Upcoming skill rebalance and the BM

Saethos - Raging Tide · November 2012

Sjuggs - Lost City wrote: »

Yea but too bad some of us cant afford a 1bil weapon + refines so pvp always here with fists
and yes, chi costs make me mad from all the things I should do on wars

I can't afford a 1bil weapon + refines. I use axes in TW. I don't care who you are or what your build is, if you want to PvP, you pretty much need axes. Always. The TT90 gold axes are seen frequently on my server because of the zerk...

When I see a BM in fists, usually they have low M.Def AND P.Def, so I HF bramble and usually they die during HF...But when I se eone with axes, they usually tank the *** out of me...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · November 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I know this is like from a month ago, but I didn't see it until now.

You must not have watched my videos very closely. I'm not 5aps base; I'm 3.33 in my LA and HA 99 with my G16 fists. It's only 5aps when sparked which defeats the purposes of gaining chi, or 4aps with Cyclone Heel/Wind Shield.

I don't even use fists for Mass PvP; the only time I use them is for 1v1 or on a catapult in TW after barb has died and mass PvP has ended. I can guarantee you you will never see me pull out my fists other than for a quick Bolt of Tyreseus in mass PvP. My job is to tank on the front lines, not use APS like a sin.

What kind of BM wouldn't complain about chi if they're doing their job correctly? Red sprint + roar + HF costs 3 sparks and 35 chi already. I slim it down to 2 sparks and 35 Chi by using blue sprint with fortify IG but still hard to re-gain on axes and marrow spam alone. Fists are pretty much useless in TW / Mass PvP against opponents that are all R9 +12 JOSD full buffed.

I'll regularly whip out fists in tw just for stuns and to build chi for my next move. Its not for dd, I let others kill for me in mass pk, but I know how much chi I consume so I'll keep it up by apsing rather than dding some times. That's not to say I don't use my axes a majority of the time, but alot of what I do is just setup for the next push or crowd control and that requires chi. Seekers are great to lock until you have 4 sparks

then you can kill. with chi leftover. Just depends on the situation and whats happening around you since you don't want to focus on one person.

Sjuggs - Lost City · November 2012

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can't afford a 1bil weapon + refines. I use axes in TW. I don't care who you are or what your build is, if you want to PvP, you pretty much need axes. Always. The TT90 gold axes are seen frequently on my server because of the zerk...

When I see a BM in fists, usually they have low M.Def AND P.Def, so I HF bramble and usually they die during HF...But when I se eone with axes, they usually tank the *** out of me...

You seem to underestimate g16 aps weapons, I dont even use hh99 set bonus anymore for attack speed and I reach 11k case hp with +5 - +7 refines, pure str
And GX are ****, I would rather use my R8 +5 poleaxe

TheDan - Sanctuary · November 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll regularly whip out fists in tw just for stuns and to build chi for my next move. Its not for dd, I let others kill for me in mass pk, but I know how much chi I consume so I'll keep it up by apsing rather than dding some times. That's not to say I don't use my axes a majority of the time, but alot of what I do is just setup for the next push or crowd control and that requires chi. Seekers are great to lock until you have 4 sparks then you can kill. with chi leftover. Just depends on the situation and whats happening around you since you don't want to focus on one person.

I'll use them for totems / catapults for chi, but never for damage. Most the time I'm without a target to use APS, because I'm usually stuck in the midst of a large group of people AoEing. So Chi is always a problem unless you take time away to get it. Sins on the other hand can stay in combat pretty much the whole time with a limitless supply of Chi. BMs are really set back on what they can do with their Chi limitations.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · November 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll use them for totems / catapults for chi, but never for damage. Most the time I'm without a target to use APS, because I'm usually stuck in the midst of a large group of people AoEing. So Chi is always a problem unless you take time away to get it. Sins on the other hand can stay in combat pretty much the whole time with a limitless supply of Chi. BMs are really set back on what they can do with their Chi limitations.

Speaking of sins, I find it funny they have the opposite philosophy of apsing than us for pk. We'll whip out fists to gun down an AA or LA but tend to rely on axes and spike damage for the heavy-weights like other HAs, R9 JoSD LAs, and even some demon wizzies. They will often CotD skill spam in pk the weaker opponents looking for dph, but the barbs and BMs they switch back to aps for the high dps.

I know 'zerk axe or gtfo' for BMs is the philosophy nowadays but I'm still not convinced its better than apsing. Yes chaining multiple (3+...4+?) zerks with crits between charm ticks gets the job done but alot of time its similar dps to claws, without cyclone, over the same 8-10 seconds. The whole dph and pray for crit zerks is so 'barb'ish in my opinion and doesn't seem to capitalize on everything a bm can combine. Think I need a little more pvp experience with higher gear before I establish my own opinion but thats what I've experienced so far.

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide · November 2012

This is my imput of axe skill spam from a sage bm perspective. For group pk and tw I like the 30% fire debuff that sage fissure gives. It allows the wiz to use aoe fire skills for more damage. For sage highland cleave, when it procs (it depends on the day how much it does b:surrender) my crit rate goes to 46%. I then dont have to pray for a crit I just hope that I get a few in a row. I find that if I spam axe skills I do enough damage to all armor classes that it can't be ignored. So I find when I start an attack run after roar and hf who ever isn't dead is getting out of dodge and that includes cata barbs. At times I ignore people who do less than 1k damage per hit to stay on target. I think the other debuffs and other efects that axes have make it a better choice than fist. Even if fist can equal the damage of axe skill spam it's still 1 target and without the benifit of the other adds. Oh and I always laugh when my aoes pop sins from stealth, I love that. I know sage bms are shunned and some times stoned to death b:sad but I work with what I got.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · November 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

but tend to rely on axes and spike damage for the heavy-weights like other HAs, R9 JoSD LAs, and even some demon wizzies.

I actually prefer to switch to fists and dd with fists when my squad is focused on one high priority target, if they are still alive after stun, hf. My claws often get the hp down so that the charm ticks, stuns and the rest do their job at keeping the person from using pots, skills, and people die quick. I never tried sparking and killing, chi is way too important to spark on bm for tw.

The above only works because my fists are way better refined than my axes b:chuckle. If i can get 3~4 attacks a second at 500~2k per hit. Most people will get very worried to see a sudden hp drop, charm tick and hp still falling.

Fighting from mobs i know that average damage is similar on fists/claws to that of axe skill damage. I have a tendency to lean towards fists/claws, more hits = more chance to crit. Sure a zerk+crit is awesome but i don't like leaving things to chance if possible.

CapnK - Sanctuary · November 2012

Btw, don't use fists against barbs in TW. They get chi each time they are hit, so by hitting them with multiple weak hits you're making them harder to kill instead of easier.

TheDan - Sanctuary · November 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Speaking of sins, I find it funny they have the opposite philosophy of apsing than us for pk. We'll whip out fists to gun down an AA or LA but tend to rely on axes and spike damage for the heavy-weights like other HAs, R9 JoSD LAs, and even some demon wizzies. They will often CotD skill spam in pk the weaker opponents looking for dph, but the barbs and BMs they switch back to aps for the high dps.

I know 'zerk axe or gtfo' for BMs is the philosophy nowadays but I'm still not convinced its better than apsing. Yes chaining multiple (3+...4+?) zerks with crits between charm ticks gets the job done but alot of time its similar dps to claws, without cyclone, over the same 8-10 seconds. The whole dph and pray for crit zerks is so 'barb'ish in my opinion and doesn't seem to capitalize on everything a bm can combine. Think I need a little more pvp experience with higher gear before I establish my own opinion but thats what I've experienced so far.

Speaking on behalf of owning both a +12 R9 weapon and a +10 G16 fist I can only give you my own thoughts on it based off my experience, when you get the gears for yourself you can make your own judgement, but the way I see it goes like this:

The whole zerk axe R9 or gtfo DPH philosophy is aimed at mass PK for survivability and crowd control and 1v1s against AA/LA because you can bypass charm easily at half life, which is probably 90% of PvP. Yes, on paper fists are better damage because they are higher DPS and do more damage output over time, but it doesn't factor in the chance to kill by bypassing charm at half life.

However, DPS is better for HA targets because a zerk crit won't bypass charm, so charm ticking is not even a factor to be considered against other HA, but for LA and AA I kill them much better with axes because at half life about 1/3rd of the time I can bypass charm before they use expel AD or IG with a single crit or a zerk, no zerk crit needed. Fists are stlil the most viable weapon against other HA, but in TW the role of killing other HA is usually assigned to casters so fists get diminished usefulness. That's pretty much the main reason why people are all up in the R9 zerk axe DPH or gtfo idea, is cause the casters usually overtake the role of killing HA that fists are actually more viable for.

It's not to say fists are completely useless in TW, but it certainly fulfills a different role other than tanking if used.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · November 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Speaking on behalf of owning both a +12 R9 weapon and a +10 G16 fist I can only give you my own thoughts on it based off my experience, when you get the gears for yourself you can make your own judgement, but the way I see it goes like this:

The whole zerk axe R9 or gtfo DPH philosophy is aimed at mass PK for survivability and crowd control and 1v1s against AA/LA because you can bypass charm easily at half life, which is probably 90% of PvP. Yes, on paper fists are better damage because they are higher DPS and do more damage output over time, but it doesn't factor in the chance to kill by bypassing charm at half life.

However, DPS is better for HA targets because a zerk crit won't bypass charm, so charm ticking is not even a factor to be considered against other HA, but for LA and AA I kill them much better with axes because at half life about 1/3rd of the time I can bypass charm before they use expel AD or IG with a single crit or a zerk, no zerk crit needed. Fists are stlil the most viable weapon against other HA, but in TW the role of killing other HA is usually assigned to casters so fists get diminished usefulness. That's pretty much the main reason why people are all up in the R9 zerk axe DPH or gtfo idea, is cause the casters usually overtake the role of killing HA that fists are actually more viable for.

It's not to say fists are completely useless in TW, but it certainly fulfills a different role other than tanking if used.

Okay Dan is on page, I'd ask the "I use fists in TW!" people to think about the following:

1. Fist range is closer. Yes it takes a second, but that is a second wasted.
2. 3 sparking (or even 2 sparking) takes several seconds.
3. You "should" only use them effectively on a purged HA class. (Bramble, SoV, Beastial Rage is a no no to aps on)
4. It takes more time to APS 10-15k hp down than it does to do 3 fast crits, zerk crits, or zerks with axes.
5. Fists cannot utilize Highland Cleave or Fissure
6. Fists cannot utilize Drake Bash
7. Fists cannot utilize reckless rush (mostly only used to slow down catabarbs)
8. Deicide/G13 Proc overwrites STA.
9. Most of our APS armor is **** compared to the gear for TW setups. Takes time to switch to that gear that could be spent clicking other stuff.
10. Fists require another click to get HF off.

TW wise I always think to myself, what is the most helpful I can be? So far it's never been fisting down a catabarb, BM, or Seeker. A ranged DD could be dealing with those people, and I could be off CCing.

And kinda...were more of an "effect" support class in TW. Really we should be out stunning, amping, slowing...not really focused on killing. And axes can utilize all of our CC skills.

Two things I always want in TW: More time and more chi. Nothing truly lives long enough for the chi gain from fists to be worth it (at least that isnt instantly rebrambled), and there isn't a significant (or at all) time jump in utilizing fists in the situations where there is.

augustfinknottle · November 2012

One reason to have fists in TW: to hit the chi posts/enemy binding posts more quickly while waiting for the cata barbs to come. Other than that, pretty much agree with Maelael.

T_i_m - Dreamweaver · November 2012

Blademastets are supposed to be versatile. Put your aps and axe builds on a swap macro. This is useful in pvp and pve.

augustfinknottle · November 2012

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Blademastets are supposed to be versatile. Put your aps and axe builds on a swap macro. This is useful in pvp and pve.

I thought you couldn't put your gear in a macro. How do you do that?

Also, do you use swords and pole in TW as well?

Morridune - Raging Tide · November 2012

augustfinknottle wrote: »

I thought you couldn't put your gear in a macro. How do you do that?

Also, do you use swords and pole in TW as well?

question 1:i dont think u can set a macro but u can put em in a line on hot bars and click along said line to switch

question 2:this question is currently gonna incite little bit of ppl ragin at one another over their opinions on pros/cons for longer than needed concidering how many times that argument has been had
prolly best to wait till after skill updates and player's are more familiar with how effective the skills will become until then just stick with axe's ( when ppl can see u at least ;D) cos wether or not pole/swords have merits ppl get pissy if u get them out

Jaabg - Sanctuary · November 2012

Morridune - Raging Tide wrote: »

cos wether or not pole/swords have merits ppl get pissy if u get them out

Depends on situation, last night we did warsong, bmx2, veno, cleric, psy, mystic. Most mobs died in 5~10 seconds. GS+HF combo, with mire and other debuffs for other classes helped. Veno did the pulling. In fail squads when bb goes poof, i often pull out a sword to give tank, cleric, some relief while they set things back up.

The reason why people don't like it is when you know the weapon is the wrong choice for that moment, but someone insists on using it to be different. Everything is going smoothly, and someone pulls out a spear and uses metero rush to push things out of aoe range when the tank was not sustaining damage. When asked why someone would do that, replies range from, meteor rush does more damage, my aoe were in cool down, i like using that skill. People like those make it hard to play.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · November 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

When asked why someone would do that, replies range from, meteor rush does more damage, my aoe were in cool down, i like using that skill. People like those make it hard to play.

My biggest issue is in these cases, people are usually misinformed where and what is doing more damage, along with other useful skills.

I've always got either Fan of Flames and Cyclone Heel available, or both when my aoes are in cooldown. Meteor Rush doesn't do more damage usually because people rarely have a pole that hits anywhere near as hard as their axes. "I like using that skill" when its a skill that is not helpful, is like saying "I like trolling my group I'm working with." It's not a cooldown issue, its not a damage issue, and style wise...okay if you wanna cut your foot off "Cause its fun" and slow your group down you're nuts.

*I* can't make a case to use the Sword or Pole skills outside of narrow situations (pushback for RB, reach for Harpies, MSS for glass canon DDs I can't get aggro from yet we have two RB waves [Which never happens], stacking GS with HF when you have enough DD for the mobs to fall in a short time). I haven't seen anyone else make a serious case for these skills either. IF it would come up - I'd instantly work on an uber pole and sword and have yet more hotkey spaces taken up. But until then the sword stays in my bank (Atmos is too slow, MSS hasnt come up in months) and my pole comes out for the oddball situations.

Even with the improvements I don't see MSS being useable in PvP/TW, and MAYBE on the GS if the 90% cut is true. Past that a lot of it comes down to cast/channel time or other better options being available.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · November 2012

I agree, my usual aoe in RB is Highland cleave>fissue>drake sweep>highland cleave>fan of flame/cyclone heel, and repeating that sequence again. There is 1~2 second delay for the 2nd highland cleave, but with good lag, it is never an issue b:chuckle.

Recently though, i have had to use meteor rush often, because the barb does not pull the archer/ranged mobs into the aoe range/bb range.

Purge pole is useful, but the proc rate is flaky, some days first hit it procs multiple times. Other days, the boss's buff will wear off and the pole will still not proc at 2 aps. How i miss venos in squad b:dirty on those days.

At lower levels it is fun to play around with all the above skills, or in solo situations because there is no one else relying on you. In squad situations, i still have a hard time understanding some BM and aoe classes.

The funny ones are in warsong, archers and bm usually, "so why didn't you guys aoe on the mobs?" "We take agro and die." It's not like they often have high refine weapons to pull agro, but they just prefer to spark and use claws/fists. There is nothing wrong with dying in warsong, i do it often enough, at least once per run if not more times, depending on the silliness of the group.

Maybe if there is server vs server tw (speculation) or just server wide tw, we might see some new uses for poles and swords.

Also looking forward to skill rebalancing

, hopefully the cool down on the flame tsunami is reduced. It may not be a useful pvp skill for most, but it is a great pve skill for me when soloing things. And the leaps

Lunari_Fenix - Heavens Tear · November 2012

Considering the expansion is right around the corner, I'm a bit late posting some of the info I found, but, whatever.

Smack- Instead of the original 2-3 second seal, it's now a 3 second seal, along with the other changes mentioned.

Buddha's Guard- The healing effect is up from 5% to 20% of your max HP. The cooldown is still 10 mins, so, still sucky at best.

Anyway, it'll be here in a few more days, so, we'll be able to see the changes for ourselves.

Edit: I've also had a quick look at MSS, GS, and Mage Bane. I can safely say that the debuff boosts are PvP only.

Saethos - Raging Tide · November 2012

Lunari_Fenix - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Considering the expansion is right around the corner, I'm a bit late posting some of the info I found, but, whatever.

Smack- Instead of the original 2-3 second seal, it's now a 3 second seal, along with the other changes mentioned.

Buddha's Guard- The healing effect is up from 5% to 20% of your max HP. The cooldown is still 10 mins, so, still sucky at best.

Anyway, it'll be here in a few more days, so, we'll be able to see the changes for ourselves.

Edit: I've also had a quick look at MSS, GS, and Mage Bane. I can safely say that the debuff boosts are PvP only.

I was always unclear on the 2-3 second duration, at least now I'll have a pure understanding.

Buddha's Guard- I can see it being more applicable now, since it costs no chi. You could kinda use it as a "omg save my ***" skill I guess...Maybe not...

Those debuffs are going to be great on GS if you can save the chi, since I'm certain HF will still be better.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · November 2012

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Those debuffs are going to be great on GS if you can save the chi, since I'm certain HF will still be better.

From damage tests on my Barb, yes - it is. Buffed or unbuffed, waaaay better. They were hitting like 75% harder.

Duel someone with buffs and etc - have them debuff you. Pdef and Mdef cuts are kinda **** (helps, but its not HF)

Saethos - Raging Tide · November 2012

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

From damage tests on my Barb, yes - it is. Buffed or unbuffed, waaaay better. They were hitting like 75% harder.

Duel someone with buffs and etc - have them debuff you. Pdef and Mdef cuts are kinda **** (helps, but its not HF)

The big thing is the buffs are greater than the debuff. HF is just do double either way. But if you could spare some apoth or genie to use both, that raises all hell...but not really worth doing unless you know you're going down...I don't see it being a massively used combo.

X_Rays - Sanctuary · November 2012

As defense goes down, the damage increases nonlinearly. That's why wizard hits so high with undine + spark. The new Glacial Spike shines when used in conjunction with Tangling Mire from a high strength genie on someone without any pdef buffs (aura of golden bell, stone barrier, etc). This could literally make a 10k pdef go down to like 500.

To give an idea. 10k pdef is 70% damage reduction and 500 pdef is hmm about 10% reduction. So after the debuff you deal (1-10%)/(1-70%) = 3x damage. This might be better than HF + mire combo, although I haven't tested it yet. Not to mention that demon GS might make all hits critical for 5 seconds.

TheDan - Sanctuary · November 2012

Anyone else notice that the skill cooldowns / chi costs are not updated in game - but are changed according to these new skill updates? Lol.

Tiger leap still says it costs 25 chi, but it only costs 10. Same with Leap Back.

Smack says it still has a 40 second cooldown, it's actually 30. Tons of descriptions are not updated even though they changed.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · November 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyone else notice that the skill cooldowns / chi costs are not updated in game - but are changed according to these new skill updates? Lol.

Tiger leap still says it costs 25 chi, but it only costs 10. Same with Leap Back.

Smack says it still has a 40 second cooldown, it's actually 30. Tons of descriptions are not updated even though they changed.

Yup. I can confirm the tooltip for Reckless Rush is wrong, but it reflects the patch note in use (ie, its 90 seconds, not 120).

I honestly did a **** job of paying attention to the rest of the tooltips cause I was busy, but I swear that Blade Hurl is updated correctly tooltip wise.

(Of Note: Blade Hurl = Awesome now)

TheDan - Sanctuary · November 2012

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yup. I can confirm the tooltip for Reckless Rush is wrong, but it reflects the patch note in use (ie, its 90 seconds, not 120).

I honestly did a **** job of paying attention to the rest of the tooltips cause I was busy, but I swear that Blade Hurl is updated correctly tooltip wise.

(Of Note: Blade Hurl = Awesome now)

Yeah, Blade Hurl is awesome. I never used it as much as I did now because 1 spark for 3 seconds was just dumb. But 35 chi for 6 seconds and AoE is epic. It only costs as much as roar of pride and it's long range.

RendRazor - Heavens Tear · November 2012

BM`s are awesome

Upcoming skill rebalance and the BM

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