Tu Suc Toxin- Good Litmus Test of Playerbase?

BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

..or at least some better drops from the boss. Like a chance for base trial mats, etc.

that would be pretty awesome too. I was a little disappointed that the drops from the bosses are stuff you can get anywhere else. Lvl 88 stuff is nuts. They at least need to give us level 100 items.. even if they are 3 star and lame.

Absolutely love this instance. It's fun and it's different.

1st time - I was very up front and stated several times I'd never done it and please tell me what to do. Nonetheless, I was amazed to find FACTION MATES!!!! yelling about kicking the next person who messed up, even though there had been virtually no explanation of the relay portion. No, it's not rocket science, but it was just a little confusing (for slow me) the first time through. After we got that, it went much better.

2nd run -- Fantastic! WC squad for "experienced" people to which i om'd asking if once through was experienced enough. As a cleric, I guess I still count for something, because I got an invite. Leader gave very clear and precise instructions as I wasnt the only one with limited experience. We didn't fail even once.

Subsequent runs -- People are getting the hang of it and it's going better. A little frustrating when everyone else thinks they know your class better than you do, but there will always be some of those and, let's face it, too many fcc noobs these days make that a strong possibility.

Rewards -- I take the exp because I refuse to buy fcc, especially at my lvl (101) and especially because I'm crazy enought o actually enjoy running fcc. Besides, I'm never very lucky so anything other than a mirage or so out of the chest if virtually impossible.

Suggestion -- Yes, definitely change reward to add prestige and influence, please. The idea of decreasing exp rewards for each failure is an interesting one, but if that's the case, please provide a higher reward for faster runs or non-fails.

Overall, this one's a keeper in my opinion.

FatalFem - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I would love for them to remove lunar as a BH and put in the second boss on this instance as a BH 100! Third, it should give influence and prestige; if even a small amount!

This this this. b:dirty

Its quite simple. You need at least 2 casters if not 3.. Epsilon needs a sin who can 3 spark and purge themselves or a cleric for purge. 1 gem is phys immune=needs caster and one is mag immune= needs phys char. If your gonna have support runers.. even if only 1.. Cleric please.. That way if anyone dies during run they can be rezzed. cause you cant release or the quest fails.. and if you havent delivered your gem.. sucks to be you. Casters need to attack the bird and phys the mobs that spawn. Stand on the edge or run around the top of the wall.. fire cant reach you. BB is useless on first boss.. just stand against the wall.. now knock back. 2nd boss you can BB..if you want .. 3rd.. why? Alpha is harpies.. archer veno or cleric is nice. Beta stuns.. Im a cleric and just ran purified ran IH'd then tempest siren and razor.. dead mobs.. Veno's pets can go past the lasers even though the veno cant..

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

yeah ther is quite a few shouts on sanct.... but i think a handful of pple who finished the quest pretty fast and did that universe dungeon the first week.... omg traumatized :x fail after fail after fail and the sad thing was... cause these lv100s were dying (barb included) and they were from prominant TW factions

My first Tu Suc Toxin took 3 and a half hours. We had four people dropped and replaced. And I started at 5 AM. Ouch.

My second Tu Suc Toxin took 1 hour of explanation because we had to wait for server reset. The Squad Lead's husband had entered once in the previous day, and she didn't want to kick him. <.< I explained it so thoroughly though, we were out of there in about 40 mins.

I'm definitely traumatized xD I wonder how people who first tried the Godless Valley instance felt. Oooh boy.

I'm specifically avoiding Tuc-su toxin until i learn from other's mistakes. From the video i've seen, it's not worth it for 400k exp or smth like that, to deal with the stupidity of alot of ppl.
Wraithslayer's missive is easy instant-reward, don't need more than that.

I dislike the talk of how some class is supposed to take some gem - every class can do every gem, some are simply more efficient at different gems. Sure, if I can, I always have sin on Epsilon instead of the veno that was mentioned in this thread. My reasoning is speed and like it or not, sin can do it the fastest. But if Sin doesnt finish Epsilon in 10s, he/she is doing something wrong and the advantage of having sin run it keeps decreasing.

Yes, I understand. I want only the most efficient classes for each of the Gems too. Don't get me wrong.

When I suggested the veno idea, it was for the squads that have sins who are simply too afraid to deal with Epsilon's debuff, or squads who need their sins for other reasons[Support for example] but happens to have the veno there. It is a very easy Gem for venos to do, and we so have speed on our side. When the servers start to host more experienced people, then you shouldn't have that problem. It took me about 1 minute to do the Epsilon gem in order to make sure that the herc ran into each mob, took the debuff, de-summon and re-summon, and I kept going. Yeah I could've ran through and sparked it off but I saved not only chi for in case something went wrong, but I saved support from even being hit with the mobs/that debuff too.

Any class can do any gem though, like you said. I was just giving a little hint. A sin is best in that Gem because of the chi gain, however.

Also, I wouldn't recommend everyone simply Holy Pathing/leeroy'ing past all of the mobs UNLESS you are more than able to handle the grouping at the end. Since the traps do slow/debuff/purge you, those mobs will smack you for some HP if you're not prepared. I much rather the Gem runner live through the run than try to bomb rush it and die before hitting the mirror just so we could save a few seconds. But that's just me.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

When I suggested the veno idea, it was for the squads that have sins who are simply too afraid to deal with Epsilon's debuff, or squads who need their sins for other reasons[Support for example] but happens to have the veno there. It is a very easy Gem for venos to do, and we so have speed on our side. When the servers start to host more experienced people, then you shouldn't have that problem. It took me about 1 minute to do the Epsilon gem in order to make sure that the herc ran into each mob, took the debuff, de-summon and re-summon, and I kept going. Yeah I could've ran through and sparked it off but I saved not only chi for in case something went wrong, but I saved support from even being hit with the mobs/that debuff too.

When sin does the zone in 1 fifth it takes you I dont really understand your talk bout speed on your side. If sin is afraid of doing it - He really should do it to come over his/her fear as it`s completely safe to do fast for sin. The debuff takes quite a long time to tick, I should actually test exactly how long, but I`m guessing 5s+ so sin can actually aggro everything to give safe passage for support if that is needed. You think that it`s better to take your sweet time to do it absolutely safe but doing it quickly, which I find to be just as safe, we can fail few times and still be quicker if going safely occurs on every zone.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Any class can do any gem though, like you said. I was just giving a little hint. A sin is best in that Gem because of the chi gain, however.

That is actually wrong, sin is best cause of deaden nerves which allows you to get ticked once by the curse. Sins also got tidal protection which has 50% chance to not get cursed in the first place. Chi gain is completely irrelevant unless you kill the mobs, which is the wrong approach imo. Sure doing those quests give some buff to you/debuff to bosses but if it`s going smoothly & fast, you wont have time to kill the mobs anyways.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, I wouldn't recommend everyone simply Holy Pathing/leeroy'ing past all of the mobs UNLESS you are more than able to handle the grouping at the end. Since the traps do slow/debuff/purge you, those mobs will smack you for some HP if you're not prepared. I much rather the Gem runner live through the run than try to bomb rush it and die before hitting the mirror just so we could save a few seconds. But that's just me.

Well obviously you`ll vacuity pot before holy pathing trough if you dont feel safe bout jumping over the traps. I rather help ppl to learn the fast way to do it than waste my time sitting doing nothing as while the running part is fun - the waiting for your turn isnt. The only reason to fear bout dying is xp loss which can be pretty much avoided with mystic buff. And even w/o the xp loss is pretty irrelevant unless you are 101+ and intending to go higher. And actually, "bombing" trough isnt just the fastest way to go but most often the safest option to keep the quest from failing. Heck, we had mystic going slowly(Faction training run) and she actually managed to do her part by "bombing" as trying to go slowly didnt work for her. Obviously she died in the end but she did her part, which is what matters.

@Erryne: I was afraid of that, sigh. I doubt I`ll buy the Corona bow as I already got 8x mold bow from divine missive quests, which is fine for all my uses `cept the bird boss in EU.

I love Epsilon. Yes I'm an assassin but people make this gem harder than it is. The mobs don't hit you hard at all. Unless of course you do not get purified after being hit.

I simply holy path or windpush through from the start all the way to the end. (you can do this in less than 10 seconds) then I spark (which purifies all the hits) then I kill them all at one time with aoes /reg attacks. Then I wait for respawn and do it all over again. Anyone who starts out with 3 sparks can do this. And most every class has at least 1 skill to gain chi so while you are waiting for respawn you can chi back up.

Not everyone is comfortable with Epsilon. When I do a squad, I ask everyone to stand next to a gem they are comfortable with, then if need be I move ppl around to suit what classes are in the squad.

At this point, everyone who has been in there knows their ability, which gem works for them and what they would like to do. The more and more that people become familiar with this instance it will be less necessary to delegate anything in there.

Kitty approves writing on quote to make quoting you harder.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

I run at a consistent 10 s [Demon Fox Form] without even having to use Holy Path to assist me. I only ever Holy Path in the instance when I'm facing a trap I can't get through without difficulty, and inside of the Epsilon Gem, that hasn't been the case. I'm not going to throw anyone into a Gem they're uncomfortable with, and that epsilon gem is still a shock for most. But yes I do think it is better to take my 'sweet time' in order to make sure both me and my support makes it across that lane unscathed and with as least charm ticks as possible.

And if one minute is really holding up everyone else's time, then that's just their problem. I prefer to do it safe than to do it faster, and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't see how you think that failing makes doing the relay run any quicker than just doing it safe the first time with no deaths.

The **** your movement speed matters if you dont use it? And no, we arent talking bout 1min more but 1min more/zone as isnt the slowpoking option what everybody should do to, let me quote, "make sure both me and my support makes it across that lane unscathed"? So we should be talking of 8 minutes as there is in fact 8 zones.

Obviously you havent done Epsilon as a sin. Even the cream of the player base who just slam their faces on keyboard shouldnt be able to fail at that - Well they might move outta zone but that`s beside the point. You seem to think it`s difficult to do what I`m suggesting but it`s ridiculously easy with no challenge at all. My sin has no gear over +2 `cept +5 Warsoul which is my barb`s old gear and sin has no added vit - All her survivability is basically by how broken of a class sins are. The new morai gear, which you gotta obtain to enter EU, is more than enough of do what I`m suggesting.

I`m not charmed but my hp never gets below 50% on my sin while "bombing" so I`m doubtful of charm ticks even for the poorly geared sins. Unless the support is dumb enough to take heal aggro, there is just no rational reason for why support would even get hit. The only thing you achieve with your babysitting service is the rest of us being forced to teach your babysittees how to pull their weight in the instance.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

From the squads I've been in, they've wanted the sin's ability to gain chi quicker to spark off that debuff for the Epsilon Gem rather than Tidal Protection or Deaden Nerves. You speak as though you're going to have pro people/sins in every single squad that you'll be in, which we all know isn't going to be the case. Like I said before, when the servers grow more experienced in this instance, then yes. But as I have seen so far, the only reasons sins are wanted in that gem than any other is the spark off.

Do remember that I said it was a hint and that it was only recommended for squads that either 1) have probably one sin that wants to position himself/herself into a more suited role [personally, I love the idea of a sin on support along with cleric due to fast kills of mobs.] or 2) doesn't have a sin at all but has a veno at their disposal. All class can do any Gem, and if I'm on my cleric or wizard, you best believe I would want a sin to go to that Gem more than any other class. This was just an alternative that venos could use and feel comfortable with. I'm not saying veno is better than sin in Epsilon.

Reason why there are those ideas of sparking etc. is because either a) Nobody in squad knows better or b) They are babysitters. There are some ppl who learn on their own at fast pace but that player type seems to be dying from MMOs. The average ppl need somebody who tells them what, how and why for instance to go smoothly. But they will learn when taught and can teach others the way they were taught. The more we got babysitters - The longer it takes for playerbase to get familiar with the instance and the longer you will find need to babysit ppl.

I dont expect anybody to be more than able to listen simple directions and I accept mistakes but not repeating it time after time again when I`ve patiently told how to avoid the mistake in question. I will always ask if everybody has done instance before and promise to talk trough the instance in case somebody hasnt. If there is death and better instructions could of prevented that - I will take blame for it and apologize squad for my mistake. I actually took blame for somebody not having ress scroll as I forgot to tell before hand how it could save the quest. We had only cleric middle, who couldnt pass trough Beta as veno with the gem was afk. Some might say it wasnt my fault but restart could of been avoided(+ the time cleric tried to pass alone) had I told to bring ress scroll into instance. I learned and tell ppl to bring one with them.

Obviously I`d talk the sin which is uneasy bout doing Epsilon trough and promise if he/she cant manage it, I`ll do it. To me it`s important to not only pass the run but also distribute knowledge of the instance so inexperienced squads wont have to deal with sins who are afraid of Epsilon/etc. Now what I`m suggesting has got 10 simple steps: 1) Pick your quest, 2) Cast Deaden nerves, 3) Cast Tidal protection, 4) Cast maze steps and start running, 5) Holy path and run trough zone, 6) Cast chi skill 7) Spark away the possible debuff, 8) Turn in the quest, 9) Just kill the mobs for lolz, 10) Lowbies might want to pot crab meat after sparking. Anybody with any common sense should come up with this but I dont expect that much, I do expect to follow my directions when they are needed though.

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

The option to pot should just be that, an option. If someone wants to Holy Path/AD/Pot through the mobs, then by all means. As long as you can get to the mirror and handle yourself when you are done delivering. If you WANT to die afterwards, I understand. I personally wouldn't waste a pot just to get through all of the mobs. I have the gear to run them all to the end and AOE them off of me. But for those people who don't have the gear or the pot option, they don't need to rambo through the mobs. And I won't get frustrated with them if they don't want to rambo through the mobs.

Not everyone is going to go "Well, I delivered so I don't mind dying at this point." Its an extra charm tick/annoyance to have to deal with it. We already have instances where speed of completion is so important to the population, like Delta[I don't want to be in an instance for 3 hours, yay spawnpoint.] or Nirvana [where the quicker the damage output is, the faster you get through the instance and farm money/gear], but this is a relay race that requires team work and coordination and we don't need to insert our need to complete as FAST as POSSIBLE regardless of consequences mindset into here. Its not absolutely necessary to leeroy through groups of mobs you can't handle. The speed of how you complete it isn't the goal here: its completing the race itself. And I rather complete it in the least amount of death/charm ticks/ fails and retrys possible -- not minutes.

You mistake me, I dont expect that, heck, I bring a lot of 9x ppl(My own sin is 97) into the instance. Tell me, how it`s better to keep dying and failing your part instead of dying but finishing your part? The mystic I talked bout couldnt do it going slowly so she had to do it by going "rambo". We offered to trade gems so she could try another(8 ppl in squad) but she was determined to finish Beta. Dying at the end of your part sucks but I cant help it if ppl lack gear, what I can help though is getting their part done so least they wont die several times and waste everybody`s time, theirs included.

I cant understand what is wrong with trying to do things quickly. If you are gonna slowpoke, do it alone so you wont waste the precious time of others - there are also ppl who have limited time to play and simply cant do slow runs. If I`m gonna teach ppl to do something, I`ll rather do it properly so they wont have to be taught again. I once had a run where I was delta gem on my barb(Wasnt squad run by me) and ppl did take their sweet time so to say. We failed 3 times (because somebody moved from their zone) I think before I got to run my part, which was ~1h mark. You seem to think that simply going slowly is some golden way to avoid fail, it`s not and quicker pace helps to spot problems faster. Oh I ditched them soon after to run SP delta `cause I was getting bored outta my mind and the squad had been WCing over an hour for a barb so I decided they deserve to get it done.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Kitty approves writing on quote to make quoting you harder.



The **** your movement speed matters if you dont use it? And no, we arent talking bout 1min more but 1min more/zone as isnt the slowpoking option what everybody should do to, let me quote, "make sure both me and my support makes it across that lane unscathed"? So we should be talking of 8 minutes as there is in fact 8 zones.

Obviously you havent done Epsilon as a sin. Even the cream of the player base who just slam their faces on keyboard shouldnt be able to fail at that - Well they might move outta zone but that`s beside the point. You seem to think it`s difficult to do what I`m suggesting but it`s ridiculously easy with no challenge at all. My sin has no gear over +2 `cept +5 Warsoul which is my barb`s old gear and sin has no added vit - All her survivability is basically by how broken of a class sins are. The new morai gear, which you gotta obtain to enter EU, is more than enough of do what I`m suggesting.

I`m not charmed but my hp never gets below 50% on my sin while "bombing" so I`m doubtful of charm ticks even for the poorly geared sins. Unless the support is dumb enough to take heal aggro, there is just no rational reason for why support would even get hit. The only thing you achieve with your babysitting service is the rest of us being forced to teach your babysittees how to pull their weight in the instance.



Reason why there are those ideas of sparking etc. is because either a) Nobody in squad knows better or b) They are babysitters. There are some ppl who learn on their own at fast pace but that player type seems to be dying from MMOs. The average ppl need somebody who tells them what, how and why for instance to go smoothly. But they will learn when taught and can teach others the way they were taught. The more we got babysitters - The longer it takes for playerbase to get familiar with the instance and the longer you will find need to babysit ppl.

I dont expect anybody to be more than able to listen simple directions and I accept mistakes but not repeating it time after time again when I`ve patiently told how to avoid the mistake in question. I will always ask if everybody has done instance before and promise to talk trough the instance in case somebody hasnt. If there is death and better instructions could of prevented that - I will take blame for it and apologize squad for my mistake. I actually took blame for somebody not having ress scroll as I forgot to tell before hand how it could save the quest. We had only cleric middle, who couldnt pass trough Beta as veno with the gem was afk. Some might say it wasnt my fault but restart could of been avoided(+ the time cleric tried to pass alone) had I told to bring ress scroll into instance. I learned and tell ppl to bring one with them.

Obviously I`d talk the sin which is uneasy bout doing Epsilon trough and promise if he/she cant manage it, I`ll do it. To me it`s important to not only pass the run but also distribute knowledge of the instance so inexperienced squads wont have to deal with sins who are afraid of Epsilon/etc. Now what I`m suggesting has got 10 simple steps: 1) Pick your quest, 2) Cast Deaden nerves, 3) Cast Tidal protection, 4) Cast maze steps and start running, 5) Holy path and run trough zone, 6) Cast chi skill 7) Spark away the possible debuff, 8) Turn in the quest, 9) Just kill the mobs for lolz, 10) Lowbies might want to pot crab meat after sparking. Anybody with any common sense should come up with this but I dont expect that much, I do expect to follow my directions when they are needed though.



You mistake me, I dont expect that, heck, I bring a lot of 9x ppl(My own sin is 97) into the instance. Tell me, how it`s better to keep dying and failing your part instead of dying but finishing your part? The mystic I talked bout couldnt do it going slowly so she had to do it by going "rambo". We offered to trade gems so she could try another(8 ppl in squad) but she was determined to finish Beta. Dying at the end of your part sucks but I cant help it if ppl lack gear, what I can help though is getting their part done so least they wont die several times and waste everybody`s time, theirs included.

I cant understand what is wrong with trying to do things quickly. If you are gonna slowpoke, do it alone so you wont waste the precious time of others - there are also ppl who have limited time to play and simply cant do slow runs. If I`m gonna teach ppl to do something, I`ll rather do it properly so they wont have to be taught again. I once had a run where I was delta gem on my barb(Wasnt squad run by me) and ppl did take their sweet time so to say. We failed 3 times (because somebody moved from their zone) I think before I got to run my part, which was ~1h mark. You seem to think that simply going slowly is some golden way to avoid fail, it`s not and quicker pace helps to spot problems faster. Oh I ditched them soon after to run SP delta `cause I was getting bored outta my mind and the squad had been WCing over an hour for a barb so I decided they deserve to get it done.

I never said doing it slower makes it better. I said I rather do it safer even if it cost me a few more minutes. There isn't anything wrong with doing it faster, if the squad can manage it. If you're not tolerant enough to accept that some people won't bomb rush past the mobs and risk things just to do it faster then you're just not patient. I'm not going to RQ/kick/whine over people who wants to spend a minute or two to ensure that they get down their lane and they activate the mirror.

When did I ever say it was better to die and fail than to die and not fail? I rather no one die at all, and succeed. Hence why I say don't rambo if you know you can't handle it, don't want the charm tick. If you're on limited time, then measure your time correctly before you join any instance, not just Endless Universe. Regardless of how pro you or your squad might be, anything can happen[d.c'ing for example]. I wouldn't dare enter that instance unless I know I have a good hour of time to spare, to be honest. Same with any other instance I'd enter into.

I never said you couldn't fail by taking your sweet time either. If you are able to rush past the mobs, by all means, do so. I rather someone know what they're doing, slow way or fast way, and activate that mirror than force them to try and attempt something that's too overwhelming for them. Hence: I'm not going to get frustrated if people don't want to do it 'the fast way'. Long as they are good enough to get to that mirror.

Support does and can get hit. No point in pretending that they have no chance of it happening.

Not everyone will be able to survive the hits of those mobs, even if your sin somehow seems to manage it. That's a matter of opinion and play style, and even if you somehow do it, you shouldn't think everyone will be able to do the same. Sins are broken and their survivability in comparison to the other classes is broken as well; even you said it yourself with Tidal Protection and Deaden Nerves. And I'm talking in all Gems, not just Epsilon.

I don't think its baby sitting to want people to complete Endless Universe with as less deaths/ticks/fails and retry as possible. I'm just one of those people that is patient enough to not want to shove my head in a garbage disposal just because something takes longer than five minutes to complete.

I do use my movement speed, as it would be dumb not to. I don't think what you're suggesting is difficult. At this point, all we're arguing is a matter of preference, which is dumb since its all opinion based and it depends on whatever squad you're in how it'll get done. I've been in both kinds of squads: You prefer to teach them how to do it in the fastest way while trying to be 'safe'. I prefer they do it the safe way, as long as they can get to the mirror and we complete the relay. Your way isn't the 'proper' way - its only the way you prefer it. Just like my way isn't the 'proper' way. b:bye

I wouldn't recommend a sin for epsilon on a WC squad since the average sin player is not coordinated enough to perform the task. If a task requires anything more than triple spark faceroll an average sin will fail at it. You have to remember that the sin class as a whole is a magnet for people who have failed at other classes.

I very dislike the idea of having this instance as a BH instead of Lunar Glade. Also, I dont get why most people seem to skip out on that BH cause of the fee, when only 2 out of 5 rewards wont ensure you get that coin back, in addition to it being a farming instance. Meaning you at least get something useful out of it if you save the drops. In addition you get the Wygie bosses to play with.

Endless Universe can only be opened once a day, so if you do it before getting your BH, you would be screwed til next day. The instance dont appear to have any real practical use to it, other than the order influence and prestige. And if thats why youre doing the instance, then youre gonna do it wether its BH or not.

Id rather see we get a TT BH back, or maybe even Nirvana BH, cause these are at least useful. Instead of trying to make players run an instance there really aint that much use for at all when your char gotten decent enough gear already. Unless someone can prove me wrong and tell me how this instance got any practical reward.