Dear people of my squads: From a frustrated EP...

Didn't wanna post but... frankly I agree completely with Saku here.

Even back in 08/09 before we all had access to the ability to be overgeared, I always felt the "tank" was the person who could hold aggro and survive taking damage with heals best. In most cases, due to gear at the time, that was the barb... but there were still plenty of times where you had no barb or a DD was able to survive well enough and dealt enough damage that there was no need for the barb to try to keep aggro. And even then we had bosses that Barbs themselves knew to defer to other classes for, Mantavip with wizards, for example, so it wasn't exactly a foreign concept to have a tank that wasn't the Barb.

Letting the tank do the tanking only applies when the supposed DDs can't actually survive even with heals. However a smart and well geared character is all you really need to tank anything in this game. And that's without getting into Rank 8/Nirvana/R9 gear and +10 and up refines where you'll literally laugh off PvE content regardless of the class you're on.

Can't agree with Bella more! So true about any class tanking bosses is fine, as long as they can handle to tank!

And to the OP, ik ping pong aggro sucks. I used to hate it and ask people not to do that, but as I play, I learn I'd have to deal with that as the current gears people have are outrageous. I do understand your frustration bout squishy ppl pulling a bunch of mobs from start to boss though.

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame.

Well the same can be said that if the DD is a good DD they should be able to control their dmg output.

I have major issue with this one. Doesn't matter how good of a DD I am if I'm using a +10-+12 weapon and can't actually.. ya know... do anything because it would make me rip aggro before you can say "stop standing there and hit boss".

Same with when the tank is genuinely bad at keeping aggro or flat out doesn't spam aggro skills and thus even WITH holding back massively aggro still goes your way.

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

Xx_BeLLa_xX

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame.

Well the same can be said that if the DD is a good DD they should be able to control their dmg output.

With a DD that cannot survive more than 2 shots from the boss I agree, but for a sin/DD that can survive if healed than they don't have to control it, it's your role to have reflex and switch target to heal.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

This. There are some barbs on my sin that I could take aggro from using a bow because they are useless. Just like not every death is the cleric's fault, it's not always the sins fault either. And it seems a bit silly not to squad with them just because of something like that.

I used to do that in BH69s. I didn't want aggro on my BM. I could tank but only with clerics that were fast on the purify and most were just bad.

So I'd unequip blessing... get aggro.
So I'd unequip -int wrists... get aggro.
So I'd unequip fists... get aggro.

I wanted to keep attacking so I had chi for MSS when the boss debuffed, and HF to boost squad dd, but I had half my gear unequipped to prevent aggro swapping but it was more dangerous then because I had less hp and defense so it was just much easier to say "I'll tank" and put all my gear on and full out dd. Then the rest of the squad could dd, too.

I think we're being hard on the OP because there are sins out there that just plain suck. I know one who's wife FCC'd him to 100 and farmed him G16 -int fist and had 4.5k hp. He could rip aggro from r9 sins but had no idea how to play his class and no defenses to take even 1 hit, but also wasn't smart enough to avoid aggro. So there is both problems out there, bad sins who don't know how to protect themselves and their squads, and bad cleric's who don't know how to adapt to adverse situations or growth in PWI. My knee jerk reaction when I hear someone complain about someone else is usually "and were you also doing something wrong?" since miscommunication is where most problems occur.

I think the OP needs to play a sin. I've pointed out that my sin gets waaaay more heals from paint than from a cleric, but cleric's are useful for their buffs, shields, debuffing, damage reduction of bb, and heals in times where I'm not attacking like being stunned or teleport in cooldown and I'm away from the mob. I my clerics out there and see it from their point of view but they don't see it from a sins point of view always.

For instance, don't heal me if I haven't aoed. If I run out, aggro 15 mobs and am about to die but haven't aoed and you heal me and die, that's your fault. Most sins will triple spark for the heal and immunity prior to aoeing but clerics get jumpy and start healing, which moves the mobs off the cleric, which then has to chase them. Most cleric's blame the sin for not aoeing but even as a cleric I know its my fault for healing them.

Also, if a sin has boss aggro and is taking alot of damage the cleric needs to stack stack stack them with IH before they can slow down. They're using their heals to survive and slowing down their damage might kill them. In some situations its been me stopping to rib strike or use Focused Mind that has gotten me killed since I stopped apsing and stopped getting as much heals, even though I was trying to be defensive.

Sometimes you got to see it from their point of view.

Heya OP.

Whats with all the sin hate?

Its one of the most useful PVE classes, thats why there are so many of them.

I have a top level sin, and this cleric as well (plus another demon cleric I gave up on after making this sage one). By duo clienting I learned to understand how to keep assassins alive.

Edit: I assume an average level of gear, and an average weapon (which is hard to say what that is now, but it used to be, +10 g13 or g15, or r9 +10). Aka, they are getting heals that mostly recover the damage they take. I understand the rules are different as you level from 1-99, but you aren't of that level range so its not relevant I think.

Its fairly easy.

Scenario:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss is doing over half hp of sin every hit

Solution: BB


Scenario 2:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss isn't doing much damage to sin

Solution: debuff boss and dd. put Wings of Protection and Vanguard Spirit onto sin if his hp approaches half, which shouldn't ever happen. Wellspring Surge if sins hp still isn't back to full after a second or two.

Scenario 3:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss doesn't do much damage, but does certain debuffs which spike the damage sin is taking

Solution: You won't be able to purify fast enough to avoid sin taking one hit with debuff in, so safest bet is a nice macro including purify, ironheart, and vanguard spirit. I throw in spirit's gift into mine to make it consume less mana.

---

Sins heal more than a cleric can heal, its true, from bloodpaint. Waaaaaay more. But they also take high damage. Thus the best way to heal a lot of sins isn't heals so much as it is shells and defense increasing skills. If you are sage, vanguard spirit every 10 seconds; if demon, stream of rejuvenation. Wings of protection.

Lest we forget: in ye olde days, tanks used to die. Your heals weren't as strong back then, remember. One advantage when healing an assassin is the fact that, because of his low hp, you can usually heal him to full in one or 2 quick heals of Wellspring Surge.

---

Scenario:

-sin tanking something suddenly has hp shoot to nearly zero.

Solution:

-wings of protection first, always.
-follow up with wellspring surge, usually 2 or 3 of them. this buys enough time for sin to possibly triple spark, or use genie, or apoths, or whatever
-use vanguard spirit (if sage), then ironhearts; if demon, stream of rejuvenation, then ironhearts

Which, interestingly enough, is surprisingly similar... to how a cleric heals people in TW! Fancy that.

Cheers,

Aeliah

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think the OP needs to play a sin. I've pointed out that my sin gets waaaay more heals from paint than from a cleric, but cleric's are useful for their buffs, shields, debuffing, damage reduction of bb, and heals in times where I'm not attacking like being stunned or teleport in cooldown and I'm away from the mob. I my clerics out there and see it from their point of view but they don't see it from a sins point of view always.

For instance, don't heal me if I haven't aoed. If I run out, aggro 15 mobs and am about to die but haven't aoed and you heal me and die, that's your fault. Most sins will triple spark for the heal and immunity prior to aoeing but clerics get jumpy and start healing, which moves the mobs off the cleric, which then has to chase them. Most cleric's blame the sin for not aoeing but even as a cleric I know its my fault for healing them. .

I agree that it helps understanding a person's role in squad by actually playing that toon. But I strongly disagree with the last part. A tank's job is to take aggro so others can do their job. Not just to absorb the damage. If you cannot handle aggro, you should not be taking it. It is completely 100% your fault if a cleric dies from healing you because you did not attempt to get aggro and could not handle it. There are somethings that are the clerics fault, but there are some things that are the DD fault as well. That is one of them.

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

You know, not a bad idea. I understand the original six and the mystic. I know how to provide support to them and not worry. Maybe I do need to roll a sin and see. (just gonna do it on a pve server because I'm not going through the 30-80's again having to look over my shoulder. lol

Just like it's really noticeable when a cleric is fail, it also noticeable when a sin is fail. Because it usually involves the squad getting messed up by them stealing aggo and then promptly dying. But still, that's not reason not to squad with sins you do not know. They are a lot of sins and knowing that they need may help you to better heal them.

Sorry OP. You rolled a cleric which means you take the responsibility of keeping your whole squad alive. You should understand how aggro works by now, if you do then you wouldn't have a problem switching heals to other people in squad, normally barb takes a aggro for a few secs then sin or which ever r9 dd, you should be able to predict where aggro goes, if not then start observing. If a sin is 1-2 shot then oh well that isnt your fault, leave the sin till boss is almost dead then res, if they blame you tough luck dont stress about it. Its only a game

I understand OP's bad sin experiences from a barb view. I am not a complete vit build barb - I have more str and dex less vit than average tank build and I am also demon hence I lack HP but do high hits and keep aggro from sins MOST OF THE TIME. However I cannot keep aggro constantly from 5 aps +6 or higher / T3 / r9 sins. USUALLY these sins last the few secs I need to take aggro back but I have also seen many who die in 2 hits. When they are told to do damage control if they can't tank their response is " no, me DD, you are all pussies, I give all I got and I DD, barb's/cleric's fault "