In response to the N3/R9 thread...

Alenta - Lost City · December 2012

I was going to post this in the other N3/R9 thread but it closed before I could submit. Here is the R9 gear of the Mystic and here is N3 AA gear with a G16 wand (no bonuses added) and good endgame ornaments. Both sets have +10 refines (except the rings) and no shards.

Why R9 is better:
- more def lvls
- higher crit rate

Why N3 is better:
- higher base mag def
- higher base mag. atk and closer dmg range
- slightly higher HP
- slightly higher p.def

I also want to note that the stats on the N3 armor were taken from my own Psychic's gear and may not be the average stats.

Update: had to change the G15 orns for the N3 set to G16.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2012

Alenta - Lost City wrote: »

Why R9 is better:
- more def lvls
- higher crit rate
- a bit more atk lvls

Why N3 is better:
- higher base mag def
- higher base mag. atk and closer dmg range
- slightly higher HP

maybe its just me but i cant help think that those are the same things said just in another language @_@; n that it boils down to 'you want crit or hp?'

Alenta - Lost City · December 2012

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

maybe its just me but i cant help think that those are the same things said just in another language @_@; n that it boils down to 'you want crit or hp?'

Lol def lvls and mag. def are two entirely different things but I can see how it can get confusing. And yeah, it does boil down to what stats a player prefers more of.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

As I said in the other thread, mystics, psychics, and sins are the only classes where r9 has a higher attack with the corresponding weapon then g16. On mystics, the r9 is definitely superior, but on other classes there is more grey area, and g16 excels in many of the aspects. I hope we can keep this thread from degrading like that last one did into players acting out of the title of the thread

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Pretty sure that r9 final cast daggers are the most superior daggers in the game...Same with bms axe...same with archers bow...and all the r9 final cast casters weapons have purify and more att lvs than nirvy.

Nobody is likely to keep plain r9 for long considering how cheap it is to upgrade

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pretty sure that r9 final cast daggers are the most superior daggers in the game...Same with bms axe...same with archers bow...and all the r9 final cast casters weapons have purify and more att lvs than nirvy.

Nobody is likely to keep plain r9 for long considering how cheap it is to upgrade

Agreed completely. R999 is currently by far the best gear in the game, with the exception of a barb having an r8r hammer with many defense levels for pulling catapults in tw or flags in nw.

Arctix - Dreamweaver · December 2012

u used G16 +10 cube neck for r9 n G15 +10 for nv (which cancels out the attk lvl point)

now R9: more def lvl n way more crit

G16 : more mag defence n lesser dmg range (200 hp seriously? )

The ironic point is magical resistance is a lie in this game. I being a psychic (with 71 def lvls 10k mag def n 4.8k p def ) at lvl 97 hav got hit by wiz for 20k which even r9 +12 sins havent dealt with ER. so IF I were u I would rule out mag def

Having said that def lvl follow a diminishing curve which makes them the mor u get wen u hav less the more its effective (got it? ) so the difference in 10 def lvls is higher that 3 % mag def n then there is crit b:pleased

So over all I'd go with r9 if cost wasn't a problem if farming? then by all means go for g16 its smexy but really?....

PS if u want pve comparison then lol

Valirah - Sanctuary · December 2012

Alenta - Lost City wrote: »

Lol def lvls and mag. def are two entirely different things but I can see how it can get confusing. And yeah, it does boil down to what stats a player prefers more of.

She was referring to the fact that both sets of adds do effectively the same thing, add some offense and some defense, though in slightly different ways. One set has an additional offensive add while the other has an additional defensive add.

Alenta - Lost City · December 2012

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

She was referring to the fact that both sets of adds do effectively the same thing, add some offense and some defense, though in slightly different ways. One set has an additional offensive add while the other has an additional defensive add.

I was actually thinking this as well but given my lack of knowledge on how defense levels actually work, I didn't want to make any assumptions.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Personally, G16 Nirv isn't that bad, it's a great way of gearing up on the go and cheap. R9 is still better due to being able to recast to a third stage currently, in my opinion.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if G16 Nirvana gets another recastable form, and if it does, it will most likely be better than r9, but either "on par" or slightly worst than r9 s3.

On second thought, I'm 97.5% sure Nirvana will get another recast.

Alenta - Lost City · December 2012

Arctix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

u used G16 +10 cube neck for r9 n G15 +10 for nv (which cancels out the attk lvl point)

now R9: more def lvl n way more crit

G16 : more mag defence n lesser dmg range (200 hp seriously? )

The ironic point is magical resistance is a lie in this game. I being a psychic (with 71 def lvls 10k mag def n 4.8k p def ) at lvl 97 hav got hit by wiz for 20k which even r9 +12 sins havent dealt with ER. so IF I were u I would rule out mag def

Having said that def lvl follow a diminishing curve which makes them the mor u get wen u hav less the more its effective (got it? ) so the difference in 10 def lvls is higher that 3 % mag def n then there is crit b:pleased

So over all I'd go with r9 if cost wasn't a problem if farming? then by all means go for g16 its smexy but really?....

PS if u want pve comparison then lol

Thanks. I edited the ornaments to show the G16 versions.

200 HP is still a difference...a slight difference, hence the word "slight" lol.

IIRC wizards have a skill that deals physical dmg, so maybe the wiz that hit you for 20k used that phys. dmg skill?

Overall, I think N3 is a solid build for altaholics and players with a smaller budget for gear.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Mystics are a bad example. let me quickly post a cleric build i made for a friend.

for cleric

full r9
http://pwcalc.com/8745314780f6c3b6
+4 critical hit rate
-3% more channeling
+9 Defense level
+1 Attack level

Full g16 Nirvana
http://pwcalc.com/e940ab5466769137
+1000 min mag attack and +1600 mag magic attack, using savants instead of icebournes.
+300 phys defense, increasing further with higher cast warsoul belts
+4500 mag defense
+over 800 hp

The stats on the g16 vana weapon and armor may vary, to be slightly better or worse, but for cleric, defensively and offensively in terms of pure damage, g16 seems to be better.
The warsoul helm and cloudcharger cape in r9 build were in there because my friend already had those.

Marid - Dreamweaver · December 2012

It is worth noting that r9 is guaranteed full sockets
However, it's also worth bearing in mind that nirvy gear is tradeable if you use lunar, at worst stashable if TT or manually bound, so you can resell/use on alts

Alenta - Lost City · December 2012

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally, G16 Nirv isn't that bad, it's a great way of gearing up on the go and cheap. R9 is still better due to being able to recast to a third stage currently, in my opinion.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if G16 Nirvana gets another recastable form, and if it does, it will most likely be better than r9, but either "on par" or slightly worst than r9 s3.

On second thought, I'm 97.5% sure Nirvana will get another recast.

If Nirvana gets another recast I hope refines and shards are transferred for free, but knowing how PWI works I doubt it. Then I would feel the pain of all the current +12 JOSD R9s that are in the process of upgrading to stage 3.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Marid - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It is worth noting that r9 is guaranteed full sockets
However, it's also worth bearing in mind that nirvy gear is tradeable if you use lunar, at worst stashable if TT or manually bound, so you can resell/use on alts

Can get 4 sockets on g16 with 10% chance, and rerolls are pretty cheap. The 4 shards you'll miss in armor without full 4 sockets though doesn't end up making that huge of a different with shards less then josd

Alenta - Lost City wrote: »

If Nirvana gets another recast I hope refines and shards are transferred for free, but knowing how PWI works I doubt it. Then I would feel the pain of all the current +12 JOSD R9s that are in the process of upgrading to stage 3.

Nirvana 4th cast !!!!

Probably gonna cost it, but by then, I think they may have better shards.... JOED. Jade of extreme defense, gives 3 defense level. Or a jade that gives 2 defense and 1 attack level. Also 20 vit stones might become available.

If we do get Nirvana 4th cast though, they will release shortly afterwards r10b:laugh

Knownase - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Also probably safe to say that if Nirvana gets another recast, the weapons will have procs added to them, and atk lvls, just not as much as r9 s3.

OontzOontz - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also probably safe to say that if Nirvana gets another recast, the weapons will have procs added to them, and atk lvls, just not as much as r9 s3.

Might as well call it warsoul 2nd cast.

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Eventually the will just release gm weapons if you send them a personal 50k donation and you can one hit anything....

Cotillion - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Why are theses 'comparisons' stopping at rank9? Second cast costs nothing but a few hours a weekend, for a few weekends now. Third cast cost is almost nothing.

T3 Nirvana is the end of the road for that gear chain. At best, we might see an upgrade no sooner than a year away. And I would highly doubt even that. Given there's 3 grades of Nirvana, attainable Warsouls and its recast, rank9 and its 2 recasts, and hell even Morai gear for PvE endgame. I don't think the game is screaming for more for a while yet.

Rank9 can be upgraded twice. The initial rank9 is probably the biggest cost. Upgrading is nothing but time now...so why even compare T3 to r9 base? Why would you get rank9 now and not consider upgrading it? The only people I can think of who may not are the ones who were +12, full JosD before NW hit.
Why aren't we comparing R9r3 to g13 Nirvana, then?

If looks is a factor here....don't even. I'm all for aesthetics, but come on, would you really rather be on the ground with a pretty weapon in your cold, dead hands or standing over a kill holding a slightly ugly one?

Azura - Lost City · December 2012

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why are theses 'comparisons' stopping at rank9? Second cast costs nothing but a few hours a weekend, for a few weekends now. Third cast cost is almost nothing.

With what it costs to make one token for recast, you can get a full set of nirvana-3, which for its price is very awesome. Also, r9 and nv3 are being compared because they are similar in terms of survivability and offense

Also, not everyone has even r9 yet, and that is very costly. Everything else you said is true, but nv-3 could be like used as gear before you get r9-3, or as a nice end-gear.

Decus - Dreamweaver · December 2012

This was purely an exercise in offensive capabilities of a g16 bow to a r9 bow factoring in the full sets of gear. I was honestly curious, being that I am a r9+12 user and have seen various claims to the superiority of both for archers.

Hypothetical R9 set (pretty much what I use, anyway)
R9 DPS --> 14493.5*(1.28)*0.83*(1.63) --> 25098.6

Hypothetical G16 set
G16 DPS --> 16456.5*(1.31)*0.69*(1.65) --> 24543.9

I did not refine any armour or ornaments, just weapons. I removed constants (except shards, but I remembered that after I added it up and didn't feel like doing it again) since they affect both builds in the same manner (ergo, no cube neck, ring engravings, or jones's blessing). I kept both at 101 since that's the same level modifier for dmg, and I restatted as much str out of both builds. (EDIT: After I did this, I realized I didn't restat out the extra mag and vit, but whatever... >.>)

As both sets require different pieces for their full offensive bonuses, I placed the most offensive substitutes to fill in spots that don't overlap. Thus, r9 gets a -int cape (yes, -0.05 int is better than 5 attack levels given the base -int of r9), and g16 gets a sky cover and a g16 JR belt. (I also know that r9 doesn't require a ring for use, but it does require a ring to be created, and thus it is available for any r9 player.) As the stats on the g16 are all variable, I gave the bow the stats most comparable to the r9 bow (-int and +dex). I threw in the +pattak for no real reason. I just was aiming to make the bow as strong as I could given the compared constraints.

There are obvious flaws with my comparison. G16 is entirely variable and can produce higher damage given fortuitous re-rolls. My choice in ornaments is also biased toward the only offensive capabilities of ornaments, attack levels. Clearly, since there is more to being an archer than just avg DPS, there are other factors to consider when making gear decisions. Purge, survivability, and flexibility of gear between alts are all big factors for many people (purge and attack levels being mine, personally) so this isn't an end-all comparison by any means. I know it doesn't say much about other classes, but I play an archer (yea my sig says otherwise, sue me) and thus it was the only thing that I cared about.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This was purely an exercise in offensive capabilities of a g16 bow to a r9 bow factoring in the full sets of gear. I was honestly curious, being that I am a r9+12 user and have seen various claims to the superiority of both for archers.

Hypothetical R9 set (pretty much what I use, anyway)
R9 DPS --> 14493.5*(1.28)*0.83*(1.63) --> 25098.6

Hypothetical G16 set
G16 DPS --> 16456.5*(1.31)*0.69*(1.65) --> 24543.9

I did not refine any armour or ornaments, just weapons. I removed constants (except shards, but I remembered that after I added it up and didn't feel like doing it again) since they affect both builds in the same manner (ergo, no cube neck, ring engravings, or jones's blessing). I kept both at 101 since that's the same level modifier for dmg, and I restatted as much str out of both builds. (EDIT: After I did this, I realized I didn't restat out the extra mag and vit, but whatever... >.>)

As both sets require different pieces for their full offensive bonuses, I placed the most offensive substitutes to fill in spots that don't overlap. Thus, r9 gets a -int cape (yes, -0.05 int is better than 5 attack levels given the base -int of r9), and g16 gets a sky cover and a g16 JR belt. (I also know that r9 doesn't require a ring for use, but it does require a ring to be created, and thus it is available for any r9 player.) As the stats on the g16 are all variable, I gave the bow the stats most comparable to the r9 bow (-int and +dex). I threw in the +pattak for no real reason. I just was aiming to make the bow as strong as I could given the compared constraints.

There are obvious flaws with my comparison. G16 is entirely variable and can produce higher damage given fortuitous re-rolls. My choice in ornaments is also biased toward the only offensive capabilities of ornaments, attack levels. Clearly, since there is more to being an archer than just avg DPS, there are other factors to consider when making gear decisions. Purge, survivability, and flexibility of gear between alts are all big factors for many people (purge and attack levels being mine, personally) so this isn't an end-all comparison by any means. I know it doesn't say much about other classes, but I play an archer (yea my sig says otherwise, sue me) and thus it was the only thing that I cared about.

Great examples are R9 wiz vs N3 wiz, R9 BM vs N3 BM, and R9 Sin vs N3 Sin. Someone else do a Wiz and a Sin :P

BM:

R9 w/N3 Helm & Cape Average Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/aa2bec80c457a21d

N3 Average Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/e3bc81d7398d95ed

N3 Perfect Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/fa20554e102de064

Utilizing Nowitsawn's Calcs:
https://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/itsawn/pw-damage-calc-v2-0

R9 vs N3 Average:
Damage Average: 4133
Damage Taken Average: 3757

R9 vs N3 Max:
Damage Average: 3686
Damage Taken Average: 3821

Now before people get all excited and stupid over those calcs, realize the following:

1. R9 has GoF. Add 20% to that damage Average.
2. R9 has 4% more crit. Could add another 4% to that damage Average.
3. Cost:

Travel with me to pretend land for a moment. We're going to talk a bit nebulous here in pretend land, and yes there are unicorns & ponies.

R9 is 1513 Gold NOT on sale. Now, we can easily knock off 25%, or 50% depending on the sales, but lets go with that 1513. With gold at say, 1.75m, lets round it to 2.65b. Add another 80 for that cape and helm. 2.73b

In pretend land, each N3 armor piece costs 40m to make. Also, in pretend land, one of your pieces got 4 sockets with those max stats. But the other 5 got 3. And that weapon, well you got an killer roll but it was 1 socket. Cost ya 145m for that weapon.

200m each socket. Thats 1.2b! So far were at 1.585b. 1b less than R9 at max price. So far its not bad. But oh noes! We gotta get a belt. 50m right there. And a skycover? 90m. And refining those two? 650m each. 3.025b We just passed R9.

So in pretend land, complete with unicorns and ponies, you're spending more money to get less.

10% behind at average stats is NOT BAD. It makes it comparable and good, and it is way cheaper if you're okay with 3 sockets. But it's not equivalent, 10% damage adds up per hit and wins in the end.

Not to mention with how cheap it is to make a R9rr weapon (1b or less). Keep in mind the classes that get weapon procs (GoF, Purge) adds way more value to that R9. N3 is competitive enough, but its not equal, nor does it exceed.

(The old calcs I did showing max stats with 3 sockets and single socket weapon at 10% behind R9 had N2 combo helm and cape on the BM, I just kept it N3 this time for fairness.)

Maelael - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Alenta - Lost City wrote: »

I was going to post this in the other N3/R9 thread but it closed before I could submit. Here is the R9 gear of the Mystic and here is N3 AA gear with a G16 wand (no bonuses added) and good endgame ornaments. Both sets have +10 refines (except the rings) and no shards.

Why R9 is better:
- more def lvls
- higher crit rate

Why N3 is better:
- higher base mag def
- higher base mag. atk and closer dmg range
- slightly higher HP
- slightly higher p.def

I also want to note that the stats on the N3 armor were taken from my own Psychic's gear and may not be the average stats.

Update: had to change the G15 orns for the N3 set to G16.

Although your n3 add ons and overall build doesn't really work - Try using the same cape and hat:

http://pwcalc.com/97b97f6a88983f9e

R9:
16798 vs 16212 Average damage - R9 wins.
Better HP by 290
6 more crit
1 Attack level
5 Def levels

N3:
~1k more pdef (btw, Skycovers = better)
~2.5k more mdef (who cares?)
Teeny bit better evasion that amounts to a hill of beans vs Melee and Archers.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Great examples are R9 wiz vs N3 wiz, R9 BM vs N3 BM, and R9 Sin vs N3 Sin. Someone else do a Wiz and a Sin :P

BM:

R9 w/N3 Helm & Cape Average Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/aa2bec80c457a21d

N3 Average Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/e3bc81d7398d95ed

N3 Perfect Stats:
http://pwcalc.com/fa20554e102de064

Utilizing Nowitsawn's Calcs:
https://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/itsawn/pw-damage-calc-v2-0

R9 vs N3 Average:
Damage Average: 4133
Damage Taken Average: 3757

R9 vs N3 Max:
Damage Average: 3686
Damage Taken Average: 3821

Now before people get all excited and stupid over those calcs, realize the following:

1. R9 has GoF. Add 20% to that damage Average.
2. R9 has 4% more crit. Could add another 4% to that damage Average.
3. Cost:

Travel with me to pretend land for a moment. We're going to talk a bit nebulous here in pretend land, and yes there are unicorns & ponies.

R9 is 1513 Gold NOT on sale. Now, we can easily knock off 25%, or 50% depending on the sales, but lets go with that 1513. With gold at say, 1.75m, lets round it to 2.65b. Add another 80 for that cape and helm. 2.73b

In pretend land, each N3 armor piece costs 40m to make. Also, in pretend land, one of your pieces got 4 sockets with those max stats. But the other 5 got 3. And that weapon, well you got an killer roll but it was 1 socket. Cost ya 145m for that weapon.

200m each socket. Thats 1.2b! So far were at 1.585b. 1b less than R9 at max price. So far its not bad. But oh noes! We gotta get a belt. 50m right there. And a skycover? 90m. And refining those two? 650m each. 3.025b We just passed R9.

So in pretend land, complete with unicorns and ponies, you're spending more money to get less.

10% behind at average stats is NOT BAD. It makes it comparable and good, and it is way cheaper if you're okay with 3 sockets. But it's not equivalent, 10% damage adds up per hit and wins in the end.

Not to mention with how cheap it is to make a R9rr weapon (1b or less). Keep in mind the classes that get weapon procs (GoF, Purge) adds way more value to that R9. N3 is competitive enough, but its not equal, nor does it exceed.

(The old calcs I did showing max stats with 3 sockets and single socket weapon at 10% behind R9 had N2 combo helm and cape on the BM, I just kept it N3 this time for fairness.)

Finally you give evidence instead of insulting randomly. Currently for g16 vana though on Sanctuary the price for a weapon costs around 70m, not 150m (bought mine for 450m). Even with the 1 socket in weapon, the weapon still does more base damage on all classes except for sins, psychics and mystics. GOF is better on bms sins and barbarians for sure, but for a bm gof can also be suicidel if hp/defense isnt high enough. Ive had bms miss consistantly with zerk still eating their hp, allowing me to kill them easier. The interval on r9 gear makes it better for archers under most cases (barrage g16 = better, especially with xbow) and the purge can help, but often fails to proc when needed most. G16 on assassins can get interval, up to 3x to make them 5.0 base with aps build, and faster hits with full armor survivable build, but has no gof, which is deadly on assassins with chill of deep, who can come out of stealth into a stun lock and get a kill with more critzerks then any other class. For casters with no procs on regular r9, excluding psychics and mystics, the g16 weapons hit far harder, even with icebourne in the r9 and savants in the g16 to makeup for lost channeling. The gear also gives more defense and hp. It can be argued that for these classes the g16 exceeds the r9.

R999 however is by far the best in game for the time being, no arguement to that

Maelael - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Finally you give evidence instead of insulting randomly. Currently for g16 vana though on Sanctuary the price for a weapon costs around 70m, not 150m (bought mine for 450m). Even with the 1 socket in weapon, the weapon still does more base damage on all classes except for sins, psychics and mystics. GOF is better on bms sins and barbarians for sure, but for a bm gof can also be suicidel if hp/defense isnt high enough. Ive had bms miss consistantly with zerk still eating their hp, allowing me to kill them easier. The interval on r9 gear makes it better for archers under most cases (barrage g16 = better, especially with xbow) and the purge can help, but often fails to proc when needed most. G16 on assassins can get interval, up to 3x to make them 5.0 base with aps build, and faster hits with full armor survivable build, but has no gof, which is deadly on assassins with chill of deep, who can come out of stealth into a stun lock and get a kill with more critzerks then any other class. For casters with no procs on regular r9, excluding psychics and mystics, the g16 weapons hit far harder, even with icebourne in the r9 and savants in the g16 to makeup for lost channeling. The gear also gives more defense and hp. It can be argued that for these classes the g16 exceeds the r9.

R999 however is by far the best in game for the time being, no arguement to that

I'm gonna be further insulting:

Your reply is still garbage. Think before you post - utilize in game experiences, don't weight things in the favor of your argument, and use raw numbers while considering attainable reality.

Lastly, I'll most likely not bother replying to you further cause your replies are dumb, and I can only take so much stupid in a day. Its why I didn't invalidate your last post with the builds.

PS: That post wasn't for you, because you're basically a troll who is stuck on validating their gear choice. It was more for others looking for something past blind opinions and people trying to validate their choice in gear.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm gonna be further insulting:

Your reply is still garbage. Think before you post - utilize in game experiences, don't weight things in the favor of your argument, and use raw numbers while considering attainable reality.

Lastly, I'll most likely not bother replying to you further cause your replies are dumb, and I can only take so much stupid in a day. Its why I didn't invalidate your last post with the builds.

PS: That post wasn't for you, because you're basically a troll who is stuck on validating their gear choice. It was more for others looking for something past blind opinions and people trying to validate their choice in gear.

So much for trying to be polite and fix relationships

All my posts are full of thought. I did utilize in game experiences several times. If you would like more numbers, i could easily repost what I had posted on the other thread, and do a dps calculation too. You say attainable reality completely contradicting yourself, seeing as I was referring to g16 weapons, with no add-ons excluding the garenteed 40 attack level. With add ons, the difference could raise even more in cases. Also for many, r9 is not attainable for many

My replies are dumb because I actually post cold hard facts. That makes sense. I'm going to drop to your level here, If you can only take a certain amount of stupidity on a day, then why don't you try to educate yourself. You didn't try to invalidate my post with builds for one reason, you couldn't. I would love to see your attempts at it, but you already said you won't be replying further to avoid seeing your own stupidity.

Troll
I'm a troll because I give blind opinions? I give the truth, as seen through numbers, experience, and input from other users who I have talked to. I attempt to answer every question honestly giving opinions from both sides of the issue, admitting clearly when I am wrong. If being honest and helpful makes me a troll, then they will have to come up with a new word for you, seeing as you have completely ignored the subject matter of posts and denied valid evidence with your own opinions having no experience to base it on, and when proven wrong, resort to flaming to hide you own inadequate lack of answers. People continuously post the data for one option and proceed to say that the other is worse. I post the data for both and compare them to see which is better. The original thread on this topic was about a g16 caster being kicked in favor of an r9 caster, then the g16 being told that they are lesser. I provided evidence showing the a g16 caster can be infact stronger on all occasions, other then that for mystics and psychics. You respond by calling me stupid and citing god of frenzy for your own class, which I admit allows your class to deal more damage and be more effective, but has no relevance in the terms of a caster, especially in that of a pve situation of a warsong run.

FluffyRoar - Heavens Tear · December 2012

I find it not so surprising that in the past day there's been about 8 people to call Gecko an idiot.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHKoUl-kR7WDLDTNWK57drUdlJn2fZksK9ELQxjXkzgocZZq6jqgsO7fA0

Jaabg - Sanctuary · December 2012

I'll just chip in to muddle things more. My g16 claws, int dex dex retain agro from fists int str dex. On paper average damage is same, but some how agro is plastered on me.

G15 +10 sins = lazy sins, g16+7 = keeps agro from me.

Full R9 +12 dot archer using a bow can not steal agro from my claws if we both spark at a similar time. If i spark late by 2~4 seconds, i only get agro back at the 2nd to 3rd spark, but most time bosses are dead by that time.

R9 3rd cast +12 wizzy somewhat takes agro from me, but wizzy was multi clienting so characters were on macro, not a fair agro battle.

There are lots of other example where "my DD" is lower on paper, but i retain agro.

People can compare left and right on what is better for each class, at the end of the day, there are 2 things. 1) Have fun with what you have, 2) Work towards getting what you want.

Personally i find the comparison of base weapons with no refines to be lacking in depth. Most people will refine their weapon to +2~+5 as soon as they get it, and +10~+12 it more often than not. Base numbers don't make sense in game either, because on paper those base numbers should hold agro, but they do not, i do. A more comparable example is weapons refined at different levels and each variable stat. R9 gets many more add on weapons than g16. R9 is fixed, r9 3rd cast is somewhat variable. G16 is variable. One would have to calculate the damage of each weapon at each variable, find the averages, probabilities of getting those rolls, do the funky probability math and than we can compare. That exercise will be essentially useless, in the end people go with what they feel is right and what knowledge makes their universe space. A person like me, i will spend 15k dollars in the game, and get r9 3rd cast +12 dark flame axes for my bm because i saw someone say that r9 3rd cast was best. A friend would do the same to g15 and another to g16. Any one of us wrong? probably not, we have fun with what we got and work towards next level of gear.

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Agro is a poor example.
I'm just a plain rank 9 +12 garnet gem all dot build sin and I have never seen another player keep me from aggro unless they attacked first and I hesitated to attack. However, I am pretty sure some of the sins I have played with who had really nice stat n3 +12 did out dd me, but they did not out aggro me.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Agro is a poor example.
I'm just a plain rank 9 +12 garnet gem all dot build sin and I have never seen another player keep me from aggro unless they attacked first and I hesitated to attack. However, I am pretty sure some of the sins I have played with who had really nice stat n3 +12 did out dd me, but they did not out aggro me.

Without use of aggro skills aggro is determined by dd (damage dealt) showing that you wouldve out dd'd them, probably with zerkcrits.

But agreed, using claws as an example when there is no r9 claws available does not work. Im tired of all this proof without examples, so i will be spending time on calc later to show thingsb:laugh

Cotillion - Dreamweaver · December 2012

This argument is pointless.

Anyone going rank9 now is not stopping at base rank9, considering its the most expensive part. People going rank9 now are going third cast. If you want to compare endgame gears for Nirvana path VS Rank path, then compare the true ends for each: g16 Nirvana VS Rank9 3rd.

You seem to be avoiding the fact that g16 is the end of road for Nirvana and theres no where to go, where rank9 leaves the upgrade door open, at a substantially cheaper cost than before.

In response to the N3/R9 thread...

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