Question about weapon

sachelfunlol · February 2012

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lack of omallys is not going to lower you from 22k to 12k damage lol, and contributing a 10k damage nerf to 5% damage nerfs does not add up. I'm pointing out the lost of up to 100 hp(20k crit) is not game breaking. Either you lost your edge as a sin or you're running with weak sauce squads.

The abilities of the other classes have no bearing on my issue, when we are talking of none-amp and none-hf'able bosses. Have you even been in nirvana before?

My damage ranges is what I have observed in and out of nirvana on ? bosses, the issue still remains regardless if you believe it not.

Xainou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Ergh, I'd have looked it up myself but pwcalc seems down atm. So here's a question for the smart guys.

My sins a sage, she's gonna have her r8 at 100, along with TT99 boots/sleeves, TT99 ornaments, interval cape and nirvana pants are in the making. I'm not sure at which aps that would put me atm. b:surrender

The question I've been pondering a lot is whether to get nirvana G13 daggers or to stick with the r8 ones. I'll most likely not get an interval tome for a long time if ever.
Any advice guys?

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ergh, I'd have looked it up myself but pwcalc seems down atm. So here's a question for the smart guys.

My sins a sage, she's gonna have her r8 at 100, along with TT99 boots/sleeves, TT99 ornaments, interval cape and nirvana pants are in the making. I'm not sure at which aps that would put me atm. b:surrender

If the only piece of -interval you're missing is a tome, then you'd be 2.5 aps with R8.

The question I've been pondering a lot is whether to get nirvana G13 daggers or to stick with the r8 ones. I'll most likely not get an interval tome for a long time if ever.
Any advice guys?

Personally, I was originally going to get R8 +10 instead of getting a G13 at all. However, I decided to go G13 for the chi gain. I haven't regretted it at all, as now I can actually use Power Dash just about whenever I feel like it, which is a massive boost in DPS. And if I decide not to, I get access to saving my behind with more spark immunity.

I'm currently just technicalities away from getting Pan Gu, Creator, which would put me at 4.0 base on G13 or 2.86 on R8. Both of them are +6, R8 with 2 Immaculates and the G13 with one. I do carry the R8 around for whenever I AoE, because the DPH is just that much bigger.

But really, there is no such thing as choosing between R8 and G13. It's more like choosing between either R8 +10 and a plain G13, or R8 with tome against G13 without tome. And a lot of it is a question of preference: G13 has higher DPS potential and more chi gain, but costs more, R8 has better DPH and costs much less.

Personally, when I was 2.5 R8, it was annoying to have to use chi skills to maintain my spark, plus I only got to use my Sage Power Dash whenever my Inner Harmony happened to yield 3 sparks instead of 2. And since I upgraded to G13, my DPS has changed about ~5%, but the chi gain alone has allowed me to do things I wasn't able to do with the R8, such as soloing Seat of Torment and Blackhole, charmed as I am, plus better survival against Snakefist.

sachelfunlol · February 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ergh, I'd have looked it up myself but pwcalc seems down atm. So here's a question for the smart guys.

My sins a sage, she's gonna have her r8 at 100, along with TT99 boots/sleeves, TT99 ornaments, interval cape and nirvana pants are in the making. I'm not sure at which aps that would put me atm. b:surrender

The question I've been pondering a lot is whether to get nirvana G13 daggers or to stick with the r8 ones. I'll most likely not get an interval tome for a long time if ever.
Any advice guys?

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1182861

That is the interval guide

Xainou - Sanctuary · February 2012

I see. Thanks Olba

So I'll just go on saving all raptures I can get and get the nirvana daggers when I'm there. The chi gain surely sounds nice and since I'm getting r8 anyway for the top, I might as well refine the r8 daggers a little and keep them for situations when I need to hit hard

@sachelfunlol That's actually a pretty decent guide. Thanks for the link. I'm just the kind of person that needs to play around and experiment to understand things. So pwcalc makes it a lot easier for me. b:surrender

Syndey - Archosaur · February 2012

Dinya - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol well no way my sin have almost her r9 daggers 4aps with garnet gems ofc b:dirty

hey who are you in pwi i want to add you as a friend

sachelfunlol · February 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I see. Thanks Olba
So I'll just go on saving all raptures I can get and get the nirvana daggers when I'm there. The chi gain surely sounds nice and since I'm getting r8 anyway for the top, I might as well refine the r8 daggers a little and keep them for situations when I need to hit hard

@sachelfunlol That's actually a pretty decent guide. Thanks for the link. I'm just the kind of person that needs to play around and experiment to understand things. So pwcalc makes it a lot easier for me. b:surrender

b:victory

Dinya - Sanctuary · February 2012

Syndey - Archosaur wrote: »

hey who are you in pwi i want to add you as a friend

We aren't on same server :S

Brony - Raging Tide · February 2012

Once the expansion's been out for a few months, and the PvE G15 daggers become obtainable, I have a feeling G13 vanas will become obsolete.

Dinya - Sanctuary · February 2012

Brony - Raging Tide wrote: »

Once the expansion's been out for a few months, and the PvE G15 daggers become obtainable, I have a feeling G13 vanas will become obsolete.

They. Will not be obsolete. It's the cheaper way to be 5aps sparked
And with the new g15 pve u'll be only 3.33 aps that suxx

Salari - Raging Tide · February 2012

Dinya - Sanctuary wrote: »

They. Will not be obsolete. It's the cheaper way to be 5aps sparked
And with the new g15 pve u'll be only 3.33 aps that suxx

I think it sucking is relative to one's play style, the G15's will out dd the nirvana's G13's. They will probaly not replace nirvana daggers, but new farming sin's will probaly end up using the new G15's rather the more costly Nirvana's.

Brony - Raging Tide · February 2012

Well with a tome you can get 4.0 sparked with the new g15 daggers.

I know they will not out damage R9 daggers, but since I do have R9, I know how strong 4aps can be with those extra attack levels.

If the weapons are incorrectly labeled on PWD (meaning it has 60 slayer levels, not warding), then 60 warding levels at g15, even with the low base attack, would out dd g13 by a while. I mean, that's just my assumption. I can't say anything until I get them.

It'll be a more fair video to test than my G13 +10 vs R9 +12. XD

Salari - Raging Tide · February 2012

Brony - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well with a tome you can get 4.0 sparked with the new g15 daggers.

I know they will not out damage R9 daggers, but since I do have R9, I know how strong 4aps can be with those extra attack levels.

If the weapons are incorrectly labeled on PWD (meaning it has 60 slayer levels, not warding), then 60 warding levels at g15, even with the low base attack, would out dd g13 by a while. I mean, that's just my assumption. I can't say anything until I get them.

It'll be a more fair video to test than my G13 +10 vs R9 +12. XD

Yes i think the g12's will be close to the dmg output of g13 nirv exceeding?, just not sure but it will be close, the g13's may exceed g13 nirv, with the new 15's I think they will run with g15'nirvana's, but will be hard to tell until one gets them and can do tests. We know the refine rates so we can get a general idea of what they can do, just wont know for sure till testing can be done. i am dying to get the 13's now for testing.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

I think it sucking is relative to one's play style, the G15's will out dd the nirvana's G13's. They will probaly not replace nirvana daggers, but new farming sin's will probaly end up using the new G15's rather the more costly Nirvana's.

Not likely.

The community we have in-game does not give a **** about your actual DPS, only your APS. This is very evident when people tell R9 +12 Sages like Empu that they fail for being Sage, or when people only ask for 5 aps. And most people have gotten the G13 solely to get into those squads, e.g. for the -interval.

So just because those G15s probably end up having higher DPS than G13 Nirvana does not mean people will opt for those instead. For one, you have to farm the Morai daggers, you cannot merchant them, unlike you can every single other piece in the game. For two, most people choose their weapon so that it's popular, not so that it's the best option out there.

And even if the damage is better or even comparable, that doesn't mean anything, even in practice. For example, I had the very realistic choice between R8 +10 or G13 +6. On the first look, the R8 has more DPS. However, when you account that the higher APS of the G13 will allow you to use Power Dash more often, the advantage falls quite nicely to the G13s. Also, the G13s would have more upgrade potential, what with going to G15 or simply adding more refines, whereas the R8 +10 is already pretty much maxed out.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · February 2012

From what I can see from testing, the G12 Pixie Pincher with no refine and no shards does an average of ~4-5k less damage per hit than a G13 vana with 2 Garnet Gems and is +10 per hit.

I don't think the G12 daggers will come in close to on par with G13 vanas, but rather the G15 will. I think the G15 PvE dagger will out DD g13 vanas in terms of PvE.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · February 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not likely.

The community we have in-game does not give a **** about your actual DPS, only your APS. This is very evident when people tell R9 +12 Sages like Empu that they fail for being Sage, or when people only ask for 5 aps. And most people have gotten the G13 solely to get into those squads, e.g. for the -interval.

So just because those G15s probably end up having higher DPS than G13 Nirvana does not mean people will opt for those instead. For one, you have to farm the Morai daggers, you cannot merchant them, unlike you can every single other piece in the game. For two, most people choose their weapon so that it's popular, not so that it's the best option out there.

And even if the damage is better or even comparable, that doesn't mean anything, even in practice. For example, I had the very realistic choice between R8 +10 or G13 +6. On the first look, the R8 has more DPS. However, when you account that the higher APS of the G13 will allow you to use Power Dash more often, the advantage falls quite nicely to the G13s. Also, the G13s would have more upgrade potential, what with going to G15 or simply adding more refines, whereas the R8 +10 is already pretty much maxed out.

R8 has the potential to upgrade to recast. Though I have not seen any recast r8 daggers yet on RT (not surprised since there's the influx of nirvy dags already).

R8 recast on my server costs roughly ~300-350m, but takes a while to buy all the mats. Alternatively farming them is an option as well, if you're in a decent enough faction.

But in the end I think G15 nirvy dags are the most versatile end-game weapon in the game.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Brony - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well with a tome you can get 4.0 sparked with the new g15 daggers.

I know they will not out damage R9 daggers, but since I do have R9, I know how strong 4aps can be with those extra attack levels.

If the weapons are incorrectly labeled on PWD (meaning it has 60 slayer levels, not warding), then 60 warding levels at g15, even with the low base attack, would out dd g13 by a while. I mean, that's just my assumption. I can't say anything until I get them.

It'll be a more fair video to test than my G13 +10 vs R9 +12. XD

Skai posting alt?

Anyways, if you look up the Blades of Bloodlust: Sky in the pw encyclopedia and then click "attributes" it shows the fixed attribute as being "slaying". No -int option on the random attributes. They also don't refine as well as G15 Nirvana or R9, I believe. But where R9 daggers have GoF to give them their higher average dps, the Bloodlusts might have a higher average attack with no real spike dmg. We were discussing how slaying levels and attack levels almost seem to multiply each other in another thread, so if 60 slaying levels is a 50% increase in dmg and you already have 50 attack levels elsewhere it'd be roughly a 2.25 increase (1.5 x 1.5). I don't think it'd out DD r9 or even Nirvana G15 but still, pretty awesome.

As for sage, I think survivability has to come into play and even if you are looking at R9s dps at 2.86 going from 2.86 to 4.0 is a 40% jump in attack rate, sparkability, and easy of skill use. Yah, G13s are lower dps but you'll spark more often, not really on Go which damagesf both you and the mob, be able to spark resist and spark heal more... It honestly is a toss up to me of which I'd prefer on a sage sin even before considering costs, but 1.2b vs 200m...

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

R8 has the potential to upgrade to recast. Though I have not seen any recast r8 daggers yet on RT (not surprised since there's the influx of nirvy dags already).

R8 recast on my server costs roughly ~300-350m, but takes a while to buy all the mats. Alternatively farming them is an option as well, if you're in a decent enough faction.

But in the end I think G15 nirvy dags are the most versatile end-game weapon in the game.

The R8 recast, huh? I was considering it when it first came out, but I was turned away by the ridiculous prices to even recast the weapon, much less getting something good on it and to max out those good stats, as that would've cost me more than getting a +10 G13 Nirvana with a Garnet Gem in it. And the chi gain, for a Sage such as myself, would mean that the G13 would also out-DPS the R8 recast.

Of course, in terms of both cost and DPS, the R8 recast is somewhere between G13 and G15 Nirvana. For Demons, anyway. I am fairly certain that the ~40% DPS gain from the -0.1 interval on G13 puts it ahead of the R8 recast for Sages, same can obviously be said of the G15.

It's a funny thing, the top three daggers in PWI are all shunned because of their ridiculous costs. The top of the barrel being recast R9. Right behind it comes recast R8, assuming that you somehow manage to land GoF with at least one -0.05 for Demons and 2x for Sages, with the third slot being G15 Nirvana with the mythical GoF/-0.05/+130 max and GoF/-0.05/-0.05 adds. After that, you got regular R9, then G13 Nirvana and finally R8.

As for sage, I think survivability has to come into play and even if you are looking at R9s dps at 2.86 going from 2.86 to 4.0 is a 40% jump in attack rate, sparkability, and easy of skill use. Yah, G13s are lower dps but you'll spark more often, not really on Go which damagesf both you and the mob, be able to spark resist and spark heal more... It honestly is a toss up to me of which I'd prefer on a sage sin even before considering costs, but 1.2b vs 200m...

For Sages, the -interval is key. For example, almost any G15 Nirvana (except 3-4% crit) with 2x -0.05 interval turns out superior than regular R9.

One of the things that makes all these DPS calculations kinda bogus is that none of them include skill usage. For example, at 3.33+ APS, you can use Power Dash pretty freely, which puts anything that reaches that APS into a whole different league than anything that doesn't. Of course, for Demons this really isn't a concern since pretty much everything is 4.0 or higher, but for Sages it's not, since R9, R8 and this new Morai stuff is all maxed at 2.86.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

The R8 recast, huh? I was considering it when it first came out, but I was turned away by the ridiculous prices to even recast the weapon, much less getting something good on it and to max out those good stats, as that would've cost me more than getting a +10 G13 Nirvana with a Garnet Gem in it. And the chi gain, for a Sage such as myself, would mean that the G13 would also out-DPS the R8 recast.

Of course, in terms of both cost and DPS, the R8 recast is somewhere between G13 and G15 Nirvana. For Demons, anyway. I am fairly certain that the ~40% DPS gain from the -0.1 interval on G13 puts it ahead of the R8 recast for Sages, same can obviously be said of the G15.

It's a funny thing, the top three daggers in PWI are all shunned because of their ridiculous costs. The top of the barrel being recast R9. Right behind it comes recast R8, assuming that you somehow manage to land GoF with at least one -0.05 for Demons and 2x for Sages, with the third slot being G15 Nirvana with the mythical GoF/-0.05/+130 max and GoF/-0.05/-0.05 adds. After that, you got regular R9, then G13 Nirvana and finally R8.

I would prefer a -int add on my daggers over a sac strike/GoF add, and with the .39% (.13% in 3 slots) odds of getting -int on rank 8 recast I'd probably consider their predicted cost above r9 but well below r9 recast. That's why I preferred G15. Lower chance of GoF (2.5%) but 26 times more the odds of getting -int.

And with the 5 aps "5%" nerf, can we switch the order of G13 and Rank 8 at the end there?

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would prefer a -int add on my daggers over a sac strike/GoF add, and with the .39% (.13% in 3 slots) odds of getting -int on rank 8 recast I'd probably consider their predicted cost above r9 but well below r9 recast. That's why I preferred G15. Lower chance of GoF (2.5%) but 26 times more the odds of getting -int.

And with the 5 aps "5%" nerf, can we switch the order of G13 and Rank 8 at the end there?

Getting -interval with GoF on R8 recast does put it way above R9 cost. Most good sets for G15 Nirvana also put it ahead of R9.

No, we cannot switch them. The 5% nerf also applies to 4.0 APS. And if we were talking about Sages, then Power Dash puts G13 way ahead of R8. I would know, I switched from 2.5 R8 to 3.33 G13 and I'm still only able to Power Dash consistently whenever I use Windshield.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

The 5% nerf also applies to 4.0 APS.

Did I miss something? I thought it was only when we where 5 aps that it recieves the reduction, not 4 aps.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Did I miss something? I thought it was only when we where 5 aps that it recieves the reduction, not 4 aps.

Asterelle tested it and it showed a ~5% reduction when going from 3.33 to 4.0.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · February 2012

Totally forgot about the minuscule chance of -int on r8 recast.

And yeah forgot to switch chars lol.

I also haven't really noticed much difference at all with the "nerf" on r9 daggers. I still kill all FC bosses in exactly 1 spark, sometimes before spark even ends. Did that before this expansion, and after.

I just wonder what this patch has in store for us. It'll be a huge let down if it's just "localization changes"

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I just wonder what this patch has in store for us. It'll be a huge let down if it's just "localization changes"

I think its just clean up of issues from the last patch. They admitted to knowing about several of them on their test servers prior to release. Also, as much as PW lets us down Frankie seems to lean towards service and I ~hope~ they put it off for a day to fix the glitch causing us to not be able to recieve items (DQs, Jones, Descent reward)

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Asterelle tested it and it showed a ~5% reduction when going from 3.33 to 4.0.

Asterelle is one smart cookie, but he's not always right. Average damage has a pretty big error ratio, depending on how it was tested. Actually, last I saw he was in a thread where people where talking about almost never missing and how there was no dph difference between 2.86 and 5.0. Got a link where he said this?

Smokesalot - Heavens Tear · February 2012

no one cares about your aps
fix blessng ty
oh to all the responces after me - blow me

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Asterelle is one smart cookie, but he's not always right. Average damage has a pretty big error ratio, depending on how it was tested. Actually, last I saw he was in a thread where people where talking about almost never missing and how there was no dph difference between 2.86 and 5.0. Got a link where he said this?

Asterelle used unarmed autoattacking on a Tideborn Traitor. The post is right here. As you can see, everything on the char screen that factors into DPH is identical, but somehow the DPH still changes. With no variance due to being unarmed, there's no other explanation.

ICasTBiDS - Raging Tide · February 2012

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

Where does this so called 25% dmg increase come from 4 to 5. My G13's at +10 with 2 +75's barely out dps my r8's at +11 with 2 x+75's, the only reason I changed was for skill usage. The spike dmg on G13's cant even compare to the R8's either.

ive seen your gear, you dont have a +11 r8 weapon or +10 g13.

Salari - Raging Tide · February 2012

ICasTBiDS - Raging Tide wrote: »

ive seen your gear, you dont have a +11 r8 weapon or +10 g13.

I might have had a different set of daggers on when you saw me. I have had the r8's at +11 since the one day +11/+12 orb sale, was just lucky enough to get one while it lasted. My suvivabilty issue in nirvana very well could be the lack of a omally's blessing, but the lower than normal damage there(aside the 5% nerf) i can only attribute to maybe the bosses having a bit better defenses than before. I never had a problem like this in nirvana even on none hf/ampable bosses. So at a loss, but I wont loose sleep over it

nirvana http://imgur.com/Ahp1P
R8 http://imgur.com/fF3tp

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2012

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

I might have had a different set of daggers on when you saw me. I have had the r8's at +11 since the one day +11/+12 orb sale, was just lucky enough to get one while it lasted. My suvivabilty issue in nirvana very well could be the lack of a omally's blessing, but the lower than normal damage there(aside the 5% nerf) i can only attribute to maybe the bosses having a bit better defenses than before. I never had a problem like this in nirvana even on none hf/ampable bosses. So at a loss, but I wont loose sleep over it

nirvana http://imgur.com/Ahp1P
R8 http://imgur.com/fF3tp

So you have a pair of weapons that cost a total of somewhere around 400m coins and yet you cannot even be bothered to spend 30m on refining your armors?

Great job there.

b:cute

Salari - Raging Tide · February 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

So you have a pair of weapons that cost a total of somewhere around 400m coins and yet you cannot even be bothered to spend 30m on refining your armors?

Great job there.

b:cute

I deserve that b:surrender
I got into the massive damage mindset before paying attention to my suvivabilty and I am paying for it on my farmablity to a point. Any skill use mobs in TT for example say like GBA I cant even kill outside of a squad because I cant take 2 hits from him while casting BP after a purge, or if I get stunned. I actualy had better hp at one time before I replaced hp shards in most of my gear with DoT's and could solo a full pull in ffc exp room with my R8's chilled. So yes I do deserve your comment. Thank you for keeping it kind. I try to make up for it telling new sins and any class for that matter I encounter in and out of my guild to work on defense before offense. The month of 2x paid for all the extremeties of armor and refines on weapons. I wish I could redo that, but I cant, all I can do is learn from my mistake and hopefully make sure no one makes the same. I am slowly working on coins for better refines.

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