So...Now that barbs are needed again~

What changed for barbs?

Even before the change; I was building my barb up. I just couldn't understand the dismay other barbs were having during the aps craze. There were only a few barbs it seemed that valued their contribution as a puller / aoe god and they were the ones I jumped at the opportunity to squad with.

The new power? -Love it! Would have been happy without it.

Wait. Where are they "needed"?

Choose carefully, given the definition of the word "needed".

Trinica - Momaganon wrote: »

Us sins are the most hated...but the meanest comments I see around here are BMs b:laugh

Our squad is happy to have our own barb that knows his class well and does some really cool stuff.
He gets a bit pull crazy at times and we need to discipline him...but otherwise, kitty is awesome.

And no idea why I posted this on my GFs character.

Its habit, last time barbs went on ego trips they started demanding exorbitant fee's for doing things like TT (first pick on everything getting the gold mat to themselves etc) any DPS class that played in ye olden days learned to run just about every instance no barb. Dps's got tanky and super DPSy, barbs got emo and refused to change (I loves chu clawbarians though) now the bads need barbs again.

So ya rubbing the not needed factor in vit barbs faces in pve is traditional for anyone who's seen a +2 leg 79/77 barb try and **** the gold mat from a tt.

To be fair though I also developed a hate for powermad clerics as well

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

....

<- tt99 with OHT helm and vana pants, rank 9 is kinda pve overkill dude

I know you didnt even try calling me pay to play sir >.>. Much has been lost on my break, much barb pretension has built up, much shall be muchly done.

A year ago 90% of bh 100 ran with a barb, now 90% of bh 100 runs with barbs. Nobody cares what +3 tt 90 people use in their squads at 100. Regardless of game progress the same derps are still derps.

The amount of idiotic bm's/sins is at least equal to that of derpbarbs I'll admit but tbh the new content is really no harder than the old with a bit of competence and timing. This =/= more need for barbs but more need for players t learn their classes, but since learning a class takes minimal effort most choose to nuthug the hell out of barbs

1 more frontal aggro skill, joy, now go arma for aoe aggro or if its a boss put on fists (bramble/hit buff bosses excluded)

TL:DR none of the new content is harder than all boss solo/duo 3-3 or say a barbless delta, barbs are nice if played well (and carrying claws) but past even the opening stages of endgame gear they become optional.

instead of building a claw barb you can make a 600 str barb and boila u can keep agro with ur ream in tiger even when bm sparking if doen right.

sure vit build are not great still bit if you would say make a pure str barb why would you need claws to keep agro for a 2 sec killing boss

done so on abba boss with 4 sin and a bm hf and me and woot i did hold agro

so again what claws

StarStrukkk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Consider a rainbow squad for SoT/Abba, or even just a squad with less than average gear for metal. IE TT 99, or even r8. (Which most people have, because they cant afford r8, or know how to merch, or make money in the game)

If done right, SoT/Abba boss dies just after the first HF. Even with TT90/99 gear. Get more DDs. Bring a Veno if you really want. OP squads aren't needed.

StarStrukkk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A squad with those gears in Metal for example, will not be able to kill the boss fast enough before he flips his nuts, each time he frenzies it gets stronger, with a barb, you lose a little extra DD power, so you will kill a bit slower, but at the same time you have more sustain due to the barbs skills (Invoke, and the Genie skill that acts like Invoke)
giving the squad more sustain. This is just an example, of course there are other methods of sustain.

I watch +5 to +7 TT99ish BMs with Deicides tank this just fine. +7ish sins too with +10 Dags. Skill, decentish gear, utilization of def charms, utilization of pots, utilization of genie skills. The boss dies in 60-30 seconds typically. Again, OP squads aren't needed - just play your class well.

StarStrukkk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

SoT/Aba, I am still not quite sure what how they quite work, but most times when other classes other than the barb pull, the person gets one shot where the boss is dealing 30k damage lol.

Unbuffed, sure. Hell Ive seen barbs die to this. Be buffed, use a def charm, use an immune pot or skill, even Sins are fine.

StarStrukkk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

He also goes into a frenzy when he is dealt a certain amount of damage, and the easiest way to achieve that is by APSing, so most BMs/Sins try to restrain themselves from using APS, if theres no barb, then who will be holding aggro? Aggro would be flipping from the BM to the Sin or Between sins.

Wrong again. Chaining skills. Even with my TT90 axes doing this I out aggro most barbs and tank just fine. And this is if you **** up and don't kill the boss in like 20 seconds or less.

StarStrukkk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If the squad is rocking tt90-99-r8, I dont think they can handle the boss. Again their are other methods of sustain, but there won't always be the "perfect coordinated squad" Or when making a squad you won't always find the classes you want/need.

I see it all the time, even in non optimal squads.

Bottom line is even Barbs die with bad skills of self and team, and even bad gear on the Barb. I've been called in several times on my BM (Yes, hes OP) to tank all the BHs for friends, where the barb was having a bad day, or the barb/bm rage quit, or they couldn't find a tank and are at the boss.

A decent geared BM will usually outaggro a well geared Barb. They survive just fine if they aren't idiots. In the cases of sins, they can behave and let someone else tank, or if they are good enough, just tank it. BB, Falling Petals, and Heal Plants work just fine if someone does not have the HP/Def but can keep the aggro.

But really...buffs. 90% of the time I hear of fail because of lack of Cleric buffs, Barb Buffs, and BP.

So you're wrong. Stating this is nonsense and shows your direct inexperience with these bosses. PWI needs to up the aggro of Barb aggro skills - period. Otherwise they're just buff alts or cat pullers. And thats lame.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Needed or simply more appreciated, I did notice a difference on barb when it comes to squads. And I'm glad about that. I'm glad they made the bosses lvl?, cause it helps on aggro a bit. I don't have much problems on that part. Those who can't tank, will hold back, and if they don't, to bad for them b:laugh

I also tank bh on bm/sin, so I know barbs aren't strictly needed. But at least now, when there is 1 in squad, no other class will tell the kitty to not go 1st. It's funny though that so many bm are here on some kind of anti-barb action.

On the fistbarb thing... It's just stupid to say a barb is supposed to have fists. It's equally silly as being opposed to other barbs using fists. I tried it, and glad I'm back to vit build now. I really didn't find the fists worth the hp loss. I know the fists have their use, but not in my case. On top of that, Sanc have mainly fail fistbarbs that shapeshift to "aps" every damn mob to dead.

@ Maelael : the problem for most sins is the bleed (not 1st time, but after deaden nerves it is). You can put all the plants and goodies you want, but many sins and even some bm/seekers, just get 1shot by the initial tick. And since it's a bleed based on hp majorly, it's just good hp and def that can tank the bosses. After barb, bm is the easiest class to tank aba/seat bosses on. Yet, most bm ingame don't have the knowledge of phys marrow like on forums.

Never seen the bleed kill anyone - ever. 3 Spark always removes it, same with cleric. Its like Light/Dark boss in AEU. Either purge or die if you have that low of HP.

Although, it could be I've rarely seen these sorta mishaps because...I don't go with a Barb and Im tanking. Ive heard of many, but only seen two sure-fire fails - I tanked after they died (Barb and Sin who demanded!).

Of course, it's common to find most barbs 20k and below for HP. Common I see is 16k on clawbarians. I've seen fistbarb work for farming, but it's like Archers with claws. Nobody wants em for any farming unless theyre a friend.

And yea...I know with the BMs *rolls eyes* Although I totally forget my marrow in TW half the time, so I can't talk smack in that specific arena...

If need to post with my barb I will, trust me its not a BM thing. It's a I'm pissed I have to play my BM instead of my Barb if I wanna tank in good squads.

Which also brings us back to...not *needed*.

Many squads may want one, but I'll be honest - every time I go "Hey I can tank it as a BM" with those squads who want/demand a barb - I'm chewin down crabmeat, charm ticking, and its the LONGEST FIGHT EVER on those bosses. It's the players, not the class. I can go with the same squad makeup with similar or lesser gear and it goes better.

When I do go places with Barbs (super, duper rare) the following happens:
-The Barb demands to be given 15-30 seconds to solo gain aggro on the boss (coulda been dead in that time) - Me or a really OP sin ends up with aggro anyways.
-Pro Barb in R9 KINDA takes aggro on and off. (Arma on HF omg...doesn't last long though)
-Barb doesn't even try for aggro, and just kinda mopes through the fight(s)
-Barb doesn't even try for aggro, but goes all out DD wise (awesome!)
-Pro Barb in R8r/N3/GoF gear goes full out, everything they have, Pots, genie skills, runes, yadda yadda, including resetting aggro through long fights to keep aggro. Still doesn't keep aggro much, but more back and forth than the Pro Barb in R9.
-Barb at least pulls but otherwise does what they can.
-Barb is a buff alt (95%)

On my barb, if the squad is pro, I usually go for the second Pro Barb style (All out skills, good gear). Expensive, but its all we got, yo. I could restat to strength for a bit better aggro control (still wasted vs higher aps toons), but something about 25k hp at 95 makes me want to touch no-nos.

All of that could be improved by ONE thing. Just ONE thing: Improving aggro generation on aggro skills for Barbs. They can add in AFK XP Sampling, give more skills to Sins, but they can't just double the value of Barb aggro generation? Come on.

Edit: "But at least now, when there is 1 in squad, no other class will tell the kitty to not go 1st." - I do. But Im 90% Crazy and 10% picky because most Barbs never pull enough mobs. Save a few barbs (most R9/R8r/N3 Barbs don't do dailies anymore, they have Sin/Psy/BM alts for that) I run into, my BM also tends to take the damage from the bosses better due to gear and sharding. Because my TW toon is PvE viable at the same time.

Of note, if you ever run into Roids on HT, that's an example of a Barb who can whoop major {Bleep} without the super OP gear. TW and PvE. I'd take him over a DD or another BM in RB any day.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Makes me wonder how much hp you have...

All the aggro is, sorry to say, just a silly rant if you ask me. At least, for aba and seat. On seat, it's very rare others get aggro. It happens, if some DD has R9/G16 +10~12. But then they should be able to tank that boss. On aba, if they have the power to get aggro off before 2nd bleed, it means the boss will be down before the 2nd bleed anyway. I wish you were on my server to get aggro off my barb with your TT90 axes. I know my bm get's aggro off some barbs, but far from all. And that is with G15 hammers, and ofc, I don't hold back cause I can easily tank the bosses.

All in all, I find the bm posts here anti-barb just to be anti-barb. Maybe trying to get even for the old days where barbs were kings, even if a bm could tank just as fine... Ingame, my constatation is exactly opposite from here. Most are convinced they need a barb. Even some players with the gear to actually tank the bosses (hard to even get a bm to try it).

Buffed, 14k in APS gear, 20k in R9. Did Aba again tonight, as long as I was APSing or Spark Axe Spamming (G16 and R9), I had aggro vs two Sage Barbs. The fight went looooong but thats cause we had a newbie who didnt stop attacking during the buff - and it was at like 2% when it healed with first buff. Sadly, if the 2nd barb was a DD it would have died before it buffed the first time. I tanked the rest after I switched outta R9 in my aps armor with BB up and full buffs, charm ticked 1 time on one of the stops. Fight felt like 12 mintues, but I think we went through 10ish buff cycles (yea...took us a while to get the message out cause we werent really 2+2ing well)

Buuut...Ive had to run a cleric several times and have watched the 10-12k +7 - +10BM crowd tank both just fine without a charm tick, same with some Sins.

I was ripping aggro from barbs with G13 +12 Claws in Seat and Aba (I have G16 now). I couldn't tell ya how well lower stuff like deicides would go (my days with those predate the change by afar). Ill hit up a friend who isn't all DoTs and has a set of +7 and +10 deicides and see what he says. Dont think hes sold the +7s yet.

Similar geared Barbs (TT99/TT90) Ive ripped aggro off of with axe spam....but my APS armor at the time was 75% DoT and 25% Vit Stones. Crit and zerks are mainly is what makes that happen, after a few of those it's just done unless aggro is reset. Even stashed to my barb, my GXs are possessed, they zerk a lot. G15 hammers, doubt I could do it with my GXs if you've got em +10'ed or better and at least spike hit once - and especially if youre a STR Barb. Theres a few R9 STR Barbs Ive grouped with, theres no way in hell Im getting it off them with GXs, and doubtful in R9 - but I can try if I group with them again. Its pretty much a given Ive got aggro (or the insane Wiz does) if I have claws/fists out.

Im kinda curious if the new Morai skill really helps or not in the skill spam situations - but really the overall concern is APS.

And naw **** that, I want barbs back tanking. I enjoyed those days on my Barb and my BM. Back in the day I dropped my BM for a Barb cause I couldn't tank on the BM anymore (85, Pre APS days). Played Barb for a while, quit, came back during APS craze. Got Barb to 92...and he couldn't tank reliably anymore. So I went back to the BM. I'd like it if both are viable. I really enjoy pulling, tanking, and AoEing.

So yea. I mean it's kewl and all people believe they need Barbs for those. But its just not true. And Id hate for PWI reps - who apparently dont actually log in and play by the looks of their forum posts - to get the idea they did something to help out barbs. Cause they didn't fix the issue, they just changed up some things that made it harder for the underplayed/undergeared people, and made them hard/impossible to solo. Which is a good thing on the hard/impossible to solo, but it doesn't help me feel any better about my barb.

Wouldnt it be awesome if Barb skills could hold off +10 - +12 DoT APSers without problems? Or vs R9 Wizzies/Psys/Archers going full out? I do miss the old days.

The bleed is pretty brutal but can be countered in a few ways, the simplest being triple spark. For my character it tends to be between 1500-3k damage per tick (3 seconds), so 500-1k hp per second. That's after the initial attack that deals several thousand hp.

That's pretty hard to tank. Especially since the bleed isn't effected by defense levels and as a DoT often occurs in conjuncture with other attacks.

Not to mention, both bosses have other effects that can work for a quick kill. The Aba boss will buff itself to increase its damage depending on how many hit it takes. I've seen this occur when I was tank on my sin. I stopped attacking when the boss buffed herself but the bm didn't although I kept aggro. A couple seconds later I was hit by a 17k attack -.- Sometimes, the boss isn't tankable because of your squad.

The other bosses buffs against auto attacks. This drastically decreases paint return, something many of us depend on when tanking. It also makes aggro somewhat unpredictable without a barb since it becomes more about skill damage. This means if you are the tank and sparking to purify against the bleed you may not be sparked when the bm HFs, or if you are BM you may not be able to HF for your squad since you are saving your sparks for the triple spark. On the plus side, when the bleed happens you are given about 150 chi.




So, a few techniques I use for tanking on non-barb chars:

For a sin, obviously, use Deaden Nerves and Rib Strike. Get the cleric to stack you before you first aggro because that hit is a doozy. Combine IH stack + Deaden Nerves and you are at full health immediately. Triple spark right after aggroing and hopefully resist the first attack/bleed or at least purify it. AD also works but empties your genie. On the Aba boss its up to you if you'd like to Inner Harmony+Subsea and try to kill before it goes into its buff cycle. If you can't kill it before then try and save IH and RDS for the bleed purify or time his first big attack after each buff cycle. I've had Aba squads with no barb and a demon veno that I just asked the cleric to ignore the bb and pdef debuff first instead, that way we'll kill before the buff cycle starts. Paint works fine for heals until you have to sit there and tank without attacking.

At Aba, ask the cleric to follow you in and bb there. The boss buffs about 30 seconds after he is first aggroed and if you spend 20 of that pulling the boss back to a bb you only get 10 seconds to kill. If you have the killing power then do it before he can buff.

Physical marrow. The bleed is physical. I believe the first attack of both bosses is physical (not 100% sure since I've had a big range in numbers, but generally reduced). And both bosses have a short physical aoe.

Chill of the Deep and skill spam on the seat boss. For me this works better than triple spark->Auto, and between RDS and Tackling Slash you even get your sparks back.

Soulsever.

Seat boss, use your Shatters. Get the boss done quick.

Stop the boss at max distance from bb or pull it past so the bb is slightly behind the boss but you're still in it. The boss has a front phys aoe that hurts casters and can drop bb.

I would like to kindly point out that barbs have always been in need by classes like Archers, Wizards, Psychics. Nothing really keeps aggro on a pull like a good barb. Better geared Seekers can do it, but they are a newer class. Not to mention BKI makes squishy charms tick a lot less.

I run instances with my archer and my brother's wizard and I find barbs highly useful. I actually made one just because many never pulled as many mobs as I would like/could handle and they just seemed fun to play (which they are). People became too reliant on wines and Zeal pulling. The new bosses in SoT/Aba being near the entrance and easily accessible makes wining a bit redundant now. Going one by one has always been pretty slow regardless when you could just pull 5-6 groups and AoE them all like it was FC/Delta or something.

Rarely will I have more than 1 sin or BM in a squad. Makes a BH slow since you can't do large pulls and depend on them to keep aggro. (sure +10 BM/sins can just aoe large pulls, but the vast majority of my server is r8+5 or lower. So that isn't going to happen often)

My barby is still lvl 94 and I can't wait to tank some BH100s and do crazy pulls on him like I can in FC already.