the effect of a spell than to make it so that certain spells cannot be interrupted. (Especially since the latter would have a larger impact in other areas of the game.)

    It's not an added glitch, it's a fix for cheating goobs.

    *looks at the entire pwi comunity abusing exploits in simple BH's"

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    removed
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  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited February 2013

    And this is for you~
    Looks like the second one got censored, but Ive seen that before too :3

    I still dont agree with calling CCing cheating since its something that could be used by pretty much everyone (to varying extents) and can even prove to be difficult to do consistently, requiring lots of practice with it. It actually reminds me of another "exploit in game physics which ended up being used often in high-level play" in another game.

    If this ability still existed in CN, its just one of the things I'd have hoped to "slip" back into our version through an expansion or something, but I guess that wont be happening...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Remember: OP may be a duck|OP/GMs/Devs may not deliver|Search function is your friend|Lurk more|Be wary of Mods: they can't be trusted|This place isn't a hugbox|Your tears sustain me|Know what Bait is|"Soon" may never come|Postcount, Dubs, and other GETs are important|Don't revive long dead threads|There is a section for everything|You can be banned for anything|No Fun Allowed outside of OT|Sweetiebot rules OT|"Circlejerks" are inevitable|Threads can be derailed and saved|Those who use"XD" should off themselves at their earliest convenience|
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    And this is for you~
    Looks like the second one got censored, but Ive seen that before too :3

    I still dont agree with calling CCing cheating since its something that could be used by pretty much everyone (to varying extents) and can even prove to be difficult to do consistently, requiring lots of practice with it. It actually reminds me of another "exploit in game physics which ended up being used often in high-level play" in another game.

    If this ability still existed in CN, its just one of the things I'd have hoped to "slip" back into our version through an expansion or something, but I guess that wont be happening...

    Its a straight up exploit but it didnt really break the game, bm's are bloody weak as **** in pvp
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I abuse demon HF every time I use it by getting a 100% amp on my enemies. That's how the skill is designed.

    I abused Cyclone Heel every time I CC'd it by getting the buff as I channeled it. That's how the skill was designed.

    No more using skills in PWI. It's abuse.
    If a skill is designed to take 2 seconds to cast, it takes 2 seconds to cast. Any benefit given by that skill requires those 2 seconds because that's how it was designed. What part of this is hard to understand?

    And why would people ever finish casting HF if it were supposed to give its benefit without being cast? Do you think people want to blow two sparks just to see the pwetty dragons? XD
    Here's the reason I call it an added glitch:

    Many skills debuff and then hit, like Devour, Wield Thunder, or sage Fissure. That was how things worked was the status effect preceded the attack. That still exists because that is in the game coding.

    What they changed was certain skills now do it backwards, where it casts then the status effect is applied. They did this uniformly to all self applied buffs to prevent CCing. So just a few of our skills have the cast and channel effects backwards, in other words they added a glitch to prevent us from using the skills as they were originally programmed.
    Programming =/= design.

    If I designed a program... let's say a web browser... and I was careless enough to leave a major exploit in it that left your (or others') computer open to attack, would the point of that program be to be used in attacks? No, it wouldn't. The point of the program was to be a web browser. Just call a spade a spade... don't call it a hammer just because you can whack someone over the head with it.

    CC is an exploit for the same reason APS is an exploit: because they both violate basic game design. Bosses are not supposed to die in five seconds or less. Skills are supposed to be cast to receive their benefit. This is not rocket science. Quit rationalizing.
    Well, we've given it about 2 years, as long as we had CC around. There was a huge outcry when they reversed how our skills worked and removed CC and it went on in the forums for about a month. Some people even left the game when changed it. Then people forgot about it. Now there is such a disparity between gear and a larger variety of class skills that CCing being brought back seems practical so I brought it up again. Those skilled enough to master the timing and knowledgeable enough to understand how their skills work will get a boost from it, and like before 95% of the game wont even know it existed.
    I think you've been around long enough to know that QQing on the forums doesn't entitle you to anything. Even if you did have a valid point (which, sorry, you don't)... far better ideas than yours have fallen on the deaf ears of wanmei or have simply been dismissed as QQ by the playerbase. You need to know when to cut your losses and either accept the game as it is or quit. That's what we've all had to do for all kinds of legitimately bad changes this game has endured over four years.
    abusing exploits in simple BH's
    You wanna elaborate on that?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    And this is for you~

    Learned something new. I didn't know girls liked MLP, too.

    A while ago my wife and I were talking about nerding it up at a comic-con or gamer convention and doing the whole cosplay thing. She's not a nerd or a gamer but indulges my nerdiness and thought the whole cosplay thing was pretty sweet. One evening she called from work and asked "Hey, did you still want to go to a comic convention?"
    Me: Yah, if we can find a decent one close by.
    Her: Well, Brony-Con is coming to Portland soon.
    Me: Hun? Do you know what Brony-Con is?
    Her: Yah, its for guys that like My Little Pony.
    Me: ...Do you think I like My Little Pony?
    Her: I kind of thought so.
    Me: ... *facepalm*


    Anyhoo.... That was a good example of a comparable situation from another game. I'm sure it has people arguing skill, exploit, or cheat? Its a pretty fine line sometimes, and the only thing that really pushed pwi to do anything about it was mass QQ over sins being able to use their attack skills for buffs and remain stealthed.

    I do like your point that everyone has the same opportunity and option to use it. Its only exploiting if some people have it and others don't.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Lol, sins aren't OP because of aps. In fact, if aps made a char OP then aps clerics would be pretty OP, right? Its generally good advice that sins not use their aps gear in pk. Anyone worth killing will hit back and be charmed, and you'll want higher defenses than aps gear can provide and more dph to bipass their charm.

    Ain't that the flipping truth. Last time I did NWs... which was a while ago as I've basically quit the game... a full (as in full set, not the typical weapon + ring + aps gear ****) R9 3rd cast Sin zerk crit my R9 Seeker for 19K... basically one shotting me. It was like my 81 defense levels didn't exist... I couldn't believe it LOL.

    No way could they have done that to a HA R9 class without the attack levels and bonuses from full set. Granted... I could still sac. slash zerk crit him for more than double that damage but Sins will always get the first shot off because of stealth/stuns/yada yada.

    Anyway back on topic... to be honest them bringing back CC on BMs would seem to me to mainly benefit PVE... since you're not really gonna kill that R999 +12 JoSD caster with purify weapon using CCing skills from the past. b:surrender
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If a skill is designed to take 2 seconds to cast, it takes 2 seconds to cast. Any benefit given by that skill requires those 2 seconds because that's how it was designed. What part of this is hard to understand?


    You wanna elaborate on that?

    HF does not CC, you are special

    Most CC skills either:

    A: suck so hard they're unusable without it (most of the skills are in this category)
    B: Are staple class skills but the CC boost is minor (aka saving second for 5 more hits on demon BO, or situational spark farming with sage ulti's)

    The only exemptions from the above are Power dash and stun teles

    The game was designed well then new classes were made BADLY

    An exploit is anything in game that can be used in a way not originally intended, wall stalling bosses, veno pulling (Ya that was originally an exploit) shortcuts, stun aggro, etc
    (srsly the list is huge)

    PW has a long history of simply using exploits as features and actively building on them (looking at you zeal) and in other versions the CC exploit is treated as a "feature"
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  • Xainou - Sanctuary
    Xainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I abuse demon HF every time I use it by getting a 100% amp on my enemies. That's how the skill is designed.

    I abused Cyclone Heel every time I CC'd it by getting the buff as I channeled it. That's how the skill was designed.

    No more using skills in PWI. It's abuse.


    Lol, how does that even make sense? The point of 'abusing' is getting the effect without paying the spark/time cost.

    Also, I know a lot of female MLP fans calling themselves bronies. Pegasister just sounds funny to me. b:chuckle
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ain't that the flipping truth. Last time I did NWs... which was a while ago as I've basically quit the game... a full (as in full set, not the typical weapon + ring + aps gear ****) R9 3rd cast Sin zerk crit my R9 Seeker for 19K... basically one shotting me. It was like my 81 defense levels didn't exist... I couldn't believe it LOL.

    No way could they have done that to a HA R9 class without the attack levels and bonuses from full set. Granted... I could still sac. slash zerk crit him for more than double that damage but Sins will always get the first shot off because of stealth/stuns/yada yada.

    Anyway back on topic... to be honest them bringing back CC on BMs would seem to me to mainly benefit PVE... since you're not really gonna kill that R999 +12 JoSD caster with purify weapon using CCing skills from the past. b:surrender

    CC DBB>stun through phys immune

    CC demon GS>axe skill

    even if you soley focus DPH its good

    If you run a hybrid set you get to actually kill other HA's instead of just charm burning.

    CC benifits all classes in pve HEAVILY, its just bm's are gimp HF slaves w/o it
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Lol, how does that even make sense? The point of 'abusing' is getting the effect without paying the spark/time cost.

    Also, I know a lot of female MLP fans calling themselves bronies. Pegasister just sounds funny to me. b:chuckle

    Pretty sure your either a bloody idiot or straight trolling at this point
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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013

    CC is an exploit for the same reason APS is an exploit: because they both violate basic game design. Bosses are not supposed to die in five seconds or less. Skills are supposed to be cast to receive their benefit. [

    Bosses have not kept up with gear. I can 1 shot an fb19 boss. That's not a deviation in game design.

    Simarly, well geared players with highly refined weapons and decent squad work will kill a boss quickly. Also, designed in.
    I'm aware of how aps works, but truth be told it should never have worked that way. Most stats in PWI (and most MMOs) work on either a linear rate of return (such as HP) or a law of decreasing returns (such as pdef/mdef). Aps, by contrast, works on an asymptotic return, which can get extremely broken if you use the right methods (and many people do).

    I ignored this because it's a semantic statement and can be viewed as truthful or false, but now that we're arguing whether using a classes own skills as designed is an exploit or not I'll come back to it. You called hp growth linear and that's both true and false as 1 vit=15 hp will give a linear grow but it also can be view as a diminishing return because you get a smaller percentile increase everytime you add more vit. Adding 10 vit when you have 1000 hp is a 15% increase. Adding 10 vit when you have 10000 hp is a 1.5% increase. Similarly you said pdef and mdef has diminishing returns because it takes more to get 1% more damage reduction each time, but when you have 50% damage reduction and it takes 500 pdef to get 51% that's a 2% boost in defense. When you have 80% reduction and it takes a couple thousand to get to 81% reduction that's a 5% boost to defense.

    Aps can be viewed as linear and asymptotic because the growth is exponential, but the attack rate increase is linear. Technically its not even asymptotic because it's capped well before it hits infinite aps, lol. Yes, aps is capped, otherwise we'd be able to have 20 aps chars.

    My point is its not a glitch or an exploit to use aps. If you setup your gear to attack more often then things die quicker. Attacking more=more damage. If I hit twice instead of once, I do more damage and things die quicker.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    HF does not CC, you are special
    I wasn't the one who brought up HF, that was Saku. You could try actually reading.
    Most CC skills either:

    A: suck so hard they're unusable without it (most of the skills are in this category)
    B: Are staple class skills but the CC boost is minor (aka saving second for 5 more hits on demon BO, or situational spark farming with sage ulti's)
    A: Give me some examples of that then?
    B: If the boosts are so minor then why are you QQing about their loss?
    The game was designed well then new classes were made BADLY
    No argument here...
    An exploit is anything in game that can be used in a way not originally intended, wall stalling bosses, veno pulling (Ya that was originally an exploit) shortcuts, stun aggro, etc
    (srsly the list is huge)

    PW has a long history of simply using exploits as features and actively building on them (looking at you zeal) and in other versions the CC exploit is treated as a "feature"
    So again... if you think PWI is broken in other ways, make a thread about that. Make a thread about how you think Zeal pulling should be fixed so you can't do it anymore. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but it'd be an interesting discussion that I could totally see both sides of.

    That would actually be a debate. This is just "WAAAAAAH I CAN'T GET MY GLITCHED BUFFS ANYMORE QQQQQQ"


    EDIT:
    I ignored this because it's a semantic statement and can be viewed as truthful or false, but now that we're arguing whether using a classes own skills as designed is an exploit or not I'll come back to it. You called hp growth linear and that's both true and false as 1 vit=15 hp will give a linear grow but it also can be view as a diminishing return because you get a smaller percentile increase everytime you add more vit. Adding 10 vit when you have 1000 hp is a 15% increase. Adding 10 vit when you have 10000 hp is a 1.5% increase. Similarly you said pdef and mdef has diminishing returns because it takes more to get 1% more damage reduction each time, but when you have 50% damage reduction and it takes 500 pdef to get 51% that's a 2% boost in defense. When you have 80% reduction and it takes a couple thousand to get to 81% reduction that's a 5% boost to defense.

    Aps can be viewed as linear and asymptotic because the growth is exponential, but the attack rate increase is linear. Technically its not even asymptotic because it's capped well before it hits infinite aps, lol. Yes, aps is capped, otherwise we'd be able to have 20 aps chars.

    My point is its not a glitch or an exploit to use aps. If you setup your gear to attack more often then things die quicker. Attacking more=more damage. If I hit twice instead of once, I do more damage and things die quicker.
    You still have yet to address my point about design, here. It's expected that you can go and nuke a low level boss as an endgame char - that's also part of basic RPG design. It's not expected that you can nuke a high level boss - something that's presumably designed to be a challenge - in roughly the same manner.

    I've already addressed the fact that they capped aps at 5, do I really need to restate that point?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    An exploit is anything in game that can be used in a way not originally intended, wall stalling bosses, veno pulling (Ya that was originally an exploit) shortcuts, stun aggro, etc
    (srsly the list is huge)

    PW has a long history of simply using exploits as features and actively building on them (looking at you zeal) and in other versions the CC exploit is treated as a "feature"

    2-3.5 years ago there were guides in the forums on how to CC. It was taught openly in threads. People may call it a cheat or an exploit now but it was legitimized and the GMs were okay with it. It was even discussed "can we get banned for using this" and the answer was no.

    This was right along the time that people were glitching claws into fox and tiger form and there were discussion of what is a glitch and what is bannable. Claws in trueform was a glitch and bannable. CCing skills was not.

    Spoons described CCing as much as an exploit as pulling using a genie or using safety lock to prevent pk drop. Safety lock is a safety feature to prevent gear from being stolen or removed from your account, not to prevent item drop in pk, but a ton of people find it works well for that and is cheaper than using a GS. That's about the level of CCing.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory