No class is needed

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  • Annalyse - Heavens Tear
    Annalyse - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I will say that when I was a new player it frustrated whenever I ran into people wouldn't just call stuff by it's name. It's confusing. Thankfully on DW most people did call stuff by it's name and so it was less aggravating. PPL on HT dont' though and I do get annoyed by it because it takes me a minute to remember which terms are which, since that's not it's name.

    o.o I though we called everything by name on HT. Which ones are confusing? Unless you mean you guys say the full names and we abbreviate? Admittedly we are too lazy as a server to type out full names. xD

    Of course things like FF/FC have two different and equally correct names. When you port inside, it is called Frostcovered City, but when you look at the map, it is called Forgotten Frostland. I think we tended toward calling it FF because when we said Frostcovered City some people were confusing it with the FB Secret Frostcovered Grounds.
    I don't know where RB come from too I check the name of the instance many times and can't find why RB while as you saw I find something for GV that is related to that version of the game.

    Most people refer to this instance as Rebirth (followed by the appropriate name to indicate its level range, like Delta). Which of course we just shorten to RB because we are lazy.
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    Torchwood (BM) - Sataea (Seeker) - Wystera (Sin) - Allissere (SB)

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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    o.o I though we called everything by name on HT. Which ones are confusing? Unless you mean you guys say the full names and we abbreviate? Admittedly we are too lazy as a server to type out full names. xD

    Of course things like FF/FC have two different and equally correct names. When you port inside, it is called Frostcovered City, but when you look at the map, it is called Forgotten Frostland. I think we tended toward calling it FF because when we said Frostcovered City some people were confusing it with the FB Secret Frostcovered Grounds.

    I don't remember exactly which one, but I know HT call some things different than HL too.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I know you are trolling... but that part in RED for emphasis:

    MYSTICS PLEASE DON'T KNOCK BACK THE @#$% MOBS !!

    I swear... there is NOTHING more annoying in Delta than watching some stupid Mystic knocking mobs out of the aoe DD's range. I mean, why oh God why ? b:sad


    Other than that... I'm cool with Mystics in my squad for Delta or any other instance, really. b:cute

    It doesn't happen. The actual AoE of Dragon's Breath and Vortex are much larger than they appear visually. The seal serves to protect the tank and reduce their repair costs as well as being one of the best damage dealers when stacked with Lucky Break, and or eruption. It can be annoying for some melee but often worth tolerating.

    It makes all AA squads go smooth.
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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    It doesn't happen. The actual AoE of Dragon's Breath and Vortex are much larger than they appear visually. The seal serves to protect the tank and reduce their repair costs as well as being one of the best damage dealers when stacked with Lucky Break, and or eruption. It can be annoying for some melee but often worth tolerating.

    If the BM is enough smart he will stun than DG, cannot speak for all mystics, but in my case spark+lucky break+GF and mobs are one shot.

    The only complain I get in GV as mystic is QQ about people cause I kill the mobs to fast and they are bored cause they don't have time to DD.
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  • Zanryu - Lothranis
    Zanryu - Lothranis Posts: 1,998 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I know you are trolling... but that part in RED for emphasis:

    MYSTICS PLEASE DON'T KNOCK BACK THE @#$% MOBS !!

    I swear... there is NOTHING more annoying in Delta than watching some stupid Mystic knocking mobs out of the aoe DD's range. I mean, why oh God why ? b:sad


    Other than that... I'm cool with Mystics in my squad for Delta or any other instance, really. b:cute

    I'm fine with any class in my groups when doing Delta, but knocking mobs back or sealing them is counter productive, especially when in a group that has something that can tank them without issue. It's very annoying, and this annoyance dates back to the days of FC when barbs would knock mobs back when I'm trying to AoE. Jerkfaces.
    tweakz wrote: »
    It doesn't happen. The actual AoE of Dragon's Breath and Vortex are much larger than they appear visually. The seal serves to protect the tank and reduce their repair costs as well as being one of the best damage dealers when stacked with Lucky Break, and or eruption. It can be annoying for some melee but often worth tolerating.

    It makes all AA squads go smooth.

    If it's an all AA squad then they can seal and knockbock all they want, because if it's all AA that means I'm not in it. I've never had a Mystic I've run with one shot, the only one to come close was ages ago and even then it was never a one shot even when I was HFing. Granted, I haven't run with highly refined and high geared Mystics, but my point remains. The seal is annoying and counter productive to damage if you're with a group of melees. But as I said, if you're in a full arcane squad, go for it, 'cause full Arcanes means a BM isn't there. b:chuckle
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  • Ridelia - Momaganon
    Ridelia - Momaganon Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited January 2013

    MYSTICS PLEASE DON'T KNOCK BACK THE @#$% MOBS !!

    I swear... there is NOTHING more annoying in Delta than watching some stupid Mystic knocking mobs out of the aoe DD's range. I mean, why oh God why ? b:sad

    Thats why I prefer to use "Punishing Sting+Lysing" combo (it hits as phy aoe) and Cragglord then Gale Force and Thicket while in team. Gale force and Thicket are good when I solo aoe and cant let melee mobs to hit me. But when I am not alone in team and the tanks HP is running low I prefer to heal him than seal the mobs. When I heal he still hits the mobs, when I seal he cant hit the mobs that escaped and it just make the aoe kills longer.

    BTW, mystics cant knock back mobs durning aoe - we can knock back 1 mob at a time and thats all our "knocking back". The ones who knock back mobs in aoe situations are barbs and archers. b:chuckle Seal make mobs ESCAPE from us. Which is not as bad as knock back.
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I'm fine with any class in my groups when doing Delta, but knocking mobs back or sealing them is counter productive, especially when in a group that has something that can tank them without issue. It's very annoying, and this annoyance dates back to the days of FC when barbs would knock mobs back when I'm trying to AoE. Jerkfaces.



    If it's an all AA squad then they can seal and knockbock all they want, because if it's all AA that means I'm not in it. I've never had a Mystic I've run with one shot, the only one to come close was ages ago and even then it was never a one shot even when I was HFing. Granted, I haven't run with highly refined and high geared Mystics, but my point remains. The seal is annoying and counter productive to damage if you're with a group of melees. But as I said, if you're in a full arcane squad, go for it, 'cause full Arcanes means a BM isn't there. b:chuckle

    Reminds me of this effing archer that wouldnt BoA nor use the metal AoE. He would run in and KB all the mobs in FC back in days, had I been squad lead, I would of kicked his fail *** off squad the 2nd time he did it.

    It`s not really KB that drives me crazy with mystics, it`s the damn seal they do. With seal, they go and run outside range of set AoEs and ranged mobs tend to stick outside range. While on barb it`s pretty easy to fix, on sin it`s quite a bit more annoying.
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  • Annalyse - Heavens Tear
    Annalyse - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    BTW, mystics cant knock back mobs durning aoe - we can knock back 1 mob at a time and thats all our "knocking back". The ones who knock back mobs in aoe situations are barbs and archers. b:chuckle Seal make mobs ESCAPE from us. Which is not as bad as knock back.

    Worse than knockback, in my opinion. With knockback they don't go far, and they return quickly. With seal, they run so far off that in places like Metal, you can run a melee class into a second group of mobs and aggro them all. And occasionally (I've seen it in RB a lot) they don't return to their original position.

    If there are no melee classes in the group it really doesn't matter. But for melee classes it is very annoying.
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    Annalyse (veno) - Melosa (cleric) - Glynneth (archer) - Pickerel (sin)
    Florafang (wiz) - RubixCube (barb) - Laravell (psy) - Diviah (Mystic)
    Torchwood (BM) - Sataea (Seeker) - Wystera (Sin) - Allissere (SB)

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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    In an attempt to bring us back to topic... let me just say that what's "needed" for any instance depends on your definition of "need" (which players in this game in general seem to have problems with at an alarming frequency). If what you "need" is just to do the run at all, then no, you don't need, say, a Barb for Metal. You'd certainly need some kind of healer and some kind of tank, but not a specific class.

    That said, there are also runs where you don't want to do the run without the ideal classes because anything less could be an unacceptable time investment (especially if you're seeking randoms and you don't know if that random mystic is godly or a complete idiot). When I play FF on my BM, for instance, sometimes I'll WC for Barb OR Cleric. If I get a cleric, I'm more comfortable tanking myself. If I get a barb, tanking will be less of an issue and a mystic should be able to do well under most circumstances. Could I feasibly do a run with my BM as tank and a (let's say competent) mystic healing? Sure I could. But it's a bit of a risk, and sometimes we want to take that risk and sometimes we don't.

    The key is knowing the difference between "ideal" and "workable," and consciously deciding which type of squad you're willing to make on that particular day. The primary problem, particularly in squads seeking randoms, is that the WCer confuses the former for the latter... in essence, being completely unwilling to try any alternative squad arrangement because he quite stupidly believes that the ideal classes are absolutely necessary to the success of the run.

    And then of course there are the squads who insist on APS kills, which to me just screams "unreasonable impatience." But to each their own, I suppose. -_-;
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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013

    I've never had a Mystic I've run with one shot, the only one to come close was ages ago and even then it was never a one shot even when I was HFing.

    No wonder mystics have bad reputation about being DD on other servers....

    If it take you over 10 seconds to kill the wave than you and/or your squad do something wrong, when I'm in a GV after max 5 seconds there's no mobs still alive...
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  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    No class is absolutely needed for anything, thought it depend on the squad, but try to tell that to people and they just leave squad.

    I did every BH in that game without cleric and barb and sin.

    Totally agreed with this as well as most of what the OP said.

    I often laugh at people who drop squads claiming we won't be able to do this and that without x class. b:chuckle
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  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Good topic.

    One of the best compliments I've ever gotten ingame came at the end of a Caster run: "I will NEVER turn down a BM for caster again!"
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Good topic.

    One of the best compliments I've ever gotten ingame came at the end of a Caster run: "I will NEVER turn down a BM for caster again!"

    Depend which BM. Some BM are totally **** and DG without saying it, without people sparking. Some time you tell them to say when he gonna DG or at least to do it when he see people spark and they continue to DG without say or spark....
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  • akosireann
    akosireann Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Just by looking at the summon a myst has out when we roll into delta or full lunar I can already judge if it's fail or not.

    If it pulls out a chiyu I just wince.

    Having played a bm in a delta squad with the most pathetic myst I've ever known I personally asked the squad lead to kick her out for a few seconds or I totally leave squad for her ceaseless sealing and just using chiyu (It's an aoe heavy instance...why not bring out misty for her aoe's) If the run is to be made smoother, she should not be costing me evena few seconds just to wait for the mobs to run back.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Depend which BM. Some BM are totally **** and DG without saying it, without people sparking. Some time you tell them to say when he gonna DG or at least to do it when he see people spark and they continue to DG without say or spark....

    What is DG? Yes: I took the trouble to check every BM skill there is.
    One of the best compliments I've ever gotten ingame came at the end of a Caster run: "I will NEVER turn down a BM for caster again!"

    I hate to say this because I love my wiz friends and will take them just for being great people when I can, but I much preferred random Seekers in Caster to random Wizards and Clerics otherwise.

    It's tough trying to make a decent RB squad out of randoms you don't know because some classes complement each other better. There's Mystic / Psy / Wiz, and then there's Seeker / Sin / BM.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited January 2013
    I didn't know what DG was either first time I was told I use it appropriately, but it's short for dragons, as in HF.

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  • Zanryu - Lothranis
    Zanryu - Lothranis Posts: 1,998 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    No wonder mystics have bad reputation about being DD on other servers....

    If it take you over 10 seconds to kill the wave than you and/or your squad do something wrong, when I'm in a GV after max 5 seconds there's no mobs still alive...

    Keep the server I'm on in mind.
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  • Asthariel - Dreamweaver
    Asthariel - Dreamweaver Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    akosireann wrote: »
    Just by looking at the summon a myst has out when we roll into delta or full lunar I can already judge if it's fail or not.

    If it pulls out a chiyu I just wince.

    Having played a bm in a delta squad with the most pathetic myst I've ever known I personally asked the squad lead to kick her out for a few seconds or I totally leave squad for her ceaseless sealing and just using chiyu (It's an aoe heavy instance...why not bring out misty for her aoe's) If the run is to be made smoother, she should not be costing me evena few seconds just to wait for the mobs to run back.

    Hmm, what if I don't have any summon out at start ? xD
    The only summon I use in Delta is Cragglord. I will only get Mistress out in the later waves if there's anything left alive so I can use her aoe.
    Cause in early waves, I just: pull Cragglord out, plant down beffudling creeper, Thicket, gale force. After this, there's no mob left...
    I do that for every single group of mobs. If there's anything left after this combo (in later waves usually), I'll pull mistress out for her aoe and just spam gale force again (with lucky break before it if I got enough chi back at this point) and use lysing on punishing sting.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Hmm, what if I don't have any summon out at start ? xD
    The only summon I use in Delta is Cragglord. I will only get Mistress out in the later waves if there's anything left alive so I can use her aoe.
    Cause in early waves, I just: pull Cragglord out, plant down beffudling creeper, Thicket, gale force. After this, there's no mob left...
    I do that for every single group of mobs. If there's anything left after this combo (in later waves usually), I'll pull mistress out for her aoe and just spam gale force again (with lucky break before it if I got enough chi back at this point) and use lysing on punishing sting.[/COLOR]

    Cragglord cost 1905 mp, 2 sparks and is very timing dependent with HF and SS for effectiveness. Thicket is also 2 sparks and silences / freezes (same effect as GF). Aren't you basically burning MP and chi super fast? Would Lucky Break / Gale Force and Storm Mistress not be much cheaper and more effective?
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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    What is DG? Yes: I took the trouble to check every BM skill there is.

    No idea of the real name, I'm not BM, I don't know the real name of every class skills, BM my server call it like that so do I.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited January 2013
    No idea of the real name, I'm not BM, I don't know the real name of every class skills, BM my server call it like that so do I.

    Heaven's Flame, well at least that is what someone was referring to when they said it to me. :P

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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Heaven's Flame, well at least that is what someone was referring to when they said it to me. :P

    Ok thx.
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  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    Cragglord cost 1905 mp, 2 sparks and is very timing dependent with HF and SS for effectiveness. Thicket is also 2 sparks and silences / freezes (same effect as GF). Aren't you basically burning MP and chi super fast? Would Lucky Break / Gale Force and Storm Mistress not be much cheaper and more effective?

    That combo was definitely easier/cheaper to pull off back when deltas were still ran in the auras. (I sure miss them, even if they can easily be done at sp.) As for these days I really do not know. In other words yes it is quite an expensive strategy to pull off, (but is is so worth it imho) which is just another con with the removal of coins from the mushrooms in delta.

    I ran quite a few deltas (at auras) with astha, and she is still in my honest opinion hands down one of the best mystics on dreamweaver, her Cragglord tore that place up with me in there. Our tandem made that place look like a complete and utter joke. I really do not mean to be tooting my or her horn so to speak, but yea I do indeed trust mystics to get the job done in quite a few instances thanks to astha.

    It is indeed all too true we often do not need a specific class for this or that but there is sometimes no denying that certain classes make things go far smoother. Some squads just don't truly have the gear/refines to stand up tank, and kill the boss in a reasonable time before the boss becomes quite problematic for the whole squad.
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  • Allisandre - Sanctuary
    Allisandre - Sanctuary Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    Cragglord cost 1905 mp, 2 sparks and is very timing dependent with HF and SS for effectiveness. Thicket is also 2 sparks and silences / freezes (same effect as GF). Aren't you basically burning MP and chi super fast? Would Lucky Break / Gale Force and Storm Mistress not be much cheaper and more effective?
    You must not have yet seen the amount of damage the cragglord will do if properly managed in a Delta.
    Plus, in a classic Delta, chi and mana burn isn't a huge issue. It's only in spawn that there's a problem with that.
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  • _MonoxidE_ - Sanctuary
    _MonoxidE_ - Sanctuary Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I always get a huge laugh when I see people whining for barbs in FB59. I guess no one bothers to realize that all of the bosses in there do purely magical damage and having a barb tank is one of the stupidest things you can do. It's much better tanked by a wizard or psychic.

    The last time I did bh59 we had 2 clerics and 2 archers. Everyone said we needed a tank and started calling for a barb. I told the squad we had a tank already. One cleric tanked while the other healed. She acted scared all the way through and swore she would die but didnt. At the end everyone told her awesome job which really gave her a sense of accomplishment and taught her something she nor anyone else in squad thought she could do.
  • Asthariel - Dreamweaver
    Asthariel - Dreamweaver Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    Cragglord cost 1905 mp, 2 sparks and is very timing dependent with HF and SS for effectiveness. Thicket is also 2 sparks and silences / freezes (same effect as GF). Aren't you basically burning MP and chi super fast? Would Lucky Break / Gale Force and Storm Mistress not be much cheaper and more effective?

    Well, tbh I started running Delta on mystic back when it was worth it money-wise (200k+ per frag on my server, which was in 2011). Back then, I used to run full deltas several times a day, everyday, with Slivaf, as he said.

    He knew about my combo and its huge effectiveness (I've already seen a 170k hit from cragglord in one skill during HF, but this was with atk auras, ofc), so, as he was the one setting auras up, he would put a high lvl chi aura quite early on so I could always be full chi and do this combo without wasting any time/mana making chi back.
    As long as him and I were there, we never failed a single delta even if the rest of the squad failed.

    Anyways, a few monthes later, spawn point delta became the norm and frags price lowered considerably...
    I was so used to run delta with that combo, that I never stopped using this even in spawn point. Now I actually have to refill to full chi between each group of mobs (fortunately I'm sage), and it indeed takes a fair bit of mana to refill chi by spamming petals/BitC, but I don't really mind burning mana as long as I can be as effective as I can possibly be. And trust me, I still am.
    My cragglord can still hit up to 100k with one skill during HF. And, most good bms on my server will HF after stunning, so most of the time I can get cragglord out and start using his skills right when HF starts.

    Yes, lucky break + gale force is nice enough that this alone doesn't kill mobs fast enough, as I only do about 40k with it. And most mobs have more HP than this.
    Well, my combo may be a bit mana-hungry (well, having to get full chi back between each group is the only thing that actually costs much mana), but that's really the most effective thing a mystic can do in delta. Anyways, many classes have expenses relative to their job in delta: barbs/bms got big repair bill (and will possibly need HP food), archers need arrows and quite alot of mana for BoA, seekers are huge mana hoes with vortex, and, well mystics will need alot of mana too to maximize their damage potential. I just deal with it ;o
  • Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear
    Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear Posts: 879 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I was running WS with my barb, a bm, sin, cleric, 2 archers. Me the bm and sin were the only ones that were staying alive fighting the mobs. Even with my agro, the cleric kept dieing. At one point, the archers and cleric went afk. We ran all the pavs, killing all the mobs, with no deaths and no prob. By the time they came back from afk, we had cleared everything except wood. Afterwards we did the bosses. That run to me proved that you don't need clerics for every little thing. They come in handy at the bosses and large pulls. We ran through it faster doing group by group with 3 people, then we did pulling large groups to bb. Gotta love demon HF and BP.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    No idea of the real name, I'm not BM, I don't know the real name of every class skills, BM my server call it like that so do I.

    Then please stop derailing threads with things that don't make sense. You're being extremely rude expecting people to have to look things up to try to understand you when you're not even understandable by your own account.
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Let's not forget that the speed of the run is no more worthy a criteria than having the ideal classes. You don't need a sin or a BM any more than you need a barb or a cleric. Nobody wants their Metal or Aba/SoT to take an hour, but some people take impatience to the extreme by requiring aps kills and crazy damage outputs via HF. And HF is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it's no more required than the barb's HP or the cleric's BB. And don't even get me started on people who whine about BP. XD
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  • Castgurl - Raging Tide
    Castgurl - Raging Tide Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    That reminds me of a few BH runs and even FC runs (lv.100+ mind you) that I've done a long time ago and even occurring now a days. Most FC runs can be cleared without a healer present and even without a full squad lol. I lmao when I see someone invite a barb or seeker, see that we don't have a sin for BP - then start with the "Np BP???" "Gonna take long without 1 D:" "Sorry, I need sin..."drops squad

    Then we start clearing and the whole run takes no more than 20-25 minutes LOL b:bye
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