Nation war and needed changes
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Alondark - Heavens Tear
Posts: 71 Arc User
Ok a lot of people are raging about nation war and some stuff that happens during it, base lock unbalanced nations etc etc. 1st of all i would like to say it is a nice system but there are a few major changes that i think need to be passed onto CN. The 1st change that needs to take effect is that NW should be made like Coa in that you should not be able to enter as a squad but have to go in solo and then squad up with ppl you know once in, This makes it to where Op squads cant be formed and get into one nation which is severly pushing the favor in 1 or another nations direction. The 2nd change that should be implemented is that either the maps need to be made bigger or you cant use apoth while carrying the flag. Theres has been way to many times when the flag carrier has picked up the flag and ran it straight to the capture area with no opposition becuase classes like bm/archer can use speed skill then apoth and you cant stun them or keep up with them in order to kill them. Im sure theres other things they could do if anyone else can think of any put it here and plz no raging/trolling this thread.
Post edited by Alondark - Heavens Tear on
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There's already a map "expansion" coming.
As for apoth, the counter-argument to that is, just beat the opposition to the flag and keep an eye on where the flag might spawn or is currently at. Think of it as an....added challenge.
As for squading, we can probably be fine without. The only QQ I can imagine is you can't guarantee to be with friends.
Also, add paragraphs for easier reading. b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I agree with disabling the ability to enter as a squad. However, I don't think Apothecary should be disabled while holding the flag. The moment its been picked up, the carrier will have allies and enemies alike closing in on their location (and for the latter, at least a few will be waiting on the pathway to intercept the carrier).
Surely either the group chasing that individual or anyone waiting ahead can CC them inbetween Apoth/Skill cooldowns? (unless they're derping around kill-farming the other side instead of focusing on the flag...)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Remember: OP may be a duck|OP/GMs/Devs may not deliver|Search function is your friend|Lurk more|Be wary of Mods: they can't be trusted|This place isn't a hugbox|Your tears sustain me|Know what Bait is|"Soon" may never come|Postcount, Dubs, and other GETs are important|Don't revive long dead threads|There is a section for everything|You can be banned for anything|No Fun Allowed outside of OT|Sweetiebot rules OT|"Circlejerks" are inevitable|Threads can be derailed and saved|Those who use"XD" should off themselves at their earliest convenience|0 -
I agree with Alondark 100% here. Arranged squad have too much advantage in a war where everyone is suppose to be anonymous and work together with differnt folks. Apo pots should be disabled on flag carrier. Btw Arranged squad is the primary reason why there's even a base lock in the first place. Who can stop 2 squads of 10x r9s3? They will just base lock and farm the shi.t out of all the lowbies/undergeared random folks that rush in to attempt to repeal their base lock. b:chuckle0
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yuanfen999 wrote: »I agree with Alondark 100% here. Arranged squad have too much advantage in a war where everyone is suppose to be anonymous and work together with differnt folks. Apo pots should be disabled on flag carrier. Btw Arranged squad is the primary reason why there's even a base lock in the first place. Who can stop 2 squads of 10x r9s3? They will just base lock and farm the shi.t out of all the lowbies/undergeared random folks that rush in to attempt to repeal their base lock. b:chuckle
Personally, I think it would be easy to bypass a "no squading rule" before Nation Wars. A simple shout in World Chat or Faction Chat once inside would fix that. Also remember, truly random doesn't mean it can be fair still, you can have all the top geared people land in the same nation and still dominate.
As for apoth, I really don't see it as an unfair advantage. It just means you have to be more wary of when the flag spawns and who gets it. I've see many flag holders that use apoth die once a small handful of players got him/her. If a flag holder goes unnoticed and scores points, that lands on the opponent not doing anything. Plus you have classes that have natural speed buffs/advantages too.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Don't know about other servers.. but at least on lc we have more than 1 or 2 op squads. And they are randomly subdivided into every nation. You can see best full JoSD, full +12, full R9 3rd cast toons/squads in losing and winning nation. Every battle can be imba, classes are imba (but it's way better now with all the skill updates), single player vs single player can be imba. But the whole nw isn't. On friday on lc server map looked like this after a few minutes. We lost in light nation almost all lands abit later and got locked. But guess what... Light came back, conquered more than half of the map and flame had just 2-3 lands at the very end.
1h later it could have been the other way arround again.0 -
If you're base locked, I get there quite a few times every week, it's because the players in your nation haven't looked at the weak points on your nations area to protect. You have to think a be in war.
Very few squads stay together as the delay getting into a territory lets others in before all a squad can get there. So, I don't see an issue with going in with friends.
I also have issues with R9's at times. However, squading can help with that if you are together, say 3+ on 1 R9
Rewards are much faster than Nirvy runs, so save up and improve your weapon and gear. That helps more than wanting to nerf a war.
b:bye0 -
Boartracker - Raging Tide wrote: »If you're base locked, I get there quite a few times every week, it's because the players in your nation haven't looked at the weak points on your nations area to protect. You have to think a be in war.
Very few squads stay together as the delay getting into a territory lets others in before all a squad can get there. So, I don't see an issue with going in with friends.
I also have issues with R9's at times. However, squading can help with that if you are together, say 3+ on 1 R9
Rewards are much faster than Nirvy runs, so save up and improve your weapon and gear. That helps more than wanting to nerf a war.
b:bye
I agree with everything said here.
By now, probably safe to say that a majority of players experienced being base-locked, or being in a nation that was base-locked while in some far off fight.
From my experience, its very easy for a squad to fragment due to being slow or instance full.
Also, r9 isn't really seen as that....OP. Yes, you can argue r9 full+12 can be hard, but any class with full +12 will be, and would need tactial strategy to take down. Even someone who is full +12 G16 Nirv would be a bit hard to manage.
Lastly, Nation Wars significantly increases the pace that one can gear up in. G16 Nirvana is very easy, and it can still dent up anyone. Some have even gotten r9 from scratch, from selling off their rewards with a average of 100 tokens or so a battle from when the very first war happened, on HT at least.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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main thing i have to complain about is variety. All battle grounds are the same which imo makes it alittle boring. There needs to be a ton of different battle ground types with different lay outs and not allways straight forward. (Heck would be pretty cool to have an all under water or all flying battle ground hmm maby even a battle ground with a few of those hand things that are in TT but they would move around). Should be a min of atleast 20 different kinds. Also just so the same area doesnt allways have the same battle ground make it so when a battle starts the battle ground type is randomly chosen from the different types.Collector of pet eggs, armor, weapons, fashion, and mountsb:chuckle0
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NW is so much more about strategy than gear. I don't agree at all with the OP's complaints.
I go with the same squad every NW, and we do incredibly well through team work.
We aren't full r9 or +12, we just know what we are doing. Whenever flag respawns we have a couple ppl at each spawn point. When it appears, we call it out and rush to that portion of the map.
The object of each battle is to capture the flag. Even if someone is full +12 r9 JoSD, we can still use control skills to prevent them digging and prevent them from chasing or killing our flag carrier.
If worse comes to worse and better geared people are at the flag, hell, we aren't above antistunning and iron guarding to dig the flag. Even if we die immediately, we got the flag and they didn't.
If someone strong on the other side gets the flag we don't chase behind them. We take.a direct route and get ahead of them. Then we do everything in our power to slow their *** down until we can get together and gank them.
No battle is lost until you give up and start making excuses for yourself about why it is impossible.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I also disagree with disabling the squad before enter. I go with a squad with no r9s3s and we do pretty well (each class gets about average rewards for their class/gear most wars). First of all, if that whole squad of r9s is base-locked, they can't do much and their better gear won't help them get into any wars.
Second, many times I have had the luck to enter the same nation as a lot of OP players, so in that sense it's a lot about the luck of the draw. You can't complain you're at a 'disadvantage' in that regard. I've often been happy to land in a nation with lots of OP players, and EVEN when that happens, we don't always win.
I like having the control of entering with friends whom I play a lot with and I know that we have good teamwork, because we are on skype or vent and I do a lot better as a cleric when I'm in an instance with many squad members who are watching my back while I heal/buff/sleep people and sometimes kill when the other side isn't uber-geared.0 -
I don't think disabling entry squads will make the war more balanced between the nations but it will get rid of battles where a squad of R9s one shots everyone until they reach the five death limit and get kicked out. That will make things more fun and won't really affect the amount of supply tokens the R9s get. All the R9s want is to get recast mats and that won't take them long wether they squad up with other R9s or not. But not having to face a six man squad of OP toons will make the battles more fun for the rest of us.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Alondark - Heavens Tear wrote: »Ok a lot of people are raging about nation war and some stuff that happens during it
1. There will ALWAYS be someone raging about something.Alondark - Heavens Tear wrote: »base lock unbalanced nations
2. The base territory for each nation should simply be moved away from the map edge by 1 territory (so as to not be touching the edge). This should decrease, not completely rule out mind you, a nation getting base locked.Alondark - Heavens Tear wrote: »NW should be made like Coa in that you should not be able to enter as a squad but have to go in solo and then squad up with ppl you know once in
3. NW should ABSOLUTELY be done in the same manner as CoA in regards to entrance and squading.Alondark - Heavens Tear wrote: »maps need to be made bigger or you cant use apoth while carrying the flag. Theres has been way to many times when the flag carrier has picked up the flag and ran it straight to the capture area with no opposition because
4. This is called people need to stop trying for personal points by just killing everyone (which I do also go for these points, but I also... ), and actually flip back to the map and pay attention to offense / deffense grabbed the flag messages, as well as KNOW which color you are and which color opposition is, and position yourself to the side which your opposition will attempt to achieve their goal. This needs no corrections except in the players themselves.
...and PS : most of whom are against the CoA type of entrance in NW are themselves 101 + or hidden behind faceless avatars (probably also 101+)... hmm... R9's themsleves? lol yeah... let it be written... let it be done...
PSS : I would say the same thing if I was 101+ and R9 and still in a tw faction (as i know thats alot of who oppose this)... so instead of getting 200-400 supply tokens, they would more likely get 100-300 tokens, and more tokens would reach those who are obviously having issues getting any (ie. token distribution would become more distributed)... This change wouldnt effect me at all except reduce the chances of my own facing off with r9 squads which kill me quite quickly... my own tokens would not likely even be effected by this CoA-type change at all... And god forbid the tw factions have to re-think their strategies from tw squads based more on improvising and dealing with various class-compositioned squads... lol... this might even fix the wc's we see for specific weapon/gear ranks and classes needed, and make everyone better all around players... b:chuckle
So the reality is 2 changes : CoA-type entrance and move the bases away from wall...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
imo maps shouldnt b bigger or w/e, would be unfair to any classes (like clerics) who dont have any runskills
why a cleric would pick up the flag? well, ive seen it the last few nation wars, when i was in a territory with random ppl, no1 even thought about killing the flag carrier and just went for kills
i also consider it a good idea to disable going in with squads, as for already mentioned reasons
what would also be great is to tell us how exactly one gets contributed, seeing as it seems to be bugged or real unfair in the first place
ive been doin nw with different classes so far
when i was in with cleric one time, i had 6k con and didnt get any tokens at all, with a message saying my fighting score was low (hello, i killed several ppl and was spamhealing like mad??) and i didnt win any battles (won at least 17 out of 20 territoriesi was in, but oh well..)
the other day, i had barely 3k con and got 50tokens, altho i was mainly afk doing nothing cos of being locked in base
see any logic in that? if yes plz tell me, cos i dont xD
whats also kind of unfair is the way u get assigned to nations
it seems as if the better ur gear/refine, the higher ur lv, etc, the more likely it will be u get assigned to the loser nation (happened the last 6 times i went in alone)
imo, rewards should b contributed different, not sure which way would be fair, tho
prolly the more con u got, the more tokens u get
no different amount of tokens rewarded due to ranking of ur nation at least0 -
imo, rewards should b contributed different, not sure which way would be fair, tho
prolly the more con u got, the more tokens u get
no different amount of tokens rewarded due to ranking of ur nation at least
IF... and this is a BIG IF... If the tokens are about 60,000 tokens, and total nations credits are lets say 800 points... if each nation had 200 points, each nations people should get 15,000 tokens dividied up between them... all the the contribution points SHOULD be added up and = that 15,000 tokens in the same way... then based on your personal contributions points versus the total, tokens should be alotted... I dont think pw has it done this way, or even someone with under 600 personal points would get at least 1 token... which i think they SHOULD... this way a level 60-84 has a reason to even bother with this event at all... it seems until you reach 85 tho... and have op gear at level... you have no chance to do anything but give ME points ... i dont see this as fair for the lil people... they sjould have this divided up right...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I don't see speed apoth as a problem at all. I use it on my barb when I am carrying the flag and can still be taken down easily by people who are actually paying attention and not just pking others for points. Quite often a group of the opposition will take me out before I can even get out of the pit, or are waiting for me on the island. It's just strategy.
And there is nothing stopping you from using holy path + speed apoth of your own to cut them off. Flag carriers can't use holy path.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Annalyse (veno) - Melosa (cleric) - Glynneth (archer) - Pickerel (sin)
Florafang (wiz) - RubixCube (barb) - Laravell (psy) - Diviah (Mystic)
Torchwood (BM) - Sataea (Seeker) - Wystera (Sin) - Allissere (SB)
Looking for a mature faction on HT? pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=7608420 -
Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »....this way a level 60-84 has a reason to even bother with this event at all... it seems until you reach 85 tho... and have op gear at level... you have no chance to do anything but give ME points ... i dont see this as fair for the lil people... they sjould have this divided up right...
I dunno about that, I've done NW twice so far, and having done everything in my power (heal, buff, attack, die) I've still come out with tokens. I don't have op gear, but I do have well sharded (for my level) and at least +2 gear.
From what I can tell, you get points for just about anything. Buffing people, healing, attacking, killing, taking damage, dying, capping flag, being in winning territories. As a lowbie, I don't actually get any kills, but I am quite good at dying! b:laugh
In the few NW I have been able to participate in, I've realized that people I stop and take the time to buff/heal/help remember me, and in turn they do the same when I run into them again. It all comes down to team work.
I would also like to say I disagree with disabling going in squaded. I like going in with my friends, even when I do get separated from them. Because I know there is that little bit of chance of running into them again, I know that they are going to stop and take the time to help if possible when I run into a sticky situation. Honestly, if they changed that, I would not do NW; regardless of my level or gear.0 -
NW has to be one man only entrance.
People who are against this.. i see trough you.We will add r9 they said... it will be fun they said...0 -
Asyniia - Archosaur wrote: »I dunno about that, I've done NW twice so far, and having done everything in my power (heal, buff, attack, die) I've still come out with tokens. I don't have op gear, but I do have well sharded (for my level) and at least +2 gear.
From what I can tell, you get points for just about anything. Buffing people, healing, attacking, killing, taking damage, dying, capping flag, being in winning territories. As a lowbie, I don't actually get any kills, but I am quite good at dying! b:laugh
In the few NW I have been able to participate in, I've realized that people I stop and take the time to buff/heal/help remember me, and in turn they do the same when I run into them again. It all comes down to team work.
I would also like to say I disagree with disabling going in squaded. I like going in with my friends, even when I do get separated from them. Because I know there is that little bit of chance of running into them again, I know that they are going to stop and take the time to help if possible when I run into a sticky situation. Honestly, if they changed that, I would not do NW; regardless of my level or gear.
NW is a replacement for NV and NV ran only 100lvl+We will add r9 they said... it will be fun they said...0 -
Pre-squading allows friends to play with friends, what a horrible thing in a game rife with "squad" instances that are routinely solo-ed. Seriously, this game needs MORE content that rewards cooperation, not less. CoA style random squads put a serious damper on being able to communicate since common voice chat becomes all but impossible.
Those QQing about balance and fairness are actually complaining about being weak and unorganized. Friday I squaded with a single other person and we both had some of our best scores yet. We were often out numbered and never had an "OP" mega squad on our side, but we managed to play smart and win every battle except 1, at the end, where it was just the 2 of us against 20.0 -
yes but ur way to selfish like that.
ooh bu i like to play with friends even tho they happen to be the biggest cash shopping friend in game.
one r9 +12 is enough but a 10 man party of r9 +12 is waay much worse and this is why we say we want it to be solo.
you can still join with ur friends if you happen to land in same faction as ur friend.
but we do not want these big cash shopper to get there 10 man party with zero effort.
if you wana team with ur friend in party like this go tw its alredy broken this way.
remove joining in party alredy like i do cos its more fun to join a party in a nation with a tad of randomness.0 -
Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »Pre-squading allows friends to play with friends, what a horrible thing in a game rife with "squad" instances that are routinely solo-ed. Seriously, this game needs MORE content that rewards cooperation, not less. CoA style random squads put a serious damper on being able to communicate since common voice chat becomes all but impossible.
Those QQing about balance and fairness are actually complaining about being weak and unorganized. Friday I squaded with a single other person and we both had some of our best scores yet. We were often out numbered and never had an "OP" mega squad on our side, but we managed to play smart and win every battle except 1, at the end, where it was just the 2 of us against 20.
you are so full of ****, you can do tw with your friends it doesnt bother me, but when your ''friend'' squad locks me in base cuz in one nation there are more ''friends'' then in other, i cant farm my stuff while your ''friends'' get even richer.We will add r9 they said... it will be fun they said...0 -
Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »Pre-squading allows friends to play with friends, what a horrible thing in a game rife with "squad" instances that are routinely solo-ed. Seriously, this game needs MORE content that rewards cooperation, not less. CoA style random squads put a serious damper on being able to communicate since common voice chat becomes all but impossible.
Those QQing about balance and fairness are actually complaining about being weak and unorganized. Friday I squaded with a single other person and we both had some of our best scores yet. We were often out numbered and never had an "OP" mega squad on our side, but we managed to play smart and win every battle except 1, at the end, where it was just the 2 of us against 20.
Also don't forget the developers in China designed NW to be a cross server event which means you'll meet people who you've never met before in the instance so squads were a way to ensure some degree of teamwork0 -
LosTEscape - Lost City wrote: »you are so full of ****, you can do tw with your friends it doesnt bother me, but when your ''friend'' squad locks me in base cuz in one nation there are more ''friends'' then in other, i cant farm my stuff while your ''friends'' get even richer.
Um, too bad?
Besides, you're just as likely to be on the same side as these "OP" squads as against them. It's random. Random =/= even or balanced. Make the most of the hand you're dealt.0 -
Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »Um, too bad?
Besides, you're just as likely to be on the same side as these "OP" squads as against them. It's random. Random =/= even or balanced. Make the most of the hand you're dealt.
The thing is, majority of people wants one man entrance and it wont make thing worse.
Too bad if you want to get more kills and tokens with your ''friends''We will add r9 they said... it will be fun they said...0 -
I agree that people should not be able to squad before entering. On our server about an hour before NW starts you will see people WCing for squads. Most of these people are asking for 100+ or R9's. And it does create an unfair advantage if several of these groups happen to end up in one nation.
As a lower level it makes it less fun for me to play. If I end up in a battle against a bunch of R9's, they one shot me every time and I'm out of the battle in only a few minutes. But it also makes it less fun the other way. If I end up in a battle with several OP geared players on my side, then I can't do anything because they one shot everyone before I can even cast 1 skill. I actually end up with more points when I'm going against higher levels (by taking damage) then by having them on my side. Not only do I not have the chance to attack anyone, but because the opponents are being killed off so quickly they aren't attacking me.
And another thing I noticed is by allowing people to enter in squads certain nations have more players than others. On Friday's NW our nation had over 30 more players than any other nation. By having more players in allows you to engage in more battles. I'm guessing the system doesn't look to see if you are in a squad before placing people and that is how certain nations end up with way more people than others.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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LosTEscape - Lost City wrote: »The thing is, majority of people wants one man entrance and it wont make thing worse.
Too bad if you want to get more kills and tokens with your ''friends''
It won't make it much better either. You'll just change your complaint to "QQ, there are too many random R9 OP squads, I still suck". You'll still get super squads, the best geared tend to run in similar circles and will likely squad together.
You want better scores? Gear up, coordinate, learn to play.0 -
Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »It won't make it much better either. You'll just change your complaint to "QQ, there are too many random R9 OP squads, I still suck". You'll still get super squads, the best geared tend to run in similar circles and will likely squad together.
You want better scores? Gear up, coordinate, learn to play.
Now this is just excuses to keep your squad and keep rollin over everything.
You are wrong, one man entrance will make thing better, well not for people like you, you will probably earn less tokens cuz you will not be able to roll over every land.We will add r9 they said... it will be fun they said...0 -
LosTEscape - Lost City wrote: »Now this is just excuses to keep your squad and keep rollin over everything.
You are wrong, one man entrance will make thing better, well not for people like you, you will probably earn less tokens cuz you will not be able to roll over every land.
I dunno about you, but I earn my own tokens. I might run with friends, but I hold my own because I've sharded and refined my gear, I've leveled up my skills to their proper level, and I earn my own tokens. It cost a pretty penny, but I can hold my own. And really, you get contribution for everything, it ain't the gear that gets you contribution it's actually doing something. You get it from self-buffing, you get from buffing nation members, you get it from attacking, and killing, and you get it from taking damage, and even dying. You get it from being in winning territories.
If your baselocked its because your nation didn't pay any attention to it's defense. You siege the castle to blockade supplies; same mechanics work here. If you leave your base open to attack, your gonna get baselocked. It's the name of the game.0 -
I would rather be able to squad with my friends, but I understand why it would please people more to remove squad-entrance in favour of single-entrance only.
If they do make it single-entrance, I'd hope that they'd include enemy names showing up instead of blank as it is now.
It won't do anyone any good anyway IF people don't work together.
Time and time again I see people pking and ignoring supporting/stopping the flag carrier, then wondering why their nation loses.
Perhaps I get less contribution than some people because they spend more time pking, but overall, I would rather -win- the war and get more tokens due to that, then get mediocre reward for good contribution but losing the war.
To me it seems the nation that wins seems to have better coordination in battles than necessarily being stacked with too many op people.0 -
LosTEscape - Lost City wrote: »Now this is just excuses to keep your squad and keep rollin over everything.
You are wrong, one man entrance will make thing better, well not for people like you, you will probably earn less tokens cuz you will not be able to roll over every land.
Perhaps you missed it it your rantings. This last Friday I was in a squad of 2 (TWO) and scored my highest contribution yet. Pre-squading offers some advantages, but it is hardly the most important component of doing well. The majority of squads break up as time goes by anyway, ending up little different than your proposed solution of random squads.
Stop pointing the blame at others. You didn't do well due to luck of the draw and your own competence/incompetence, not pre-squading.0
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