It actually is easy

Namari - Dreamweaver · October 2012

It is always gonna be easier to swipe a credit card, but what if you can't? I used to put money in this game, but at that time it was just me and my fiance (who used to play too). Now with a young baby who needs food, diapers, clothing, and other miscellaneous stuff, I'd be lucky if I can put 10 bucks in the game every 6 months if I wanted to.

Since I can't (and won't), I farm/merchant. When I came back from my break, my catshop account had 5 mil that I hadn't touched (oh packs, how you tempted me). I decided to do some merching and within a week, that 5 mil doubled. Within another week, I was sitting on another 5 mil on top of the 10 mil that I had. I used some of that extra profit to get my mystic her TT99 weapon. Now I'm starting to rebuild so that I can start setting up for my G16 gear (cannies for 2nd forge nirvana, shards, refines, etc). All the while, I'm playing for a few hours on my main in caster/bh/whatever. If I got a job that paid enough to be able to spend money on this game again, sure, I'd do it. But why would I spend $10,000 a year on this game when I can use it for something else like...you know? A bigger house? More clothes? A new shiny gaming laptop so I can play other games (and this one)? You get the idea.

Just do you. Some will take OP's advice, and others will go for the instant gratification that is cash shopping. But just remember that no two stories are alike.

/_Cura_ - Dreamweaver75 · October 2012

dolomit wrote: »

Your experiment is a little distorted:
a) almost 1 month was double drop - not common situation
b) you start a new char - with new reward form quest which PWI changed after reduced low DQ prices - not usefull (help) for chars, which are under lvl 100
c) what about learning pet skills? Did you spend money for them? Cause its an expensive part of veno, like high lvl gear for another chars
d) ok, veno is good solo char - but what about the others? This "way" is not possible for everyone - it much more expensive for the others - repair gear, more necessary skills, more deads means more time
e) it is a solo play - what about if you want to play with someone another - in duo for example? Quests are same, reward too, but drops a money only a half for you
f) it was only experiment - now you won't lvl veno to high lvls, but if it is you main, or you want to exp it higher, you can only sold everything - you need some mat for craft skills, mirage stones for enchancements, ... when you sell everything, you need to buy it back later.

This experiment was nice, but misleading.

Seriously can't you people just read the thread and take it for what it is without some negitive comment or bashing the author of the post? Honestly...

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It really depends on the given person's income level. I personally have no problem farming for something that'll yield say half of my real life income with similar time investment... simply because my real job actually requires higher brain function and pwi doesn't.

ex. I used to wake up for 1-2 hours every night of the week for 2-3 months straight farming world bosses, as the drops had a market value of 50-100 gold per day. I know some people do, but back in 08 I dont make 100/hour from my job. so farming is a thing for me. even today, i won't have a problem farming for something that'll yield me 100 gold/hour.

And how can newbies compete with such players ?

Even 1 gold per hour for me is maximum for any rate (2x or normal) .

Born_Again_ - Sanctuary · October 2012

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if you go full AA, you're not playing the class right. It's not meant to be a nuking class.

Every single veno player I have met that is PURE MAG/AA is pleased with their toon. b:pleased

Every single veno I have met with LA or HA build, regrets not going pure mag in endgame. b:sad

Players with LA/HA venos usually has an AA veno as main.

PS! I have 18 venos i play on 9 servers since closed beta, and all mains are AA PURE MAG (str for wep). b:bye

shawnswife · October 2012

I just want to say thank you to the person who started this thread. It was a great experiment and I think I will do something similar to yours to make some coin. Thanks again!!!

Reliea - Sanctuary · October 2012

Some of the responses to this makes me laugh.
Most of the people that say this is junk are basically telling him to cash-shop, because it's faster/more efficient.
So, what... you want to down-talk not cash shopping now? I'm confused.
The fact is this is a good idea; everyone can afford to make a free farmerveno and play for a few hours each week. Really though it doesn't have to be a veno, either the stabby fish or the magical fish could probably do this just as well, considering they most likely will get a fairly decent 'free' weapon; as someone who plays a fish as a solid alt, I hardly ever had high repair costs when I was little.

Once I did an experiment where I farmed and sold only the lowest mats/herbs for a few hours a day for a few weeks, and that did me enough to buy me the one thing that all low venos should get asap - a tome. Sure it wasn't fast or efficient, but I enjoyed myself and accomplished my goal.

The point being you can be completely f2p or even at a minimum get enough seed money to start merchanting something without buying gold IF you are patient and IF you enjoy doing what you're doing and IF you don't want to powerlevel.

Ambisagrus - Lost City · October 2012

All I can say is this:

In the time it took you to get to lvl 62, on and off of playing, I could of created a alt. Lvl'd it up to the heaven's tear level range (made it a veno, mystic, range class or w/e else) and farmed hay, and a few other wanted mats. Proceeded to take that farming low lvl and after obtaining about 400 of each item, probably within the first month, merchanted all of it off.

So instead of selling each item to a NPC for like 1-4k each, I merchant them making 10-15k off each item.

So 400 x 15,000 (giving higher end to show max possible profit) making it 6,000,000. That is just for the hay, one item gives me just a little over 400k less than what you made in 6 months, for 1 month

.....

Jaabg - Sanctuary · October 2012

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

And how can newbies compete with such players ?

Even 1 gold per hour for me is maximum for any rate (2x or normal) .

If you think you can compete against a person who was been playing for 3~4 years, and you just started playing and want to be at the same level, well, what can i say? Try killing a world boss, it is not as easy people make it out to be. There is often one in the pq 2~3 area that has no drops, people usually don't kill that, go with your friends and try it out. If you start merchanting, farming now, probably in 1~3 years, the gear will be at the same level.

Ambisagrus - Lost City wrote: »

All I can say is this:

In the time it took you to get to lvl 62, on and off of playing, I could of created a alt. Lvl'd it up to the heaven's tear level range (made it a veno, mystic, range class or w/e else) and farmed hay, and a few other wanted mats. Proceeded to take that farming low lvl and after obtaining about 400 of each item, probably within the first month, merchanted all of it off.

So instead of selling each item to a NPC for like 1-4k each, I merchant them making 10-15k off each item.

So 400 x 15,000 (giving higher end to show max possible profit) making it 6,000,000. That is just for the hay, one item gives me just a little over 400k less than what you made in 6 months, for 1 month .....

I can do that in 10~20 days compared to your 30 days with my archer (because farming hay is not fun), but that is not the OP's point b:surrender.

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you think you can compete against a person who was been playing for 3~4 years, and you just started playing and want to be at the same level, well, what can i say? ...

You not know, what is my join date and made wrong conclusions.

ShadowIH - Raging Tide · October 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you think you can compete against a person who was been playing for 3~4 years, and you just started playing and want to be at the same level, well, what can i say?
...

As you know (may be) each player can have many accounts.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

... If you start merchanting, farming now, probably in 1~3 years, the gear will be at the same level.

I can do that in 10~20 days compared to your 30 days with my archer (because farming hay is not fun), but that is not the OP's point b:surrender.

Probably, if I will start to work in this game each day for about not less than 8 hours (like crazy ?), then I will be able to do this.

Good, that exist games where I can play instead.

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver · October 2012

ShadowIH - Raging Tide wrote: »

As you know (may be) each player can have many accounts.

Only two. You also cannot change IPs halfway across the world too much, or else your account will be investigated for account selling/sharing, and possibly be banned. They do log all IPs of course.

ShadowIH - Raging Tide · October 2012

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Only two. You also cannot change IPs halfway across the world too much, or else your account will be investigated for account selling/sharing, and possibly be banned. They do log all IPs of course.

As I know, it is possible to have more than 2 accounts:

frankieraye wrote: »

You may only have 2 accounts per person, regardless of how many computers you own.

There isn't a viable reason to create an excessive number of accounts, so any suspicious activity from now on will be fully dealt with. We aren't going to punish you for having existing accounts prior to this rule, but you can only be online on two at once at the most.

XLeeu - Heavens Tear · October 2012

WOW - Never intended to make such a huge thing about this.
I just said that it is possible to make money without cash shopping.

To the people that understands the post and the methodology behind it - THANK YOU b:victory

To the people that dont..... o well......b:surrender

My appologies for creating a stir like this.

Just one or 2 things

1 - I am a HE ( b:chuckle )
2 - I played with Veno on average about 40 minutes every 2 or 3 days
3 - I still concentrated on my lvl 102 main, my 101 alt and my 2 x lvl 85 alts.
4 - Getting to lvl 60 can be done in 4 or 5 days I agree. That was not the intention though.
5 - Farming HAY can make lots of money - Once again that was not the idea.
6 - The idea was not to see HOW MUCH money you can make - But to see if you could make enough money to start a small business without real money poured into the game.
7 - I will never bash any-one saying they spend real money on the game - It is your choice.

The experiment is going on with regards to merchanting. I am currently ONLY doing rep badges - Thus far I have made 2 mil profit. ( cant sell more cause normal catshop has 2 or 3 slots less than lighter or something alike )

Once i hit 18mil I will go over to PoF's. After that (once i reach 40mil) I will do canny's only.

At 80 mil i will switch to packs.

YES I KNOW there are other ways of merchanting as well, but this is MY experiment.

Well that is the long term idea. It might actually work out so well that i could do it sooner rather than later.

Maybe just maybe i can make enough money to buy a certain some-one a case of Dr Peppers.......b:shutup

X

_Shakez_ - Lost City · October 2012

XLeeu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Over the past year or two I have seen so many posts about new people wanting to know how to make money etc

I have decided to test a theory I have and over the last 3 months this is what happened

I started a Veno and decided to do EVERY quest available to me. I ONLY used armour I got as rewards. BOUGHT NOTHING - Sorry I bought a picaxe. Thats was it.
during this time if mobs dropped better armour than what I was wearing I would swop it out and sell old armour.

In the three months I ONLY spend money on repair bills, egg hatching as well as learning skills.

EVERY single item that dropped I kept and NPC'ed.

This meant a lot of going back to town to clean inventory etc. Also I farmed evert mat and herb that I saw. Looked at catshops and sold it to them or to NPC if there was no market.

I have not used teleport once and either ran or flew where i wanted to be (slow damn 0.5 flyer hehehe ) Never bought a mount or anything.

3 month down the line and my veno is lvl 62. ( I did not play her every night as it was more a test than anything else ) What I have found is this:

LVL 62 and I have 6,251,228 coin. And that is after spending money on skills......b:pleased

I recon that with 6mil coin you can start a small marchant on high grade mats or cannies or even rep badges.

THUS - making money ingame is not EXTREMELY hard, it is however a test of patience and perseverance.

BTW - It is easier with a veno cause you dont need high lvl gears to effectively kill mobs - Your pet does that for you.

Just food for thought for the new guys : Money can be made, EASY money must be bought.b:victory

X

very nice will be doing this with my baby bm ty

Jaabg - Sanctuary · October 2012

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

You not know, what is my join date and made wrong conclusions.

Join date does not matter, it is the date when you had the realisation, i need more money like those other people, that is the date that matters. For some people it was within a week of joining, for me it was a year later. So i don't need to know join dates, it's an illustration example where one person is ahead by either 1) spending money, or 2) playing for longer at the money level, to reach that level you have to do either 1 or 2 or both to catch up.

For example you and i started in 2009 January. End of january we are similar level, but you have 70m because you merchanted and i have 4~5m.

2010 december you get r8 gear, i scrape by with tt90 gear, and i begin to see that your merchanting works.

2011 you have r9, and i just get r8.

2012 you are full josd r9 +10, i get a weapon for r9 and maybe some pieces.

That is what i talking about, some people realised things earlier on so they have an advantage. Others invested money so they have an advantage. For me to catch up, i need to merchant more than you or i need to spend more than to you to catch up. That is how "newbies" can compete, or they can be patient.

ShadowIH - Raging Tide wrote: »

As you know (may be) each player can have many accounts.

Probably, if I will start to work in this game each day for about not less than 8 hours (like crazy ?), then I will be able to do this.

Good, that exist games where I can play instead.

If you know more than 2 accounts can exist, you might be aware of a few other things like botting. Make a veno/s and bot away. If you want to break rules might as well have knowledge of them all. I wouldn't recommend to others breaking these rules, but if you want to, no one can stop you, just don't post on the forums about the bans b:bye. The point raised was that of making fast money by farming. Farming = time, so yes if i spend 16 hours playing, i will get more mats than someone spending 2 hours. If your leisure time is precious and don't want to spend 16 hours on this game, sure there are alternatives in my post where i explained that. I fail to see the argument, you acquire some pleasure from playing this game some hours, but not a whole lot more, why begrudge someone else who puts in more time than you to play? That is like saying, why did the kid with 50 dollars get more candy than me when i spent 5 dollars? So as you can see, you affirm what i said in my earlier post.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · October 2012

Reliea - Sanctuary wrote: »

The point being you can be completely f2p or even at a minimum get enough seed money to start merchanting something without buying gold IF you are patient and IF you enjoy doing what you're doing and IF you don't want to powerlevel.

I think the point is that all whinners want to play for free... not farm... and end up on equal footing as someone with +12 r9.

Kinjeto - Raging Tide · October 2012

Hey I make 3~5 Gold a day and have most of the stuff stated for 'endgame' and I've really only ever spent like 50 USD just to open up character slots. Its easy to make money. No wait Im talking about where you buy the box and don't have to pay gateway stuff like charms, overpowered armor and power creep.

b:laugh

Ambisagrus - Lost City · October 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you think you can compete against a person who was been playing for 3~4 years, and you just started playing and want to be at the same level, well, what can i say? Try killing a world boss, it is not as easy people make it out to be. There is often one in the pq 2~3 area that has no drops, people usually don't kill that, go with your friends and try it out. If you start merchanting, farming now, probably in 1~3 years, the gear will be at the same level.

I can do that in 10~20 days compared to your 30 days with my archer (because farming hay is not fun), but that is not the OP's point b:surrender.

I said on/off playing, like the OP stated they did with the veno they used. That is why I gave a 30 days time frame instead of like 4-5.

thumbs · October 2012

XLeeu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I started a Veno and decided to do EVERY quest available to me.

Sorry but you wasted your time on some quests like One Man Army

I ONLY used armour I got as rewards.

-Strictly a veno thing

BOUGHT NOTHING - Sorry I bought a picaxe. Thats was it.

Skills are worthy investments

In the three months I ONLY spend money on repair bills, egg hatching as well as learning skills.

I bought something for 10k and sold it for 5m

EVERY single item that dropped I kept and NPC'ed.

How many low level items sell for ~10* what they NPC for?

This meant a lot of going back to town to clean inventory etc.

You should have bought a super inventory stone: time is money.

Also I farmed evert mat and herb that I saw.

You'd be better off picking up coin drops from other people's kills than picking some herbs.

I have not used teleport once and either ran or flew where i wanted to be (slow damn 0.5 flyer hehehe ) Never bought a mount or anything.

It's stupid not to use some teleports. Again; time is money and some teleports are negligible cost or free.

LVL 62 and I have 6,251,228 coin. And that is after spending money on skills......b:pleased

Others have acquired Hercs or Nix's by then.

THUS - making money ingame is not EXTREMELY hard, it is however a test of patience and perseverance.

You could stick a toothpick in the pickup button at the Headhunter or S.Archo banker and sell what you pick up for coin. There is no challenge whatsoever if that's the way you want to play.

Xainou - Sanctuary · October 2012

Eh, it's not like I'm a spoiled cash shopper. Sure, OPs method is doable. But is it efficient?

Hell, no. The time spent on doing all quests and collection all that stuff versus mowing someones lawn for the rl equivalent of your 6 mill coin?

Of course it's different in different countries and situations. And I understand that not everyone can aford to pay cash. But yea, if you see it as a starting capital to merchant way bigger cash, it's just ridiculous to me. b:surrender

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

...
If you know more than 2 accounts can exist, you might be aware of a few other things like botting. Make a veno/s and bot away. If you want to break rules might as well have knowledge of them all. I wouldn't recommend to others breaking these rules, but if you want to, no one can stop you, just don't post on the forums about the bans b:bye. The point raised was that of making fast money by farming. Farming = time, so yes if i spend 16 hours playing, i will get more mats than someone spending 2 hours. If your leisure time is precious and don't want to spend 16 hours on this game, sure there are alternatives in my post where i explained that. I fail to see the argument, you acquire some pleasure from playing this game some hours, but not a whole lot more, why begrudge someone else who puts in more time than you to play? That is like saying, why did the kid with 50 dollars get more candy than me when i spent 5 dollars? So as you can see, you affirm what i said in my earlier post.

Sorry, but this quote about bots and accounts is not for me. I had read TOS (Terms of Service) and know how to play without breaking them. Also my main is Wizard, so I reply from this account.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Join date does not matter, it is the date when you had the realisation, i need more money like those other people, that is the date that matters. For some people it was within a week of joining, for me it was a year later. So i don't need to know join dates, it's an illustration example where one person is ahead by either 1) spending money, or 2) playing for longer at the money level, to reach that level you have to do either 1 or 2 or both to catch up.

For example you and i started in 2009 January. End of january we are similar level, but you have 70m because you merchanted and i have 4~5m.

2010 december you get r8 gear, i scrape by with tt90 gear, and i begin to see that your merchanting works.

2011 you have r9, and i just get r8.

2012 you are full josd r9 +10, i get a weapon for r9 and maybe some pieces.

That is what i talking about, some people realised things earlier on so they have an advantage. Others invested money so they have an advantage. For me to catch up, i need to merchant more than you or i need to spend more than to you to catch up. That is how "newbies" can compete, or they can be patient.
...

I had never any interest for full-time work in "Perfect" world international.

I had been at last stage where it is possible to play for any of my characters.

And R8 for me is so unrealistic, as pleasure from work in "Perfect" world international.

I know, that it is endless process of money making for more and more tiny advancement of your character (cost of +1 refinement level is nothing in comparison with +12 refinement level of equipment, for example).

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2012

XLeeu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LVL 62 and I have 6,251,228 coin. And that is after spending money on skills......b:pleased

X

But you're not done with skills yet.

And 6mil lasts someone 100+ maybe a few minutes

.

augustfinknottle · October 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Of course it's different in different countries and situations. And I understand that not everyone can aford to pay cash. But yea, if you see it as a starting capital to merchant way bigger cash, it's just ridiculous to me. b:surrender

You can start your way merchanting small amounts of DQ items, far less than 4mil worth of coins. If you're competent and persistent, you'll work your way up. So I don't see how 4mil is impossible to use as a kickstarter to that.

The point of OP is that if you just play this game with the bare minimum to do stuff without dying all the time, the game actually rewards you with more than you'll spend. My barb was my first toon, ever. I had never played any other MMO. Still, by lvl 60, I had something around 3 million coins. And I had an awesome 3* armor from bosses and TT60. They were more than enough to deal with the game requirements in any instance I needed to go. And still, I had 3 million coins extra. Just from playing naturally. And barbs aren't exactly the cheapest class to play.

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

augustfinknottle wrote: »

You can start your way merchanting small amounts of DQ items, far less than 4mil worth of coins. If you're competent and persistent, you'll work your way up. So I don't see how 4mil is impossible to use as a kickstarter to that.

The point of OP is that if you just play this game with the bare minimum to do stuff without dying all the time, the game actually rewards you with more than you'll spend. My barb was my first toon, ever. I had never played any other MMO. Still, by lvl 60, I had something around 3 million coins. And I had an awesome 3* armor from bosses and TT60. They were more than enough to deal with the game requirements in any instance I needed to go. And still, I had 3 million coins extra. Just from playing naturally. And barbs aren't exactly the cheapest class to play.

Please, reply to newbie Wizard at our forum, because you know so much about it:

_Rysan_ - Lost City wrote: »

Well i just choose wiz to be my new beloved main, i like it an all but its just that i dont know to much about what becomes of you guys at higher lvls the last i heard was that you hit pretty hard and oneshot some classes depending on lvl and gear and that you guys have it hard and even with caster NV here now seem you still cant even go until you get a "decent" wep thats refined to 10 soooooooo my question is what do you guys do before you get the badass refines? Im gonna try to merchant but i SUCK at it soooo is there anything more pve orientated that i can do for money on the side or will i only worth something in squads until i get something like a +5 lunar wep so i can atleast be able to AOE grind alone until i get IF i get a +10 wep that is acceptable along with 5khp (which is tempting me to put some vit in XD)?

Although im in a pvp server and i LOVE pvp im thinking about going for this since its free and seems awsome but i want you guys to let me know if its worth it or should i cough up the dough and buy some TT or something (i have no problem with going with the pve gear when i go pvp il just uses npc or something else for fun)

Just confused as to how you guys survive XD

XLeeu - Heavens Tear · October 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

But yea, if you see it as a starting capital to merchant way bigger cash, it's just ridiculous to me. b:surrender

Just an update for those interested :

Currently the Veno is standing on 11 459 388 coinThat means in past 3 days i have made a profit of just over 5.2mil

Kinda makes you think that with this experiment you can feed your mains.....IF you do not cash shop.

YET - I will keep onto the coin and re-invest. Will keep you posted.

FYI - I know i said I will only do rep badges, however yesterday running through the catshops at forges i found a catshop selling Forushas Arms at 160k each - I bought 44 of them - Resold at 225k each. Sold out overnight so made a decent profit of roughly 2.3mil there as well.

Anyway Catshop is now on almost permanantly - ( if i do have stock heheheh ) b:chuckle

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

XLeeu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
Anyway Catshop is now on almost permanantly - ( if i do have stock heheheh ) b:chuckle

This is solution for all players may be (24 hours catshop).

I like to know how many hundreds players will be able to do same as you (everyone can calculate it himself at market square of Arch) .
Edit:
As I remember (looking at screenshot at my memory) it is less than 100.

TempleSlave - Lost City · October 2012

XLeeu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

WOW - Never intended to make such a huge thing about this.
I just said that it is possible to make money without cash shopping.

How much time did it take you to make how much money?

Anyway Catshop is now on almost permanantly - ( if i do have stock heheheh )

A lot of people who can't afford to spend money, and those in other countries with horribly expensive internet with low bandwidth caps can't afford to leave a shop running 24/7.

Seriously, if you can't afford to spend the time to make money in game, cash shopping has made it cheaper.

This isn't the same game as it was 2+ years ago.

Seriously, some of the knee-jerk responses from the habitually obsessed here are as funny as they are sad.

Gravediggr - Dreamweaver · October 2012

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So you nuke and take aggro from your pet a lot? :P

you obviously know nothing about playing a veno...veno hits hard enough to kill a mob fast enough to prevent getting hit should she pull aggro... and a proper built veno isn't HA...venos aren't meant to be HA...normaly venos are AA or LA

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver · October 2012

Gravediggr - Dreamweaver wrote: »

normaly venos are AA

No need to post LA there. The game's system files (IE: Rank IX Gear) point to venos optimally being AA, and being a nuke class, which is ignoring over half of the veno skills if you go just AA. Fox form is almost useless in AA, as you don't get enough boost from it to matter. Since this is the case, AMP is thus useless.

However, since we have the ability to change the build ever so slightly for your LA:

http://pwcalc.com/5f4af82e1f71c724

It can be a versatile class as I have pointed out with HA as well. Sure, you have barely any Elemental defense if you go full HA, but that shouldn't really matter, right? Since most people go sin. Not to mention that Morai bramble skill you get from Luminance, which works on Archer attacks, and stacks with normal bramble/hood. It's too bad that the Shroud pet buff doesn't last too long either. it'd surely make it so you don't steal aggro as an AA Veno.

Xainou - Sanctuary · October 2012

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No need to post LA there. The game's system files (IE: Rank IX Gear) point to venos optimally being AA, and being a nuke class, which is ignoring over half of the veno skills if you go just AA.

Right. By that logic, clerics are a nuke class too.

LA venos are pretty much a joke. You're trading off even more magic for the crappiest defenses of all armor types. And the crit does hardly make up for it.
AA or AA/HA are viable builds.

I don't see much relation between fox form and your armor type. Unless you want to spam normal attacks that is. lol

Stop giving out crappy veno advice, seriously ><

It actually is easy

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