Should i go full R9 or 5.0 APS as an Archer??

Agree here completely.

Its really annoying when an R9 archer switches to fists....their dmg drops off so much its not even funny

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

3. A sin can share the same gear as our archer since they are also LA and be a MUCH more effective aps class.

Good luck getting a sin wearing R9 archer armor.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Good luck getting a sin wearing R9 archer armor.

I would imagine Jen was thinking more along the lines of "If you're going to get the aps gear, a sin would do a better job with those".

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The title clearly says R9 archer. Unlike sin and BM R9 archer armor has int.

Yes but not enough to be 5.0 purely in full r9 armor.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes but not enough to be 5.0 purely in full r9 armor.

No but demons can be 5.0 with, what, four parts of the armour?


I'd say go full R9 and have aps gear too. Why any archer would give up the versatility of aps is beyond me. I would much rather have an archer that I can use for TW (r9) and then have fun with friends in nirvy (aps) vs having a dead-end fish that is only for PvE.

Just my two cents, anyway.


EDIT: I should have read to the bottom. Asterelle already covered what I said far more eloquently. \o/

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nah you can be 5.0 with full armor without the belt. If you want to keep the belt you can swap the chest.

Actually you can't do it because youre sage but most archers can.

The benefit of a 5.0 archer is versatility. A 5.0 archer is the only 5.0 build with a continuous AOE. With R9 ring + R9 attack levels R9 5.0 archers do more DPS than a typical BM using the same weapon but still have ranged abilities.

With ring engraving you don't even need to restat dex into str these days so there is no harm to bow damage.

Debatable :P

Just because I'm sage just means I need -.1 more interval then you to be cap aps from a sparking standpoint.

Show me a calc where the r9 archer does more damage then a BM with the same amount coin invested into his APS gear.

There's no way a BM will be out DPS'd by an archer even with the 10 attack level advantage from r9.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would imagine Jen was thinking more along the lines of "If you're going to get the aps gear, a sin would do a better job with those".

This.

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, and Asterelle was making the point that demons can be 5.0 with four parts of rank 9 armour whereas sages cannot. I think he understands fairly well that sages need more -int, but the point still stands. No sage archer can wear four parts of r9 armour and be 5.0

I can still do it with 3. The only difference is 10 attack levels. Big deal. I'll stick to my sin which will out damage any aps archer.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The 4 piece R9 set bonus is 10 attack levels. If you have a -.1 weapon you can have that plus 5 attack levels from NV helm + cape plus 8 attack levels from R9 belt and cube neck. It's the highest attack level 5.0 setup of any class.

K meanwhile every other APS class has a higher damage multiplier from having more stat points affiliated into their weapon damage and a higher base damage.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

K meanwhile every other APS class has a higher damage multiplier from having more stat points affiliated into their weapon damage and a higher base damage.

Mathematically it doesn't benefit them as much as you'd think.

BM 350 str, 25% crit, demon mastery, demon sparked, 35 attack level
(1+350/150+.75+5)*(1.25)*1.35 = 13.9

R9 archer 150 str, 40% crit, blazing arrow, demon sparked, 53 attack level
(1+150/150+.4+5)*(1.4)*1.53 = 15.8

Archer is ahead but it evens up if they are using G16 weapons:

BM (1+350/150+.75+5)*(1.25)*1.75 = 19.9
Archer (1+150/150+.4+5)*(1.4)*1.93 = 20.0

I agree sin is more DPS but R9 archer DPS is hardly bad if its as good as a BMs.

You can do both with no sacrifice. The builds are not mutually exclusive.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1286181


The only limitation is coin and some luck with Ring Engraving.


KawaiiJen's argument that Assassins do better is a valid one. The lack of Bloodpaint, in my opinion, is not a real argument. If you can afford R9, then obviously you can afford things like higher refines and charms.

From my personal experience, I can say that I usually had aggro whenever I did Nirvana runs. This included faction and pickup groups. This was when I had my +10 2nd stage Nirvana claws that had a +20 attack level bonus. I was normally out-damaging assassins and BMs. The only times I did lose aggro were due to other archers (I met 1) or to assassins (I met 3). No BM I came across out-damaged me.

Can BMs out-damage archers with fists/claws? Yes? Maybe? Probably? The short answer is "I don't care." You deal enough damage to keep aggro, and no one is going to criticize you. From a practical standpoint, this happens often in pickup groups and all that.

Gorenox Vanity and Deicides are about the same at +10 (reference link). TT100 fists are not worth it. Nirvana 1st stage is the same as Deicides, so only 2nd and 3rd stage are worth refining high.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Don't forget the damage reduction from exceeding 4.0 aps as well as the fact the BM has HF to boost the Squads DPS as well as his own much further then the archers 5min cooldown Bloodvow.

My main thought behind it, is why sacrifice points into str when you can have those in dex. You claim you can get the extra str needed without sacrificing dex. But I've looked it over and going from my base 73 str to getting over 150 str isn't possible to me.

I have over 560 green dex atm.

Now of course from the beggining I said this is purely my opinion. I figured overall the investment into a sin giving my archers old gear from Pre rank and nirvana was a better choice then gearing an aps archer overall.

No point in factoring in that damage reduction when it applies to everyone equally. If a BM casts HF it just makes my DPS higher and his lower! Archers also bring tooth to the mix which is good in every instance but silly Nirvana.

I am actually mildly curious whats your gear setup to get from 73 str to 105 str to wear R9 armor but anyway the difference between 105 str and 146 str is 41 points. With ring engraving its very easy to get +14 str rings cheaply (though I have a friend with a hax +24 str ring). With two of those you get 28 str and the other 13 points can come from hat or cape or neck.

Really though the benefit of squeezing in a bit of dex is often less than the 2% crit benefit demon archers get from wearing white wings. Most don't bother with that because the white wings don't look cool. (BTW the 2% crit from white wings works with 5.0)

As gear evolves the minimum str you need for 5.0 becomes less important. G16 nirvana gear gives a lot of dex as does third cast R9 (+100 dex there) and the new tomes that are coming. There is a -.05 tome in the PWCN expansion that has +45dex and +45str. Going forward archers will get more and more dex and the marginal importance of squeezing in a little more dex drops significantly. Looking at some of the new gear its not hard to imagine a time where it will no longer be possible to restat STR into DEX but the game will probably be dead by then.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am actually mildly curious whats your gear setup to get from 73 str to 105 str to wear R9 armor but anyway the difference between 105 str and 146 str is 41 points. With ring engraving its very easy to get +14 str rings cheaply (though I have a friend with a hax +24 str ring). With two of those you get 28 str and the other 13 points can come from hat or cape or neck.

To anwser your question.

I got 10 from one of my ring engravements
13 from my Tome
and 9 from my cape. (G16ed them both now we had a chikeun stone sale)

My orginal intention wasn't so much squeezing dex for that tiny bit of damage dex gives but approaching the 600 mark for another solid damage multiplier.

Sadly after doing more calcuations I see it is impossible without sacrificing ornaments to have dex on it or getting our version of R9 S3.

As for the rest thats what opinions and playstyle is for. You could argue that if they can afford r9 they can afford a fish stick as those are cheap to gear up.

For your amusement. Unfortunately I sharded Vits before we knew what JoSD could do so I'm saving up for those now.
http://www.pwcalc.com/0850cbe68f099a1c

witniss wrote: »

How much pvp/pve do you do?

Mostly my PvP comes from TW. I also do team PK and 1v1s.

As for PvE I pretty much only do dailies.

If anything needs to be farmed requiring my sin I use that instead.

If you can afford R9, it's a drop in the bucket to get pieces to complete 5.0
You sacrifice very slight bow damage(to even slighter depending on engraving etc.) for versatility.

Not absolutely necessary, but very useful.

also, this has been argued TO DEATH

Well...Blazing is only 50%/60% weapon damage to BM's 75%/90% weapon mastery. It helps make up the difference somewhat, yes, but BMs still have the strength stat bonus.

The extra strength would probably add anywhere between 100% to 167% extra weapon damage depending on how much strength they have (this is assuming 300 strength - 400 strength)

However, a very important factor is the crit rate difference. Remember you're raising DPS by taking a percentage of freaking 3 sparked base damage, so your extra DPS from crits means a lot. Looking at high end archer crit rates of 40+% to BMs maybe 20%, it's no wonder that claw archers can match or even surpass BM DPS.