Nation war and needed changes

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · January 2013

On the spawn killing issue...

There are certain skills that allow players to stun or indeed do damage through immunity. I've been spawn camped to the point where I'm still in immunity when someone kills me.

Sometimes, if a specific person does it to me, say a Sin, if I manage to surprise them and kill them near the spot where they respawn, I'll do it back to them. However, I don't spend an entire match just spawnkilling people.

I've also noticed that the spawn killing is really bad in the first part of NW, usually the first 30 minutes, then it seems to slow down. Towards the end of NW, I typically never get spawn killed.

I personally prefer to leave recently spawned players alone; it's really frustrating getting killed while buffing yourself, waiting for some skills to CD, or whatever, so unless it's happening rampantly, I tend not to do it myself.

Amy_Acer - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

the enemy was able to pick the flag time and time again, untouched.

i fixed your post... carry onb:bye

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

On the spawn killing issue...

There are certain skills that allow players to stun or indeed do damage through immunity. I've been spawn camped to the point where I'm still in immunity when someone kills me.

Sometimes, if a specific person does it to me, say a Sin, if I manage to surprise them and kill them near the spot where they respawn, I'll do it back to them. However, I don't spend an entire match just spawnkilling people.

I've also noticed that the spawn killing is really bad in the first part of NW, usually the first 30 minutes, then it seems to slow down. Towards the end of NW, I typically never get spawn killed.

I personally prefer to leave recently spawned players alone; it's really frustrating getting killed while buffing yourself, waiting for some skills to CD, or whatever, so unless it's happening rampantly, I tend not to do it myself.

I normally just leave those that have respawned alone till they can get out of the spawn area but sometimes i end up trying going after someone that had just respawned. so normally i try to avoid things like that.

OMarvelous - Sanctuary · January 2013

Amy_Acer - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont stand there waiting for anything. By the time my screen loads the timer has either ran out or i have 2 seconds to try to run from whatever sin is standing there waiting to kill me.

As far as needing a genie i laugh LOL! We didnt always have genie's... reminds me of FF yesterday when the cleric deemed himself useless to the squad and bailed cuz his genie was dead...

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Speaking from personal experience, you're wrong. I've been in situations where just a friend and I have gone in to reinforce a losing battle. We've been able stop flags that were about ready to score that would have ended the battle and then either manage to score ourselves or hold the line until more reinforcements could arrive. These fights provided some of my best scores and I look forward to more like them.

I've also been in fights where I was part of a group of 20, that was getting massacred by an outnumbered enemy. I couldn't wait for people to get farmed out of my team, since somehow, even when outnumbered 3 to 1, the enemy was able to pick the flag time and time again, unmolested. Defense was left to just a few of us who somehow managed to keep stopping the flag carriers. My side was filled with people who were of little use, and no new help was possible since our team was maxed at 20. Eventually our side lost, almost due to the enemy scoring 10 points for flag picking, they were at 19 when they finally capped a flag for the win.

I can also attest to this. Personally for me, I'll spawnkill a bit if im in the area, only to stop myself from being killed. And I'm usually only in that area im escorting the flag or clearing a path for flag carrier because as I've stated before...to cap the flag you need to run past the enemies spawns. Seems people forget that.

And regarding the PC thing, I don't have the greatest PC..its 5+ years old and has only been upgraded a little bit since that time (motherboard limitations). I need a new one, and I load slow in some areas, lag in others...have to have my distances way down iN TW and such, but I don't complain. I dont think the game mechanics needs to be changed because my PC isn't good enough...that's just ridiculous. Get a better PC, end of story.

ovenusarmanio · January 2013

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Speaking from personal experience, you're wrong. I've been in situations where just a friend and I have gone in to reinforce a losing battle. We've been able stop flags that were about ready to score that would have ended the battle and then either manage to score ourselves or hold the line until more reinforcements could arrive. These fights provided some of my best scores and I look forward to more like them.

I've also been in fights where I was part of a group of 20, that was getting massacred by an outnumbered enemy. I couldn't wait for people to get farmed out of my team, since somehow, even when outnumbered 3 to 1, the enemy was able to pick the flag time and time again, unmolested. Defense was left to just a few of us who somehow managed to keep stopping the flag carriers. My side was filled with people who were of little use, and no new help was possible since our team was maxed at 20. Eventually our side lost, almost due to the enemy scoring 10 points for flag picking, they were at 19 when they finally capped a flag for the win.

I'm speaking in general. I've been in far more flag walks where reinforcements never came and got things going than in ones that got turned around on both ends. It just doesn't happen nearly as often and the reason is that people tend to avoid lost causes and go for battles with more contribution or move in attempt not to get stuck in base. It wouldn't even be memorable to you if it was a common occurrence. Most of the time when given the choice people are going to go to the battles they think they can win. The battles I've enjoyed the most is when people coordinate with each other. I've had people whisper me to x or y instead of going "ew a level 71," and been able to help them out with stuff. Me and this one sin kept a barb locked long enough for our flag carrier to grab the flag instead of him, run the wrong way, cap the flag, and then have the flag reset. We left him alone since we knew we couldn't kill him once it reset. He then whispered me complaining about being locked. "Oh you and your buddy kept me locked up real good. You should've been trying to kill the flag carrier," he got real quiet when I told him my level. I had never even met the sin before. It's just was a sin smart enough to work with the fact that a stun is stun instead of writing me off as useless. I've helped out plenty of clerics before too with control skills until they could kill the enemy. The attitude of not working together is just that, an attitude problem not a game mechanic problem. You want good battles, then make it happen. You have no one to blame for you low contribution but yourself if you're spawn camping. It's annoying to the other side and prevents the type of battle you described.

@Marvelous

That's not camping the spawn. Nobody is saying you can't kill anyone there ever. Spawn camping is when an entire nation uses their speed skills to rush to a spawn point and then proceeds to farm people they second they spawn until they are ported out. It makes the battle go faster but lowers the overall personal contribution of all involved since longer battles net more points. It does help nation score wise though since you can move towards a base and lock it, and the more territories your nation capture the more credits you get in the end.

Valirah - Sanctuary · January 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

@Marvelous

That's not camping the spawn. Nobody is saying you can't kill anyone there ever. Spawn camping is when an entire nation uses their speed skills to rush to a spawn point and then proceeds to farm people they second they spawn until they are ported out. It makes the battle go faster but lowers the overall personal contribution of all involved since longer battles net more points. It does help nation score wise though since you can move towards a base and lock it, and the more territories your nation capture the more credits you get in the end.

Just to clarify, I don't camp spawns either, there are other things my time is better spent on. I will clear out any newly spawned enemy when escorting a flag or when returning from a capture, but I won't linger.

I tend to disagree on the idea that farming out people is a good idea for a quick win. If anything it just drags things out longer. Perhaps these people think farming out nubs will get them big scores, but I'd much rather get the no contest battle over with and find a real challenge, with real points to earn.

Orouhimie - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Yes coordination is what wins battles, Also though something i would like to add is that if you can buff someone and they ask you to please buff them. Ive been in many fights where there were venos and clercs that i would ask to buff me and they would just ignore me and walk away. Buffing the people in your nation really helps out......

Valirah - Sanctuary · January 2013

Orouhimie - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes coordination is what wins battles, Also though something i would like to add is that if you can buff someone and they ask you to please buff them. Ive been in many fights where there were venos and clercs that i would ask to buff me and they would just ignore me and walk away. Buffing the people in your nation really helps out......

Seems like a no-brainer, but, well, people are stupid.

OMarvelous - Sanctuary · January 2013

You'll note I said spawnkill, not spawncamp. I'm quite aware of the differences, thank you!

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seems like a no-brainer, but, well, people are stupid.

buffing ppl in your own nation does help alot specially to those that are below lvl 100 gear. so how can you say that people are stupid when the vast majority of players who are in nws, like to get least cleric buffs and bramble if possible. i know it helps me alot specially if im against a sin, bm, other archers, or casters. Its not stupidity if one wants buffs from someone else in their own nation, then they'll ask for it from that person. if one nation cant do what it normally does, than there is something wrong with the whole thing and its not just peoples stupidity either. its peoples ignorance of the fact that alot of the players want buffs before heading out to battle. plus if you and others like to state that the battles are just too short thats your problem not those that want a challenge by making fair play.

Spinner_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

I'm a little confused actually about what everyone is actually moaning about here... Spawnkilling or R9's being up there own as**s?

I will put it to you as simple as this, Spawnkilling is not an issue until you come across r9+12 people... Other than that you should be able to atleast tank enough damage to get away once the immunity wears off.

I've come up with a simple solution and so have many other faction members when we get spawncamped by r9+12 derpers, we press the M button go back to base and find another battle. No points for them, My charm is not wasted and i can go do something more productive than being a tab target.

So what if you lose 1 land, go take another and then you have not lossed anything...

You all need to take a step back and look at what your all saying. You people defending spawnkilling/camping are being ****'s(it's not nice killing lvl 30's in Pk so don't think it's acceptable to do it to lvl 100 TT90 geared players) and start being a little nicer to your tab targets, and you people complaining about it should think too. Your complaining about them being selfish for wanting more tokens but what's the reason behind you doing Nw? Don't even tell me for the "fun" because after 1 week it get's repetitive and slowly getting dull due to same map/target each week.

It is a farming instance, treat it as one. Want more tokens? Just copy what r9's are doing and you'll have nothing to complain about but your tiny bit of self dignity will be slightly torn.

*awaits the flame*

OMarvelous - Sanctuary · January 2013

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

buffing ppl in your own nation does help alot specially to those that are below lvl 100 gear. so how can you say that people are stupid when the vast majority of players who are in nws, like to get least cleric buffs and bramble if possible. i know it helps me alot specially if im against a sin, bm, other archers, or casters. Its not stupidity if one wants buffs from someone else in their own nation, then they'll ask for it from that person. if one nation cant do what it normally does, than there is something wrong with the whole thing and its not just peoples stupidity either. its peoples ignorance of the fact that alot of the players want buffs before heading out to battle. plus if you and others like to state that the battles are just too short thats your problem not those that want a challenge by making fair play.

Man, you really are dense, just stop posting. He's saying that he agrees with buffing people in your nation. That it would seem like a no brainer i.e....obvious to people to buff people in your nation as it goes the distance to helping you win, but most people in fact...do not do this making them generally stupid.

Colum - Raging Tide · January 2013

I think people don't think these issues widely enough, rather get stuck in details and forget the whole picture.

1. Spawn killing

Of course it's annoying but is this PWI's fault? No. Spawn killing is a winning tactic. Poor tactic but a tactic nonethless. Players do it to make the battle faster so they can move to next land or go defend areas near their base so they won't get baselocked which is IMO far worse than being spawnkilled. You can always run away from spawn points and GET A DAMN CHARM if you dont want to spawn with little HP. Run off, buff yourself somewhere safe and go push enemy back from your spawn points. Distract the enemy. Heavy armor classes can go annoy the spawnkillers while squishies can nuke them down. It's not that hard.

And to be honest I do not understand how someone even stands playing with such laggy spawning as some people complain it to be... Also keep the damn quality low. You are fine without it.

2. Base locking

I don't see this issue as PWI's fault either. It is PLAYERS who plan the base lock, not PWI. It is a tactic, again. To avoid base locks players of the same nation need to interact, ask for reinforcements, warn others of strong squads and send their strongest against them, keep their aras hold together and not spreading too widely, and players remembering to go back near base to defend areas that are closest to it.

3. r9-players

And you are telling me all r9 players are playing in NW in all seriousness just to win with their nation? No. Ive seen many r9 vs r9 squads fight in the middle of map while you can just go and grab the flag and watch out you don't run straight to their sight. They don't care, they just kill anything that comes close and go all west gate PK.

Maybe change your flag carrying tactic. Instead of charger orb run harder ways and when you see opponent near enough you you can use violent triumph + ironguard as a barb and run safely with immunity for a while or use invoke and then shadow binding powder to run fast, take less hit and be immune to movement debuffs etc..

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

On the spawn killing issue...

There are certain skills that allow players to stun or indeed do damage through immunity. I've been spawn camped to the point where I'm still in immunity when someone kills me.

This is what I find both confusing and upsetting. Normally, as a charmed barb, I have plenty of time to run away when I spawn and a group of the opposition is waiting for me. But lately I have been spawning and, through the yellow immunity bubble I can clearly see, people have managed to immobilize me.

Has anyone else been experiencing this? I'm not sure if maybe it is somehow related to lag, but I generally have no issues with lag during NW so I don't see how it could be.

And on the topic of spawn camping... it is poor sportsmanship, but it isn't cheating. For people that say they are doing it just to farm out the lesser geared individuals, that is BS. A well-geared R9 can be taken out too if the whole nation is there waiting for him/her, and no distinction is made. If you were truly interested in an engaging battle, you'd stand on equal ground and let them come out buffed and recovered.

But it will always happen, and there isn't anything that can be done about it. Even if they made a safe zone rather than the immunity period, the opposition would just stand outside the safezone waiting for you to leave. I think perhaps they should just increase the immunity time so that you can get away a little easier, especially with some people loading slower. Or add a temporary speed buff with the immunity, as someone suggested.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Spinner_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

You all need to take a step back and look at what your all saying. You people defending spawnkilling/camping are being ****'s(it's not nice killing lvl 30's in Pk so don't think it's acceptable to do it to lvl 100 TT90 geared players) and start being a little nicer to your tab targets, and you people complaining about it should think too. Your complaining about them being selfish for wanting more tokens but what's the reason behind you doing Nw? Don't even tell me for the "fun" because after 1 week it get's repetitive and slowly getting dull due to same map/target each week.

The problem with your analogy is... there is no level 30s out there aiming to kill me. On the flip side, I won't have problem killing level 1s, if there is one out there thats aiming at me. My example... BM's roar max out at level 60 something. So it doesn't matter if i get roared by a tt60 ax or by +12 stage 3 r9 ax... its going to have the same effect. I am going to be stunned there looking like an idiot. Same logic applies to sleep/hf/amp/purge/seal. Doesn't matter what level they are coming from... its all the same effect. I am not going to waste my time going out of my way to kill them (as there are better things to do), but I am not opposed to pop a few if they are in my way... else risk interference when I am doing some pk that actually counts.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And on the topic of spawn camping... it is poor sportsmanship, but it isn't cheating. For people that say they are doing it just to farm out the lesser geared individuals, that is BS. A well-geared R9 can be taken out too if the whole nation is there waiting for him/her, and no distinction is made. If you were truly interested in an engaging battle, you'd stand on equal ground and let them come out buffed and recovered.

Sure... I'll wait for them to come out buffed... if they are coming out 1 by 1. I am full r9... and I got killed by 300 damage before. When you stack enough sin/bms apsing at you... it actually hurts.

Nymphali - Dreamweaver · January 2013

-Should spawn with 100% hp.
-Should be able to use skills in nation base (so you can rebuff or spare **** meats by using your class healing skills).
-Should be unable to use speed apothecaries and speed buffs while carrying the flag.
-A cleric should get points for buffing/healing allies.
-Battle duration should be lowered from 15 minutes to 7 minutes, so more battles could occur in less time.
-Territories captured close to enemy nation base shouldn't gain protection.
-3 minutes protection should be reduced to 1 minute.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · January 2013

Here is a simple solution, have a new buff. 200% reflect damage, magic or melee. You get it when you spawn, stays with you until you die. Happy NW b:victory.

If you truly hate spawn killing. Next time you are in a fight 20 vs 1~12, say it in common chat, do not spawn kill. Repeat it every few minutes. If you see someone doing it, call it out along with their faction name. That is what i do. People often will thank you for saying something like that on either side.

Rerum - Sanctuary · January 2013

Base locking is broken and it needs to be addressed, I suggest increasing the allowed number of defendant to 40 in all lands close to base. b:laugh

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2013

Nymphali - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-Should spawn with 100% hp.

would you like platinum fries with that too?

-Should be able to use skills in nation base (so you can rebuff or spare **** meats by using your class healing skills).

i think this is actually a nice idea...

-Should be unable to use speed apothecaries and speed buffs while carrying the flag.

You can.... >.>;; only the genie cant

-A cleric should get points for buffing/healing allies.

they do

-Battle duration should be lowered from 15 minutes to 7 minutes, so more battles could occur in less time.
-Territories captured close to enemy nation base shouldn't gain protection.
-3 minutes protection should be reduced to 1 minute.

that might rack up the challenge, in a good way

Liam_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Base locking is the only real issue I have. I'm a two shot to any good r9r, but I haven't had any serious problems with spawn killing yet, and OP players is just how PW rolls and I can live with it. The fact OP gear even exists gives free players an illusion of an end goal to work for and keeps us all playing anyway.

But base locking is frustrating. Doesn't really matter how well you play and try to communicate with your nation, you can't change others and there has to be a losing nation. You might as well roll a dice when you enter the war and if you hit 4, you're the unlucky nation who doesn't get to fight and gets half tokens.

Maybe they should add a system where if one nations base is completely locked on all sides, players in the base can bypass battles and travel to, and attack, any area belonging to the winning nation (unless they clicked return to base after the lock). That way, the war is kept pretty even at all times, adding challenge to maintaining a lead.

Jabella - Heavens Tear · January 2013

I dont see apo as a problem at all.. Now squads, yes.

Entering with a full R9 squad even though it doesnt hurt your chance of getting tokens as an individual, it hurts it as a Nation. Since the strongest one will get the most contributions.

Apo could stop being use if people would let classes as barbs, venos or Bms carry the flag: normally letting a cleric carry it will lead to a waste of time since on top that they have low defenses, they cant run fast. Unless you're an R9 cleric which in that case, you shouldnt be carrying the flag but DDing your *** off. LOL.

So anyways, it would be good to disable the squads for NW. It would give other low lvl or low geared players the opportunity to enjoy without their gears getting on the way.

b:thanks
~Jabella

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · January 2013

I agree spawn killing sucks, I think the immune to dmg needs to be just a couple seconds longer and you should spawn completely full of health/magic.

With the holy path at grabing the flag and the run fast skills, and the apth run fast....It is simply too much. If you can't get your genie to work why should your potions work? It doesn't make sense from a lore perspective even.

Yeah the base locking really sucks, however the new bigger map should fix it. Even without it, I suspect that time will fix it. I have so far noticed that say the red land will go after the white land and base lock them...meanwhile the green land is busy setting up a baselock for red. Often times now I am seeing it go clockwise or counter clockwise in a swirl pattern. At some point the powers that be will decide that base locking over extends thier power and decide to stop using it as a tactic as much as they currently do. Taking a few lands at a time and securing them is a much better goal for overall points.

Breannak - Raging Tide · January 2013

Did they change the NW rewards thingy? I ask because today I got 4300 in personal credits and 25 tokens. Usually i get about 42/43 in tokens.

@Person above me. I just leave and head back to base when they spawn kill, so lame.
(Don't Feed Just Leave).

OontzOontz - Dreamweaver · January 2013

In the end people are just lazy. Frost has too many lands and is too hard to base lock them, so they go for flame instead since it's the one with least land. As long as they don't get last place is all that matters to everyone.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Breannak - Raging Tide wrote: »

Did they change the NW rewards thingy? I ask because today I got 4300 in personal credits and 25 tokens. Usually i get about 42/43 in tokens.

@Person above me. I just leave and head back to base when they spawn kill, so lame.
(Don't Feed Just Leave).

No, your nation must have done terrible to get that low. I got 4.6k contri and 83 tokens, my nation won.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

Breannak - Raging Tide wrote: »

Did they change the NW rewards thingy? I ask because today I got 4300 in personal credits and 25 tokens. Usually i get about 42/43 in tokens.

@Person above me. I just leave and head back to base when they spawn kill, so lame.
(Don't Feed Just Leave).

It's normal if you wasn't in the winning nation.

Star_Prism - Archosaur · January 2013

I think I might have an idea on how to fix not only spawn killing but people putting alts in. In NW there are 3 spawn points, the one is that platform in the middle. (please read whole idea before you start picking, thank you)

They should make that platform bigger and have that be the only spawn point. On that platform you can not be attacked, nor can you attack others. You have 60 seconds to stay on that platform when you enter/respawn so you can buff yourself, regain HP/MP and charge up genie (one NPC should be moved to that platform so people can get buffs when entering).
But after the timer is up and you have not left platform you are sent back to base. And to prevent people to be running back to platform if they are outnumbered you can only get onto the platform when you have that 15 second protection bubble on you. It kind of works like a key. (Not allowed to get on enemy platform, only your own)

This will help with spawn killing because the spawn killers will now be at a disadvantage because the people coming off the spawn point will have full health and buffs. It also makes it very hard to be keeping alts in battle as people will have to constantly check to see if their alts have been killed/sent back to base. The hassle will not be worth the reward for most. Alts stuck at base don't get points because they are not in the battle.

One solution to fix two problems.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

Star_Prism - Archosaur wrote: »

I think I might have an idea on how to fix not only spawn killing but people putting alts in. In NW there are 3 spawn points, the one is that platform in the middle. (please read whole idea before you start picking, thank you)

There's more than 3 spawn points in NW.

Telarith - Sanctuary · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

There's more than 3 spawn points in NW.

Should be at least 5 I've noticed. The platform, the two under trees, and then 2 more further out from those. Even when it's 20 vs 3, the 20 will be spending alot of time hunting them down if they don't spawn in the main 3.

Star_Prism - Archosaur · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

There's more than 3 spawn points in NW.

That's right there is 4. I forgot that there are two spawn points in front by the trees. Then the platform and the one in back by the water make 4. As many times as I die in NW, you'd think I'd be able to remember that. b:chuckle

Nation war and needed changes

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