Dear people of my squads: From a frustrated EP...

SkogDyr - Lost City

This is to guildies, non guildies, noobs and vets...

You wonder why you die? You ask where are the heals? You yell save me save me yet I am not there at your side? You say I'm not a healer but a metal mage?

Want to know why you are saying that? Cause;

You are an APS DD not a tank. BP is only so good and doesn't replace a cleric. Let the barb tank okay?

CHB is okay in certain situations but I'd rather use my IH to save the tank. Agro pong is not fun and can get the squad wiped.

Clerics are slow runners. We don't have true form or teleports. We depend on Holy Path and apoth to keep up with you. Don't go lure all the WS mobs from start point to boss and expect us to keep up.

I can laugh with you about stupid stuff. I make mistakes like the rest of you. I've hit wrong buttons and had oh **** moments... however, if you die, don't point at me and call me a MM. If you do, you better have a lot of pots and your blessed BP cause I will go into MM mode and you can heal yourself.

This isn't to single out anyone just a friendly reminder to be nice to your EP or you can go kiss our IH, purify and BB goodbye. b:bye

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Cleric QQ thread ~>What do people do that pisses you off or annoys you in your squad.

I pissed a cleric off yesterday when I was on my barb. My friend was making the BH Aba squad and it was him, myself, and a cleric in squad. I hopped into Aba, traded buffs with the cleric while my friend WCd, and did a large pull up to the first stunning mobs around the water, then doubled back towards the cleric. My friend watched me running and running and shouted "Too large of a pull! You don't have bloodpaint!"

To which I responded "I have a cleric, thats almost as good." It went fine. I invoked, bestial raged, Sunder->arma'd, cloud erupted so I could triple spark purify the poison off, Surfed, aps'd, triple sparked again to purify after most were dead.

Then the cleric got huffy with me about how "bloodpaint was not substitute for a cleric" and I thought about how much more heals I would have gotten if I'd had bloodpaint instead of cleric heals.


Anyways, to the OP.... You're level 100. Anyone can tank anything Barbs were the solo tanks 3 years ago when they were the only people with about 12k hp. Yes, we've all been in squads with stupid sins and its frustrating, but most of us have adapted. Keep an IH on the sin even if they don't have aggro (yet). Ask the barb to stop reaming and devour instead, then the sin will a. get more bloodpaint heals and take less damage as devour reduces attack levels also, or b. get aggro and die and you can rez when the boss is almost dead. Both solve aggro ping pong.

I sympathize with you on the attitudes that are out there. Take them in stride and realize these are desk-chair warriors that don't matter beyond a keyboard and a "block" button.

I spent a long time balancing and fixing and changing my genie... 99.5% of its use is Holy Path or Cloud Eruption. I have enough vit/magic that I can do 2 Holy Paths and have a 3rd one a few seconds later. Also, raid your base for the speed apoths that are cheap enough. If they go farther than the 34 seconds of 15 m/s this can bring, **** them. They can double back to you or die, they know its their fault.

SkogDyr - Lost City

Sakubatou, I understand what you are saying but why not let tanks be tanks and DD be DD. Too many people power frosted stabby fish during the "special feature that shall not be named" was allowed to go on. Other classes, including EPs, got a taste of APS and the taste of blood was too much. TBH, I refuse to squad with sins unless I'm helping a guildie. I don't care if you can kill a boss fast. I care that I don't have to hold your hand and waste MP so you can whip out your little knives and whack your weasel at 5.0. Psys and wizzies have learned to tone down the dmg to be proper DDs... if glitcher twitchers can't, then they will die. I'm not going to make the barb's charm tick just to save some APSer. If I can revive you before the boss dies... great. if not, sucks to be you.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I still believe that WBs are supposed to be the tanks. Sure sins can do their meth twitch of death, seekers can do their Wonder Woman twirl and BMs can be stabby fish wannabees... but a kitteh is a kitteh and no one is going to out barb a barb.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

Sakubatou, I understand what you are saying but why not let tanks be tanks and DD be DD.

Efficiancy? Versatility? Safety? Entertainment?

If a sin can tank, let them. Let the barb devour and frighten so the aoes aren't as strong and the rest of the squad takes less damage.

Personally, I play 7 characters and I know a good sin has much more reliable aggro from DD than a barb has from FR. So my archer/wiz/bm are much safer being DDs if a sin is tanking because they won't pull aggro, but they might from a barb and that might kill people.

Its alot of fun to figure out ways to do things without a specific class. Not every squad needs a barb, or a cleric, or a sin. Pulling FCC on a cleric is fun. BH59 is an opportunity for AAs to out tank a barb. If a 25k barb can't figured out how to pull more than 1 group of mobs in seat I'll show him how on my 7.5k hp sin. If I don't feel I can tank something, I'll gladly yield to a barb because I know how to work together.


Wow, so much misguided hate. Yah, some people gooned up. Most did not. Many did not and still suck and there are healers that can't even keep sins alive. Many did and still figured out how to play their class. Most the gear you wear is probably been farmed by "glitcher twitchers (?)" but you're gonna avoid the class like its a character selection problem. BMs can be "stabby fish wannabes"? BMs and aps were here 2 years before sins were, aren't they copying BMs? Sounds like you're in the "I can't heal you unless you have 30k hp" club.

opkossy

Didn't wanna post but... frankly I agree completely with Saku here.

Even back in 08/09 before we all had access to the ability to be overgeared, I always felt the "tank" was the person who could hold aggro and survive taking damage with heals best. In most cases, due to gear at the time, that was the barb... but there were still plenty of times where you had no barb or a DD was able to survive well enough and dealt enough damage that there was no need for the barb to try to keep aggro. And even then we had bosses that Barbs themselves knew to defer to other classes for, Mantavip with wizards, for example, so it wasn't exactly a foreign concept to have a tank that wasn't the Barb.

Letting the tank do the tanking only applies when the supposed DDs can't actually survive even with heals. However a smart and well geared character is all you really need to tank anything in this game. And that's without getting into Rank 8/Nirvana/R9 gear and +10 and up refines where you'll literally laugh off PvE content regardless of the class you're on.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

I don't really like sins, but I don't refuse to squad with them, but if they do something stupid that would put me in danger if I heal or w/e than I let him die.

I think more than 75% of the people are sin now so since it's the class the most play there's a lot of people that don't know play it.

The other day in a BH59 with only level 7x people the sin was pulling groups of mobs without AOE, the mystic healed him so the mystic got all mobs on him and died than after that all died.

Nvm your class if you want to pull groups of mobs do a f***** AOE or don't expect heals from cleric/mystic.

I don't kill myself for other people stupidity. I'll try to save them ofc cause it's my job, but if for sure that gonna kill me than too bad I don't.

No need barb anymore to pull or tank, but for pull if no one AOE cleric/mystic can't heal cause everything will go on him.

For boss now every class take aggro on barb cause the Dears Dev are too stupid to upgrade the barb skill for aggro, cleric/mystic need too deal with it, it's what make them better, healing a barb is not hard, but not challenging as well.

BUT DD that cannot handle to tank should learn to DD less, on my mystic I needed to learn to never 3 sparks on any boss cause I was getting aggro on everything, barb, 5 APS people, but wasnt able to handle to tank boss so was dying, so I learned to don't 3 sparks since that steal aggro on everything (and some people say mystic DD suck Mwuhahaha).

For the ws part about people pulling from start to boss, well deal with it and use pots cause now more and more people do that.

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame. A barb don't need a constant IH to tank a boss, trow him 2-3 IH than trow 2-3 IH to someone that might take aggro than barb and again the potentiel aggro stealer, what that will do is if the aggro stealer get aggro he will already have IH stack and that will give you time to switch to fully IH that person. CHB is the dumbest heal to use if someone steal aggro it's too slow, keep people IH and wellspring if needed. Just use CHB on a AOE boss where you don't BB, when everyone need heal, someone time I see cleric CHB while there's no AOE...

SxeChik - Archosaur

Can't agree with Bella more! So true about any class tanking bosses is fine, as long as they can handle to tank!

And to the OP, ik ping pong aggro sucks. I used to hate it and ask people not to do that, but as I play, I learn I'd have to deal with that as the current gears people have are outrageous. I do understand your frustration bout squishy ppl pulling a bunch of mobs from start to boss though.

SkogDyr - Lost City

Sakubatou

Most the gear you wear is probably been farmed by "glitcher twitchers (?)"

naw, just a lot of HHs, hence 101 and been here for 4 years.
My Mystic was gooned but I never use him except to ruin stabby fish fun in sp with me plants. b:chuckle


BMs and aps were here 2 years before sins were

Yes but before BP, BMs still acted as part of a team.


Sounds like you're in the "I can't heal you unless you have 30k hp" club

Nope, just rather have someone who isn't going to roll over and croak when a boss AOEs just cause they can't read boss buff icons.


Xx_BeLLa_xX

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame.

Well the same can be said that if the DD is a good DD they should be able to control their dmg output.

keep people IH and wellspring if needed

I agree 100% unless you have 4 DDs, not controling agro, and just going for a quick kill and not a controled kill.


I just ran a couple WS today that went great. The team knew their jobs and no deaths. No serious agro pong and everyone did what they were supposed to when they were supposed to.

opkossy

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame.

Well the same can be said that if the DD is a good DD they should be able to control their dmg output.

I have major issue with this one. Doesn't matter how good of a DD I am if I'm using a +10-+12 weapon and can't actually.. ya know... do anything because it would make me rip aggro before you can say "stop standing there and hit boss".

Same with when the tank is genuinely bad at keeping aggro or flat out doesn't spam aggro skills and thus even WITH holding back massively aggro still goes your way.

ovenusarmanio

OPKossy wrote: »

I have major issue with this one. Doesn't matter how good of a DD I am if I'm using a +10-+12 weapon and can't actually.. ya know... do anything because it would make me rip aggro before you can say "stop standing there and hit boss".

Same with when the tank is genuinely bad at keeping aggro or flat out doesn't spam aggro skills and thus even WITH holding back massively aggro still goes your way.

This. There are some barbs on my sin that I could take aggro from using a bow because they are useless. Just like not every death is the cleric's fault, it's not always the sins fault either. And it seems a bit silly not to squad with them just because of something like that.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

Xx_BeLLa_xX

If you are a good cleric you will be able to deal with the ping pong aggro, if you can't than you are the one to blame.

Well the same can be said that if the DD is a good DD they should be able to control their dmg output.

With a DD that cannot survive more than 2 shots from the boss I agree, but for a sin/DD that can survive if healed than they don't have to control it, it's your role to have reflex and switch target to heal.

SkogDyr - Lost City

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

TBH, I refuse to squad with sins unless I'm helping a guildie.

Venus, it's not that I won't squad with a sin just I'm not going to squad with one I don't know. You saw the sin population explosion a while back. You had to notice that a majority of them went from 1-100 in a matter of a few days.

There are a few who I trust. A few who I know understand not only their class but the other classes as well and can adjust their playstyle accordingly.

I guess my first post was a vent due to a couple of really bad runs and every failure was blamed on the EP (me) and another player. TBH, it wasn't meant for people to agree or disagree. Read it, skip it... up to you.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

This. There are some barbs on my sin that I could take aggro from using a bow because they are useless. Just like not every death is the cleric's fault, it's not always the sins fault either. And it seems a bit silly not to squad with them just because of something like that.

I used to do that in BH69s. I didn't want aggro on my BM. I could tank but only with clerics that were fast on the purify and most were just bad.

So I'd unequip blessing... get aggro.
So I'd unequip -int wrists... get aggro.
So I'd unequip fists... get aggro.

I wanted to keep attacking so I had chi for MSS when the boss debuffed, and HF to boost squad dd, but I had half my gear unequipped to prevent aggro swapping but it was more dangerous then because I had less hp and defense so it was just much easier to say "I'll tank" and put all my gear on and full out dd. Then the rest of the squad could dd, too.

I think we're being hard on the OP because there are sins out there that just plain suck. I know one who's wife FCC'd him to 100 and farmed him G16 -int fist and had 4.5k hp. He could rip aggro from r9 sins but had no idea how to play his class and no defenses to take even 1 hit, but also wasn't smart enough to avoid aggro. So there is both problems out there, bad sins who don't know how to protect themselves and their squads, and bad cleric's who don't know how to adapt to adverse situations or growth in PWI. My knee jerk reaction when I hear someone complain about someone else is usually "and were you also doing something wrong?" since miscommunication is where most problems occur.

I think the OP needs to play a sin. I've pointed out that my sin gets waaaay more heals from paint than from a cleric, but cleric's are useful for their buffs, shields, debuffing, damage reduction of bb, and heals in times where I'm not attacking like being stunned or teleport in cooldown and I'm away from the mob. I my clerics out there and see it from their point of view but they don't see it from a sins point of view always.

For instance, don't heal me if I haven't aoed. If I run out, aggro 15 mobs and am about to die but haven't aoed and you heal me and die, that's your fault. Most sins will triple spark for the heal and immunity prior to aoeing but clerics get jumpy and start healing, which moves the mobs off the cleric, which then has to chase them. Most cleric's blame the sin for not aoeing but even as a cleric I know its my fault for healing them.

Also, if a sin has boss aggro and is taking alot of damage the cleric needs to stack stack stack them with IH before they can slow down. They're using their heals to survive and slowing down their damage might kill them. In some situations its been me stopping to rib strike or use Focused Mind that has gotten me killed since I stopped apsing and stopped getting as much heals, even though I was trying to be defensive.

Sometimes you got to see it from their point of view.

SkogDyr - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think the OP needs to play a sin.

You know, not a bad idea. I understand the original six and the mystic. I know how to provide support to them and not worry. Maybe I do need to roll a sin and see. (just gonna do it on a pve server because I'm not going through the 30-80's again having to look over my shoulder. lol

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Heya OP.

Whats with all the sin hate?

Its one of the most useful PVE classes, thats why there are so many of them.

I have a top level sin, and this cleric as well (plus another demon cleric I gave up on after making this sage one). By duo clienting I learned to understand how to keep assassins alive.

Edit: I assume an average level of gear, and an average weapon (which is hard to say what that is now, but it used to be, +10 g13 or g15, or r9 +10). Aka, they are getting heals that mostly recover the damage they take. I understand the rules are different as you level from 1-99, but you aren't of that level range so its not relevant I think.

Its fairly easy.

Scenario:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss is doing over half hp of sin every hit

Solution: BB


Scenario 2:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss isn't doing much damage to sin

Solution: debuff boss and dd. put Wings of Protection and Vanguard Spirit onto sin if his hp approaches half, which shouldn't ever happen. Wellspring Surge if sins hp still isn't back to full after a second or two.

Scenario 3:

-sin has high damage and has aggro
-boss doesn't do much damage, but does certain debuffs which spike the damage sin is taking

Solution: You won't be able to purify fast enough to avoid sin taking one hit with debuff in, so safest bet is a nice macro including purify, ironheart, and vanguard spirit. I throw in spirit's gift into mine to make it consume less mana.

---

Sins heal more than a cleric can heal, its true, from bloodpaint. Waaaaaay more. But they also take high damage. Thus the best way to heal a lot of sins isn't heals so much as it is shells and defense increasing skills. If you are sage, vanguard spirit every 10 seconds; if demon, stream of rejuvenation. Wings of protection.

Lest we forget: in ye olde days, tanks used to die. Your heals weren't as strong back then, remember. One advantage when healing an assassin is the fact that, because of his low hp, you can usually heal him to full in one or 2 quick heals of Wellspring Surge.

---

Scenario:

-sin tanking something suddenly has hp shoot to nearly zero.

Solution:

-wings of protection first, always.
-follow up with wellspring surge, usually 2 or 3 of them. this buys enough time for sin to possibly triple spark, or use genie, or apoths, or whatever
-use vanguard spirit (if sage), then ironhearts; if demon, stream of rejuvenation, then ironhearts

Which, interestingly enough, is surprisingly similar... to how a cleric heals people in TW! Fancy that.

Cheers,

Aeliah

GhostHealer - Heavens Tear

After reading this whole thing, I have come to the simple conclusion that the OP is a lazy cleric and doesn't like sins.

I'm glad you're not on my server. b:bye

ovenusarmanio

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think the OP needs to play a sin. I've pointed out that my sin gets waaaay more heals from paint than from a cleric, but cleric's are useful for their buffs, shields, debuffing, damage reduction of bb, and heals in times where I'm not attacking like being stunned or teleport in cooldown and I'm away from the mob. I my clerics out there and see it from their point of view but they don't see it from a sins point of view always.

For instance, don't heal me if I haven't aoed. If I run out, aggro 15 mobs and am about to die but haven't aoed and you heal me and die, that's your fault. Most sins will triple spark for the heal and immunity prior to aoeing but clerics get jumpy and start healing, which moves the mobs off the cleric, which then has to chase them. Most cleric's blame the sin for not aoeing but even as a cleric I know its my fault for healing them. .

I agree that it helps understanding a person's role in squad by actually playing that toon. But I strongly disagree with the last part. A tank's job is to take aggro so others can do their job. Not just to absorb the damage. If you cannot handle aggro, you should not be taking it. It is completely 100% your fault if a cleric dies from healing you because you did not attempt to get aggro and could not handle it. There are somethings that are the clerics fault, but there are some things that are the DD fault as well. That is one of them.

SkogDyr - Lost City wrote: »

You know, not a bad idea. I understand the original six and the mystic. I know how to provide support to them and not worry. Maybe I do need to roll a sin and see. (just gonna do it on a pve server because I'm not going through the 30-80's again having to look over my shoulder. lol

Just like it's really noticeable when a cleric is fail, it also noticeable when a sin is fail. Because it usually involves the squad getting messed up by them stealing aggo and then promptly dying. But still, that's not reason not to squad with sins you do not know. They are a lot of sins and knowing that they need may help you to better heal them.

opkossy

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I agree that it helps understanding a person's role in squad by actually playing that toon. But I strongly disagree with the last part. A tank's job is to take aggro so others can do their job. Not just to absorb the damage. If you cannot handle aggro, you should not be taking it. It is completely 100% your fault if a cleric dies from healing you because you did not attempt to get aggro and could not handle it. There are somethings that are the clerics fault, but there are some things that are the DD fault as well. That is one of them.

Gonna disagree on this one because Saku was using an example where you pull -> spark -> AoE but the cleric heals too early and takes aggro as a result. Granted, a bit of communication would have probably avoided the problem to begin with, but that's how things are.

If after the spark they didn't AoE and weren't planning to at all, then yes it's the fault of the puller. Especially if they didn't communicate at all during or before it. But in this example, it's just a case of jumping the gun on healing.

SkogDyr - Lost City

OPKossy wrote: »

Gonna disagree on this one because Saku was using an example where you pull -> spark -> AoE but the cleric heals too early and takes aggro as a result. Granted, a bit of communication would have probably avoided the problem to begin with, but that's how things are.

If after the spark they didn't AoE and weren't planning to at all, then yes it's the fault of the puller. Especially if they didn't communicate at all during or before it. But in this example, it's just a case of jumping the gun on healing.

Yeah, I've jumped the gun before and threw an IH or WSp before the puller aoe'd. One run was due to my num hotkeys getting messed up.

What Kossy said was paramount I think... I remember doing caves, esp frost, where the barb and I would talk before and let me know how much each pull and where to set up the BB. (door vs boss) That was a year or two ago. lol I'm used to being able to glance at a kitteh's gear and be able to tell how much they could take before a charm tick. With sins and seekers, can't tell too much. IMHO there are a few sins who I have pretreated with IH, then used WoP, and VS and they still wipe during a pull.


Aeliah, thanks for some great suggestions. As for BB... at some bosses, yes. But I hate to use BB when some DDs decide to go out of range and forget that BB isn't mobile. lol Also, I like to help by debuffing when I can and throwing a pure when needed.

GhostHealer, yup I don't care for sins. As for the rest of your assumptions... coad basement dweller.

ovenusarmanio

OPKossy wrote: »

Gonna disagree on this one because Saku was using an example where you pull -> spark -> AoE but the cleric heals too early and takes aggro as a result. Granted, a bit of communication would have probably avoided the problem to begin with, but that's how things are.

If after the spark they didn't AoE and weren't planning to at all, then yes it's the fault of the puller. Especially if they didn't communicate at all during or before it. But in this example, it's just a case of jumping the gun on healing.

b:surrender Yeah didn't see that last part. I just seen this advice many times before and the BM/sin doesn't aoe at all, ever. And just derpapses single mobs and that is annoying. I dont' really care if you get more heals from BP doing single targets. Don't tank if you can't handle aggro. It's a problem with a lot of sins.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

Sorry OP. You rolled a cleric which means you take the responsibility of keeping your whole squad alive. You should understand how aggro works by now, if you do then you wouldn't have a problem switching heals to other people in squad, normally barb takes a aggro for a few secs then sin or which ever r9 dd, you should be able to predict where aggro goes, if not then start observing. If a sin is 1-2 shot then oh well that isnt your fault, leave the sin till boss is almost dead then res, if they blame you tough luck dont stress about it. Its only a game

KingClawX - Lost City

who dosent liek sin anyways hehe i know i dont much....

what i dont get is the whoel charm **** in frost for say 100+ barb lol

pot genie lol wtf about this charm thing and lol ppl getting angry at there charm getting ***** then why do you have one in the 1st place.

only time i have charm is for nw on frost lolz biggest joke i ever heard.


and on the part where barb only keep agro for a few sec wtf u been smoking wtf is with all this vit barb acting like just cos there agro suck rest have same issue damn vit barb noobs.

go pull a cata and stay out of the whoel combo we all know ur agro suck lol.

Colum - Raging Tide

I understand OP's bad sin experiences from a barb view. I am not a complete vit build barb - I have more str and dex less vit than average tank build and I am also demon hence I lack HP but do high hits and keep aggro from sins MOST OF THE TIME. However I cannot keep aggro constantly from 5 aps +6 or higher / T3 / r9 sins. USUALLY these sins last the few secs I need to take aggro back but I have also seen many who die in 2 hits. When they are told to do damage control if they can't tank their response is " no, me DD, you are all pussies, I give all I got and I DD, barb's/cleric's fault "