Tu Suc Toxin- Good Litmus Test of Playerbase?

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Id rather see we get a TT BH back, or maybe even Nirvana BH, cause these are at least useful. Instead of trying to make players run an instance there really aint that much use for at all when your char gotten decent enough gear already. Unless someone can prove me wrong and tell me how this instance got any practical reward.

It really irks me that people seem to think that the Morai gear is useless. o.O I think PWI did an excellent job with that gear for people who are pure PvE and want to keep up damage wise when it comes to PvE without having to pay out of their *** for it.

Endless Universe can be[with the proper squad] an easy way to get exp orbs for your alts, another way for mirages if you don't mind that, and if PWI wises up and add Influence/Prestige into the mix, a great way to obtain that as well. It looks to be very incomplete now, if you actually ever been in there and took a good look around, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more things to come from that instance.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend a sin for epsilon on a WC squad since the average sin player is not coordinated enough to perform the task. If a task requires anything more than triple spark faceroll an average sin will fail at it. You have to remember that the sin class as a whole is a magnet for people who have failed at other classes.

=(. That is funny enough somewhat true. I did have somebody complaining at lenght bout R9 sins and by the sound of it they were horrible on that run. But I myself have had no problem with sins that are geared bit over average(Clearly alts) but not exactly highly geared. I would call that group, by my own experience, as the best players on Arhosaur player base but drawing conclusions outta limited personal experience is meh.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Now I want really want to know what is the bar to patient if leaving after an hour on relay part is impatient. I never insult or flame ppl in squads even if I might be cursing loudly on vent and get replies like "EU or FC?" in there. When I run squads, I get pms of asking to kick ppl long before I myself resort into that. When my run is finished, I tell I run instance on daily basis and ask ppl to add me if they too like to do that. Since I started doing that, my "Endless" group on FL has gotten more names every single day. You seem to make a lot of assumptions bout me and how I run my groups simply `cause I value speed highly.

You make assumption like speed = risky, while going safely requires time. In my opinion it`s pretty much the opposite but you have set your mind, which is where I mostly disagree with you. To me the first priority is to finish the quest, 2n priority to stay alive and 3rd to kill the mobs if it can be done quickly. The simple holy pathing is the most fool proof way to make sure quest wont fail. It`s simple, fast and easy, with only downside coming to poorly geared ppl who will be having trouble passing their zone going "safely". My point is, my poorly geared sin could live w/o charm ticks, I find gear where even robes couldnt HP trough and live long enough to turn in quest pretty absurd for 9x ppl.

The main reason why there is so few ppl running this instance is trade-off of time used for reward. The faster the run goes, the less of a reward is needed to make it desired thus increasing the amount of runs. Oh well, I really dont understand why I even bother with ppl who dont want to listen.

You're getting offended for no reason, and I have been reading everything you've been posting. I'm not making any assumption about you, when I say you I'm generally speaking. I don't know you and I don't know if you do kick people/RQ squads simply because things are going a little slower than you want. In general, if you can't be patient for someone to take one minute extra in order to make it past the lane, you aren't a patient person. Its just a generalization.

You value speed, I value things getting done in anyway need be. It doesn't mean that speed isn't safe. I didn't say doing it fast isn't safe. I don't know how many times I must tell you that I don't care if people can do it fast or slow, as long as the instance can be completed. Even if it means that they need to take their sweet time to do it. You're the one that's not listening apparently. Jeez.

I'm done though~. b:bye

I like the idea of EU being a BH, but I'd rather it be a BH II (or the 100+ III ?) instead of a BH I. It would still be done for those seeking XP/spirit pills or Talismans without tampering with BH I's current listing.

(Also, agreeing with the above about removing Lunar's entry fee...I dont mind doing it, but to many others, it seems to be a deterrent to even running through the place >_>)

BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... and just in general, we need more bosses with a knockback!

Very few things in this game are as entertaining as the reactions from first timers to that boss. Hell, I still find myself going 'weeeeeee' as I'm flying up in the air.

Good to know I'm not the only one. b:pleased First time I fought that boss, I was pushed off the edge so many times. It was before people figured out the rock thing.

Only one week in and I already saw wc's for "looking for more for Tuc Su Toxin, experienced players only plz!"

Anything that even slightly challenges the playerbase gradually gets locked off to the inexperienced. Kinda like full delta runs when bm's had to run quests. I'm personally going to wait for a faction run, rather than struggle to find a random squad and then get raged at for simple learning mistakes.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I tried this approach with a mostly 9x squad. Nobody was level 99-101, so nobody end game gear. They couldn't handle the mobs (well most of the others, I didn't die once) and we failed several times because they died before they could turn in the quest, once when we were almost done. The instance took a little over an hour. Once people just only tanked what they could handle, the race was done much faster. So yes, 8 minutes more would have been much faster. Don't assume that everyone is 10x with fantastic gear. Heck, don't assume ever 9x player has even decent dear. People know what they can and can't handle. And yes, nobody wants to have to spend an additional 20-30 minutes in FC because you couldn't wait one minute for them. Especially when they will more than give the squad back that one minute with the extra buff by killing the mobs if they are of the more squishier squads. Sins and hard armor classes have much easier time with bigger groups of mobs. That mystic you described couldn't handle it fast either, if she died turning in her mirror. She was clearly in the wrong lane and it would have been faster to put her in a lane she could handle slow or fast.

Yes, she was in wrong lane to start with but should we of forced her to take other gem after she was persistent on finishing it? Didnt she deserve to overcome her challenge? We offered to trade gems but she declined, which is why we let her try again instead of forcing her to do other part. I myself can completely understand wanting to finish zone that has killed you to prove yourself you can do it. If the options are either keep trying slowly and likely failing like before and obviously being unable to turn in the quest vs dying again but being able to turn in the quest.

Going slowly or "safely" is no guarantee to live trough the zone either, saying things like you rather choose "safety" isnt true. Imo all you are choosing is personal xp instead of everybody`s time. To certain extent I agree, I hate seeing ppl die but cleric can go and ress the dead ones if there was no mystic to buff after relay race part is done. And even that is distinctly faster than going trough the zones slowly. The reason why I speak of 8 zones slowpoking is because it reminds me of the times I was claw barb, I had non aps barbs PMing me to take them into nirvana. It`s the same, choosing to be ineffective(Slower) while asking/expecting others to make their runs go smoothly(Quickly).

I never expected epic gear, I expected Morai gear, the one you get from quest chain to enter the instance. Now, I cant see reason why that would be asking much. Morai gear pretty much equals R8 gear on PvE which may be surprise to some ppl. So I guess I`m expecting "end game" gear but you cant enter the instance w/o getting the gear. The bs bout gear is ridiculous as everybody should be running the instance in gear equal to R8 unless they got even better gear.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To me, a succesful run isn't a run where I got what I wanted. To me a successful run is one where there was a limited number of deaths, and it was completed in an efficient manner for all. You're definition is that as long as you got what you wanted, you don't care because you value speed of completion over exp. Your way is far riskier to those who do value their exp because they have limited time. I would rather spend 40 minutes inside of Endless Universe (as opposed to the 30 it can be done in with say a 9x squad, 1 minute extra per person and two extra minutes because stuff happens) As opposed to 30 minutes inside of Endless Universe than an additional 30 minutes inside FC. As a cleric, though, I'm more conscious of people's exp and health. I dislike seeing people die and got sage rez solely because it saves more exp. Level 1 Rez saves just as much time as sage rez, so it definitely wasn't because of that.

Why would you use 20-30mins inside FC if you die once or even twice? That is tampering with facts to make them fit your opinion. I get ~8-10%(on 97 sin) xp/FC when I only hyper xp room. Now the run takes that 20-30mins but you lose less than 0.5%/death w/o any ress, with mystic or cleric that number becomes quite non-existent. So you wouldnt be losing that 20-30 mins, you`d be losing only xp. It`s like I said earlier, you`d choose personal xp over everybody`s time. I myself wont be making that decision individually but I by no means expect others to make same decision or kick simply `cause somebody is slowpoking. To me it`s obvious that the first priority is to turn in your quest and imo the holy pathing trough is the most efficient way to do that.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The 95 morai gear you get is not comparable to rank 8. The G15 one is rumored to be, but that's not the gear you get from the quests. That gear's base defenses are around the TT70 mark, and I doubt that the warding levels make it even close to Rank 8.

My dear nonbeliever, kitty wishes PWI calc had Morai gear included as it would be so much easier to demonstrate exactly how close Morai is - and on some situation how it`s even superior. But let`s compare full R8 archer(Due LA Archer/Sin gains least from Morai gear) and change 1 piece, stat wice. I use only R8 pieces as point zero so I can safely assume that real p.def is actually in fact more, which simply makes Morai gear stronger.

http://pwcalc.com/81c840b3ee53ba4e

P.dmg reduction = 38%

R8 leggings got 231 more p.def so I`ll add physical orn to make up the difference.

http://pwcalc.com/aff3a5e6e56aabb3

P.deg Reduction = 41%
Note that there is actually more p.def difference than the mentioned 231 as that was the closes I could make quickly.

So let`s do math now and assume we get hit for 1k. R8 will take take 1k x 0,59 = 590 dmg.

Now changing one part to Morai 95 gear we got 1k x 0,62 = 620 dmg and after which the warding lvls apply which are actually ~0,9% less dmg tnstead of how def lvls work(1% every difference between lvls). Let`s use as low values for Morai option as possible so it cant be flawed in favor of Morai. 0,9% x 5 = 4,5%. 620 - 520 x 0.045 = 592,1.

We should remember that better ornaments favor Morai gear more than it does R8. We should also remember Morai gear has set bonus(Some wardin/slaying lvls) though I forgot to test it on my toons as I simply npc`d to save room due having R8 on barb & -int gear on sin.

I got Morai leggins & boots myself on sin, it`s the rest of it I npc`d as I got -int chest & bracers and the mentioned warsoul helm. Obviously R8 gear has better addons & more sockets than the standard 2 on free Morai gear but those addons arent that big in terms of survivability. The G15 Morai gear you speak of is compareable to R9 on PvE and I myself wont be wasting my money on nirvana daggers but getting Corona ones as I only made sin to farm and make R9 cheaper for my barb. I`m curious to see if Corona dags will out dmg R9 on PvE at high refines.

But summing it up, there is no real difference between Morai & R8 gear on PvE. With good orns, Morai 95 gear actually surpasses R8 b:bye.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But let's do the math: Let's say you had an entire squad of people who rushed it, but then promptly died


They got the relay race done in 8 minutes.

8 minutes, then they had to wait for the cleric to rez them. We'll assume that the cleric has demon rez, even though it's unreasonable to assume all the clerics will have demon rez. Just for the sake of argument. That's 30 seconds to run to the person+4 seconds to cast the spell.

That's another 4 minutes, 32 seconds.


12 minutes is the instance time you're looking at now. You guys all drop down and rebuff, that's another 20 seconds. 18 for the buffs to all cast, and 2 seconds for the cleric and the last rezzer to drop down. Now the run has taken roughly 12 minutes 52 seconds. You then slice through all the bosses like butter and it takes you only like what 7 minutes to kill all the bosses, head back to the beginning, and turn in your quest.

19 minute mark here.

Now, you gotta go and get your exp back. You pay for heads, it takes you 5 minutes to get to FC. Pay your money, actually complete the heads and get your exp back plus some.

24 minutes +250k (avg price on DW) for fastest way to finish that run+have all your exp.

Now let's assume each person took their time and took an extra 30 seconds (being generous here.)

Nobody dies and you get the relay race done in 12 minutes. You rebuff because of all the purging. 18 seconds this takes (you don't need the 2 extra seconds to jump off the bridge and run back after rezzing, because nobody died so you all jumped same time.) 12 minutes 18 seconds. You finish the bosses and turn the quests in after 10 minutes because this is a slower squad. You proceed onto doing something else because you didn't die and don't have to make up for anything.

Finished

Total Time:

22 minutes and 18 seconds.


You finished faster and cheaper (no repair bills, no paying for heads, no 20 minute FC runs, no nothing! Congratulations!

Both examples are extreme, but assuming each and every person will need a full extra minute because they every last one of them is slowpokes instead of just one or two people in the squad who might need to go one by one is also extreme. Just as going slower doesn't necessarily mean safer, bum-rushing the instance doesn't necessarily mean faster.

Oh wow, should I even reply to this argument as it`s just plain stupid? No, I dont think that is strong enough of an expression for it. Kitty restrains himself, sticks to the subject and only calls the argument idiotic.

First of all you, let`s look closer to premises you set.

1. The **** is that first 8 mins? No seriously, I cant understand why you put 8min there. If it`s for finishing the relay race I`m yet to fail with ppl rushing trough their zones. The correct time for this part would be ~1.5mins(8x 10s = 1min20s) but to be on safe side we should say it takes 2mins.

2. The ones who cant pull off the rushing trough are actually minority, majority of the ppl in my squads live trough it. Well I had R9 barb on middle gem today, he HP`d ahead of me, died for not getting purified but that was simply being inexperienced, I doubt he`ll die again in that manner. Oh cleric was following the kitty = kitty was soon back up. No one else died and we all "rushed" trough, though at first alpha didnt take quest = rolled around his zone for minute or two till he realized what was the issue and did his part.

The xp loss?

3. Your whole approach on xp is quite ridiculous. We can safely assume that cleric got lvl 10 rez on 9x as it can be maxed on 6x which isnt awfully expensive. So if ppl would lose 0.5% xp(even my sin loses less) w/o rez(lvl or culti decreased the amount) and lvl 10 ress saves 90% of the xp loss. So now we`re talking bout losing 10% of that 0.5% = 0.05% xp/death. Does that number sound like something that has to be FC`d back?

No, the only way to properly argue bout the importance of xp is how much the lost xp would cost. I run FC several times a day and my best estimate for the heads is 3% xp for the lvl 98 so it`s more for lvls under that. Obviously 99+ gain lot less due nerf but do you see anybody selling heads for 99+? So let`s put price tag for rezed death. 0,05% is 1,7% of 3% which by your average price would be xp worth of 4,25k. Without ress it`s 10x that = 42.5k.

Ps. I cant bother pulling some numbers outta my *** to make some "math argument" on relay race.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Only one week in and I already saw wc's for "looking for more for Tuc Su Toxin, experienced players only plz!"

It's been 3 weeks...

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The 95 morai gear you get is not comparable to rank 8. The G15 one is rumored to be, but that's not the gear you get from the quests. That gear's base defenses are around the TT70 mark, and I doubt that the warding levels make it even close to Rank 8.

95 Morai IS comparable to TT99/R8. I did all the math a few weeks ago on every possible gear setup. None of the Morai helms are superior to Warsoul helms though, so don't bother using any of them unless you can't afford a warsoul or better.

To clarify, Morai 95 performs better than TT90. It's about on par with Lunar and around 7-8% less effective compared to TT99 and R8.

Morai G13 (lvl 100) gear out performs TT99 and R8 by about 4-6%.

The Morai G15 (101) gear performs at about 1-2% better than first cast Nirvana.

This is speaking strictly in terms of defense. Note that with Morai gear you'll have noticeably less HP, but the added defense from the warding levels can make a barb with 11k HP in 95 Morai gear and 14.3k HP in TT99/Rank 8 have an Effective Health of 49k and 52k respectively. That's damn good considering price differences in obtaining the two.

The weapons are a different story. On average they are just as effective as some of the more common weapon choices out there. But in some cases they are worthless, or insanely more powerful. Two examples:

For healing purposes, a Morai weapon is a horrible choice, because heals don't benefit from the Slaying levels.

For attacks like Armageddon, which don't use base damage or weapon damage as modifiers, it's an amazing choice.

Also, the weapons don't match up on the same level as the armor. What I mean is, don't expect 95 Morai weapons compared to an R8 weapon perform as well as 95 armor performed compared to R8 armor.

While I haven't tested the weapons as extensively as I have the armor (time constraints), this is what I have determined so far. 95 Morai performs at the same level as most lunar and TT99 weapons. Not true in all cases though. The Morai G13 weapons tend to perform better than that same gear by a small margin. It's right on par with LG/TT Nirvana 1st cast, and some Rank 8. LG Nirvana tends to offer a bit more versatility while TT Nirvana tends to offer a tad bit more damage, but it's so close it's like splitting hairs.

G15 Morai weapons. They perform on a lower level than R9, G15 Nirvana, and R8 recast. It's not even close. But they do perform better than everything up until that point.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My sin has 1832 p.def with that full set of armor on, when I subtract out the amount of additional p.def gained from the ornament I have to wear to even put it on. I had to put on a str necklace to even wear the armor, but that besides the point since you'd have to do that with whatever helm you're wearing too. Rank 8 with warsoul helm (fairly typical helm worn with that rank 8, morai gear comes with a helm and wearing the complete set gives you a slaying bonus of 5) gives me a p.def of about 2602 according to the calc. So no, it's base defenses are substantially less than that of rank 8. Start talking refining and shading this gear (and it'd be pretty stupid to do anything more than +3 if you're running endless universe to get the better armor) and the 95 gear compares even less. It's not bad armor, to be sure. But I don't see too many people wanting to shard and refine it while doing endless universe, so chances are that whatever they have on already is better. I don't know if the best gear will be comparable to Rank 9. I haven't taken a look at it. I'm saying it's base defenses are low, and I don't think the warding levels puts it ups as far as rank 8.

Aside from the fact you can easily +6 an item for less than 200 mirages and a few refining stones bought with event gold, I believe I covered the rest above.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I wouldnt waste my time with her as for somebody, who uses math as an way to argue, she understand surprisingly little of it. But I'm curious if you did the math for corona dags and if you did, did you include higher refine options? I expect r9 to be stronger on low refines while corona dags get closer the higher the refines go, despite the fact that r9 refines better. Or is it, as I now suspect after reading your explanation, that it's the r9 set bonus which sets it ahead in comparison?

I have to do the math myself whenever I get home but I doubt any sin made for simply farming will go for anything but corona dags as its still so cheap for how efficient of a weapon it is. The recasting of those dags was IMO really cheap and good Addons should be expected. The easy avaibility of morai gear combined with how long the expansion downloaded - I expect quite a bit more new content as giving that good gear away for free wouldn't make sense otherwise. Kitty has a bad feeling of r10 or warsoul v2.0.

Edit: **** apple and the automatic correction on iPhone, half the it's sht while rest of the time it works well enough to keep you from being motivated enough to look how to turn it off.

I haven't had a chance to do the math on the daggers. Sin's are usually low priority to me, but I'm not busy atm so i'll do some quick math and edit this to let you know. It's possible that considering how sins work, they might be the only class where the G15 weapon can be a true end-game weapon.


EDIT: Ok So this is what I have come up with. G15Morai vs R9 daggers: even without factoring in the set bonus, R9 performs 10-20% better depending on what adds you get on the Corona daggs.

Add in the set bonus for R9 and it completely destroys the Corona daggs. R9 is still king by a long shot.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmm, I figured the warding levels wouldn't be as strong as they are, since the base defenses are so low without refines/shards. I figured it would probably take it up to about TT90 gold level, but only if it was well refined/sharded. So that's pretty good too know. I tested it out and noticed I could do a lot less with my 95 gear then with my previous set of gear on my sin, which had very low refines. I mean, unrefined rank 8 should still perform better than +3 anything in the 8x levels. I wasn't able to test them out as easily because I kept dying to mobs that I grinded on all the time, and when I switched armors had no problems. But I guess I should've done a second test to make sure that wasn't just the ping. Still, if TT99 is better, and Rank 8 is better than that. I still wouldn't consider the two comparable, but I guess that's a matter of opinion.

As for the mirages/event gold thing, I agree that refining to +6 is cheap. My sin's daggers are +6, something I did to them back when fairy boxes still dropped. SO I did it for basically free. But it took my friend a little over a week to get the gear she specifically wanted, while I still haven't gotten a single armor/weapon card. IF you're only going to have the gear a week and can't account stash or sell it, what would be the point of refining it? That's a matter of personal opinion though.

What's your normal gear? You didn't mention that. Sins tend to rely on BP heals a lot to accomplish things even as simple as grinding. If you swapped out some interval pieces for Morai gear, then yeah I would expect your performance to decline significantly. Also depends on what you were grinding on, I suppose.

By comparable, I simply meant that an increase of 7-8% defense from Morai 95 to TT99 isn't worth 100+ mil. Especially if it's an alt. Naturally each player will have to consider the other adds the TT99 or rank gear gives and how that could affect each specific class. But if you're looking to upgrade from TT90/gold, the Morai is an effective and free choice. If you play the type of the class that utilizes a variety of weapons, Morai provides a free option that's reasonably good.

If you already have better, Morai gears aren't going to appeal to you. They just open up possibilities for those with a handful of characters, the people who can't seem to make money or don't have time to farm extensively, and the players that would rather spend their hard earned coin on things like the latest fashion.

As far as the refining: who is to say most players would only have this item for a week? Keep in mind the G13 version, although they can be obtained as early as 95, can't be worn until 100. So if a player gets this at 95, and isn't the sort to hyper FC non-stop, it could last them for a while.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you wanted to calculate things to be more specific the damage reduction of Warding Levels is pretty simple:

damage reduction = warding level / (mob level + warding level)

I havent found the exact formula yet for Slaying level though.

That's good to know. And from all my testing it seems to match up.


EDIT: I just have to point out, it's Tuc Su Toxin, not Tu Suc Toxin >.<

I'm not sure what kind of math you used, but I compared Morai 95 gear to my own TT90 Gold on mobs ingame. The 95 was much worse. I was taking about 20% more physical damage and a *lot* more magical damage.

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Had a great guy in Endless today. He kept flashing his R9+12 weapon and talking about how awesome he was. Then on the second boss he kept attacking the one with BB buff...

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Regarding Epsilon, I've been doing it as a BM. The debuff can be cancelled with Shadowless Kick. I'm assuming barb and genie cancel skills work as well. Makes the area rather simple.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you wanted to calculate things to be more specific the damage reduction of Warding Levels is pretty simple:

damage reduction = warding level / (mob level + warding level)

I havent found the exact formula yet for Slaying level though.

That formula seems to match pretty well. It would indicate that some warding lvls are indeed good, the more you got - the less you gain. I think that ~20-25 is the point Alfred which warding lvls start getting less and less appealing. To the ones not interested in maths, each warding Level gives 2% less reduction than the one before it. Though upon thinking bout proving that - kitty should prolly get sober first as his having trouble in proving that. Kitty can provide math of that when his completely sober as his having trouble repeating the results, lol.

Sober note: Kitty has no idea whatsoever of what he was talking bout, all kitty can say is "musta been fun night". Least it lead kitty to formula that seemed to fit with 45 slayer lvls, though it can be only a coincidence. Waiting for the hangover...

Slaying levels are interesting and i wish there was wep with maybe 10 slaying lvls to determine if the the per cent of dmg changes drastically upon more slaying lvls as happens with warding lvls according to your formula. Now if warding lvls drop 2% in efficiency, could it be that slaying lvls dropped only 1%? Now my head ain't working well enough to come up formula which would do just that, hence I'm unable to test this theory. Or could it be as simple as slayin lvl starting on 1% bonus for 1 slaying lvl efficiency dropping that 1% compared to the slaying lvl before while having nothing to do with the lvl mobs are? I figure out formula for that when my head works again unless somebody beats me into it.

Edit: kitty's head is bit better atm and he came up with the following formula for slayer lvls, (1 - (0,99^n-1) + 0,01) x 100%. Fits the 37% dmg boost of 45 slayer lvls perfectly but if I cant get any other numbers to test the formula, it`s most likely just a coincidence.