HA/AA veno build

Satyrion - Sanctuary wrote: »

my cleric got higher magical attack unbuffed than that build, and with same refine. Patakas got a high maximum magical attack, and even on that build its still too low.
you're also loosing some mdef too, which i totally dont like. u wont really notice how much mag hurts as a arcane. but when u are heavy and the mdef is too low... blah...

pure mag is awesome if u ask me. i love the highest possible damage. instead of start using coins on heavy armor and that, get ur r8 armor and weapon some higher refine instead, and work on some great physical defensive ornaments. heavy armor is fun to start with and to try out different playstyles, but i feel pure mag is the way to go. well okay, i also been all builds on my veno now. (:

A properly built HA veno will outdamage an equally geared pure magic veno. HA venos can reach 2.86 APS with a magic sword. High APS means faster chi gain. Faster chi gain means more sparks, etc.

Pure magic and HA do different things, neither is strictly better than the other.


Edit: I spent some time with the calc, and made a quick and dirty HA build.

http://pwcalc.com/ed31d4c2b32fe77d

2.22 aps base, decent physical and magic attack, pretty sturdy defenses. I'm sure with the proper engravings, you could get away from using the LA ornaments, but they're mostly there for the extra interval. The rings are refined to +10, because they're the best way to get magic defense without swapping armor pieces around.

It's probably not the best HA build, but I've never built an HA veno before. Sue me.

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

i heard new bh bosses are ANTI APS...try outdamaging anybody on these! b:chuckle

http://pwcalc.com/fc77dfd8875ef91e

The new BH bosses aren't anti anything. Maybe you should learn how they work before trying to troll. b:bye

Also, rank 9 is soo 2011. Third cast is where it's at these days.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A properly built HA veno will outdamage an equally geared pure magic veno..

Magical vs. magical no.
physical vs. physical yes.

Playstyle.

thumbs wrote: »

Pure magic gets pretty good phys dmg using the Rank Patakas when needed (which aps venos aren't likely to use); making our melee skills and AoEs probably comparable -just a guess. If you want to say that HA is as good as AA; you'd have to be putting the whole Veno class down. Veno doesn't get BP, has no aggro skills outside of stuns, has no skill to boost it's mag def (Barb and BM does), and can't be what they call perma-spark.

HA venos can hold aggro (not saying it the best, and a BM/Barb is much better to use) Genie skills and being able to switch with pet aggro helps (at times) though best to leave it to the other classes unless really needed.

As a HA veno my mag def is pretty good i got 10.1k buffed and i find thats pretty decent for what i have.

There's already a load of threads about HA builds and we had agreed that cash shop veno is the best build. If you have the money you can build an OP veno regardless of build, more or less.

And it comes down to whether you want high damage or better overall defences but with refines both can get high damage and good defences.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

HA venos can AoE too. It's not like a veno loses all their magic attacks as soon as they strap on a set of heavy armor.

Didn't say they couldn't. They just suck at it. -k?

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A veno auto attacking at 2.22/2.86 APS will build chi faster than a veno spamming sage venomous on cooldown. It'll do more DPS too. No, they can't perma spark, but they'll still be able to triple spark more often than a pure magic veno.

They'll also be taking more dps, and still suck compared to melee classes.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A +10 G15 nirvana magic sword will provide better physical DPS than an equally refined rank 8 pataka. With the new G16 magic swords, it's possible the same can be said of G16 nirvana vs. the rank 9 pataka. HA is just as good as AA. No venos don't get aggro skills or buffs, but the HA/AA build allows venos to take full advantage of the fox form skill tree, while still allowing them full use of all their magic attacks and debuffs, as well as the flexibility to adapt to more situations.

HA venos don't need buffs to boost their magic defense, they can wear arcane armor too.

DPS DPS DPS... is this all you can think? I brought up the rank pataka because of it's effect on skills.

I could give a **** about your dps. I'll out dps your veno on my sin and not need healing. Veno is sucky for melee; that's all there is too it. It seems you're ignorant to the advantages Casters have, and the inferiority of veno as a melee toon. Anyone wanting to play melee should consider making a melee toon. Veno is a caster.

Although tweakz is quite aggressive on his manners , i got to agree on one fact .

Venos aren't an DPS-APS class.

I strictly believe that HA Venos should be skill spammers. Their skills are really strong , and they are the actual source of damage. Attempting to DPS with a HA veno will most probably result in you being a burden. Using your skills ( and their various effects) are far better.

taiwanmei wrote: »

I'm still curious about both builds... trying to learn more, but all i can see is biased comments >_< none based on strict facts

i really like fox tree skills but i think HA would leave low mdef and low atk power but i'm still not sure

is it able to use HA and still use magic attacks with decent damage?

In order to use skills as an HA veno, you need to use a magic weapon. With the proper build you should be using a magic weapon appropriate for your level. Magic defense issues can be mitigated by simply keeping two armor sets-one heavy and one arcane-to switch between when the situation calls for it.

As far as attack power goes: Magic swords have higher base attack power than fists, (and the same base attack speed as daggers) and their magic attack/physical attack both increase by the same amount when you refine them. So a +10 G15 nirvana magic sword will net an HA veno about 10-12k physical attack, as well as 10-12k magic attack.

Your magic attack won't be nearly as strong as a pure magic veno with the same weapon. For instance, that +10 nirvana magic sword on a pure magic veno winds up adding almost double the magic attack of the HA veno. HA venos sacrifice magic damage for added physical damage, as well as greater survivability against physical damage.

taiwanmei wrote: »

that was a pretty interesting post, thanks b:victory
both builds looks great, i don't know why people are fighting over it...

i was trying to use pwcalc to simulate a mid-game HA, how do i manage the stat points - str and int - so i can use the best gear?

I've never built an HA veno, so I can't really say. HA is easier to build at higher levels, mostly due to having more gear options.

However, The seal of eternal solitude is an excellent ring for an HA veno, and has a level 80 requirement. Engraving your rings with +str, +dex, or +magic also helps, depending on the stat you need to make up points for.

AA venoes (pure magic) are pretty much inferior to the other builds IMHO. As they could get a high base M.ATK but their spells can't really do good damage other than ironwood / nova which are the reliable attack spells. Noxious gas (3.3 seconds to cast and 6 second cool down = 9.3 seconds) is pretty slow and a bit useless, you could use befuddling mist 2x as fast (4.2 seconds) as much as Noxious doing more DPS in AOEs than noxious. I only see caster form useful just for CC and defense debuff. Even ironwood registers physical attacks more useful right after you use ironwood. I still outdamage pure magic venoes in LA while having better survivability than them.

You can use amp > ironwood (30% p.def debuff) with tangling mire (with at least 50 STR, 45% additional p.def debuff making that 75% p.def debuff) and literally APS in fox form. You could even let pet use pierce making that 81% P.DEF debuff. A lot more reliable than howl and demon venomous scarab which is 66% Wood defense debuff.

Also the fact that HA veno do get less M.DEF, you can just use elemental ornaments (also sapphire shards / DODs / JOSD shards) to make up for the lost M.DEF but even for endgame BH, lunar and warsong, P.DEF and HP is needed more so that means HA (even LA or VIT-melee) is still superior. You take both hits pretty well.

Kiseop - Harshlands wrote: »

Is LA veno even worth it? As I've been reading on the forums, people just consider AA/HA hence, a LA veno would lose everything... Attack damage, defense and HP, comparing to a HA you'll only get more crit evasion and accuracy which are not really useful since you won't get much of anything...

I like AA veno, the class is actually designed to be that way, but the best class is the one which fit your play style, as someone said, the best veno is the cash shop veno, so don't try saying that AA sucks based on your opinion, please.

LA is good training wheels really, it really works pretty well levels 20-79. You'll get better HP from VIT. Losing defense at low-mid levels is completely false. Attack damage, as I said again, LA does more damage with sparks a lot more often than an AA veno, you cannot beat a frequent 200%/400% weapon increase every bit of time, which is also false. With the endgame gears (or above 80), LA becomes weaker than the other armor due to the stat add ons. As I said, not all AA (of course, VIT is a good choice too). Once you get higher levels, you're only needed just for debuffing which is not needed for attack damage anyway, they never had strong magic attacks to begin with, their strengths actually does come from physical attacks rather than magic as weird as it sounds. You don't even need to cash shop your veno unless you want to go to 100/101, get G16 +12 JOSD gear and go PVP against other cash cows.

Cody_tylor - Sanctuary wrote: »

As they could get a high base M.ATK but their spells can't really do good damage other than ironwood / nova which are the reliable attack spells. You can't ignore the fact that most veno spells have a short cast and channeling time, along with a decent channeling gear (30% and above) they can cast pretty often resulting in decent DD. Sure they can't match a Wizard in DPH or a Psychic in DPS but they are not meant to be purely a nuker class to begin with.



Noxious gas (3.3 seconds to cast and 6 second cool down = 9.3 seconds) is pretty slow and a bit useless, you could use befuddling mist 2x as fast (4.2 seconds) as much as Noxious doing more DPS in AOEs than noxious. Befuddling Mist's range is really short, however. In delta that doesn't help much. Noxious Gas, Parasitic Nova and -although not as much- Malefic Crush benefit you more. Befuddling Mist is nice in TW, though, when there are many grouped players.

You also forget that demon venos have shorter cd on Noxious Gas and you ignored the fact that most venos have, more or less, 30%+ channelling endgame which means the channelling is reduced.

I only see caster form useful just for CC and defense debuff. Even ironwood registers physical attacks more useful right after you use ironwood. I still outdamage pure magic venoes in LA while having better survivability than them.That is not true because you didn't make a fair comparison.

Survivability is measured by one's reaction time, knowledge in skills and gear. Also, apothecary pots and charms if you will.

A LA veno with nirvana +5 gear will not have more survivability than an AA R9 +5 veno per example. Venos are not as squishy as they used to be. <- i'm not claiming AA is best, i'm stating facts. A LA veno will die just as much, regardless, if they don't know how to survive.

As for "outdamaging" that's not really accurate unless you do have accurate numbers.


You can use amp > ironwood (30% p.def debuff) with tangling mire (with at least 50 STR, 45% additional p.def debuff making that 75% p.def debuff) and literally APS in fox form. You could even let pet use pierce making that 81% P.DEF debuff. A lot more reliable than howl and demon venomous scarab which is 66% Wood defense debuff. A correction, Pierce, Ironwood, Mystic's debuff, Cleric's debuff, Barb's debuff, Bm's debuff overwrite one another because they share the same data aka icon.



Also the fact that HA veno do get less M.DEF, you can just use elemental ornaments (also sapphire shards / DODs / JOSD shards) to make up for the lost M.DEF but even for endgame BH, lunar and warsong, P.DEF and HP is needed more so that means HA (even LA or VIT-melee) is still superior. You take both hits pretty well. That doesn't mean AA venos can't have high physical defence and HP though. Considering what gear is available for us now, AA aren't the "squishies" they used to be in 2008.

Mostly some notes and misconceptions. If I sounded rude, don't take personally as it was not intended to be rude.

As for the chi part; don't ignore sage veno skills have chances to get extra chi +50 chi skill every minute. Demons have lending hand and crush vigor. There's always Cloud Eruption too. Unless the veno is APS or something..the chi argument not really true.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mostly some notes and misconceptions. If I sounded rude, don't take personally as it was not intended to be rude.

As for the chi part; don't ignore sage veno skills have chances to get extra chi +50 chi skill every minute. Demons have lending hand and crush vigor. There's always Cloud Eruption too. Unless the veno is APS or something..the chi argument not really true.

Nothing to worry about, it is your opinion .

About ironwood, basically that spell does hit hard, but the debuff effects only for physical attacks, paired up with tangling mire, you can almost do full damage within 10-15 seconds depending on the venomancer's culti (sage ironwood 20 seconds). It does not seem like a fair comparison, that is very much close to using myraid rainbow (which takes 9 seconds) debuffs but it is 100% guaranteed to do almost full physical damage.

Yes, ironwood, pierce, devour and other p.def debuffs other than tangling mire overwrites (Same icon), I would not recommend to use ironwood and pierce at the same time. However, tangling mire (It has it own icon which stacks with armor break) can stack with the p.def debuffs. and you can dish out more damage in fox form during the duration of the combined debuffs. I do not know about myriad rainbow p.def debuff and tangling mire together though, I am pretty sure it is not much of a change at all since defense goes down to 0.

Also you are right about G15 Nirvana LA would not have survivability as R9 AA, R9 is superior to Nirvana (G13 and 15) but LA does not offer as much survivability compared to HA or AA even if those were the same grade at around level 90 or above.

And about AA getting about as much P.DEF as HA is true, but HP isn't entirely true, you can't get as much HP as even LA armor with same refines (AA gets the lowest HP from refines). You can get as much as HA in AA if you're built on VIT though.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

What I did was try all builds to find what I like the most and what fits me, my playstyle and my cultivation. Though I can't expect everyone to do that XD I had a lot of time in the past so I could experiment lol.

If you're considering the HA route better start as a LA or AA veno until lvl90. There are sticky threads on the forums. All you need to know is there, really.

It's easier to get ornaments and gear with good bonuses at lvl90+ you also have enough attritube points and such. It is possible to start as HA from early levels but it's going to be a pain.

I also think that if you play your veno more, regardless of what build, you'll eventually be able to decide on what build you want as well as understand the class better.

I agree with everything on this post, trust me. Don't go HA early on, you'll have a rough time trying to find the right gear to even equip HA Kiseop, so stick with your current build until you are at a certain level where you can easily gear the character how you want (80 lowest, 90 is recommended). You will have to try the build at 90 (you can even try at 89, or 80)

You know Cody, I hadn't had a nice argument on the forums in a long time. I really like this lol.

I didn't meant to say AA can get as much HP, that was a mistake on my part, I meant something along the lines that they can get a lot of HP too (10k or so). An uber-highly refined HA veno will probably get a rather scary amount of HP though. Sure melee classes would benefit more but I'd love to see a high HP veno regardless.

When it comes to VIT builds, I prefer HA over VIT arcane builds because those two builds can get about the same amount of magic attack (same weapon) but a HA veno would also have better physical attack, ontop of that can get both magic and physical defences but inevitably requires a higher budget.