Barbarians aggro- Please vote

Beleni - Dreamweaver

Do you think that Barbarians should get more aggro added to their attacks.
be it single target aggro or AOE ..
for example make Flesh Ream add 100k Aggro bonus
or a balanced verison - 300 % of wep damage added to DOT

DOT aggro added to Roar -> was a nice suggestion - not damage but aggro

As a barbarian i am happy with the new increases the class has got, but the devs could do alot more to make game play more enjoyable for not only barbarians - but other class that benefit from us having higher aggro


Please feel free to comment, done some ingame polls : intrested to see what the trolls come up with

Side note - Please leave in general discussion since it would not only affect barbarian class' but most parties.

Gralkon - Archosaur

Personally I think that all of the agro abilities should be an automatic hold for 6 seconds on mobs. Just like raging slap in PvP. Also each barb auto attack should generate more threat. Just my two cents based on other mmorpg's that I have played.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Barb cannot hold aggro on anything (AOE or not) these days while it's suppose to be their job, PWI should really do something about it, cause a class that is a tank, but cannot hold aggro it's lame. (I do not blame the barbs for it)

Geckofreak - Sanctuary

They definitely need more aggro. Back before OP punch punch punch punch punch stab stab stab stab stab in a second barbs already had a hard time holding aggro. Now with the punch punch punch punch punch stab stab stab stab stab there is no way they can hold aggro and many barbs have stopped playing barbs or became punch punch punch punch punch because they feel useless otherwise having low damage. Make barbs mob magnets again!

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

Giving Flesh Ream more aggro as well as strengthening Roar's aggro allocation to its user would be nice. They can even make Sunder into an "AoE Flesh Ream" to be used with Stomp of the King~

Telarith - Sanctuary

Actually, we had a really good barb with average gear who could grab and keep aggro pretty decently from 4.0 BMs before sins came around. And before that, barbs were not the defacto tank. Krixxix? Call a wizzie. Same with the water boss in FB59. We had a lvl 64 BM that tanked all of BH59, since there was only 1 barb high enough for that one yet. It's only in the barb's minds, and lazy players, that barbs came to mind as the only tank. Which they abused by being greedy as heck back during early day TT runs.

This thread has happened many times since anni packs first came out, and it boils down to one thing: it doesn't matter. Toss a bunch of aggro to even the tune of a million dmg worth per skill, it doesn't matter. Lease as is, it doesn't matter. Because aggro is only useful when keeping the DD from dieing. And if they can survive, or have a DD that deals the most and can survive, they already have their aggro generating tank. It won't suddenly make barbs more needed, unless they tweak the heck out of all the major bosses. Which would nerf everyone else, and give rise to the "All drops to me" barb playstyle of old.

So some people made barbs thinking they were the only tanks available, and are mad because it wasn't so. So what? We should reward their ignorance? This BM I currently use was made fist from Nov 2008, with all weapons planned by the time I reached the point of AoE mobs with Calamities. I had bracers of blood moon, and the -interval path set before March 09. All with the endgoal of being a tank capable in group or solo play. So I counter their ignorance with my knowledge; why should my well-thought out plan of being an end game tank be screwed because someone who came around after me didn't know enough to realize that barbs weren't the only tank class? Just because it didn't fit their plan? Maybe they should looked around a bit first then.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary

Yes other classes have always been able to tank bosses, but barbs were designed to be able to tank the bosses not through having most damage and being able to live with cleric healing, but through having threat level above other players to keep the bosses attention, and also to be able to pull mobs effectively too.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes other classes have always been able to tank bosses, but barbs were designed to be able to tank the bosses not through having most damage and being able to live with cleric healing, but through having threat level above other players to keep the bosses attention, and also to be able to pull mobs effectively too.

There really wasn't anywhere for an AoE catch for barbs to do; it was veno pull, barb catch. Only with the change to FCC did barbs really start doing AoE pulls for group experience. Zhenning was anyone with a mount could pull. And even with FCC, AoE pulls were still able to be done with BMs using stun aggro, which had nothing to do with APS. BMs were given aggro skills as well, so if going off aggro skills designating tanks, they have em too.

And it was always known how threat worked, or didn't when Flesh Reams would miss over and over thanks to Vit built barbs, which is why people would hold back on damage when a non-threat generating class tanked.

But again, that is all in the past. Even with an aggro rework for only one of the classes that possesses aggro skills *cough*favoritism*cough*, it won't change the reality that even with the rework it won't make them needed in end game instances. And really, no class should be indispensable when the others are mostly PnP. All high aggro will do is make it ridiculously no-skilled at low lvl (alright I FRed once, now my barb will sit here as I go make a sandwich), or make a boss so hard that it will require a barb. Which will, again, just make for really greedy barb players demanding major concessions to "grace" us with their presence.

Main thing is the way the game was set up from inception, was allowing for other classes to tank end game. Barbs had the easiest path (once the update hit making FR 100% accuracy), but others could do it even with low refines. Which would mean as everyone's gear/refines progressed, the barb tank would not be mandatory. Heck, my lvl 80 cleric used to solo Tunderclaw in FCC before they did the change. So no idea why people thought aggro skills would last forever. Unless they didn't use PWdatabase while leveling up.

SteelStar - Heavens Tear

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

There really wasn't anywhere for an AoE catch for barbs to do; it was veno pull, barb catch. Only with the change to FCC did barbs really start doing AoE pulls for group experience. Zhenning was anyone with a mount could pull. And even with FCC, AoE pulls were still able to be done with BMs using stun aggro, which had nothing to do with APS. BMs were given aggro skills as well, so if going off aggro skills designating tanks, they have em too.

And it was always known how threat worked, or didn't when Flesh Reams would miss over and over thanks to Vit built barbs, which is why people would hold back on damage when a non-threat generating class tanked.

But again, that is all in the past. Even with an aggro rework for only one of the classes that possesses aggro skills *cough*favoritism*cough*, it won't change the reality that even with the rework it won't make them needed in end game instances. And really, no class should be indispensable when the others are mostly PnP. All high aggro will do is make it ridiculously no-skilled at low lvl (alright I FRed once, now my barb will sit here as I go make a sandwich), or make a boss so hard that it will require a barb. Which will, again, just make for really greedy barb players demanding major concessions to "grace" us with their presence.

Main thing is the way the game was set up from inception, was allowing for other classes to tank end game. Barbs had the easiest path (once the update hit making FR 100% accuracy), but others could do it even with low refines. Which would mean as everyone's gear/refines progressed, the barb tank would not be mandatory. Heck, my lvl 80 cleric used to solo Tunderclaw in FCC before they did the change. So no idea why people thought aggro skills would last forever. Unless they didn't use PWdatabase while leveling up.

Which was a glitch that was and wasn't suppose to be that wa and FR doesn't miss, it is not possible! 100% accurate!

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Do you think that Barbarians should get more aggro added to their attacks.
be it single target aggro or AOE ..

by all means if they want to do their jobs, i say let them >_> its a good thing

Telarith - Sanctuary

SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Which was a glitch that was and wasn't suppose to be that way!

As long as it wasn't pulled through walls or such, it was one of the condoned glitches. Kinda like Zhenning; technically shouldn't be allowed, but since it was a money maker.....

Still, not sure it was ever said unsummoning the pet wasn't supposed to transfer the aggro to the veno. The veno gets the count for the damage being dealt, so once the pet isn't there the aggro is still on the veno. Or if the unsummon function counts as using a skill on the pet, it would be the same as heal aggro.

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

Everyone has their own opinions, but self-assumed Know-it-alls like Telarith come here to show their ignorance regarding roles of classes.

Although I'd have liked to give a "proper" reply to such posts, I dont feel like..since PWI has messed it up big time with their boutique gear.
The thing called 'Aggro' doesnt matter anymore (to the "majority" of the whatever leftover playerbase that still plays this game) -- because the current trend in PWI is making a new character, powerlvling it up all the way to 100-105 and putting r9 stuff and/or +10-+12 refines;JOSDs; 5.0, etc. etc.
With such gear, anyone can tank and "anyone" DOES tank.


On the topic, I'd still like if their change how threat is calculated.
Also, (just a random tip) it would be good if they gave Sins or maybe Archers a skill to "direct" their threat generated to the barb (or whoever thats tanking). Will help with aggro, thus saving the non-cashshopping sins from dying.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

You should have put the option ''both AOE and single target'' cause now the vote are in 2 category, but actually they are all yes.

Sagek - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

You should have put the option ''both AOE and single target'' cause now the vote are in 2 category, but actually they are all yes.

You're not a barb.....

Beleni - Dreamweaver

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

You should have put the option ''both AOE and single target'' cause now the vote are in 2 category, but actually they are all yes.

it is a multi Vote one, can vote for both

Beleni - Dreamweaver

Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're not a barb.....

The thread is open to anyone - since it would affect the majority of parties

Sagek - Sanctuary

Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The thread is open to anyone - since it would affect the majority of parties

Yea.. i just wanted to mess with her... >>

CapnK - Sanctuary

Question for barbs: The recent skill update added extra Threat to several skills. Did that make a difference in your ability to hold aggro or is it the same situation as before?

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear

CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »

Question for barbs: The recent skill update added extra Threat to several skills. Did that make a difference in your ability to hold aggro or is it the same situation as before?

I, for one, hold aggro pretty much all the time now against any class, on bosses. I'm NOT saying I dont lose aggro, but with my current full nirvana s3 gear + weapon, Im pretty much having an easy time with aggro "mostly" even when the 5.0s spark. (unless the sin's an r9 s3 +!2).
In short, the regular barb aggro skills coupled with "decent" endgame gear helps alot, to barbs. My gear is just +4-5 refined and nirvana s3 wep is just +3 btw, in case if any1 thinks I must be one of the op r9 barbs.

Short random tip to barbs: I've seen most plvled barbs nowadays dont use Devour since it consumes alot of chi. But with recent changes, it now gives a big boost to your aggro. For chi issues, try to keep Beastial Rage always active and include Alacrity of the Beast for bonus chi, besides FR + Devour. Uh..thats it b:bye

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I, for one, hold aggro pretty much all the time now against any class, on bosses. I'm NOT saying I dont lose aggro, but with my current full nirvana s3 gear + weapon, Im pretty much having an easy time with aggro "mostly" even when the 5.0s spark. (unless the sin's an r9 s3 +!2).
In short, the regular barb aggro skills coupled with "decent" endgame gear helps alot, to barbs. My gear is just +4-5 refined and nirvana s3 wep is just +3 btw, in case if any1 thinks I must be one of the op r9 barbs.

No offense but you really havent run with high end squads, which is where the problems come. I got sin with G16 daggers. When those were +10, only barb I saw holding aggro off her was one with N3 +10, in SoT BH boss, where apsing is only harmful.

But then again problem isnt when sin is skill spamming, it`s when it`s apsing. It`s the sparking, which basically doubles dmg per hit, not to mention sin hitting 5 times in second, when barb cant ream once a second. ? level bosses help, but even so, sins do ~10x damage barbs are doing, which is completely broken. I know some R9 str barbs manage to hold aggro off most sins but those are so much more geared than the sins they are out aggroing.

Ps. Part of the problem is how refining works, dps weps got low dph but every wep type refines the same, thus at high refines the different scaling has massive impact.

Edit: Barbs should devour, I agree but it actually is harmful to keeping aggro, unless you got ridiculous amounts of hp and even still I`m doubtful as your aps toons increase their damage by fair % per hit.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Everyone has their own opinions, but self-assumed Know-it-alls like Telarith come here to show their ignorance regarding roles of classes.

Nah, more that it's a continuation of the past ones where barbs thought everyone should be nerfed, with alot claiming they wanted it that way because they didn't know other classes could tank. And due to that, their barb should always be main tank because they didn't know better. Which was pure ignorance.

Rolled BM because I did know class roles, like how the game itself called BMs a tank class. And that it could. Went to all that effort, trying to figure out spark coverage, refine rates, and many other calculations. All that to be undone, because some barbs didn't even read the other classes when they chose? That is what the ignorance vs. knowledge was for; why punish those who did take time learning the actual class roles to reward the ignorant ones who went with perception (and not even reading the class descrips)

And there were plenty who wanted bosses tankable only by barbs, which would be them not knowing class roles.

Honestly, this past thread has some better points and counter-points to boosting aggro than what is here, so might as well just have at reading it. I also voted yes on it.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=789152&highlight=aggro

tweakz

My vote landed in the minority. They don't need more aggro. It wouldn't change what a typical squad can and can't accomplish.

I didn't make a barb to tank: I made it for buffs, then made it capable for handling the needs of BH100s.

The ~5k hp / no def sins that erupt instead of rib / subsea deserve to die and lose the kill. Even in the first year; dd's learned control and restraint. It's part of the game and always has been.

The barb is very useful w/o being the tank. My mystic, wizard, and cleric can tank BH SoT, but not w/o an HP boosting pill or barb buff. My assassins didn't just need Barb buff to tank BH Metal in the past; they also needed the Barb to devour for the extra paint return and attack level reduction. Barbs are also the best equipped to round up a mass of mobs in instances like SoT, and Abaddon for AoE.

There's a lot of jerks that play barbs. Those jerks if given more aggro skills will become even more annoying as they will be even more empowered to KS.

Imagine trying to do Rebirth with a Barb that has mobs stuck to them like glue as they run around pulling mobs from BMs, Sins, mystics, etc. The devs were wise to give sage wizards extra aggro / stun from Dragon's Breath!

Barbs already have by far more skills for aggro than any other class. I'd rather see other classes like Mystic, Wiz, and BM get some.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

yes other classes have a secondary tanking role, but barbs are supposed to be the best tanks by a significant margin. However, bloodpaint combined with ever increasing weapon strength generates so much healing that this is no longer the case.

Therefore i would suggest a very significant bloodpaint nerf. Very significant.....
Then, the barbs would be more needed to tank which imo is a good thing.

Finally, the barbs may have a slightly increased agro generation, but not too much. They should generate slightly more agro than an equally equiped DD and only so if the barb is trying really hard. The barb should not generate so much agro that it is an automatic fact that he has agro, let the barb balance his flesh ream vs devour casting to keep agro against equally equiped DDs. Let the DDs hold back a little if they run with a significantly less equiped barb. Best, the game would add some more skill factor to it by adding agro decreasing skills/equipment or whatever for the DDs. And give the barb some extra agro skills where the skills actually enhance eachother and be better when used together in the right way than separately so its not just flesh ream casting. And giving extra agro creation to devour was unfortunately the worst idea if you want some skill in the game. Unfortunately of course PWI does not want to cater to players who like skills, they cater to players who want to spend $.

tweakz

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

yes other classes have a secondary tanking role, but barbs are supposed to be the best tanks by a significant margin.

They are. HP per vit is much higher, and their defense buffs / true form, control skills are ridiculously good.

However, bloodpaint combined with ever increasing weapon strength generates so much healing that this is no longer the case.

Therefore i would suggest a very significant bloodpaint nerf. Very significant.....
Then, the barbs would be more needed to tank which imo is a good thing.

Also half the clerics would be unwanted because lately their heals are almost unnoticeable. BP has hidden their worthlessness from melee toons. Also; my wiz, mystic, and cleric can tank BH SoT; but my BM and sins can't (unless fast killed). My wiz and mystic can easily tank BH metal while my assassins and bm need barb buffs to do so. Nerfing BP is not a solution.

Best, the game would add some more skill factor to it by adding agro decreasing skills/equipment or whatever for the DDs.

Absorb soul, distributed dd through summons/ pets, amps like subsea, heaven's flame, and amplify damage, - we already have that.

Devs did great job, though I think they made the game too easy. I thought Asian companies dumbed games down for America. An example: why are dd's able to complete BH Aba if they continue attacking the boss during it's buffs?

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

I would love to see an increase in the amount of aggro a Barb can generate. It would really help for certain bosses such as Snakefist in Warsong where you have squishy melee DDs or any hard hitting boss in general.

Liam_ - Sanctuary

What happened to not making the game faceroll and too easy?

A good barb seems to hold agro rather well. I notice it because sometimes I try to steal it on bosses I can take and the barb seems to make a game of it. b:chuckle Or when we have a 9x barb in BH who actually keeps the boss without issue. If a barb can't hold the majority of the agro from standard g13 5.0's on lv150 bosses, they're probably doing something wrong or holding back chi.

Next, a barb genuinely unable to hold agro might teach valuable lessons to those squishy 5k hp sins with +10 zerk/g16 daggers who go all out without rib strike or any genie skills/apoth. Happens in seat all the time and happened in vana and these players really shouldn't be encouraged. Either hold back your damage or refine your armor a little instead of putting hundreds on million into an unnecessarily op weapon.

Also, what happened to holding back damage? Back in the day, a very strong archer taking agro of Pole in bh69 with repeated sparking would have been told to learn their class and how to control their damage. Now the sin gets praised for having a +10 weapon and the squad looks at the boss like it's suddenly become impossible to defeat.

TexanTank - Raging Tide

Liam_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

What happened to not making the game faceroll and too easy?

A good barb seems to hold agro rather well. I notice it because sometimes I try to steal it on bosses I can take and the barb seems to make a game of it. b:chuckle Or when we have a 9x barb in BH who actually keeps the boss without issue. If a barb can't hold the majority of the agro from standard g13 5.0's on lv150 bosses, they're probably doing something wrong or holding back chi.

Next, a barb genuinely unable to hold agro might teach valuable lessons to those squishy 5k hp sins with +10 zerk/g16 daggers who go all out without rib strike or any genie skills/apoth. Happens in seat all the time and happened in vana and these players really shouldn't be encouraged. Either hold back your damage or refine your armor a little instead of putting hundreds on million into an unnecessarily op weapon.

Also, what happened to holding back damage? Back in the day, a very strong archer taking agro of Pole in bh69 with repeated sparking would have been told to learn their class and how to control their damage. Now the sin gets praised for having a +10 weapon and the squad looks at the boss like it's suddenly become impossible to defeat.

Well if the archer pulls aggro (like bh 69) it screws everyone up, if the sin does it you might just have a dead sin or a tank sin that allows the barb to spam devour and speed the run up.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

Everyone is becoming Full g16 or R9RRR. We don't really need barb aggroing anymore as often, NW makes it easier for people to tank more dungeons now.

tweakz

Toomaga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I would love to see an increase in the amount of aggro a Barb can generate. It would really help for certain bosses such as Snakefist in Warsong where you have squishy melee DDs or any hard hitting boss in general.

So squishy melee dd's should have no challenge whatsoever? They should be able to erupt -> derpa derpa with 3k hp and +12 weapon?

KrittyCat - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

So squishy melee dd's should have no challenge whatsoever? They should be able to erupt -> derpa derpa with 3k hp and +12 weapon?

They can do that now with Bloodpaint.

In other words, this suggestion would change nothing about the current state of the game, other than make it easier for squads with a strong DD to actually take down hard bosses more quickly.

I honestly don't see the problem with doing that.

The only other option would be to reduce the amount of healing from Bloodpaint... but the outcry if that were to happen would be horrendous.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Flesh Ream always should have been time based aggro skill, regardless of damage being dealt by others, now that skill is pretty much useless, on a side note, if they made it time based, we would see more and more +11 + 12 weapon people and +3 or less on other gear.