Barbarians aggro- Please vote

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  • Hannsel - Dreamweaver
    Hannsel - Dreamweaver Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    BP only gives 2~3% heals which is perfectly fine. its only 'broken' in pwi cause ppl have insane dps
  • Kwandelan - Heavens Tear
    Kwandelan - Heavens Tear Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    All the skills of all classes, including barbs are actually perfect. Like I said in an earlier post on this thread, I dont usually have problems with keeping aggro on bosses..unless the sin is a way too op fellow. Im not saying I keep aggro 100%, but I have it mostly now with the recent release of s3 gear (I use the non-boutique TT/Nirvana s3 set).

    I just realised the ultimate solution that can definitely reduce QQ from all classes by a large extent! Cap APS to 2.5 or 3.33 MAX b:byeb:victory

    If you actually think over it, it IS the best thing PWI can ever do to "balance" the classes PvE content-wise. Sins/BMs will still be able to do decent dmg, barbs will hold aggro, ubersquishy sins wont kill themselves at bosses with their fail gears, more players will play their clerics/barbs(and other classes). And uh...yeah.


    Edit:
    Telarith/tweakz(and other like-minded people)
    Lemme tell ya something. Sure every class with decent gear can tank. Also, sometimes it is a necessity that an arcane class or some specific class tank some boss or instance. Even then, what you guys fail to realise is, in a role-playing game like this, every class is designed for a specific role.
    I'm not saying barbs should be the only tank class. But at the same time, Barbarian class was/is designed to be the original tank class. Yes, sure you can say your clerics/mystics/whatever else tanks SoT, but how do you forget the "main role" of the Cleric class? they are designed to be a support class and squad healers. Similarly, BMs have the defense and all that makes them have enough survival and gives them a chance at tanking. BUT the essential difference is, Barbs were made as primary tanks (high hp to absorb damage and keep aggro/ low dmg output as a malus.) Whereas, BMs were designed to be secondary tanks, and the main class for crowd control (aka aoe tanking). Mystics/Archers/Sins/Venomancers/Wizards/Seekers are primarily a DD class. If you think your alts belonging to these classes can tank certain aspects of the game, it still doesnt not mean they are a tank class. It ONLY means you have the gear to tank certain stuff and survive.

    As of right now, with everyone getting r9/boutique gear with way too high defenses, it has become possible for any class (whether it be a healer or a primary Dmg-doer) to be a Tank. But just wanted to point out the different between Barbs being the original TANK class and other classes, and the necessity to fix things so they(the barbs) can do their job right.
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I`m pretty sure barb generates more aggro being 5aps than with axes - accounting same grade of gear. If twitching generates more aggro than spamming FR, etc. it`s pretty clear sign something is pretty broken.

    Most often the "good barbs" are simply tanking w/o boss getting debuffed. As honestly, there is no barb who could keep aggro on high end squads. I`m talking the ones where weps are R9/G16 +10-12. 3 spark, HF, sin or two and bosses drop in spark or two. You can be R999 +12 barb and youre not gonna hold aggro off that.

    A lot of people dont realize the aps isnt such a problem with lower tier squads as those are the G13 sins with +5 wep, which isnt really good for anything but creating chi.

    Ps. HP doesnt make barb the tank, it helps surviving but tank is the one with aggro, js.
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  • Unholly - Lothranis
    Unholly - Lothranis Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Im not going to profess to know much about barbs aggro but if they went all out in strength instead of vit wouldn't that give them better aggro? sure they would lose a lot of hp, but with all your hp buffs you are still probably going to have more hp than any other equally geared classes, no?

    most of the time all i see is vit barbs who just do the Caterpillar down b lane to the crystal once a week.

    b:surrender either way if someone is taking aggro i would say let them, if they can tank the boss they just made the boss go that much faster for you. if they cant then have a little chuckle at them and take aggro after they die.

    what with almost everyone in g16 gear now, do we really want to make the pve in this game any easier?
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  • Swampfoot - Raging Tide
    Swampfoot - Raging Tide Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The boost to Devour based on max hp was a step in the right direction IMO. As a catapuller build sage vit barb... its pretty easy to hold aggro in FWS runs from everyone in squad except for the occaisonal game of aggro pong with R9rr +10-12 sins and occasionally a really highly geared archer will make boss move. But its pretty easy to grab aggro back and snag the boss before it gets out of melee range. I guess it all comes down to a good squad working together. There will always be someone, be it barb or DD with better gear and higher aggro holding/damage inflicting ability so there is no one magic fix to make it so barbs can be the only tank, nor should they be.

    The key for me is that if another class wants to tank.. go for it. if they **** up and get killed... Im still gonna survive and get my kill. Unless someone speaks up and says "let me tank this one" I expect to do my best to hold aggro. If they out DD my aggro... then its on them to survive it until I can get aggro back. One of the first things I learned in this game as a barb was that it was my job to fight the fight, keep the boss busy long enough to let the DDs finish the fight. So if they pulled aggro then it was assumed they were doing so when they felt good enough that they could kill the boss before they got crushed.

    There will always be the chance that the DDs will go nutz and do so much damage that the barb wont be able to hold aggro. Especially as the DDs always seem to get more damage increases with every update while barbs rarely get defensive or aggro increases and are shackled with lower offensive increases usually.

    Side note: looking forward to the panda defensive boosts... finally something to offset all the ridiculous DD offensive boosts.

    Pet Peeve: Clerics who assume the barb wont hold aggro and heal a sin even when I'm holding aggro just fine in a boss fight while my charm keeps ticking.

    I do wish we had more AOE aggro capability. after we sunder, switch forms and arma.. thats a lot of aggro, but if an archer or wizzy pulls aggro after that... all we have left is a couple of weak aoes that only reset aggro for a second or two before the mobs jump right back on the wizzy or archer again.
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Swampfoot - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Side note: looking forward to the panda defensive boosts... finally something to offset all the ridiculous DD offensive boosts.

    What boosts? Throw a link or smth, been w/o reliable internet access since xmas day - just got moms old laptop on yesterday so I can do something more than lurk with iphone.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • Tide_Surfer - Archosaur
    Tide_Surfer - Archosaur Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »
    What boosts? Throw a link or smth, been w/o reliable internet access since xmas day - just got moms old laptop on yesterday so I can do something more than lurk with iphone.

    Barbs just plainly need to be able to given the skill to hold aggro off other people, heck I'm an R8 weapon and G16 armour psychic and I still rip aggro off barbs EVERY full warsong, even R9 barbs.
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  • Apostasy - Raging Tide
    Apostasy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,197 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What they need to do is boost up all the aggro skills somewhat and add some kind of bonus % aggro per +atk level maybe as a passive levelling skill (1-10 and demon or sage)? so +1% aggro to the base skills per +1 atk lvl? That should be good enough if the tank knows which skills to use. Fact is, most players do not have any understanding of "aggro skills"... ask venomancers about roar on any of their tank pets... lol... most reply that, "but that skill is worthless, is does no damage... bash and/or flesh ream is better" b:surrender

    The other problem is the dd classes themselves, most have no understanding of "aggro control"... so the problem does not rest entirely on the aggro skills of barbs to begin with...
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Am I the only one here who doesn't support buffing Ream? -_-

    Ream was perfectly fine back in the day when people didn't have these crazy damage outputs they do today. The problem was never Ream. The problem is peoples' gear and the devs not doing anything to limit that. The game just wasn't designed for the possibility of everyone and their grandma having +10 weps with 40-50 attack levels. >_> That was supposed to be an exceptionally rare thing to see. Now it's commonplace, bosses that were supposed to take 5min go down in 30sec, and most of PVE is a joke. The solution is to fix what's broken, not to break what isn't broken just so they can match.

    If you're a barb who's frustrated by APS people, then get Stomp of the King or just don't invite APS people to your squad. Contrary to popular belief, at least 90% of the PVE game can be done perfectly fine without them.
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  • Reliea - Sanctuary
    Reliea - Sanctuary Posts: 685 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well, it's both.
    Barbs need more aggro - maybe their aggro skills shouldn't cost chi to cast? If they were more easily spamable they might not necessarily require any other upgrade.
    With the increased damage output from epic weapons, aggro from barb skills really need to scale accordingly. It's really unreasonable to expect that skills from the inception of the game should be able to handle modern gear and style developments without some upgrade.

    DD also need to learn to control their damage if they can't tank. If they can't tank, and do too much damage that a barb can't control, then well, they really can't complain when they die. If it's going to mess up the squad if one of the DDs take aggro, it's their job to make sure they're playing responsibly.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    yes, what is broken is that people are getting way overpowered. As is explained in another forum post called power creep. That is not gonna change obviously, if they would reduce the strength of the best equipment youd have a riot, people quiting, leaving the game and sending powder letters to the PWE offices.

    So to balance the game with those overpowered weapons, we need barb agro skills that match that damage output and new instances with new bosses that match both the offencive and defensive strenth of all these G16+10-12 geared people. Espescially since now with the cheap cannies it wont take long before Nirvana G16 is gonna be the poor peoples standard equipment.
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »
    yes, what is broken is that people are getting way overpowered. As is explained in another forum post called power creep. That is not gonna change obviously, if they would reduce the strength of the best equipment youd have a riot, people quiting, leaving the game and sending powder letters to the PWE offices.

    So to balance the game with those overpowered weapons, we need barb agro skills that match that damage output and new instances with new bosses that match both the offencive and defensive strenth of all these G16+10-12 geared people. Espescially since now with the cheap cannies it wont take long before Nirvana G16 is gonna be the poor peoples standard equipment.
    Which itself is ridiculous because you don't even need G13 nirvana to do PVE. You could do half of PVE in NPC gear if you wanted to. I mean, I agree with you that at this point it'd be hard if not impossible to scale back the broken gear. But tbh, that's part of why this game is dying a slow death... because the devs and PWE have put themselves in a box that they can't get out of without seriously hurting themselves. I mean, what I'd love to see is a brand spankin' new server without rep sales, without packs, without silly gear like s3 with massive atk/def levels... that way you could be on the original servers if you want to be broken, and the new one if you don't. But that's kinda off-topic so I'll shut up now. XD
    Reliea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, it's both.
    Barbs need more aggro - maybe their aggro skills shouldn't cost chi to cast? If they were more easily spamable they might not necessarily require any other upgrade.
    With the increased damage output from epic weapons, aggro from barb skills really need to scale accordingly. It's really unreasonable to expect that skills from the inception of the game should be able to handle modern gear and style developments without some upgrade.

    DD also need to learn to control their damage if they can't tank. If they can't tank, and do too much damage that a barb can't control, then well, they really can't complain when they die. If it's going to mess up the squad if one of the DDs take aggro, it's their job to make sure they're playing responsibly.
    Well the problem isn't DD's who can't tank. In fact the problem is DDs who CAN tank, because that just defeats the entire purpose of a DD class. I'll be in, say, BH Aba squads on my barb, with a couple of sins who can clearly just tank the whole damn thing themselves, and I'll just stop attacking because what the hell's the point? But if they didn't have their OP gear, they couldn't tank and they'd be right back to the DD role they were designed for. Lest we forget, the definition of a tank is not "someone who can hold aggro no matter who else is in the squad." The role of a tank is above all to soak damage. If you've got an axe-only BM who can soak a boss's damage, and a sin who can't, which one is the tank?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    Other Active Characters:
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  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Thing is, as has been posted in the past, if we're doing changes based off of what is perceived to be class roles then arma needs to come out. That isn't a tank type skill. Neither is a 35% crit chance boost. Basically most of the heavy DD skills should be removed, as they have nothing to do with the tank role.

    But both barbs and bms were designed to be both tank and dd. It didn't state barb was better tank, people just saw more aggro skills and health per vit and made the assumption. Which got passed down to newer players. The only reason fists ever had a point, was for high damage output with -int. While BMs had their threat generating skill, fist was designed as their main aggro skill. High APS with the attack speed buff even in that category. They were designed to tank in slightly different ways: but still to tank.

    They are both tanks, and never was it stated by PWI barb was best tank. It seems mostly a transference of how it works in other games, that it should be the same here as well. Barbs have tiger form for higher health and boosted defense; BMs have marrow for an even higher defense boost (just cancel magic attack). Barbs have more threat skills, BMs had the fists and APS boost even before stacked interval/demon spark shows up.

    Yes, they have different ways designed for each to tank. But that doesn't mean the traditional threat tanking makes barbs the primary role tank. If so, BMs should not have been able to tank their own FBs even before the anni packs. And once end game bosses came around, it would lead to end game sharding and refining anyways. So at best there might be a window where threat with higher health would be better. But that would go away as well, because the game is designed that way. And it was very evident even back in 2008.
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  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thing is, as has been posted in the past, if we're doing changes based off of what is perceived to be class roles then arma needs to come out. That isn't a tank type skill. Neither is a 35% crit chance boost. Basically most of the heavy DD skills should be removed, as they have nothing to do with the tank role.

    That`s just utterly idiotic. Barb deals distinctly less DPS compared to intended DD classes and it`s a sign of a class roles. Arma, Sunder, the heavy hitting skills are mostly AoEs, with how bestial rage generates chi when getting hit, I believe those are to generate AoE aggro. It could of been done with skills that dont do dmg, just create aggro, like roar that resets it.

    But a class that has no hard hitting skills, what you consider being needed for "intended tank class" would be just trash in PK. When it comes to PK, on the old classes BMs were more bout controlling enemy and barbs more bout quick burst as barbs got few hard nukes with quite a lack of CC skills.

    But this is mostly pointless, there is no dungeon with current gear where barb would be needed for tanking. Which makes barbs quite UP in PvE as there isnt much use for them `cept buffing.

    Rest of the post is just stupid assumptions and ignorance - aps isnt truly reliable way to control aggro till permaspark, which is such endgame(lvl 100+) that calling BMs "main" tanking class is plain stupid. The refines/shards people roll these days break game pretty hard and just because anybody can tank pretty much anything these days with proper gear doesnt mean everybody was intended as tank class.

    BMs got aggro skill(s?) and there is clear intent on having 2nd tank class but just looking skill setups it`s clear which class was intended as main tank class. Having only 1 class that can tank would be broken but situation where most dps = best way to tank everything is ludicrously broken. Who the heck is stupid enough to pick aggro tank when you can take dps tank, that lives just fine and gets bosses down distinctly faster? It`s flat out broken, if it was intended, there would be no such thing as aggro skills. There was intended to be 2 paths to tank, problem is other being way too strong in comparison.
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  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    @ Telarith, what is the barb job in your opinion then? Just out of interest.
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  • Yin - Momaganon
    Yin - Momaganon Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    If barbs could hold agro, wouldn't it be little too easy to run instances? Like it wasn't easy enough already?
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thing is, as has been posted in the past, if we're doing changes based off of what is perceived to be class roles then arma needs to come out. That isn't a tank type skill. Neither is a 35% crit chance boost. Basically most of the heavy DD skills should be removed, as they have nothing to do with the tank role.

    But both barbs and bms were designed to be both tank and dd. It didn't state barb was better tank, people just saw more aggro skills and health per vit and made the assumption. Which got passed down to newer players. The only reason fists ever had a point, was for high damage output with -int. While BMs had their threat generating skill, fist was designed as their main aggro skill. High APS with the attack speed buff even in that category. They were designed to tank in slightly different ways: but still to tank.

    They are both tanks, and never was it stated by PWI barb was best tank. It seems mostly a transference of how it works in other games, that it should be the same here as well. Barbs have tiger form for higher health and boosted defense; BMs have marrow for an even higher defense boost (just cancel magic attack). Barbs have more threat skills, BMs had the fists and APS boost even before stacked interval/demon spark shows up.

    Yes, they have different ways designed for each to tank. But that doesn't mean the traditional threat tanking makes barbs the primary role tank. If so, BMs should not have been able to tank their own FBs even before the anni packs. And once end game bosses came around, it would lead to end game sharding and refining anyways. So at best there might be a window where threat with higher health would be better. But that would go away as well, because the game is designed that way. And it was very evident even back in 2008.
    One problem with this right off the bat: Fists are not an aggro-generating skill. They are aggro-generating gear. Or more specifically, DPS gear that generates aggro simply by how OP they are with -int. Huge difference there. You could just as easily claim sins were meant to be tanks by calling daggers an "aggro-generating skill."

    Don't ever base your arguments on what PW* has said, because PW* says so very little on any subject and what they do say is dubious and frequently contradicted by future statements. If we got v4liance to say today that barbs were meant to be the main tank, would you take that as gospel? I wouldn't, even though I believe that to be the case. We have to look at what the devs designed, and what was likely to be deliberate and what was just a programming oversight.

    Setting barbs to gain 17 HP / Vit, for instance... that was a clearly deliberate choice, because someone had to set that constant variable directly. By contrast, the fact that sins can solo instances is a combination of their high DPS, the existence of high APS builds, and Bloodpaint. Three factors... each deliberate in their own right (except the second, but that's debatable), but the fact that they work together to cause this capability is likely not deliberate. Think about it... if you were designing an MMO, would you design a god class? Would you design something that can tank and DD and heal itself and basically destroy the entire PVE game with the right gear? Would any dev in their right mind see that as being good game balance?
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »
    That`s just utterly idiotic. Barb deals distinctly less DPS compared to intended DD classes and it`s a sign of a class roles. Arma, Sunder, the heavy hitting skills are mostly AoEs, with how bestial rage generates chi when getting hit, I believe those are to generate AoE aggro. It could of been done with skills that dont do dmg, just create aggro, like roar that resets it.

    You may consider wiz an intended dd class, I consider it a tank. Equally geared barb can out dd wiz, and for many things an equally geared wiz can out tank a Barb. I agree with some others that this game is not some other game and shouldn't be expected to be like it (or there'd be no point to having different games).
    But this is mostly pointless, there is no dungeon with current gear where barb would be needed for tanking. Which makes barbs quite UP in PvE as there isnt much use for them `cept buffing.

    Not every squad gets filled with 5 tanks. As I've mentioned: some can tank only with the assistance of a Barb (Frighten, Devour, Roar (reduces matk)). I've also already mentioned that no other class can round up mobs for aoe like a Barb. Very much needed class w/o being needed to tank. No other class is more requested in WC's than Barb.
    Rest of the post is just stupid assumptions and ignorance - aps isnt truly reliable way to control aggro till permaspark, which is such endgame(lvl 100+) that calling BMs "main" tanking class is plain stupid. The refines/shards people roll these days break game pretty hard and just because anybody can tank pretty much anything these days with proper gear doesnt mean everybody was intended as tank class.

    Wiz has undine and sage db for aggro skills, it also has defense buffs making it a tank. Likewise Mystic has Verdant Shell, Spider Vine, etc. A 6.5k hp veno can easily tank Snakefist while weak barbs struggle. The new BH SoT boss has a buff that reduces phys dmg making a mage an ideal tank. Deny all you want, but the game was not made to be played the way some want to play it.
    BMs got aggro skill(s?) and there is clear intent on having 2nd tank class but just looking skill setups it`s clear which class was intended as main tank class.

    I have a BM, I consider it less of a tank than wiz or mystic. BM has one distinct aggro skill, and it's not AoE, and not effective enough to bother using.

    A single tank solution is to simple and out dated. This game has depth. It's too bad some can't appreciate it.
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote:
    A single tank solution is to simple and out dated. This game has depth. It's too bad some can't appreciate it.
    No one is saying that barbs should be the only class to ever tank anything. That wasn't true at launch and it isn't true today. Even some simple instances like BH79 can be tanked by arcanes under BB.

    But don't call skills like Undine and DB "aggro skills." Undine lowers resistance to increase DPS, sure. But DPS =/= aggro skills. An aggro skill is one that generates significantly higher aggro than it would by pure DPS alone. As you mentioned, Stream is technically such a skill, but too bad it's such a crappy one (if you ask me, they should buff Stream long before Ream). Another example is Bash on veno pets... but for actual characters, the only really good one is Ream (and perhaps Devour if they buff it, but Devour has the side effect of benefiting APS people far more than the barb aggro-wise).
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  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    much of what you post is a bit laughable, but this really tops it.
    This game has depth. It's too bad some can't appreciate it
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tweakz wrote: »

    A single tank solution is to simple and out dated. This game has depth. It's too bad some can't appreciate it.

    This game has never been single tank game but barbs, as a class were intended to be able to tank anything, the go to class for tank. Like I said, game is broken if there is only 1 class being able to tank stuff. But there was clearly 2 ways to hold aggro, one dealing more damage than others and 2nd being threat skills, most importantly FR. But problem is how one path has massive advantages over the other, with pretty much no disadvantages. There is no longer any choice, one is flat out better, which funnily enough is taking depth away from the game.

    Ps. Truly, when barb generates more aggro with claws compared to the intended threat skills they have, it`s pretty strong sign they arent sufficient.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    But don't call skills like Undine and DB "aggro skills." Undine lowers resistance to increase DPS, sure.

    The dps isn't great for a single dd especially in warsong where the mobs have little to no mdef anyway. The aggro from undine comes from it being a debuff. If you don't think Sage DB is an aggro skill; you might want to RB with a wiz that has it some time, or just look up the comments on it in this forum. There is no better AoE aggro skill than Sage DB.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »
    @ Telarith, what is the barb job in your opinion then? Just out of interest.

    Same as in the other thread I quoted: barbs should be tank class (not sole tank class) and DD. The taking out arma and such was in regards to people saying everything should have a set role. No pure tank class should be able to one shot other characters, that isn't tanking; it's DD. Can't use the logic with the intent of only good and not the bad as well. And I agree with the barb above you, that logic is stupid.

    I even voted for increasing their aggro skills before as well. But even back then, there didn't seem to be enough areas where it would really shift team dynamic much to make them a group requirement as many want. It's why my main suggestion in the other thread, was geared towards making their number and style (single and AoE) of threat generating skills when they design a new high lvl dungeon. Skills could be shifted a bit in threat if needed, but it would make it that having a barb along would speed things up quite a bit. Much in the same way BMs would be taken along for HF amping.

    It would let the tank-built barb play as they wanted, and give them a more dynamic role than simply focusing on boss, with aggro skills giving so high a threat they can faceroll. If at the end it turns out a boss or two is designed for a different class to tank, they can suck in their pride for a bit and focus on debuffs and interrupts. I had no problem wielding Dark Flashes anytime a good barb wanted to tank, still have them in inventory since lvl 70.. So I have no empathy for anyone who wants the focus on them all the time. Others adjust, and are even expected to adjust. No sense leaving the barb out as well in that.

    So in summation; I'd recommend threat rework, new instance (possibly new skill) that makes use a barb's skills that having one along as tank or AoE tank speeds up the run. Or for that matter, have dungeons that are actually thought requiring, and let every class' individual skills shine at different points. Not in favor of facerolling, or barbs being a requirement though.

    EDIT:
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    But don't call skills like Undine and DB "aggro skills." Undine lowers resistance to increase DPS, sure. But DPS =/= aggro skills. An aggro skill is one that generates significantly higher aggro than it would by pure DPS alone. As you mentioned, Stream is technically such a skill, but too bad it's such a crappy one (if you ask me, they should buff Stream long before Ream). Another example is Bash on veno pets... but for actual characters, the only really good one is Ream (and perhaps Devour if they buff it, but Devour has the side effect of benefiting APS people far more than the barb aggro-wise).

    Status is a form of non-DPS aggro, it's how BMs can AoE aggro with Roar of the Pride. It doesn't even need to succeed in stunning, resists will also shift aggro to the BM. It's used alot in Rebirth and FCC. Wouldn't be surprised that all status effects generate threat lvl, seeing as when I went early TT farming on Chintien with an equal lvl veno with a crystalline pet. If I just did Cyclone/Plume, I could avoid taking aggro off pet. If I used Thunderbolt to lower my DPS damage, I would keep stealing aggro from the pet. It happened multiple times, so the DoT status effect created more threat than a higher DPS combo.

    Also used to do Rebirths with a wizzie, as soon as they got their celestial DB skill learned, they had to stop doing Rebirths. The constant stun attempts made it impossible for him not to grab aggro, whereas right before learning it he never had any trouble. DB is a huge threat generator once it gets the stun chance.
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  • FayHumming - Dreamweaver
    FayHumming - Dreamweaver Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    b:surrenderjust remove aps
    the survival of the fittest

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  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Ok, I actually agree with what Telarith stated as a barbarian role but they definately should make a new instance for barbs because in some squads you are just... completely left out. No much work left when squad has a veno with myriad rainbow to debuff, BM, sin to tank bosses and seeker who wants to pull mobs. It's just... buffing and frightening. Cannot devour so I won't ruin the possible armor break. This is how it works in OP squads, anyways.

    What comes to using alacrity my main focus has been to learn to time it right at each and every boss it might be used at, such as TT bosses.

    Wish people would run delta more. There people still want barb to gather the mobs and bring them to vortex so the defense ability plays some sort of role. In many instances you do not need this defense role. Just run in vortex and you are safe. I don't even bother to invoke in FC or such places.
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  • BringinDeath - Archosaur
    BringinDeath - Archosaur Posts: 393 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    A tank hit's extremely hard yet is slow in attack but makes up for it with it's defence.

    Well Barbs really don't hit that hard now even with G16 weapon, and soon as a barb uses invoke, rushes in & roars, a seeker just uses vortex & takes the aggro. So what is the point of a barb having roar now?

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